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Re: [cincarm] Re: Secular Carmelite Bill of Rights

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  • Juan Luis Faustmann
    Well said Fr. Payne.......... ... -- new email address tatofaust@gmail.com
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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      Well said Fr. Payne..........

      On 01/12/06, Steven Payne <spayneocd@...> wrote:

      Dear JAJ and all,

      You may be reading too much into my simple comment. I don't presume to
      tell the Secular Carmelites what's best for them, and in fact I'm pretty
      much "out of the loop" over here in Africa. I was just responding to
      what I thought (perhaps wrongly) was being implied or assumed in the
      original post, namely, that if the Generalate doesn't come up with a
      "Secular Carmelite Bill of Rights" articulating rights "already
      preserved" in canon law, that this means the Generalate is somehow not
      truly committed to preserving those rights. To me that's a bit like
      arguing that the individual states in the USA aren't really committed to
      the rights enshrined in our nation's Bill of Rights unless each state
      comes up with its own individual "Bill of Rights." I don't see how it follows.

      But clearly my question in no way suggests that the (hopefully rare)
      problem of Secular Carmelite rights being abused should be left
      "unfixed." The
      issue is, rather, what's the most effective way to fix it. CINCARMers
      have mentioned abusive situations where they weren't made aware of their
      rights under canon law. But judging from what Elizabeth Korves says,
      even enshrining a "bill of rights" in the OCDS Constitutions and
      Statutes wouldn't necessarily guarantee that all OCDS would read and
      understand them. Even with a "Bill of Rights", would it not still be
      relatively easy for abusive leadership to convince especially the new
      vocations that obedience means not pursuing possible appeals of their decisions?

      JAJ wrote: "May I ask, could you reassure me that you do feel some
      responsibility in this difficult moment in Church history, to work
      together to make canonical rights more known and understood." I'm a
      little surprised such reassurance would even be needed, since I've
      spent my life trying to help people know as much about the church's
      teaching, tradition, and discipline as possible. And please understand,
      I'm not opposing to a Secular Carmelite "Bill of Rights." (Not that my
      opinion would carry any weight anyway!) If people think it would really
      help, I'd say "go for it." I'm
      just not sure that it will be particularly effective as a solution to
      what I hope are rare instances of abusive leadership. As indicated, what
      would probably be more effective in the long run is to have good
      leadership training and to insure that people know what rights are
      already guaranteed them under canon law.

      Fraternally,
      Fr. Steven Payne, OCD

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    • Mary McCurry
      Hello CinCarms, I know this list is for the Carmelite OCDS community and there is an abundance of wonderful writings from the Carmelite saints of today and
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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        Hello CinCarms,

        I know this list is for the Carmelite OCDS
        community and there is an abundance of wonderful writings
        from the Carmelite saints of today and yesterday to draw
        from. But today, I received a copy of a memorial minute
        (like a well reflected obituary) of a dear F/friend and
        member of my former faith community. In it was a quote from
        another favorite Friend/Quaker of this past last century.
        Reading it again reminds me of what it must be to be a
        Secular Carmelite. It would seem that Carmelite could just
        as easily be substituted here for Quaker. Try it and see
        if it fits. I hope quoting this here does not cause
        offense. I remain open to criticism and guidance.

        '"Thomas Kelly once described Quaker spirituality as living
        on two levels simultaneously. As he wrote in his book, A
        Testament of Devotion: "On one level we may be thinking,
        discussing, seeing, calculating, meeting all the demands of
        external affairs. But deep within, behind the scenes, at a
        profounder level, we may also be in prayer and adoration,
        song and worship and a gentle receptiveness to divine
        breathings…. Between the two levels is fruitful interplay,
        but ever the accent must be upon the deeper level, where
        the soul ever dwells in the presence of the Holy One." '"

        The past few days have truly been joyous, watching the
        visit of the Holy Father in Turkey and falling more deeply
        in love with our Holy Catholic Church. The mercy of the
        Lord is bountiful and His peace ever attainable.

        May we become the bearers of His bounty,


        Mary McCurry
        Pacifica CA USA

        Each click to below URL helps feed God's creatures in need:

        http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
      • Mary McCurry
        EWTN GLOBAL SHOWCASE JOHN OF THE CROSS (60:00) (1hour) A film biography on the life of St. John of the Cross from Leonardo Defilippis of St. Luke Productions.
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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          EWTN GLOBAL SHOWCASE
          JOHN OF THE CROSS (60:00) (1hour)

          A film biography on the life of St. John of the Cross from
          Leonardo Defilippis of St. Luke Productions.

          Thursday December 14, 11:00 PM Eastern Time
          Thursday December 14, 8:00 PM Pacific Time







          Mary McCurry
          Pacifica CA USA

          Each click to below URL helps feed God's creatures in need:

          http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
        • jaj_2211
          Dear all and Fr. Payne I have more to say and ask about this topic on Secular Rights but I sense that it is somewhat of a hot topic . I look at it sort of
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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            Dear all and Fr. Payne

            I have more to say and ask about this topic on Secular Rights but I
            sense that it is somewhat of a "hot topic".

            I look at it sort of like map making, an exciting adventure. Mapping
            the behavior boundaries in the ecclesial world, does seem to be a
            good thing to me. When ever this topic comes up what I observe is
            that individuals often will want to not discuss the objective issues
            related to the map but the weather in the harbor, pirates on the seas
            and monsters under the water and how perhaps we out not sail out to
            the sea of dispute resolution and leave the safe harbor we live in. I
            am interested in objective dimensions of the "Holy Land", "Greenland"
            of dispute resolution and compass points. Admittedly the weather mood
            does play a part in any actual voyage. But good maps are needed and I
            have been taught and encouraged by the Church that weather is not
            relevant to such maps.

            Because open discussion on this topic seems to be treated with benign
            neglect in may areas of Carmel and sometimes overtly uninvited,
            unlike this list's acceptance, which I am grateful for, what some
            are discussing privately is the creation of a web site. This will be
            a passive approach that will require one to visit the site and search
            for information on this and other related topics. The proposal will
            give referrals to successful grievants that will hand hold and mentor
            one through any dispute resolution process. Forms will be made
            available to show one how to preserve matters. It would be practical
            in approach and not academic. The Passive approach would eliminate
            offending the sensitivity of some who feel that dispute resolution is
            contrary to Holiness or other ideals. Those offended just need not
            visit and those in need can visit and get help.

            Because of the good points made and issue raised by Fr Payne, and in
            order to better inform the order some I understand are now proposing
            a blog opinion poll making inquiry on the very topic Fr Payne
            expressed hope about and that is "hopefully rare problem of Secular
            Order Rights" . There is now Hope that one can take it out of the
            dimension of "Speculation", a matter that is not well understood and
            to a certain degree unknown. All to avoid further speculation on the
            condition in the order and instead make it known to the friars the
            state of the order in this regard. Of course it will be self
            reporting and open to some abuse but it is a beginning.

            If I were invited to say more I would point out that, I am truly
            inquisitive in mapping the mind of Christ in this area. I am only
            interested in turning the lights on and not generating heat. I sense
            that some would prefer to discuss another topic like leadership. I
            think that is good and needed. Another topic is slightly different
            and that is education/formation. That is good and needed. But the
            topic that is not being squarely met that I feel others need
            assistance on is dispute resolution.

            Let me frame the issue: "When two equally well intentioned
            individuals of equal good will disagree and have a dispute, what is
            the mind of Christ in resolving this matter. " Assume they have had
            the best training, assume they are the best educated, so education
            and training are not an issue in this scenario.

            May I say more, and also recall that even Peter and Paul had
            disputes. Secular Rights need not be imaged as a cat fight. Assume
            hypothetically the provincial of Washington DC has well established
            geographical boundaries of the Province. Just assume and I take this
            as an example only and any relationship to real life situation should
            not be assumed, assume that the Polish provinces under a past Pope
            began a world wide expansion and in Chicago a Polish Province
            presence was established. Chicago is in the Washington DC province
            for those not familiar. Assume further that the Washington DC
            province is challenged in making it province tax to the Generalate
            and can not meet the needs of the Cardinal for teachers due to lack
            of vocations. Assume that the Polish friars are popular in Chicago
            and work in Chicago schools for the Cardinal. Now assume that the
            Polish friars want to expand their influence and presence in and
            around Chicago making further foundations, and they have very little
            overhead since they have no large Holy Hills to finance. Are the
            Polish friars trespassers or invitees in a foreign province? Should
            the presence of the Polish friars be allowed to expand at the expense
            of the Washington DC friars who in this scenario such expense would
            be financial as well as spiritual. How does one evaluate and what
            process used to solve this issue. Should the ocds be allowed a
            position paper on the matter to be given to both the General and the
            Cardinal either in support of a proposition that no new Polish
            foundations can be made in Chicago or against it. What if a wealthy
            OCDS member would solve the problem with a huge donation should that
            be allowed so that all parties are happy. Assume that the Cardinal is
            very happy with the Polish presence and wants to expand it. Is this a
            family matter for Carmel or a private matter for Provincials and the
            Cardinal. What rights of seculars are involved? What if your child
            was being taught in a catholic school by a polish friar, and he may
            be removed next year because of the pending ruling of Fr General.
            Would that change your opinion? Would you want input? Does this
            matter fall under the mantle of our vocation to participate and
            sanctify the world. If it is a legitimate area of ocds presence can
            one forbear and not get involved. Just because something is
            legitimate does not mean I have to get involved right? What process
            is available in the Church to resolve this dispute and what part
            would the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated life play. I
            feel many would want to know the answer to these questions.

            God Bless J
          • Mary Lanser
            ... Dear ones, This passive approach is a fraud. It is no more passive or harmless than benign neglect is passive or harmless. This extern approach sets
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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              On 12/6/06, jaj_2211 <jaj_2211@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear all and Fr. Payne
              >
              > I have more to say and ask about this topic on Secular Rights but I
              > sense that it is somewhat of a "hot topic".
              >
              > Because open discussion on this topic seems to be treated with benign
              > neglect in may areas of Carmel and sometimes overtly uninvited,
              > unlike this list's acceptance, which I am grateful for, what some
              > are discussing privately is the creation of a web site. This will be
              > a passive approach that will require one to visit the site and search
              > for information on this and other related topics. The proposal will
              > give referrals to successful grievants that will hand hold and mentor
              > one through any dispute resolution process. Forms will be made
              > available to show one how to preserve matters. It would be practical
              > in approach and not academic. The Passive approach would eliminate
              > offending the sensitivity of some who feel that dispute resolution is
              > contrary to Holiness or other ideals. Those offended just need not
              > visit and those in need can visit and get help.
              >

              Dear ones,

              This "passive" approach is a fraud. It is no more "passive" or
              harmless than benign neglect is passive or harmless. This extern
              approach sets up an illegitimate order outside the order. That is not
              what we are called to. We are called to obedience to legitimate
              authority in all things but sin.

              For matter of abuses of authority and the power that attends, there
              must be a legitimate authority within the order to address these
              matters and once that authority is invoked and run its course then we
              are still left with obedience.

              In the hearts of Jesus and Mary, with the power of the Holy Spirit.

              mary
            • jaj_2211
              Dear all: Here is a suggested template that would be an expression of the fundamental right of Free Expression or Free Speech used legitimately. We are
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                Dear all: Here is a suggested template that would be an expression of
                the fundamental right of Free Expression or Free Speech used
                legitimately. We are attempting to stick to the fact scenario
                previously discussed.

                Polish Friar Presence in Chicago:

                Dear Fr. General:

                We the undersigned are members of both the Family of Carmel and the
                Carmelite Order. Some of us are professed OCDS and members of the
                Order, some of us are Brown Scapular wearers and members of the
                Family.

                We urge you in any decision you make to consider the following
                matters.

                1. In balancing the rights of the Polish friars to start new
                foundations and the integrity of the Washington DC friars to preserve
                the integrity of their presence please also consider the needs of our
                children that attend schools in the Chicago area.

                2. Consider the history of North America and the past presence
                of friars immigrating from Germany, Ireland and Italy all attempting
                to make Carmel's values better known and understood.

                3. Consider the needs of Carmel in expanding the influence of
                the order upon the hearts and minds of those youth in America that
                admittedly are in need of greater pastoral and catechetical
                attention. One need only look at Humane Vita as an example of needed
                attention.

                4. Consider allowing us to fund raise for the friars if indeed
                finances fit into this picture.

                Respectfully yours in Christ,

                //s// several signatures:

                Comments:

                1. Is there anything in this letter that should arouse contempt
                or concern on the part of any ocds council?
                2. Is this expression of a fundamental right of free speech with
                in the domain of ocds council regulation?
                3. Should this letter be pre-approved by each and every council
                represented by the signatories?
                4. Should the signers make it known they are only seeking to
                establish their standing and relevance by stating their affiliation
                with Carmel and not speaking on behalf of Carmel, or is it clear from
                the content and circumstances that this is indeed a matter of private
                concern and they have no authority to speak on behalf of the order.
                4.(a) Should anyone be punished or censored for such a letter because
                they did not get pre-approval of the council.
                5. Is their canonical distinction between the Fundamental rights
                of free speech the absolute right to free speech? I mean we all agree
                free speech does not allow any catholic theologian to teach "Mary" is
                4th person of the Trinity. There seems to be a legitimate use of Free
                speech termed legal fundamental right and an abuse of free speech
                much like one has a right to travel/fly but can abuse that the legal
                right to fly by breaking the law of gravity by jumping off a cliff
                versus boarding an airplane. The contexts of the rights we are
                discussing are "Lawful rights".

                God Bless J
              • susie spanier
                Dear jaj2211 Without knowing the specific problem you have encountered in your community we can only read between the lines in your messages- what seems to
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                  Dear jaj2211
                  Without knowing the specific problem you have encountered in your community we can only read between the lines in your messages- what seems to have happened is a abuse, or dispute of some sort occured in your community.
                   
                   It would be my understanding of the secular orders government that the steps you would need to take would be to contact your Provincial delegate for him to present the dispute to  the the Provincial Council of your province.
                   
                  It sounds like you or your community have done this and you aren't in agreement with the Provincial Councils decision therefore you want to know how you can go about "appealing" the decision by going over the Provincial council?
                   
                  In one of the other replies someone said the bottom line is obedience. Many times we don't know all the reasons WHY  a decision (we don't agree with) has been made but must trust  that those chosen to be on the Provincial council have access to information,  experience and wisdom  that we may not know about, that went into making a decision that is best for the community.
                   
                  I believe you will find the peace you are looking for in that obedience rather than going off to another website and talking about it.
                   
                  Wishing you a Blessed Advent,
                  Susie ocds
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: jaj_2211
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 8:46 AM
                  Subject: [cincarm] Re: Secular Carmelite Bill of Rights - Maps

                  Dear all and Fr. Payne

                  I have more to say and ask about this topic on Secular Rights but I
                  sense that it is somewhat of a "hot topic".

                  I look at it sort of like map making, an exciting adventure. Mapping
                  the behavior boundaries in the ecclesial world, does seem to be a
                  good thing to me. When ever this topic comes up what I observe is
                  that individuals often will want to not discuss the objective issues
                  related to the map but the weather in the harbor, pirates on the seas
                  and monsters under the water and how perhaps we out not sail out to
                  the sea of dispute resolution and leave the safe harbor we live in. I
                  am interested in objective dimensions of the "Holy Land", "Greenland"
                  of dispute resolution and compass points. Admittedly the weather mood
                  does play a part in any actual voyage. But good maps are needed and I
                  have been taught and encouraged by the Church that weather is not
                  relevant to such maps.

                  Because open discussion on this topic seems to be treated with benign
                  neglect in may areas of Carmel and sometimes overtly uninvited,
                  unlike this list's acceptance, which I am grateful for, what some
                  are discussing privately is the creation of a web site. This will be
                  a passive approach that will require one to visit the site and search
                  for information on this and other related topics. The proposal will
                  give referrals to successful grievants that will hand hold and mentor
                  one through any dispute resolution process. Forms will be made
                  available to show one how to preserve matters. It would be practical
                  in approach and not academic. The Passive approach would eliminate
                  offending the sensitivity of some who feel that dispute resolution is
                  contrary to Holiness or other ideals. Those offended just need not
                  visit and those in need can visit and get help.

                  Because of the good points made and issue raised by Fr Payne, and in
                  order to better inform the order some I understand are now proposing
                  a blog opinion poll making inquiry on the very topic Fr Payne
                  expressed hope about and that is "hopefully rare problem of Secular
                  Order Rights" . There is now Hope that one can take it out of the
                  dimension of "Speculation" , a matter that is not well understood and
                  to a certain degree unknown. All to avoid further speculation on the
                  condition in the order and instead make it known to the friars the
                  state of the order in this regard. Of course it will be self
                  reporting and open to some abuse but it is a beginning.

                  If I were invited to say more I would point out that, I am truly
                  inquisitive in mapping the mind of Christ in this area. I am only
                  interested in turning the lights on and not generating heat. I sense
                  that some would prefer to discuss another topic like leadership. I
                  think that is good and needed. Another topic is slightly different
                  and that is education/formation . That is good and needed. But the
                  topic that is not being squarely met that I feel others need
                  assistance on is dispute resolution.

                  Let me frame the issue: "When two equally well intentioned
                  individuals of equal good will disagree and have a dispute, what is
                  the mind of Christ in resolving this matter. " Assume they have had
                  the best training, assume they are the best educated, so education
                  and training are not an issue in this scenario.

                  May I say more, and also recall that even Peter and Paul had
                  disputes. Secular Rights need not be imaged as a cat fight. Assume
                  hypothetically the provincial of Washington DC has well established
                  geographical boundaries of the Province. Just assume and I take this
                  as an example only and any relationship to real life situation should
                  not be assumed, assume that the Polish provinces under a past Pope
                  began a world wide expansion and in Chicago a Polish Province
                  presence was established. Chicago is in the Washington DC province
                  for those not familiar. Assume further that the Washington DC
                  province is challenged in making it province tax to the Generalate
                  and can not meet the needs of the Cardinal for teachers due to lack
                  of vocations. Assume that the Polish friars are popular in Chicago
                  and work in Chicago schools for the Cardinal. Now assume that the
                  Polish friars want to expand their influence and presence in and
                  around Chicago making further foundations, and they have very little
                  overhead since they have no large Holy Hills to finance. Are the
                  Polish friars trespassers or invitees in a foreign province? Should
                  the presence of the Polish friars be allowed to expand at the expense
                  of the Washington DC friars who in this scenario such expense would
                  be financial as well as spiritual. How does one evaluate and what
                  process used to solve this issue. Should the ocds be allowed a
                  position paper on the matter to be given to both the General and the
                  Cardinal either in support of a proposition that no new Polish
                  foundations can be made in Chicago or against it. What if a wealthy
                  OCDS member would solve the problem with a huge donation should that
                  be allowed so that all parties are happy. Assume that the Cardinal is
                  very happy with the Polish presence and wants to expand it. Is this a
                  family matter for Carmel or a private matter for Provincials and the
                  Cardinal. What rights of seculars are involved? What if your child
                  was being taught in a catholic school by a polish friar, and he may
                  be removed next year because of the pending ruling of Fr General.
                  Would that change your opinion? Would you want input? Does this
                  matter fall under the mantle of our vocation to participate and
                  sanctify the world. If it is a legitimate area of ocds presence can
                  one forbear and not get involved. Just because something is
                  legitimate does not mean I have to get involved right? What process
                  is available in the Church to resolve this dispute and what part
                  would the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated life play. I
                  feel many would want to know the answer to these questions.

                  God Bless J

                • jaj_2211
                  To avoid confusion and be certain that the look and feel on any eventual web site on Carmelite canonical rights and Carmelite greievances are internal to the
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                    To avoid confusion and be certain that the look and feel on any
                    eventual web site on Carmelite canonical rights and Carmelite
                    greievances are internal to the Carmelite Order and not external here
                    is what I propose:

                    1. Statement that This web site is Internal forum only.

                    2. We hope that the use of this site will eliminate or at least
                    lessen the use of an external forum, external to what is sanctioned
                    and liked by the Catholic Church.

                    3. Here are the "How To Forms" In starting your first walk along the
                    legitimat path to dispute resolution with in the Carmelite Order.

                    4. Here are the names and phone numbers of OCDS leaders that have
                    actually traveled this path before. Contact them they will help you
                    focus your Carmelite concerns. They have been successful in bring
                    light and love to the Carmelite Order, you can to.

                    5. Here is a scanned copy of Carmelite documents supporting this
                    effort, including statements by the Friars Constitutions. This would
                    bespecific to any particular grievance Ie, vocations, apostolates etc.


                    For your convenience Carmelite Defintions:

                    Please click here for the following definitions:

                    1. Decree of Institutes of Consecrated Life, to the Carmelite OCDS
                    Council it's nature and place in the Order of Carmel.


                    2. Carmelite Stay of Action ..what this does.

                    3. Carmelite Petition for reconsideration, what this is.

                    4. Carmelite Themes: "What is bidden by the head be followed by the
                    body:"


                    I hope this eliminates any fear this would be outside the Order of
                    Carmel and outside the Catholic Church. It would certainly be
                    focused on Internal Forum and Carmelite all the way. It would
                    shsowcase what has worked in the past and what has been encouraged
                    before.

                    God Bless J
                  • susie spanier
                    Are you saying you and several members of our community wrote a letter to the Fr General without first bringing it to your local council for discussion and
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                      Are you saying you and several members of our community wrote a letter to the Fr General  without first bringing it to your local council for discussion and prayerful discernment? Your local council has been elected to be the superior of your community-
                       
                      I may be wrong, but it would seem a letter of this sort should come from the council of your community.
                       
                      Peace and joy,
                      Susie ocds
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: jaj_2211
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:58 AM
                      Subject: [cincarm] Re: Secular Carmelite Bill of Rights - Maps - Fr. General Letter template

                      Dear all: Here is a suggested template that would be an expression of
                      the fundamental right of Free Expression or Free Speech used
                      legitimately. We are attempting to stick to the fact scenario
                      previously discussed.

                      Polish Friar Presence in Chicago:

                      Dear Fr. General:

                      We the undersigned are members of both the Family of Carmel and the
                      Carmelite Order. Some of us are professed OCDS and members of the
                      Order, some of us are Brown Scapular wearers and members of the
                      Family.

                      We urge you in any decision you make to consider the following
                      matters.

                      1. In balancing the rights of the Polish friars to start new
                      foundations and the integrity of the Washington DC friars to preserve
                      the integrity of their presence please also consider the needs of our
                      children that attend schools in the Chicago area.

                      2. Consider the history of North America and the past presence
                      of friars immigrating from Germany, Ireland and Italy all attempting
                      to make Carmel's values better known and understood.

                      3. Consider the needs of Carmel in expanding the influence of
                      the order upon the hearts and minds of those youth in America that
                      admittedly are in need of greater pastoral and catechetical
                      attention. One need only look at Humane Vita as an example of needed
                      attention.

                      4. Consider allowing us to fund raise for the friars if indeed
                      finances fit into this picture.

                      Respectfully yours in Christ,

                      //s// several signatures:

                      Comments:

                      1. Is there anything in this letter that should arouse contempt
                      or concern on the part of any ocds council?
                      2. Is this expression of a fundamental right of free speech with
                      in the domain of ocds council regulation?
                      3. Should this letter be pre-approved by each and every council
                      represented by the signatories?
                      4. Should the signers make it known they are only seeking to
                      establish their standing and relevance by stating their affiliation
                      with Carmel and not speaking on behalf of Carmel, or is it clear from
                      the content and circumstances that this is indeed a matter of private
                      concern and they have no authority to speak on behalf of the order.
                      4.(a) Should anyone be punished or censored for such a letter because
                      they did not get pre-approval of the council.
                      5. Is their canonical distinction between the Fundamental rights
                      of free speech the absolute right to free speech? I mean we all agree
                      free speech does not allow any catholic theologian to teach "Mary" is
                      4th person of the Trinity. There seems to be a legitimate use of Free
                      speech termed legal fundamental right and an abuse of free speech
                      much like one has a right to travel/fly but can abuse that the legal
                      right to fly by breaking the law of gravity by jumping off a cliff
                      versus boarding an airplane. The contexts of the rights we are
                      discussing are "Lawful rights".

                      God Bless J

                    • Mary McCurry
                      Hello all, I don t want to get into the fray here as I really am not qualified to do so. I do want to point out something as an observer who doesn t know
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                        Hello all,

                        I don't want to get into the fray here as I really am not
                        qualified to do so. I do want to point out something as an
                        observer who doesn't know anyone here personally nor of any
                        specifics related to any real life situations but just as a
                        reader of CINCARM. I have been reading the posts on this
                        subject and see a consistent pattern of replying not to
                        what has actually been written but to what the replier has
                        read into the post. This is something we all do in our
                        daily communications all too often and makes for many
                        misunderstandings and confusions when not identified. It
                        might be worthwhile for all of us to make a discipline of
                        reading and rereading a post several times, spending some
                        time contemplating the message before replying and replying
                        only to what the author has actually written online and not
                        what might have been said privately or by assumed
                        inference. There is objective truth to be known though
                        getting to it requires diligence, discipline and an
                        openness to hear it in a spirit of good will and charity.


                        Mary McCurry
                        Pacifica CA USA

                        Each click to below URL helps feed God's creatures in need:

                        http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
                      • susie spanier
                        I would think if this proposed website was to be WITHIN the Carmelite Order for Seculars it would need to have Fr Deeny s approval. ... From: jaj_2211 To:
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                          I would think if this  proposed website was to be WITHIN the Carmelite Order for Seculars it would need to have Fr Deeny's approval.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: jaj_2211
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:35 PM
                          Subject: [cincarm] Re: Secular Carmelite Bill of Rights - Maps - Web site proposed look

                          To avoid confusion and be certain that the look and feel on any
                          eventual web site on Carmelite canonical rights and Carmelite
                          greievances are internal to the Carmelite Order and not external here
                          is what I propose:

                          1. Statement that This web site is Internal forum only.

                          2. We hope that the use of this site will eliminate or at least
                          lessen the use of an external forum, external to what is sanctioned
                          and liked by the Catholic Church.

                          3. Here are the "How To Forms" In starting your first walk along the
                          legitimat path to dispute resolution with in the Carmelite Order.

                          4. Here are the names and phone numbers of OCDS leaders that have
                          actually traveled this path before. Contact them they will help you
                          focus your Carmelite concerns. They have been successful in bring
                          light and love to the Carmelite Order, you can to.

                          5. Here is a scanned copy of Carmelite documents supporting this
                          effort, including statements by the Friars Constitutions. This would
                          bespecific to any particular grievance Ie, vocations, apostolates etc.

                          For your convenience Carmelite Defintions:

                          Please click here for the following definitions:

                          1. Decree of Institutes of Consecrated Life, to the Carmelite OCDS
                          Council it's nature and place in the Order of Carmel.

                          2. Carmelite Stay of Action ..what this does.

                          3. Carmelite Petition for reconsideration, what this is.

                          4. Carmelite Themes: "What is bidden by the head be followed by the
                          body:"

                          I hope this eliminates any fear this would be outside the Order of
                          Carmel and outside the Catholic Church. It would certainly be
                          focused on Internal Forum and Carmelite all the way. It would
                          shsowcase what has worked in the past and what has been encouraged
                          before.

                          God Bless J

                        • Mary Lanser
                          If it is not established by the superiors of the order it is not internal to the order, for pity s sake. That does not take rocket science to figure out.
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                            If it is not established by the superiors of the order it is not internal to the order, for pity's sake.   That does not take rocket science to figure out.

                            This is absurd and stupid and illegitimate and wrong...and if you push it, it will become sinful.

                            If you want to start a reformed order, fine.  But have the courage and certitude to do that and don't try to be parasitical to the parent order while subverting its legitimate order.

                            On 12/6/06, jaj_2211 <jaj_2211@...> wrote:

                            To avoid confusion and be certain that the look and feel on any
                            eventual web site on Carmelite canonical rights and Carmelite
                            greievances are internal to the Carmelite Order and not external here
                            is what I propose:

                            1. Statement that This web site is Internal forum only.

                            2. We hope that the use of this site will eliminate or at least
                            lessen the use of an external forum, external to what is sanctioned
                            and liked by the Catholic Church.

                            3. Here are the "How To Forms" In starting your first walk along the
                            legitimat path to dispute resolution with in the Carmelite Order.

                            4. Here are the names and phone numbers of OCDS leaders that have
                            actually traveled this path before. Contact them they will help you
                            focus your Carmelite concerns. They have been successful in bring
                            light and love to the Carmelite Order, you can to.

                            5. Here is a scanned copy of Carmelite documents supporting this
                            effort, including statements by the Friars Constitutions. This would
                            bespecific to any particular grievance Ie, vocations, apostolates etc.

                            For your convenience Carmelite Defintions:

                            Please click here for the following definitions:

                            1. Decree of Institutes of Consecrated Life, to the Carmelite OCDS
                            Council it's nature and place in the Order of Carmel.

                            2. Carmelite Stay of Action ..what this does.

                            3. Carmelite Petition for reconsideration, what this is.

                            4. Carmelite Themes: "What is bidden by the head be followed by the
                            body:"

                            I hope this eliminates any fear this would be outside the Order of
                            Carmel and outside the Catholic Church. It would certainly be
                            focused on Internal Forum and Carmelite all the way. It would
                            shsowcase what has worked in the past and what has been encouraged
                            before.

                            God Bless J




                            --
                            From Irenikon
                            @ 40° 16' 11.28" N, 76° 59' 2.76" W

                            "Praying for people is to shed blood." ~St. Silouan
                          • Lonnie Sorensen
                            JMJT Dear Mary, There is objective truth to be known though getting to it requires diligence, discipline and an openness to hear it in a spirit of good will
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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                              JMJT
                              Dear Mary,

                              "There is objective truth to be known though

                              getting to it requires diligence, discipline and an

                              openness to hear it in a spirit of good will and charity."

                              Thank you! This is an excellent reminder.

                              Susie wrote:

                               >> I would think if this  proposed website was to be WITHIN the Carmelite Order for Seculars it would need to have Fr Deeny's approval. 
                               
                              Dear Susie,
                              a web site about OCDS doesn't have to be approved.  For example, many OCDS communities have their own websites.  A website offers information...like Our Garden of Carmel does.

                               >> 1. Statement that This web site is Internal forum only. 

                              "J" stated the site would be available as a forum....have you ever explored Catholic Answers' forums...they are tremendous.  Check out www.catholic.com for a link.

                               *****
                              4. Here are the names and phone numbers of OCDS leaders that have
                              actually traveled this path before. Contact them they will help you
                              focus your Carmelite concerns. They have been successful in bring
                              light and love to the Carmelite Order, you can to.
                               

                              #4 sounds like a good resource for difficult situations..it may be a way of being guided by "good leaders" who will share their experiences?

                              Dorothy,

                              you wrote:  3.  That this process might (but not always) bypass the "chain of command"/Council -  which may be necessary - if the Council is flagrantly abusing their authority or goes beyond the authority given them by our Constitutions and refuses to listen to reason/common sense?

                              I suspect this would be about issues that already went to the Council and the Provincial...I don't think it is about bypassing them.  You and I may have only been in communities where things run well, but I have heard horror stories about some of the situations which are unjust and are not about obedience.  We are to obey the Council in matters of the statutes or Constitutions but not things beyond their scope or authority.  I have heard wild things demanded by misinformed Councils!!

                              In our Washington Province, however, I think we have to sit patiently while awaiting our statutes and our Provincial Council to be given their responsibilities from the statutes.  This may prevent future difficult situations where members feel they have no recourse.

                              We cannot control people with more apparatus.  There will always be people who will disregard the Constitutions/Statutes/Provincial/Holy See/POPE!  Adding more "law" won't make those people obey or act appropriately.  This is why I suspect the things suggested will not help much.  Perhaps the encouragement from members with experience would help.

                              This reminds me of the "cafeteria" Catholics...they will pick which Commandments they will obey.  So too, we have "cafeteria" Carmelites.  The Church does not have a prison system!  The Holy Father doesn't send Bishops/priests/laity to prison for their sins. 

                              And I am grateful for the freedom we all have to share our ideas, like those of J, with each other.

                              Prayers,

                              Lonnie

                               

                            • jaj_2211
                              Dear friends,It is obvious that many here are deeply in love with Carmel and treat Carmel like a spouse, with Love, devotion and tenderness. Let me reassure
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 7, 2006
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                                Dear friends,It is obvious that many here are deeply in love with
                                Carmel and treat Carmel like a spouse, with Love, devotion and
                                tenderness. Let me reassure you that no one wants to harm Carmel.
                                With every human interaction / communication there is an emotional
                                story and a factual story. It is hard to discern fact from emotion
                                when posting. Be reassured no one wants to destroy what we all love
                                and are drawn too, and that is Carmel.

                                As we all know, Carmel belongs to God and not any one person. When
                                God attempts to diffuse Himself though means of Carmelite
                                Spirituality achieving Union with the soul Friction occurs. What I
                                want – What He wants are not always in harmony. A vast difference in
                                mode of operation, understanding, love and objects hoped for exist
                                between the soul and God, hence we come here to support each other,
                                in our quest for better understanding. If that is not the case and
                                this is a devotional posting portal you need to tell me that now and
                                also consider changing the self description of this yahoo group to
                                Catholic Devotional Life so others will not be confused.

                                So deep is that devotion and love that a natural feeling is to
                                protect Carmel from any threat. I am inspired by such feelings and
                                posts of protection. If there did not exist deep affection people
                                would not feel strongly about this topic.

                                The purpose of posting here is to get a sense of what would work and
                                what would not work in service to Carmel. That is why no one has just
                                run out and put up a web site. Your input is being solicited first.

                                If Carmel were a woman, the goal would be to make Carmel better known
                                and understood. To increase the influence Carmel has in the world
                                would be a good thing. I was taught by friars that a more robust and
                                healthy Carmel makes for a greater presence of Christ in the hearts
                                and minds of others.

                                This is not a mere intellectual exercise. It is real life drama. Our
                                Pope has written that we are experiencing new phenomena in many areas
                                of the world. That is the de-Christianization of many countries. Our
                                entire Carmelite existence and effort is devoted to change that trend
                                and make Christ more known and understood. Starting with our soul and
                                then going out into the world.

                                The friction occurs when we go out from our community to meet the
                                world and bring it the values of Carmel - "Prayer defined as personal
                                relationship with Him who loves us, a relationship with the Holy
                                Spirit, in prayer that leads to an intimate relationship that
                                progresses towards union with the Trinity." When that happens and God
                                directs action, progress can be painful.


                                What is right conduct? When that Trinity begins to work in the soul,
                                achieves success in the soul and dominates that soul's will and
                                suggest a new order be placed in the world a new value a new culture
                                of Love not death, then in that case is the soul allowed to follow
                                the will of God as made known to it- the soul individually in matters
                                outside of community and personal to it, among other things. How does
                                this all get sorted out? Do we just ignore it and watch a trend of de-
                                Christianization increase and grow in strength, children abandoning
                                their faith. The elderly neglected. Do we seek to know what the
                                Church teaches in such case?

                                That is the purpose of these posts to discover right order as
                                suggested by the Catholic Church imposed upon individuals and the
                                Carmelite Order. What is and is not harmful to our journey together.
                                There is no web site now in existence about grievances. It is
                                suggested that somewhere/ sometime an opportunity be made to discuss
                                these sensitive topics. One approach could be "See no evil, hear no
                                evil and speak no evil". That approach has not worked in the past and
                                I ask others how do you think people would respond if I told them -
                                do not discuss this topic of secular rights, do not discuss canon
                                law, do not discuss the limits of leadership, do not even consider
                                joining others for support when they wish to either contradict or
                                constructively criticize another. Do not under any circumstance
                                explain to others how to take and perfect a lawful grievance that
                                preserves a fundamental right that the Church has ordained is a mode
                                of operation that the Trinity uses to work through and must be
                                protected. What do we do? Ignore a portion of what the church
                                teaches. Which teaching of Christ do we suggest others not ignore if
                                we collectively ignore some.

                                I guess that is the ultimate question, do we ignore what the church
                                teaches on this ultimate topic of right order, hoping it will go
                                away. Do we take what the church teaches and offer constructive
                                opinion on how to make it workable in our daily experiences.

                                Everything being posted by me is to be interpreted as only suggesting
                                lawful action and not disobedience or revolt. Right order of only
                                lawful action. I might sdd this is what I was taught by the friars as
                                acceptable lawful action.

                                I do not believe any posts, by me are references to my community or
                                personal greivances. My intent was to avoid my own personal issues. I
                                have been involved in right order issues from Community level to Rome
                                almost exclusivly dealing with other's needs including ocds and
                                friars and not my own. I am an equal opportunity poster. :)

                                God Bless , I hope this reassures some. J
                              • beyondbee
                                Not an authority and do not feel worthy of joining most posts.(and probably should have kept quiet here) I am wondering if the proposed idea of a Bill of
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 7, 2006
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                                  Not an authority and do not feel worthy of joining most posts.(and
                                  probably should have kept quiet here)
                                  I am wondering if the proposed idea of a Bill of Rights is another
                                  attempt by some to apply the following...YES, there are rules that
                                  should be followed but they are for everyone but me.
                                  As a teacher I have often told students that yes we have a Bill of
                                  Rights that allows certain freedoms in the United States; but that
                                  does not allow a person to do everything they want. Example Freedom
                                  of Speech - does not allow one to say anything just because of the
                                  freedom. A person must use good judgement, conscience, and common
                                  sense before speaking.
                                  There truly is great value in learning to be obedient. Often times
                                  much is learned by following directives of superiors.
                                • susie spanier
                                  jaj_2211 wrote: do not even consider joining others for support when they wish to either contradict or constructively criticize another. I don t understand
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 7, 2006
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                                     jaj_2211 wrote:"do not even consider joining others for support when they wish to either contradict or
                                    constructively criticize another."
                                    I don't understand your definition of Carmel community if it includes setting up a website where we can criticize others and call it Carmelite.????? I  guess I'm naive but I don't get  where you are going with all this or its purpose...
                                     
                                    Have a Blessed Advent,
                                    Susie ocds
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: jaj_2211
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 5:42 AM
                                    Subject: [cincarm] Bill of Rights - Maps - Web site - No one is revolting - No new Carmel

                                    Dear friends,It is obvious that many here are deeply in love with
                                    Carmel and treat Carmel like a spouse, with Love, devotion and
                                    tenderness. Let me reassure you that no one wants to harm Carmel.
                                    With every human interaction / communication there is an emotional
                                    story and a factual story. It is hard to discern fact from emotion
                                    when posting. Be reassured no one wants to destroy what we all love
                                    and are drawn too, and that is Carmel.

                                    As we all know, Carmel belongs to God and not any one person. When
                                    God attempts to diffuse Himself though means of Carmelite
                                    Spirituality achieving Union with the soul Friction occurs. What I
                                    want – What He wants are not always in harmony. A vast difference in
                                    mode of operation, understanding, love and objects hoped for exist
                                    between the soul and God, hence we come here to support each other,
                                    in our quest for better understanding. If that is not the case and
                                    this is a devotional posting portal you need to tell me that now and
                                    also consider changing the self description of this yahoo group to
                                    Catholic Devotional Life so others will not be confused.

                                    So deep is that devotion and love that a natural feeling is to
                                    protect Carmel from any threat. I am inspired by such feelings and
                                    posts of protection. If there did not exist deep affection people
                                    would not feel strongly about this topic.

                                    The purpose of posting here is to get a sense of what would work and
                                    what would not work in service to Carmel. That is why no one has just
                                    run out and put up a web site. Your input is being solicited first.

                                    If Carmel were a woman, the goal would be to make Carmel better known
                                    and understood. To increase the influence Carmel has in the world
                                    would be a good thing. I was taught by friars that a more robust and
                                    healthy Carmel makes for a greater presence of Christ in the hearts
                                    and minds of others.

                                    This is not a mere intellectual exercise. It is real life drama. Our
                                    Pope has written that we are experiencing new phenomena in many areas
                                    of the world. That is the de-Christianization of many countries. Our
                                    entire Carmelite existence and effort is devoted to change that trend
                                    and make Christ more known and understood. Starting with our soul and
                                    then going out into the world.

                                    The friction occurs when we go out from our community to meet the
                                    world and bring it the values of Carmel - "Prayer defined as personal
                                    relationship with Him who loves us, a relationship with the Holy
                                    Spirit, in prayer that leads to an intimate relationship that
                                    progresses towards union with the Trinity." When that happens and God
                                    directs action, progress can be painful.

                                    What is right conduct? When that Trinity begins to work in the soul,
                                    achieves success in the soul and dominates that soul's will and
                                    suggest a new order be placed in the world a new value a new culture
                                    of Love not death, then in that case is the soul allowed to follow
                                    the will of God as made known to it- the soul individually in matters
                                    outside of community and personal to it, among other things. How does
                                    this all get sorted out? Do we just ignore it and watch a trend of de-
                                    Christianization increase and grow in strength, children abandoning
                                    their faith. The elderly neglected. Do we seek to know what the
                                    Church teaches in such case?

                                    That is the purpose of these posts to discover right order as
                                    suggested by the Catholic Church imposed upon individuals and the
                                    Carmelite Order. What is and is not harmful to our journey together.
                                    There is no web site now in existence about grievances. It is
                                    suggested that somewhere/ sometime an opportunity be made to discuss
                                    these sensitive topics. One approach could be "See no evil, hear no
                                    evil and speak no evil". That approach has not worked in the past and
                                    I ask others how do you think people would respond if I told them -
                                    do not discuss this topic of secular rights, do not discuss canon
                                    law, do not discuss the limits of leadership, do not even consider
                                    joining others for support when they wish to either contradict or
                                    constructively criticize another. Do not under any circumstance
                                    explain to others how to take and perfect a lawful grievance that
                                    preserves a fundamental right that the Church has ordained is a mode
                                    of operation that the Trinity uses to work through and must be
                                    protected. What do we do? Ignore a portion of what the church
                                    teaches. Which teaching of Christ do we suggest others not ignore if
                                    we collectively ignore some.

                                    I guess that is the ultimate question, do we ignore what the church
                                    teaches on this ultimate topic of right order, hoping it will go
                                    away. Do we take what the church teaches and offer constructive
                                    opinion on how to make it workable in our daily experiences.

                                    Everything being posted by me is to be interpreted as only suggesting
                                    lawful action and not disobedience or revolt. Right order of only
                                    lawful action. I might sdd this is what I was taught by the friars as
                                    acceptable lawful action.

                                    I do not believe any posts, by me are references to my community or
                                    personal greivances. My intent was to avoid my own personal issues. I
                                    have been involved in right order issues from Community level to Rome
                                    almost exclusivly dealing with other's needs including ocds and
                                    friars and not my own. I am an equal opportunity poster. :)

                                    God Bless , I hope this reassures some. J

                                  • Mary Lanser
                                    ... How can one say in charity that you are messing about in business that is not your s to meddle in. We are not here as Catholics to save the Church. You
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 7, 2006
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                                      On 12/7/06, jaj_2211 <jaj_2211@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Everything being posted by me is to be interpreted as only suggesting
                                      > lawful action and not disobedience or revolt. Right order of only
                                      > lawful action. I might sdd this is what I was taught by the friars as
                                      > acceptable lawful action.
                                      >
                                      > I do not believe any posts, by me are references to my community or
                                      > personal greivances. My intent was to avoid my own personal issues. I
                                      > have been involved in right order issues from Community level to Rome
                                      > almost exclusivly dealing with other's needs including ocds and
                                      > friars and not my own. I am an equal opportunity poster. :)
                                      >

                                      How can one say in charity that you are messing about in business that
                                      is not your's to meddle in.

                                      We are not here as Catholics to save the Church. You are not
                                      obligated to nose around in every cause, grand or small, that might
                                      allow you to say that you've done your bit for orthodoxy or that
                                      you've done your bit for this soul or that.

                                      When the right order of Church or religious order is in question, then
                                      that must be managed at the appropriate level with the actual souls
                                      involved, participating in the resolution, or it is a false peace, a
                                      false resolution.

                                      It is the felicitous history of the religious orders that they have
                                      been given a marked autonomy from direct oversight from Vatican
                                      officiating. If that autonomy has been abused or is being abused in
                                      your eyes and you are not directly involved in the actions but only a
                                      recipient of some of the consequences then your role is to persevere
                                      and pray. It is not to establish a side-order to serve as a trash
                                      dump for every grievance, real or perceived. That is not an
                                      appropriate response.

                                      Mary
                                    • Elizabeth M Korves
                                      I ve been gone for a week making visitations and see there s been much discussion on this topic. I do not want to discount the fact that there are
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 7, 2006
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                                        I've been gone for a week making visitations and see there's been much
                                        discussion on this topic.

                                        I do not want to discount the fact that there are disfunctional
                                        councils out there and the Order certainly does its best to address
                                        situations when they arise and come to the attention WITHIN the "chain
                                        of command". Luckily, as Steven Payne hopes, such situations are more
                                        the exception than the rule. One of the most aggrevating situations
                                        I've encountered since coming into provincial leadership is having an
                                        individual write to the Father General with a complaint and it work
                                        its way back down that "chain of command" when no one at the
                                        in-between levels had been made aware of the problem. And in such
                                        cases, it does come right back down to the more local levels to deal
                                        with.

                                        One hugely important thing we need to all keep in mind when there are
                                        disagreements with how a council may handle something is that often
                                        these disagreements (in my limited experience)involve confidential
                                        issues. I would consider it completely unfair to set up a website
                                        allowing people to post their individual complaints when the council
                                        involved can not, for reasons of confidentiality, respond. There are
                                        always two sides and its simply not fair and not right to set up a
                                        situation where only one side could be heard.

                                        Many of the individual complaints that have made their way to our
                                        provincial council are folks appealing a negative discernment decision
                                        or something similar. The local council is not allowed to discuss the
                                        reasons for not approving someone for profession publicly. In
                                        charity, they should explain it to the candidate but the council is
                                        not free to share the reasons for their discernment with anyone else
                                        (with the exception of explaining it to someone within that chain of
                                        command should an appeal be made).

                                        Even for things outside of discernment issues, problems that our
                                        provincial council have worked with local councils in resolving almost
                                        always involve matters that are confidential. This is not a matter of
                                        keeping any secrets from folks, but rather that we are dealing with
                                        spiritual and often personal issues that should not be shared at large.

                                        Elizabeth M Korves OCDS
                                        korves@...
                                      • H R Stockert
                                        ... In every organization I ve belonged to, from the USMC to the Catholic Church, there is a prime rule: Never go outside the chain of command. Now, that
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 7, 2006
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                                          At 01:07 PM 12/7/2006, you wrote:
                                          >I've been gone for a week making visitations and see there's been much
                                          >discussion on this topic.

                                          In every organization I've belonged to, from the USMC to the Catholic
                                          Church, there is a prime rule: "Never go outside the chain of command."

                                          Now, that doesn't mean you have to do everything through your
                                          immediate superior when your immediate superior is negligent or abusive.

                                          It *does* mean that you give your immediate superior the first chance
                                          to fix the problem. Then HIS superior. Then HIS superior, and work
                                          UP the Chain of Command.

                                          NEVER GO OUTSIDE IT.

                                          It's tedious, painful and fusserating.

                                          But any other thing is sedition. And uncharitable. And un-Catholic.



                                          ___________________________

                                          I love nature. Never mind what it did to me.

                                          From the Realized but UnRecognized Eschaton
                                          @ 43"39'67.29 N 73"23'18.52 W
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