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FW: MAPS:Discovery of LSD

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  • FONEBONE
    LSD CIA CONTRACT with SANDOZ ... From: maps_forum-bounces@maps.org [mailto:maps_forum-bounces@maps.org]On Behalf Of Newmedia@aol.com Sent: Wednesday,
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 2, 2005
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      LSD   CIA CONTRACT  with  SANDOZ
      -----Original Message-----
      From: maps_forum-bounces@... [mailto:maps_forum-bounces@...]On Behalf Of Newmedia@...
      Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:26 AM
      To: Mirrorlink@...; robertforte@...
      Cc: MAPS_forum@...
      Subject: Re: MAPS:Discovery of LSD

      Gentlemen:
       
      Can we all calm down, please? 
       
      I can appreciate that there are some personal feelings involved with this discussion but with the 100th Anniversary Symposium (honoring Hofmann's birth) in Basel next January, it is probably important for us to try to understand what has happened in the past century with a little detachment and some careful analysis.
       
      When was LSD "discovered"?
       
      If this means first synthesized, then the answer is 1938 -- according to the published record.
       
      If this means first ingested and experienced, then the answer is 1943 -- also according to the published record.
       
      However, if this means first used for detailed experiments on human subjects -- in order to discover what LSD really does -- then the answer is somewhat later.  1947?  1949?
       
      I take it that this last meaning was what daybrown was referring to.  I would argue that this last meaning is the really important one in the context of the MAPS list.
       
      Who conducted the bulk of these "discovery" experiments?
       
      The CIA (and its affliliates.)
       
      Who made the LSD for the CIA?
       
      Sandoz.  Under contract.
       
      At this point it should be noted that the KGB (and its affiliates) were also conducting detailed human experiments in the same timeframe -- of which little is known publically.
       
      Yes, the CIA didn't exist -- with that name -- until 1947 and, likewise, the KGB didn't exist until 1954.  But these organizations were substantially the successors to organizations that were formed in WW II (and earlier), so using the terms "CIA" and "KGB" for these families of organizations are probably most convenient. 
       
      Allen Dulles operated the key OSS station in Berne during WW II and later became CIA chief from 1953-1961.  Dulles was ultimately in charge of MK-ULTRA and the CIA's research into LSD.  When did Dulles first meet the key officials at Sandoz?
       
      From the 1940's until the late 1960's -- the period in which LSD was *discovered*, no matter which meaning you choose -- there were only two manufacturers of LSD in any scale in the world.  Sandoz (Basel) and Spofa (Prague.)
       
      It has been widely documented that, as regards LSD, Sandoz operated largely under the direction of the CIA, while, it is less well documented, Spofa operated completely under the direction of the KGB.
       
      Therefore, as I have noted on many occasions, it is historically impossible to separate the discovery of the impact of LSD on humanity -- which was established in the 1950's and 1960's -- from the involvement of the CIA and the KGB. 
       
      More broadly speaking, the history of LSD is intimately intertwined with the Cold War and cannot really be understood outside of this context.
       
      Tim Leary got his LSD (and psilocybin) from the CIA.  So did Captain Al Hubbard. So did Humphrey Osmond.  So John Beresford and Michael Hollingshead.  So did everyone who is on the LSD record in the 1950's and 1960's.
       
      This means that the CIA (and its affiliates in British and Candian intelligence) were actively approving who recieved LSD from Sandoz and, according to my interviews with many participants, closely monitoring whatever this LSD was used for.
       
      This is not the time to examine the good vs. bad character of the CIA -- then or now.  This is not the place to address what Tim Leary (or Frank Barron) knew about the CIA.  We can deal with these issues separately, if you wish.
       
      This is also not the time to delve into whether Hofmann (and Stoll) had any additional "outside" interests that may have influenced whatever they did *before* the CIA/KGB got involved.  Or, whether some surviving "Eleusis Cult" may have played a role here.  Ditto for Nietzsche, Bachofen and Steiner and their associates in Basel.
       
      But this is probably the time to deal with the matter of "evidence."
       
      Because LSD is so thoroughly mixed up with "spy" organizations, we should all have some skepticism about the published reports.  As any historian who has worked on the history of the CIA or KGB or MI6, etc. knows, there is a rich supply of "cover-stories" that have to be worked through and dug around.
       
      The prefered technique is to conduct lots of interviews with lots of participants and then cross-correlate all their stories.  Generally these interviews are off the record and they often take considerable time to research and set up, since those involved are concerned about secrecy and often have their own axes to grind and/or blindspots.
       
      Personally, I have been involved in this field -- first as a participant and later as a researcher -- for nearly 40 years.  I have conducted over 100 interviews with others who were involved and have probably gone as far in my research than John Marks, Marty Lee and Jay Stevens.
       
      Perhaps because I do not plan to write a book, I have been used as a resource by many others in their book projects.
       
      I have no particular personal feelings that I'm trying to convey and I do not have unbounded love or hate for anyone I have met in the course of my investigations -- although many are certainly memorable characters and some are even good friends.
       
      My goal is simply to get to the "truth" in these matters and I welcome any assistance.
       
      Best,
       
      Mark Stahlman
      New York City
       
       
    • JSvj
      ... http://sunrisedancer.com/radicalreader/library/stormingheaven/ stormingheavenpro.asp
      Message 2 of 2 , Dec 3, 2005
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        According to the book, "Storming Heaven":

        > On April 13, 1953, while Huxley was dashing off that enthusiastic
        > note to Osmond concerning
        > mescaline, the CIA formally approved MK-ULTRA, and diverted
        > $300,000 to fund its initial
        > investigations. Although MK-ULTRA investigated drugs as diverse as
        > nicotine and cocaine, a
        > large part of its interest and excitement centered on LSD. Indeed,
        > the CIA considered LSD to be
        > of such promise that in November 1953 they sent two men with a
        > black bag full of cash to buy up
        > Sandoz's entire supply, which they thought was ten kilos.
        > The ten-kilo figure was the result of faulty arithmetic. When the
        > two agents arrived in Basle with
        > their satchel containing $240,000, they learned that Sandoz's total
        > output since 1943 was a
        > mere forty grams not even two ounces. Still, a bargain was struck.
        > The Swiss agreed not only to
        > supply the Agency with 100 grams of LSD a week, but also keep them
        > apprised of who else was
        > requesting the drug.


        > Hubbard didn't waste time going through proper medical channels; he
        > found out who the main suppliers
        > were and placed an order they couldn't refuse. When he heard about
        > LSD in early 1955, he
        > called up Sandoz and requested forty-three cases, which Sandoz
        > promptly shipped.


        http://sunrisedancer.com/radicalreader/library/stormingheaven/
        stormingheavenpro.asp



        On Dec 2, 2005, at 22:49, FONEBONE wrote:

        > LSD CIA CONTRACT with SANDOZ
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: maps_forum-bounces@... [mailto:maps_forum-
        > bounces@...]On Behalf Of Newmedia@...
        > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:26 AM
        > To: Mirrorlink@...; robertforte@...
        > Cc: MAPS_forum@...
        > Subject: Re: MAPS:Discovery of LSD
        >
        > Gentlemen:
        >
        > Can we all calm down, please?
        >
        > I can appreciate that there are some personal feelings involved
        > with this discussion but with the 100th Anniversary Symposium
        > (honoring Hofmann's birth) in Basel next January, it is probably
        > important for us to try to understand what has happened in the past
        > century with a little detachment and some careful analysis.
        >
        > When was LSD "discovered"?
        >
        > If this means first synthesized, then the answer is 1938 --
        > according to the published record.
        >
        > If this means first ingested and experienced, then the answer is
        > 1943 -- also according to the published record.
        >
        > However, if this means first used for detailed experiments on human
        > subjects -- in order to discover what LSD really does -- then the
        > answer is somewhat later. 1947? 1949?
        >
        > I take it that this last meaning was what daybrown was referring
        > to. I would argue that this last meaning is the really important
        > one in the context of the MAPS list.
        >
        > Who conducted the bulk of these "discovery" experiments?
        >
        > The CIA (and its affliliates.)
        >
        > Who made the LSD for the CIA?
        >
        > Sandoz. Under contract.
        >
        > At this point it should be noted that the KGB (and its affiliates)
        > were also conducting detailed human experiments in the same
        > timeframe -- of which little is known publically.
        >
        > Yes, the CIA didn't exist -- with that name -- until 1947 and,
        > likewise, the KGB didn't exist until 1954. But these organizations
        > were substantially the successors to organizations that were formed
        > in WW II (and earlier), so using the terms "CIA" and "KGB" for
        > these families of organizations are probably most convenient.
        >
        > Allen Dulles operated the key OSS station in Berne during WW II and
        > later became CIA chief from 1953-1961. Dulles was ultimately in
        > charge of MK-ULTRA and the CIA's research into LSD. When did
        > Dulles first meet the key officials at Sandoz?
        >
        > From the 1940's until the late 1960's -- the period in which LSD
        > was *discovered*, no matter which meaning you choose -- there were
        > only two manufacturers of LSD in any scale in the world. Sandoz
        > (Basel) and Spofa (Prague.)
        >
        > It has been widely documented that, as regards LSD, Sandoz operated
        > largely under the direction of the CIA, while, it is less well
        > documented, Spofa operated completely under the direction of the KGB.
        >
        > Therefore, as I have noted on many occasions, it is historically
        > impossible to separate the discovery of the impact of LSD on
        > humanity -- which was established in the 1950's and 1960's -- from
        > the involvement of the CIA and the KGB.
        >
        > More broadly speaking, the history of LSD is intimately intertwined
        > with the Cold War and cannot really be understood outside of this
        > context.
        >
        > Tim Leary got his LSD (and psilocybin) from the CIA. So did
        > Captain Al Hubbard. So did Humphrey Osmond. So John Beresford and
        > Michael Hollingshead. So did everyone who is on the LSD record in
        > the 1950's and 1960's.
        >
        > This means that the CIA (and its affiliates in British and Candian
        > intelligence) were actively approving who recieved LSD from Sandoz
        > and, according to my interviews with many participants, closely
        > monitoring whatever this LSD was used for.
        >
        > This is not the time to examine the good vs. bad character of the
        > CIA -- then or now. This is not the place to address what Tim
        > Leary (or Frank Barron) knew about the CIA. We can deal with these
        > issues separately, if you wish.
        >
        > This is also not the time to delve into whether Hofmann (and Stoll)
        > had any additional "outside" interests that may have influenced
        > whatever they did *before* the CIA/KGB got involved. Or, whether
        > some surviving "Eleusis Cult" may have played a role here. Ditto
        > for Nietzsche, Bachofen and Steiner and their associates in Basel.
        >
        > But this is probably the time to deal with the matter of "evidence."
        >
        > Because LSD is so thoroughly mixed up with "spy" organizations, we
        > should all have some skepticism about the published reports. As
        > any historian who has worked on the history of the CIA or KGB or
        > MI6, etc. knows, there is a rich supply of "cover-stories" that
        > have to be worked through and dug around.
        >
        > The prefered technique is to conduct lots of interviews with lots
        > of participants and then cross-correlate all their stories.
        > Generally these interviews are off the record and they often take
        > considerable time to research and set up, since those involved are
        > concerned about secrecy and often have their own axes to grind and/
        > or blindspots.
        >
        > Personally, I have been involved in this field -- first as a
        > participant and later as a researcher -- for nearly 40 years. I
        > have conducted over 100 interviews with others who were involved
        > and have probably gone as far in my research than John Marks, Marty
        > Lee and Jay Stevens.
        >
        > Perhaps because I do not plan to write a book, I have been used as
        > a resource by many others in their book projects.
        >
        > I have no particular personal feelings that I'm trying to convey
        > and I do not have unbounded love or hate for anyone I have met in
        > the course of my investigations -- although many are certainly
        > memorable characters and some are even good friends.
        >
        > My goal is simply to get to the "truth" in these matters and I
        > welcome any assistance.
        >
        > Best,
        >
        > Mark Stahlman
        > New York City
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Complete archives at http://www.sitbot.net/
        >
        > Please let us stay on topic and be civil.
        >
        > OM
        >
        >
        >
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        > Visit your group "cia-drugs" on the web.
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > cia-drugs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
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