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Re: [CVA] Hello to all - I am a new member

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  • Gary Loewenthal
    www.animanaturalis.com in Spain is a wonderful, committed animal rights site/organization that educates the public about the horrors of bullfights and
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
      www.animanaturalis.com in Spain is a wonderful, committed animal rights site/organization that educates the public about the horrors of bullfights and advocates for abolishing the cruel spectacle. Last I heard, two-thirds of Barcelona residents polled were opposed to bullfights. But you know how traditions persist... Eduardo may know lots more.
      Speaking of which...Welcome, Eduardo. Your opening statement was very eloquent and inspiring. It is wonderful to know that there are peaceful, faithful vegetarians throughout the world. I share your admiration for Ghandi.
      Gary
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Sue Linda Shaw <suelinda@...>
      To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:39:36 +1100
      Subject: Re: [CVA] Hello to all - I am a new member

      Welcome Eduardo! My name is Sue, and I live in Victoria, Australia. I
      agree with what you say, that eating meat and fish makes human beings more
      prone to violence etc I also agree that God is present in small things and
      everyday life, and I do my best to practise the presence of God, by
      exercising Divine Compassion in all of my everyday activities.

      I was wondering, is Spain a country that caters well to the needs of
      vegetarians and vegans? I have a friend who recently moved to Australia
      from France, and she said it was extremely difficult being a vegetarian or
      vegan in her homeland, due to the entrenched culture there. I thought that
      perhaps Spain might be the same. Also, as a committed animal lover, does
      the practise of Bull fighting cause you a great deal of anguish? And if so,
      are there others in Spain who feel the same? I can't even look at a painting
      of a bull fight, without being moved to tears....And I have felt that way
      since a very young age, so I can't imagine what it must be like to love
      animals the way you so obviously do, in a country where such an cruel
      'sport' is openly celebrated with such pomp and ceremony. I feel exactly
      the same about England's hideous practise of fox hunting, which is now being
      staunchly opposed by greater and greater numbers.

      Anyway, nice to 'meet you,' Eduardo.

      Sue


      From: "eminguezvallejo" <eminguezvallejo@...>
      To: <christianveg@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:25 AM
      Subject: [CVA] Hello to all - I am a new member


      > My name is Eduardo. I live in a small town of Spain. I am 39 y.o. and I
      > have been a vegetarian for more than ten years now. I believe there is
      > a strong link between spiritual growth and the vegetarian diet. Somehow
      > eating meat and fish makes us more prone to violence and destructive
      > passions. The vegetarian way is the compassionate way with animals and
      > humans. Vegetarianism does not make men angels but it helps to clean
      > our soul and bring us closer to God. I believe definitely that the
      > vegetarian way is an important part of God's way for humans to live in
      > peace and harmony. I am not a man inclined to make long speeches about
      > God or talk about big metaphisical truths. Rather I feel that God is
      > present in small things and actions in my everyday life. I admire
      > Ghandi and his gigantic intellectual legacy.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.





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    • Rabrsniver
      At least in the ... What most people don t know about bullfighting, is the way the bulls are prepared for the ring. Petroleum jelly is smeared into their
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
        At least in the
        > ring the bulls have a slim chance at self-defence and
        > the bullfighters face the distinct possibility of
        > dying.


        What most people don't know about
        bullfighting, is the way the bulls are
        "prepared" for the ring.

        Petroleum jelly is smeared into their
        eyes and electric cattle prods are used
        (on their genitals) in order to get the bull sufficiently enraged to want to
        fight.

        The bull hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of winning...if he DOES gore the
        matador, it more sheer luck and the ineptitude of the guy in the ring than
        anything...(the deck is invariably stacked in favor of the human
        participant...I don't know of ONE example where the "man vs. beast"
        scenario isn't. It's always a coward's game.

        Rhonda


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Stephen Augustine" <jegadoss@...>
        To: <christianveg@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:39 PM
        Subject: Re: [CVA] How feels to be a vegetarian in Spain - Bullfighting in
        Spain


        > Eduardo,
        >
        > Welcome to the list and thank you for your insightful
        > observations.
        >
        > I think the topic of bullfighting, in connection to
        > Spain (or Mexico), is a red herring. At least in the
        > ring the bulls have a slim chance at self-defence and
        > the bullfighters face the distinct possibility of
        > dying. Of course it's all barbaric and utterly
        > inhumane. However, as you so rightly point out there
        > are far worse atrocities being committed in far
        > greater numbers in slaughter houses in all countries -
        > particulary in rich, industrialized countries such as
        > the U.S.
        >
        > In some ways I think it would be better if the
        > traditional butcher shops came back where animals were
        > seen hanging in the store front and the butcher in the
        > store was the same person who killed the animal.
        > Instead it's all hidden from the public eye and all we
        > see these days are sanitized packages of meat wrapped
        > in cellophane. The horrific transition from a living,
        > breathing, sentient being to the package in the store
        > is simply not visible.
        >
        > Similarly, fox hunting in the U.K. has drawn much
        > attention because it is such a public spectacle. It
        > pales in comparison to, say, bottom trawling of the
        > oceans - a practice that is largely unseen and unfelt
        > by most humans.
        >
        > Animal abuse has increased exponentially and has, at
        > the same time, largely gone underground. That's why an
        > exposé such as PETA's "Meet Your Meat" is a valuable
        > educational tool.
        >
        > Peace,
        > Stephen
        >
        >
        > --- Eduardo Minguez <eminguezvallejo@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Thank you Heidi.
        >>
        >> Things have changed very much in Spain during the
        >> last 20 years. I live 600 km (quite a long distance
        >> in Spain) away from Valencia and I do not know
        >> Valencia well. Thus I cannot tell you if those
        >> restaurants continue to exist in the form you saw
        >> them, but I doubt it. I can tell you about Madrid
        >> and other big cities such as Zaragoza and
        >> Valladolid. There are a few shops and restaurants
        >> that still present fish on ice or even a slab of
        >> meat (very rarely) in shop-windows . In the last 20
        >> years the traditional butchers shops, where you can
        >> on some occasions see entire animals hanging from a
        >> hook, have given much ground to hypermarkets where
        >> you purchase the meat packaged in trays covered with
        >> plastic. But as I say the brunt of animal abuses
        >> take place in abattoirs, that are shielded from
        >> public scrutiny. We do not know whether the
        >> regulations against animal suffering (common to all
        >> European Union members) are being properly followed
        >> in all abattoirs or not. I know from first hand
        >> information that some abattoirs treat animals
        >> according to laws and others not. Some butchers even
        >> complain privately of rough handling of animals in
        >> abattoirs. But we can do very little about it
        >> because regular inspections by veterinaries do not
        >> yield any evidence of abuse that can be subsequently
        >> reported by the press and thus give rise to public
        >> protests.
        >>
        >> As for bullfighting, there is a silent majority that
        >> doesn't like it but tolerates it. And since the
        >> antibullfighting activists are so few in number
        >> public authorities do not see any reason to put any
        >> restriction on it. The only restrictions that are
        >> working up to a point are those imposed by market
        >> forces.
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________
        > Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
        > http://farechase.yahoo.com
        >
        >
        >
        > The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
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        >
        >



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      • Gary Loewenthal
        ... think, like in Spain, part of the problem is that only a small portion of the 90% of non-hunters speak out actively against hunting. The majority either
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
          >>> I
          think, like in Spain, part of the problem is that only a small portion of
          the 90% of non-hunters speak out actively against hunting. The majority
          either just keep silent, or they take the whole "democratic" argument that
          "this is a free country and people should be allowed to do whatever they
          want to do as long as they don't hurt anybody (anybody human)." Either way,
          nothing changes, at least not quickly or in any dramatic way. <<<
          Yes. I can't tell you how many friends grouse silently about grave injustices - animal-related or not. They are afraid of negative attention or devoting time to a cause. The other side is more mobilized and active, and in a large part this is why they set the agenda.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gary Loewenthal
          ... Spain (or Mexico), is a red herring. At least in the ring the bulls have a slim chance at self-defence and the bullfighters face the distinct possibility
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
            >>>I think the topic of bullfighting, in connection to
            Spain (or Mexico), is a red herring. At least in the
            ring the bulls have a slim chance at self-defence and
            the bullfighters face the distinct possibility of
            dying. Of course it's all barbaric and utterly
            inhumane. However, as you so rightly point out there
            are far worse atrocities being committed in far
            greater numbers in slaughter houses in all countries -
            particulary in rich, industrialized countries such as
            the U.S <<<
            What I hate about bullfighting is that it celebrates cruelty. The spectacle itself is sadistic and highly promoted. It's not a red herring; domination and insensitivity are infectious.
            We should speak out, and have time to speak out, against all cruelties; they're all related. Each victory for animals anywhere is a small victory for animals everywhere.
            Gary
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Stephen Augustine <jegadoss@...>
            To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:39:02 -0800 (PST)
            Subject: Re: [CVA] How feels to be a vegetarian in Spain - Bullfighting in Spain

            I think the topic of bullfighting, in connection to
            Spain (or Mexico), is a red herring. At least in the
            ring the bulls have a slim chance at self-defence and
            the bullfighters face the distinct possibility of
            dying. Of course it's all barbaric and utterly
            inhumane. However, as you so rightly point out there
            are far worse atrocities being committed in far
            greater numbers in slaughter houses in all countries -
            particulary in rich, industrialized countries such as
            the U.S.

            In some ways I think it would be better if the
            traditional butcher shops came back where animals were
            seen hanging in the store front and the butcher in the
            store was the same person who killed the animal.
            Instead it's all hidden from the public eye and all we
            see these days are sanitized packages of meat wrapped
            in cellophane. The horrific transition from a living,
            breathing, sentient being to the package in the store
            is simply not visible.

            Similarly, fox hunting in the U.K. has drawn much
            attention because it is such a public spectacle. It
            pales in comparison to, say, bottom trawling of the
            oceans - a practice that is largely unseen and unfelt
            by most humans.

            Animal abuse has increased exponentially and has, at
            the same time, largely gone underground. That's why an
            exposé such as PETA's "Meet Your Meat" is a valuable
            educational tool.

            Peace,
            Stephen


            --- Eduardo Minguez <eminguezvallejo@...> wrote:

            > Thank you Heidi.
            >
            > Things have changed very much in Spain during the
            > last 20 years. I live 600 km (quite a long distance
            > in Spain) away from Valencia and I do not know
            > Valencia well. Thus I cannot tell you if those
            > restaurants continue to exist in the form you saw
            > them, but I doubt it. I can tell you about Madrid
            > and other big cities such as Zaragoza and
            > Valladolid. There are a few shops and restaurants
            > that still present fish on ice or even a slab of
            > meat (very rarely) in shop-windows . In the last 20
            > years the traditional butchers shops, where you can
            > on some occasions see entire animals hanging from a
            > hook, have given much ground to hypermarkets where
            > you purchase the meat packaged in trays covered with
            > plastic. But as I say the brunt of animal abuses
            > take place in abattoirs, that are shielded from
            > public scrutiny. We do not know whether the
            > regulations against animal suffering (common to all
            > European Union members) are being properly followed
            > in all abattoirs or not. I know from first hand
            > information that some abattoirs treat animals
            > according to laws and others not. Some butchers even
            > complain privately of rough handling of animals in
            > abattoirs. But we can do very little about it
            > because regular inspections by veterinaries do not
            > yield any evidence of abuse that can be subsequently
            > reported by the press and thus give rise to public
            > protests.
            >
            > As for bullfighting, there is a silent majority that
            > doesn't like it but tolerates it. And since the
            > antibullfighting activists are so few in number
            > public authorities do not see any reason to put any
            > restriction on it. The only restrictions that are
            > working up to a point are those imposed by market
            > forces.
            >




            __________________________________
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            http://farechase.yahoo.com


            The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.





            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

            Visit your group "christianveg" on the web.

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eduardo Minguez
            I agree with Gary that bullfighting is a not a red herring. And centainly it is an atrocity from preparation of bulls to final miserable death. And what is
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
              I agree with Gary that bullfighting is a not a red herring. And centainly it is an atrocity from preparation of bulls to final miserable death. And what is more striking is how people cheer and enjoy the whole thing without even giving a thought to the suffering of the animal.




              Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...> escribió:
              >>>I think the topic of bullfighting, in connection to
              Spain (or Mexico), is a red herring. At least in the
              ring the bulls have a slim chance at self-defence and
              the bullfighters face the distinct possibility of
              dying. Of course it's all barbaric and utterly
              inhumane. However, as you so rightly point out there
              are far worse atrocities being committed in far
              greater numbers in slaughter houses in all countries -
              particulary in rich, industrialized countries such as
              the U.S <<<
              What I hate about bullfighting is that it celebrates cruelty. The spectacle itself is sadistic and highly promoted. It's not a red herring; domination and insensitivity are infectious.
              We should speak out, and have time to speak out, against all cruelties; they're all related. Each victory for animals anywhere is a small victory for animals everywhere.
              Gary
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Stephen Augustine <jegadoss@...>
              To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:39:02 -0800 (PST)
              Subject: Re: [CVA] How feels to be a vegetarian in Spain - Bullfighting in Spain

              I think the topic of bullfighting, in connection to
              Spain (or Mexico), is a red herring. At least in the
              ring the bulls have a slim chance at self-defence and
              the bullfighters face the distinct possibility of
              dying. Of course it's all barbaric and utterly
              inhumane. However, as you so rightly point out there
              are far worse atrocities being committed in far
              greater numbers in slaughter houses in all countries -
              particulary in rich, industrialized countries such as
              the U.S.

              In some ways I think it would be better if the
              traditional butcher shops came back where animals were
              seen hanging in the store front and the butcher in the
              store was the same person who killed the animal.
              Instead it's all hidden from the public eye and all we
              see these days are sanitized packages of meat wrapped
              in cellophane. The horrific transition from a living,
              breathing, sentient being to the package in the store
              is simply not visible.

              Similarly, fox hunting in the U.K. has drawn much
              attention because it is such a public spectacle. It
              pales in comparison to, say, bottom trawling of the
              oceans - a practice that is largely unseen and unfelt
              by most humans.

              Animal abuse has increased exponentially and has, at
              the same time, largely gone underground. That's why an
              exposé such as PETA's "Meet Your Meat" is a valuable
              educational tool.

              Peace,
              Stephen


              --- Eduardo Minguez <eminguezvallejo@...> wrote:

              > Thank you Heidi.
              >
              > Things have changed very much in Spain during the
              > last 20 years. I live 600 km (quite a long distance
              > in Spain) away from Valencia and I do not know
              > Valencia well. Thus I cannot tell you if those
              > restaurants continue to exist in the form you saw
              > them, but I doubt it. I can tell you about Madrid
              > and other big cities such as Zaragoza and
              > Valladolid. There are a few shops and restaurants
              > that still present fish on ice or even a slab of
              > meat (very rarely) in shop-windows . In the last 20
              > years the traditional butchers shops, where you can
              > on some occasions see entire animals hanging from a
              > hook, have given much ground to hypermarkets where
              > you purchase the meat packaged in trays covered with
              > plastic. But as I say the brunt of animal abuses
              > take place in abattoirs, that are shielded from
              > public scrutiny. We do not know whether the
              > regulations against animal suffering (common to all
              > European Union members) are being properly followed
              > in all abattoirs or not. I know from first hand
              > information that some abattoirs treat animals
              > according to laws and others not. Some butchers even
              > complain privately of rough handling of animals in
              > abattoirs. But we can do very little about it
              > because regular inspections by veterinaries do not
              > yield any evidence of abuse that can be subsequently
              > reported by the press and thus give rise to public
              > protests.
              >
              > As for bullfighting, there is a silent majority that
              > doesn't like it but tolerates it. And since the
              > antibullfighting activists are so few in number
              > public authorities do not see any reason to put any
              > restriction on it. The only restrictions that are
              > working up to a point are those imposed by market
              > forces.
              >




              __________________________________
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              The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.





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              Visit your group "christianveg" on the web.

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.



              ---------------------------------
              YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


              Visit your group "christianveg" on the web.

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              ---------------------------------




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            • Eduardo Minguez
              Thank you Gary. Animanaturalis is a wonderful organisation.I visit their site frequently. I would have given the internet address to you together with the
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
                Thank you Gary. Animanaturalis is a wonderful organisation.I visit their site frequently. I would have given the internet address to you together with the other two antibullfighting websites but unfortunately they do not have an English version of their site. Certainly it is the PETA of the Latin countries.






                Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...> escribió:
                www.animanaturalis.com in Spain is a wonderful, committed animal rights site/organization that educates the public about the horrors of bullfights and advocates for abolishing the cruel spectacle. Last I heard, two-thirds of Barcelona residents polled were opposed to bullfights. But you know how traditions persist... Eduardo may know lots more.
                Speaking of which...Welcome, Eduardo. Your opening statement was very eloquent and inspiring. It is wonderful to know that there are peaceful, faithful vegetarians throughout the world. I share your admiration for Ghandi.
                Gary
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Sue Linda Shaw <suelinda@...>
                To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:39:36 +1100
                Subject: Re: [CVA] Hello to all - I am a new member

                Welcome Eduardo! My name is Sue, and I live in Victoria, Australia. I
                agree with what you say, that eating meat and fish makes human beings more
                prone to violence etc I also agree that God is present in small things and
                everyday life, and I do my best to practise the presence of God, by
                exercising Divine Compassion in all of my everyday activities.

                I was wondering, is Spain a country that caters well to the needs of
                vegetarians and vegans? I have a friend who recently moved to Australia
                from France, and she said it was extremely difficult being a vegetarian or
                vegan in her homeland, due to the entrenched culture there. I thought that
                perhaps Spain might be the same. Also, as a committed animal lover, does
                the practise of Bull fighting cause you a great deal of anguish? And if so,
                are there others in Spain who feel the same? I can't even look at a painting
                of a bull fight, without being moved to tears....And I have felt that way
                since a very young age, so I can't imagine what it must be like to love
                animals the way you so obviously do, in a country where such an cruel
                'sport' is openly celebrated with such pomp and ceremony. I feel exactly
                the same about England's hideous practise of fox hunting, which is now being
                staunchly opposed by greater and greater numbers.

                Anyway, nice to 'meet you,' Eduardo.

                Sue


                From: "eminguezvallejo" <eminguezvallejo@...>
                To: <christianveg@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:25 AM
                Subject: [CVA] Hello to all - I am a new member


                > My name is Eduardo. I live in a small town of Spain. I am 39 y.o. and I
                > have been a vegetarian for more than ten years now. I believe there is
                > a strong link between spiritual growth and the vegetarian diet. Somehow
                > eating meat and fish makes us more prone to violence and destructive
                > passions. The vegetarian way is the compassionate way with animals and
                > humans. Vegetarianism does not make men angels but it helps to clean
                > our soul and bring us closer to God. I believe definitely that the
                > vegetarian way is an important part of God's way for humans to live in
                > peace and harmony. I am not a man inclined to make long speeches about
                > God or talk about big metaphisical truths. Rather I feel that God is
                > present in small things and actions in my everyday life. I admire
                > Ghandi and his gigantic intellectual legacy.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.





                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                Visit your group "christianveg" on the web.

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                christianveg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.



                ---------------------------------
                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                Visit your group "christianveg" on the web.

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                christianveg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                ---------------------------------




                ---------------------------------

                Correo Yahoo!
                Comprueba qué es nuevo, aquí
                http://correo.yahoo.es

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stephen Augustine
                Gary, Well said and I certainly agree with you. My point is that the challenge of ending bull fighting might leap to the forefront precisely because it is a
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
                  Gary,

                  Well said and I certainly agree with you. My point is
                  that the challenge of ending bull fighting might leap
                  to the forefront precisely because it is a public,
                  sadistic spectacle. In doing so it has the potential
                  to divert us from other issues such as ending cruelty
                  in slaughter houses or other places that are hidden
                  from the public eye. For example, hunting in the
                  United States is very prevalent and widely accepted
                  and promoted. I'm certain that the scale of cruelty
                  involved in hunting in the United States far surpasses
                  that of bull fighting in Spain. Why, the scale of
                  illegal dog fighting and cock fighting (still legal in
                  New Mexico and Louisiana) in the United States also
                  probably exceeds that of all bull fighting in Spain.

                  Does it matter to the creature involved if it's a
                  public spectacle or not? Does bull fighting lead to
                  more and greater cruelties? Should we spend equal time
                  (for example) advocating against video games that
                  teach violence? Should we spend equal time (another
                  example) advocating against governments that exemplify
                  the top-down acceptance of violence?

                  Stephen


                  --- Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...>
                  wrote:


                  > What I hate about bullfighting is that it celebrates
                  > cruelty. The spectacle itself is sadistic and highly
                  > promoted. It's not a red herring; domination and
                  > insensitivity are infectious.
                  > We should speak out, and have time to speak out,
                  > against all cruelties; they're all related. Each
                  > victory for animals anywhere is a small victory for
                  > animals everywhere.
                  > Gary





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                • Gary Loewenthal
                  I think we should try and end all kinds of cruelty, oppression, and evil in whatever way our hearts are moved to fight it. I realize there is frequent,
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
                    I think we should try and end all kinds of cruelty, oppression, and evil in whatever way our hearts are moved to fight it. I realize there is frequent, sometimes heated discussion over which specific cruelties we should focus on first. I've heard arguments based on number of animals involved, likelihood of garnering public support, momentum-building potential, severity of abuse, and so forth. I'm not saying these discussions are without merit. But right now, I'm pretty much at the point where I think if everyone just takes some sort of action - I almost don't care what it is - we'll get there quickest. Some people will be moved to protest puppy mills. Others will rescue foie gras ducks. It's all good. It all synergizes. To a large extent, we can multitask: conspicuously order a vegan dish, volunteer at a farm sanctuary once a month, occasionally educate people on the horror of rodeos and bullfights.
                    Gary
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Stephen Augustine <jegadoss@...>
                    To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:35:16 -0800 (PST)
                    Subject: Re: [CVA] How feels to be a vegetarian in Spain - Bullfighting in Spain

                    Gary,

                    Well said and I certainly agree with you. My point is
                    that the challenge of ending bull fighting might leap
                    to the forefront precisely because it is a public,
                    sadistic spectacle. In doing so it has the potential
                    to divert us from other issues such as ending cruelty
                    in slaughter houses or other places that are hidden
                    from the public eye. For example, hunting in the
                    United States is very prevalent and widely accepted
                    and promoted. I'm certain that the scale of cruelty
                    involved in hunting in the United States far surpasses
                    that of bull fighting in Spain. Why, the scale of
                    illegal dog fighting and cock fighting (still legal in
                    New Mexico and Louisiana) in the United States also
                    probably exceeds that of all bull fighting in Spain.

                    Does it matter to the creature involved if it's a
                    public spectacle or not? Does bull fighting lead to
                    more and greater cruelties? Should we spend equal time
                    (for example) advocating against video games that
                    teach violence? Should we spend equal time (another
                    example) advocating against governments that exemplify
                    the top-down acceptance of violence?

                    Stephen


                    --- Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...>
                    wrote:


                    > What I hate about bullfighting is that it celebrates
                    > cruelty. The spectacle itself is sadistic and highly
                    > promoted. It's not a red herring; domination and
                    > insensitivity are infectious.
                    > We should speak out, and have time to speak out,
                    > against all cruelties; they're all related. Each
                    > victory for animals anywhere is a small victory for
                    > animals everywhere.
                    > Gary





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                  • Eduardo Minguez
                    Why should we compare atrocities? Bullfighting, hunting, animal abuse in abattoirs, animal fights, etc are all atrocities that should be fought simultaneously
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
                      Why should we compare atrocities?

                      Bullfighting, hunting, animal abuse in abattoirs, animal fights, etc are all atrocities that should be fought simultaneously and as effectively as possible.

                      Rhonda is quite right. The fight between man and bull is completely rigged in favour of man. If the bulls were allowed to fight with men without cruelly sapping their strength and senses beforehand no man would dare place himself before a bull because he would certainly be a death man.Thus bullfighting, besides being extremely cruel, is a complete cheat, a complete lie. I do not want to bother you with gory descriptions of what they do to bring a bull to its knees thus allowing a man to kill the bull. No man can even approach a furious bull that has not been previously maimed or handicapped by different means, some of them extremely painful. They literally bleed away the energy of the bull until it becomes a manageable target.

                      Stephen Augustine <jegadoss@...> escribió:
                      Gary,

                      Well said and I certainly agree with you. My point is
                      that the challenge of ending bull fighting might leap
                      to the forefront precisely because it is a public,
                      sadistic spectacle. In doing so it has the potential
                      to divert us from other issues such as ending cruelty
                      in slaughter houses or other places that are hidden
                      from the public eye. For example, hunting in the
                      United States is very prevalent and widely accepted
                      and promoted. I'm certain that the scale of cruelty
                      involved in hunting in the United States far surpasses
                      that of bull fighting in Spain. Why, the scale of
                      illegal dog fighting and cock fighting (still legal in
                      New Mexico and Louisiana) in the United States also
                      probably exceeds that of all bull fighting in Spain.

                      Does it matter to the creature involved if it's a
                      public spectacle or not? Does bull fighting lead to
                      more and greater cruelties? Should we spend equal time
                      (for example) advocating against video games that
                      teach violence? Should we spend equal time (another
                      example) advocating against governments that exemplify
                      the top-down acceptance of violence?

                      Stephen


                      --- Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...>
                      wrote:


                      > What I hate about bullfighting is that it celebrates
                      > cruelty. The spectacle itself is sadistic and highly
                      > promoted. It's not a red herring; domination and
                      > insensitivity are infectious.
                      > We should speak out, and have time to speak out,
                      > against all cruelties; they're all related. Each
                      > victory for animals anywhere is a small victory for
                      > animals everywhere.
                      > Gary





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                    • fineartmarcella
                      If you right click over the page, then look at the menu you bring up, you will find a line that says translate page to English click on that Marcella ...
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 1, 2005
                        If you right click over the page, then look at the menu you bring
                        up, you will find a line that says 'translate page to English' click
                        on that
                        Marcella

                        --- In christianveg@yahoogroups.com, Eduardo Minguez
                        <eminguezvallejo@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thank you Gary. Animanaturalis is a wonderful organisation.I visit
                        their site frequently. I would have given the internet address to
                        you together with the other two antibullfighting websites but
                        unfortunately they do not have an English version of their site.
                        Certainly it is the PETA of the Latin countries.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@m...> escribió:
                        > www.animanaturalis.com in Spain is a wonderful, committed animal
                        rights site/organization that educates the public about the horrors
                        of bullfights and advocates for abolishing the cruel spectacle. Last
                        I heard, two-thirds of Barcelona residents polled were opposed to
                        bullfights. But you know how traditions persist... Eduardo may know
                        lots more.
                        > Speaking of which...Welcome, Eduardo. Your opening statement was
                        very eloquent and inspiring. It is wonderful to know that there are
                        peaceful, faithful vegetarians throughout the world. I share your
                        admiration for Ghandi.
                        > Gary
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Sue Linda Shaw <suelinda@f...>
                        > To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:39:36 +1100
                        > Subject: Re: [CVA] Hello to all - I am a new member
                        >
                        > Welcome Eduardo! My name is Sue, and I live in Victoria,
                        Australia. I
                        > agree with what you say, that eating meat and fish makes human
                        beings more
                        > prone to violence etc I also agree that God is present in small
                        things and
                        > everyday life, and I do my best to practise the presence of God, by
                        > exercising Divine Compassion in all of my everyday activities.
                        >
                        > I was wondering, is Spain a country that caters well to the needs
                        of
                        > vegetarians and vegans? I have a friend who recently moved to
                        Australia
                        > from France, and she said it was extremely difficult being a
                        vegetarian or
                        > vegan in her homeland, due to the entrenched culture there. I
                        thought that
                        > perhaps Spain might be the same. Also, as a committed animal
                        lover, does
                        > the practise of Bull fighting cause you a great deal of anguish?
                        And if so,
                        > are there others in Spain who feel the same? I can't even look at
                        a painting
                        > of a bull fight, without being moved to tears....And I have felt
                        that way
                        > since a very young age, so I can't imagine what it must be like to
                        love
                        > animals the way you so obviously do, in a country where such an
                        cruel
                        > 'sport' is openly celebrated with such pomp and ceremony. I feel
                        exactly
                        > the same about England's hideous practise of fox hunting, which is
                        now being
                        > staunchly opposed by greater and greater numbers.
                        >
                        > Anyway, nice to 'meet you,' Eduardo.
                        >
                        > Sue
                        >
                        >
                        > From: "eminguezvallejo" <eminguezvallejo@y...>
                        > To: <christianveg@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:25 AM
                        > Subject: [CVA] Hello to all - I am a new member
                        >
                        >
                        > > My name is Eduardo. I live in a small town of Spain. I am 39
                        y.o. and I
                        > > have been a vegetarian for more than ten years now. I believe
                        there is
                        > > a strong link between spiritual growth and the vegetarian diet.
                        Somehow
                        > > eating meat and fish makes us more prone to violence and
                        destructive
                        > > passions. The vegetarian way is the compassionate way with
                        animals and
                        > > humans. Vegetarianism does not make men angels but it helps to
                        clean
                        > > our soul and bring us closer to God. I believe definitely that
                        the
                        > > vegetarian way is an important part of God's way for humans to
                        live in
                        > > peace and harmony. I am not a man inclined to make long speeches
                        about
                        > > God or talk about big metaphisical truths. Rather I feel that
                        God is
                        > > present in small things and actions in my everyday life. I admire
                        > > Ghandi and his gigantic intellectual legacy.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        > Visit your group "christianveg" on the web.
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > christianveg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        Service.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        >
                        > Visit your group "christianveg" on the web.
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                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Stephen Augustine
                        Again, well said and I am very much in agreement with you. I mused and collected my thoughts a bit more. This email thing encourages sloppiness. Anyway, my
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 2, 2005
                          Again, well said and I am very much in agreement with
                          you. I mused and collected my thoughts a bit more.
                          This email thing encourages sloppiness.

                          Anyway, my initial comment about bull fighting being a
                          red herring has more to do with painting the people of
                          Spain red rather than the bulls. In other lists and
                          conversations I have encountered at least two
                          occasions where a person from Spain, introducing
                          themselves, has almost immediately been asked for
                          their opinion on bull fighting. My concern is that
                          bull fighting encourages the perception that the
                          people of Spain are more cruel than normal -
                          especially since they gather in stadiums to cheer on
                          the mutilation and torture of an animal. But then
                          again I haven't been to Spain and I don't know much
                          about Spanish culture.

                          If I introduced myself as being from India (which I
                          am, sort of) I doubt that anyone would enquire as to
                          the treatment of bulls in India. The hundreds of
                          thousands of draught oxen (almost all are bulls) in
                          and around urban areas in India are, in my
                          observation, treated very cruelly. They are whipped
                          mercilessly in the stifling heat as they are goaded
                          into pulling overloaded carts up steep hills and
                          alongside roaring traffic. Their tongues hang out,
                          their mouths are covered in foam and their flanks
                          bleed from where they are whipped. I have often seen
                          oxen simply collapse and refuse to get up no matter
                          how much they are beaten or prodded. After a short
                          night's respite it starts all over again. All of this
                          happens in full view of the public and either no one
                          notices or they have become inured to such cruelty and
                          suffering.

                          The Indians, I sadly feel, can and will match any
                          other people in their cruelty.

                          Stephen



                          --- Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...>
                          wrote:

                          > I think we should try and end all kinds of cruelty,
                          > oppression, and evil in whatever way our hearts are
                          > moved to fight it. I realize there is frequent,
                          > sometimes heated discussion over which specific
                          > cruelties we should focus on first. I've heard
                          > arguments based on number of animals involved,
                          > likelihood of garnering public support,
                          > momentum-building potential, severity of abuse, and
                          > so forth. I'm not saying these discussions are
                          > without merit. But right now, I'm pretty much at
                          > the point where I think if everyone just takes some
                          > sort of action - I almost don't care what it is -
                          > we'll get there quickest. Some people will be moved
                          > to protest puppy mills. Others will rescue foie gras
                          > ducks. It's all good. It all synergizes. To a large
                          > extent, we can multitask: conspicuously order a
                          > vegan dish, volunteer at a farm sanctuary once a
                          > month, occasionally educate people on the horror of
                          > rodeos and bullfights.
                          > Gary




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                        • Stephen Augustine
                          What concerns me more than the killing is the duration and extent of suffering inflicted upon the creature. A lifetime of suffering in a battery cage or
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 2, 2005
                            What concerns me more than the killing is the duration
                            and extent of suffering inflicted upon the creature. A
                            lifetime of suffering in a battery cage or gestation
                            crate is probably an eternity compared to 20 minutes
                            in a bull ring. So in a world where there are few
                            vegetarians and countless atrocities against
                            non-humans I cannot help but compare atrocities and
                            focus my efforts.

                            Stephen


                            --- Eduardo Minguez <eminguezvallejo@...> wrote:

                            > Why should we compare atrocities?
                            >
                            > Bullfighting, hunting, animal abuse in abattoirs,
                            > animal fights, etc are all atrocities that should be
                            > fought simultaneously and as effectively as
                            > possible.
                            >





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                          • tev treowlufu
                            Donate videos to local libraries!! Well said Gary. tev ... http://us.click.yahoo.com/vWALvA/gYnLAA/EcBKAA/.1VolB/TM ...
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 2, 2005
                              Donate videos to local libraries!!

                              Well said Gary.

                              tev

                              --- Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...>
                              wrote:

                              > I think we should try and end all kinds of cruelty,
                              > oppression, and evil in whatever way our hearts are
                              > moved to fight it. I realize there is frequent,
                              > sometimes heated discussion over which specific
                              > cruelties we should focus on first. I've heard
                              > arguments based on number of animals involved,
                              > likelihood of garnering public support,
                              > momentum-building potential, severity of abuse, and
                              > so forth. I'm not saying these discussions are
                              > without merit. But right now, I'm pretty much at
                              > the point where I think if everyone just takes some
                              > sort of action - I almost don't care what it is -
                              > we'll get there quickest. Some people will be moved
                              > to protest puppy mills. Others will rescue foie gras
                              > ducks. It's all good. It all synergizes. To a large
                              > extent, we can multitask: conspicuously order a
                              > vegan dish, volunteer at a farm sanctuary once a
                              > month, occasionally educate people on the horror of
                              > rodeos and bullfights.
                              > Gary
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Stephen Augustine <jegadoss@...>
                              > To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:35:16 -0800 (PST)
                              > Subject: Re: [CVA] How feels to be a vegetarian in
                              > Spain - Bullfighting in Spain
                              >
                              > Gary,
                              >
                              > Well said and I certainly agree with you. My point
                              > is
                              > that the challenge of ending bull fighting might
                              > leap
                              > to the forefront precisely because it is a public,
                              > sadistic spectacle. In doing so it has the potential
                              > to divert us from other issues such as ending
                              > cruelty
                              > in slaughter houses or other places that are hidden
                              > from the public eye. For example, hunting in the
                              > United States is very prevalent and widely accepted
                              > and promoted. I'm certain that the scale of cruelty
                              > involved in hunting in the United States far
                              > surpasses
                              > that of bull fighting in Spain. Why, the scale of
                              > illegal dog fighting and cock fighting (still legal
                              > in
                              > New Mexico and Louisiana) in the United States also
                              > probably exceeds that of all bull fighting in Spain.
                              >
                              > Does it matter to the creature involved if it's a
                              > public spectacle or not? Does bull fighting lead to
                              > more and greater cruelties? Should we spend equal
                              > time
                              > (for example) advocating against video games that
                              > teach violence? Should we spend equal time (another
                              > example) advocating against governments that
                              > exemplify
                              > the top-down acceptance of violence?
                              >
                              > Stephen
                              >
                              >
                              > --- Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > What I hate about bullfighting is that it
                              > celebrates
                              > > cruelty. The spectacle itself is sadistic and
                              > highly
                              > > promoted. It's not a red herring; domination and
                              > > insensitivity are infectious.
                              > > We should speak out, and have time to speak out,
                              > > against all cruelties; they're all related. Each
                              > > victory for animals anywhere is a small victory
                              > for
                              > > animals everywhere.
                              > > Gary
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • Gary Loewenthal
                              On the surface, if you take into consideration things like duration and breadth of suffering, battery cages are worse. And maybe, they just flat out are worse.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 2, 2005
                                On the surface, if you take into consideration things like duration and breadth of suffering, battery cages are worse. And maybe, they just flat out are worse. Yet I cannot reduce atrocity A vs atrocity B to an equation. In this case they are both so full of horror that I am quickly into the realm of the unthinkable and immeasurable.
                                I agree with your comments about unfairly painting the Spaniards as bullfighting enthusiasts, and your descriptions of the poor oxen in India were horrifying. Cruelty knows no boundaries. I pray compassion doesn't, either.
                                Gary
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Stephen Augustine <jegadoss@...>
                                To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:47:45 -0800 (PST)
                                Subject: Re: [CVA] Cruelty in Bullfighting - cruelty in general

                                What concerns me more than the killing is the duration
                                and extent of suffering inflicted upon the creature. A
                                lifetime of suffering in a battery cage or gestation
                                crate is probably an eternity compared to 20 minutes
                                in a bull ring. So in a world where there are few
                                vegetarians and countless atrocities against
                                non-humans I cannot help but compare atrocities and
                                focus my efforts.

                                Stephen


                                --- Eduardo Minguez <eminguezvallejo@...> wrote:

                                > Why should we compare atrocities?
                                >
                                > Bullfighting, hunting, animal abuse in abattoirs,
                                > animal fights, etc are all atrocities that should be
                                > fought simultaneously and as effectively as
                                > possible.
                                >





                                __________________________________
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                                http://mail.yahoo.com


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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • pwwp98
                                ... would have given the internet address to you together with the other two antibullfighting websites but unfortunately they do not have an English version
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 2, 2005
                                  --- In christianveg@yahoogroups.com, Eduardo Minguez <eminguezvallejo@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Thank you Gary. Animanaturalis is a wonderful organisation.I visit their site frequently. I
                                  would have given the internet address to you together with the other two antibullfighting
                                  websites but unfortunately they do not have an English version of their site. Certainly it is
                                  the PETA of the Latin countries.

                                  Hi. I'm just wandering through some random posts, and happened upon this. I thought
                                  people might like to know that Google (and others) has an option to translate sites into
                                  other languages. I have no idea how correct the grammar is, but here is what I came up
                                  with as an English translation for the Animanaturalis site:

                                  <http://www.google.com/translate?
                                  u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Animanaturalis.com&langpair=es%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8>

                                  If that's too long, maybe this will work:
                                  http://tinyurl.com/9qumq

                                  Sue
                                • Gary Loewenthal
                                  Short story. Last year, during the NCAA college basketball tournament, I saw a commercial for Gillette razors. A montage of sports heroes and everyday men.
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 2, 2005
                                    Short story. Last year, during the NCAA college basketball tournament, I saw a commercial for Gillette razors. A montage of sports heroes and everyday men. Near the end of the montage was a lrom a bullfight; it glorifued the matador. I immediately sent an email to Gillette. I cc'd animanaturalis. The next week I saw the same commercial. I watched the whole thing. It was identical, except no bullfight segment.
                                    Months later, I got to meet Leonora, one of the animanaturalis hosts. I found out from her that some people reading animalnaturalis also sent emails to Gillette. She found out from me that Gillette modified the commercial.

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • tev treowlufu
                                    Very revealing Stephen. This commentary only reinforces my belief that how we treat animals on daily basis directly corresponds to how humans treat one another
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 3, 2005
                                      Very revealing Stephen. This commentary only
                                      reinforces my belief that how we treat animals on
                                      daily basis directly corresponds to how humans treat
                                      one another (both abusively and exploitatively).

                                      Thanks for the reminder.

                                      tev

                                      --- Stephen Augustine <jegadoss@...> wrote:


                                      > If I introduced myself as being from India (which I
                                      > am, sort of) I doubt that anyone would enquire as to
                                      > the treatment of bulls in India. The hundreds of
                                      > thousands of draught oxen (almost all are bulls) in
                                      > and around urban areas in India are, in my
                                      > observation, treated very cruelly. They are whipped
                                      > mercilessly in the stifling heat as they are goaded
                                      > into pulling overloaded carts up steep hills and
                                      > alongside roaring traffic. Their tongues hang out,
                                      > their mouths are covered in foam and their flanks
                                      > bleed from where they are whipped. I have often seen
                                      > oxen simply collapse and refuse to get up no matter
                                      > how much they are beaten or prodded. After a short
                                      > night's respite it starts all over again. All of
                                      > this
                                      > happens in full view of the public and either no one
                                      > notices or they have become inured to such cruelty
                                      > and
                                      > suffering.


                                      ____________________________________________
                                      [...there'll be love and laughter,
                                      and peace ever after,
                                      just you wait and see...
                                      ---Vera Lynn]
                                      ____________________________________________



                                      __________________________________
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                                    • Eduardo Minguez
                                      Gary, I do not know Leonora de Esquivel personally, but I see she s doing a great job at anima naturalis. The regional Madrid TV station, Telemadrid, is
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
                                        Gary,

                                        I do not know Leonora de Esquivel personally, but I see she's doing a great job at anima naturalis.

                                        The regional Madrid TV station, Telemadrid, is carrying a commercial that features a bull entering an arena. There are not shocking images but I think that image of the bull should not be used to promote tourism in Madrid because it conjures up cruel use of animals as an entertainment.

                                        If you want to send e-mails asking for the removal of that section of the ad you can do it to:

                                        telemadrid@...


                                        Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...> escribió:
                                        Short story. Last year, during the NCAA college basketball tournament, I saw a commercial for Gillette razors. A montage of sports heroes and everyday men. Near the end of the montage was a lrom a bullfight; it glorifued the matador. I immediately sent an email to Gillette. I cc'd animanaturalis. The next week I saw the same commercial. I watched the whole thing. It was identical, except no bullfight segment.
                                        Months later, I got to meet Leonora, one of the animanaturalis hosts. I found out from her that some people reading animalnaturalis also sent emails to Gillette. She found out from me that Gillette modified the commercial.

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                      • Sue Linda Shaw
                                        Eduardo, I have sent an email to the television station, requesting that they remove the bull from their commercial. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Nov 4, 2005
                                          Eduardo, I have sent an email to the television station, requesting that
                                          they remove the bull from their commercial. Thanks for giving me the
                                          opportunity to do so, by posting their email address in your message to Gary
                                          below.

                                          Sue


                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Eduardo Minguez" <eminguezvallejo@...>
                                          To: <christianveg@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 7:22 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [CVA] tourism commercial in Madrid regional TV


                                          Gary,

                                          I do not know Leonora de Esquivel personally, but I see she's doing a great
                                          job at anima naturalis.

                                          The regional Madrid TV station, Telemadrid, is carrying a commercial that
                                          features a bull entering an arena. There are not shocking images but I think
                                          that image of the bull should not be used to promote tourism in Madrid
                                          because it conjures up cruel use of animals as an entertainment.

                                          If you want to send e-mails asking for the removal of that section of the ad
                                          you can do it to:

                                          telemadrid@...


                                          Gary Loewenthal <garyloewenthal@...> escribió:
                                          Short story. Last year, during the NCAA college basketball tournament, I saw
                                          a commercial for Gillette razors. A montage of sports heroes and everyday
                                          men. Near the end of the montage was a lrom a bullfight; it glorifued the
                                          matador. I immediately sent an email to Gillette. I cc'd animanaturalis. The
                                          next week I saw the same commercial. I watched the whole thing. It was
                                          identical, except no bullfight segment.
                                          Months later, I got to meet Leonora, one of the animanaturalis hosts. I
                                          found out from her that some people reading animalnaturalis also sent emails
                                          to Gillette. She found out from me that Gillette modified the commercial.

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                          The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.



                                          SPONSORED LINKS
                                          Christianity Vegetarian diet Vegetarian diet plan Jehovah witness beliefs
                                          Healthy vegetarian diet

                                          ---------------------------------
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                                          Visit your group "christianveg" on the web.

                                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          christianveg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                                          Correo Yahoo!
                                          Comprueba qué es nuevo, aquí
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                                          The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.
                                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        • Heidi Huse
                                          Yes, and I remember from when I was there, the most famous of bullfighters were celebrated in Spanish tabloids much as celebrities here are; people couldn t
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Nov 7, 2005
                                            Yes, and I remember from when I was there, the most famous of bullfighters
                                            were celebrated in Spanish tabloids much as celebrities here are; people
                                            couldn't get enough of them it seemed. Heidi

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Eduardo Minguez" <eminguezvallejo@...>
                                            To: <christianveg@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:12 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [CVA] How feels to be a vegetarian in Spain - Bullfighting in
                                            Spain


                                            I agree with Gary that bullfighting is a not a red herring. And centainly it
                                            is an atrocity from preparation of bulls to final miserable death. And what
                                            is more striking is how people cheer and enjoy the whole thing without even
                                            giving a thought to the suffering of the animal.
                                          • Eduardo Minguez
                                            Yes, a few bullfighters get much coverage from social gossip magazines. Some of them consort with famous names and thus they are very reported. If a well-known
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Nov 8, 2005
                                              Yes, a few bullfighters get much coverage from social gossip magazines. Some of them consort with famous names and thus they are very reported. If a well-known bullfighter dates or marries Ms Nothing he will receive less attention from the media. But if they date or marry another celebrity they get much coverage.

                                              Those things interest some readers that otherwise might not talk about bullfighters. Eduardo.

                                              Heidi Huse <drheidi@...> escribió:
                                              Yes, and I remember from when I was there, the most famous of bullfighters
                                              were celebrated in Spanish tabloids much as celebrities here are; people
                                              couldn't get enough of them it seemed. Heidi

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Eduardo Minguez" <eminguezvallejo@...>
                                              To: <christianveg@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:12 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [CVA] How feels to be a vegetarian in Spain - Bullfighting in
                                              Spain


                                              I agree with Gary that bullfighting is a not a red herring. And centainly it
                                              is an atrocity from preparation of bulls to final miserable death. And what
                                              is more striking is how people cheer and enjoy the whole thing without even
                                              giving a thought to the suffering of the animal.







                                              The Christian Vegetarian Association www.christianveg.com.



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                                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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