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  • b_roberts_1998
    I am a fairly new smoker. (Actually I started about a week ago upon turning 19.) But being a Christian, I had to first take in consideration whether or not I
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 5, 2002
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      I am a fairly new smoker. (Actually I started about a week ago upon
      turning 19.) But being a Christian, I had to first take in
      consideration whether or not I would be sinning by smoking a pipe.
      In the church that I attend (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod),
      we often use the word "audi-ophera" to describe smoking. It's Greek
      and essential translates to "neither commanded nor forbidden in the
      Bible." But that alone does not make an excuse for smoking. The
      Bible does give certain guidelines that do apply to this situation.
      Such as: "Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for
      the glory of God;" 1Corinthians 10:31. How does one smoke to God's
      glory? I can think of a couple ways. First, obey the government's
      laws about smoking. The Bible does mention that all governments are
      established by God. Second, remember that your body is a temple of
      the Holy Spirit. So don't smoke in excess or ruin your body by
      smoking. Drinking is not forbidden the Bible, but excessive drinking
      is. Also remember the first commandment. "You shall have no other
      gods." I believe that addiction to tobacco is a sin because it means
      that we are letting tobacco rule our will instead of God. I believe
      that tobacco is a gift from God for the enjoyment of man. Obviously
      the seminary where you applieddoes not see it this way. I am
      interested to hear their side and see if their belief about smoking
      has any scriptural basis or if it is purely their doctrine. I pray
      that you make it into this school but remember; God is in control.
      Not them. If it is God's will that you attend this school, then he
      will make a way.

      "We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love
      him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28
    • revjerabek
      I believe smoking is neither forbidden nor commanded in Scripture. Yes, we are to do all things to God s glory. I also believe that one can smoke to God s
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 7, 2002
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        I believe smoking is neither forbidden nor commanded in Scripture.
        Yes, we are to do all things to God's glory. I also believe that one
        can smoke to God's glory and, in moderation it is not ruining the
        temple of God. For that matter, anything we eat, getting into a car
        for the morning commute, etc... - all these could be considered
        disrespectful to the body as temple of God because each could cause
        it's demise.

        The seminary in question obviously disagrees with this viewpoint. If
        one does not agree with them, so be it. I do not agree. I think
        they are wet behind the ears. This teaching smacks of works
        righteousness, that deeds count in some way toward salvation. This
        is heretical - damningly heretical - as it is anthropocentric versus
        Christocentric in regards to salvation.


        I'd guess this same seminary, believing this about tobacco would also
        believe that Jesus didn't use wine in the Last Supper and
        furthermore, that Christ's body and blood are not present in the
        sacrament, and that the sacrament does not which grants forgiveness,
        eternal life, and salvation. I also believe that these beliefs are
        heretical and carry eternal ramifications.

        I personally would not attend a seminary which, in my opinion,
        teaches false and damning theology.

        Todd
      • fourshephards
        ... one ... car ... If ... versus ... also ... forgiveness, ... Um, Todd, why don t you open up a little and tell us what is really on your mind...;-) Jay
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 7, 2002
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          --- In christianpipesmokers@y..., revjerabek <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > I believe smoking is neither forbidden nor commanded in Scripture.
          > Yes, we are to do all things to God's glory. I also believe that
          one
          > can smoke to God's glory and, in moderation it is not ruining the
          > temple of God. For that matter, anything we eat, getting into a
          car
          > for the morning commute, etc... - all these could be considered
          > disrespectful to the body as temple of God because each could cause
          > it's demise.
          >
          > The seminary in question obviously disagrees with this viewpoint.
          If
          > one does not agree with them, so be it. I do not agree. I think
          > they are wet behind the ears. This teaching smacks of works
          > righteousness, that deeds count in some way toward salvation. This
          > is heretical - damningly heretical - as it is anthropocentric
          versus
          > Christocentric in regards to salvation.
          >
          >
          > I'd guess this same seminary, believing this about tobacco would
          also
          > believe that Jesus didn't use wine in the Last Supper and
          > furthermore, that Christ's body and blood are not present in the
          > sacrament, and that the sacrament does not which grants
          forgiveness,
          > eternal life, and salvation. I also believe that these beliefs are
          > heretical and carry eternal ramifications.
          >
          > I personally would not attend a seminary which, in my opinion,
          > teaches false and damning theology.
          >
          > Todd



          Um, Todd, why don't you open up a little and tell us what is really
          on your mind...;-)

          Jay
        • revjerabek
          ... My point Jay, and maybe I didn t make it is this. Why would someone be so concerned about being rejected as a student in a school which is obviously not
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 7, 2002
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            >
            > Um, Todd, why don't you open up a little and tell us what is really
            > on your mind...;-)
            >
            > Jay


            My point Jay, and maybe I didn't make it is this. Why would someone
            be so concerned about being rejected as a student in a school which
            is obviously not believing as he does?

            That is all.

            I am sure there are disagreeing points of view here on all the issues
            I raised. I didn't raise them to start a discussion on them in this
            forum, although I'd welcome that (steel sharpens steel). I was
            trying to point out that if you believe something, stand by it,
            believe it unabashedly and unreservedly.

            I will respect anybody's beliefs, as long as they can defend them and
            are willing to stand by them. I may disagree. I may try to convert
            to my belief, and they do the same to me.

            However, the person who has no beliefs or believes there are no
            absolutes...

            Todd
          • cmw328i
            Im confused as to what you mean by this. I d guess this same seminary, believing this about tobacco would also believe that Jesus didn t use wine in the Last
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 8, 2002
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              Im confused as to what you mean by this.


              "I'd guess this same seminary, believing this about tobacco would
              also
              believe that Jesus didn't use wine in the Last Supper and
              furthermore, that Christ's body and blood are not present in the
              sacrament, and that the sacrament does not which grants forgiveness,
              eternal life, and salvation. I also believe that these beliefs are
              heretical and carry eternal ramifications."
            • revjerabek
              ... forgiveness, ... Those who take such a stand on tobacco, as that stance which the seminary in question (about which this whole discussion was started)
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 8, 2002
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                --- In christianpipesmokers@y..., cmw328i <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > Im confused as to what you mean by this.
                >
                >
                > "I'd guess this same seminary, believing this about tobacco would
                > also
                > believe that Jesus didn't use wine in the Last Supper and
                > furthermore, that Christ's body and blood are not present in the
                > sacrament, and that the sacrament does not which grants
                forgiveness,
                > eternal life, and salvation. I also believe that these beliefs are
                > heretical and carry eternal ramifications."

                Those who take such a stand on tobacco, as that stance which the
                seminary in question (about which this whole discussion was started)
                usually believe alcohol is a sin. They also claim then that Jesus
                didn't use wine in the Lord's Supper. Nor was it Christ' body and
                blodd in the sacrament. Nor....

                I bring it up because these are all reasons "I" personally would not
                attend such a seminary.

                Todd
              • cmw328i
                no, i understand what kind of statement you are making, what confuses me is when you say Nor was it Christ body and blood in the sacrament. is the sacrament
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 8, 2002
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                  no, i understand what kind of statement you are making, what confuses
                  me is when you say "Nor was it Christ' body and blood in the
                  sacrament."

                  is the sacrament another term for the Lord's supper/communion?

                  if so, then it doesnt make any sense to me because the gospels record
                  bread and wine in every version i've looked at (including KJV and
                  interlinear greek texts).....this is a teaching ive never heard
                  before, thats why I ask. And if I'm interpreting it correctly, you're
                  saying that you actually eat the body and blood of Christ. In my
                  reading, I see that Jesus called the bread and wine these things, but
                  it is not recorded that they actually became that, like in every
                  other miracle. Can you please tell me where I can find the scriptures
                  that teach this, or perhaps a link to a web site that explains it?

                  See, the thing about me is that I grew up atheist and got into new
                  age cults in middle/high school. Then I became a Christian and was
                  without a church for about a year, so the doctrine that I hold to and
                  believe in is what I have discovered in the new testament without
                  church telling me what I should or should not believe. If there is a
                  truth of God to be known here, I want to know it. God made his word
                  plain enough for any believer to understand...unless you use the
                  KJV...you need training and experience to understand that
                  translation ;), but I have never seen anything in scripture that
                  indicated this. If it's true, I want to believe it, but if it's true,
                  then there is scriptural support...i just dont know where to find it



                  > Those who take such a stand on tobacco, as that stance which the
                  > seminary in question (about which this whole discussion was
                  started)
                  > usually believe alcohol is a sin. They also claim then that Jesus
                  > didn't use wine in the Lord's Supper. Nor was it Christ' body and
                  > blodd in the sacrament. Nor....
                  >
                  > I bring it up because these are all reasons "I" personally would
                  not
                  > attend such a seminary.
                  >
                  > Todd
                • Jamie Cook
                  This is confusing to many non-Catholics. I am Baptist, but I have studied Catholocism. At the risk of offending (certainly without intention) any Catholics on
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 11, 2002
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                    This is confusing to many non-Catholics. I am Baptist, but I have studied Catholocism. At the risk of offending (certainly without intention) any Catholics on this list, I'll offer that one of the Popes (I forget which), decreed the teaching of transubstantiation (that the elements of communion actually BECOME the body and blood of Christ). In the Catholic church, the Pope actually has the authority to augment Scripture, to create doctrine. Thankfully, few Popes have ever abused that authority. I disagree with many Catholic teachings, but in no way do I believe that their Christianity is any less genuine that mine. We simply agree to disagree on doctrine. To do otherwise turns me into a Pharisee.
                    cmw328i wrote:no, i understand what kind of statement you are making, what confuses
                    me is when you say "Nor was it Christ' body and blood in the
                    sacrament."

                    is the sacrament another term for the Lord's supper/communion?

                    if so, then it doesnt make any sense to me because the gospels record
                    bread and wine in every version i've looked at (including KJV and
                    interlinear greek texts).....this is a teaching ive never heard
                    before, thats why I ask. And if I'm interpreting it correctly, you're
                    saying that you actually eat the body and blood of Christ. In my
                    reading, I see that Jesus called the bread and wine these things, but
                    it is not recorded that they actually became that, like in every
                    other miracle. Can you please tell me where I can find the scriptures
                    that teach this, or perhaps a link to a web site that explains it?

                    See, the thing about me is that I grew up atheist and got into new
                    age cults in middle/high school. Then I became a Christian and was
                    without a church for about a year, so the doctrine that I hold to and
                    believe in is what I have discovered in the new testament without
                    church telling me what I should or should not believe. If there is a
                    truth of God to be known here, I want to know it. God made his word
                    plain enough for any believer to understand...unless you use the
                    KJV...you need training and experience to understand that
                    translation ;), but I have never seen anything in scripture that
                    indicated this. If it's true, I want to believe it, but if it's true,
                    then there is scriptural support...i just dont know where to find it



                    > Those who take such a stand on tobacco, as that stance which the
                    > seminary in question (about which this whole discussion was
                    started)
                    > usually believe alcohol is a sin. They also claim then that Jesus
                    > didn't use wine in the Lord's Supper. Nor was it Christ' body and
                    > blodd in the sacrament. Nor....
                    >
                    > I bring it up because these are all reasons "I" personally would
                    not
                    > attend such a seminary.
                    >
                    > Todd


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                  • singingelk49
                    How does one smoke to God s ... Hi Guys! I tried to post last night under an old ID, and found out that I had been bounced. So, I ll try again. My old ID was
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 14, 2002
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                      How does one smoke to God's
                      > glory? I can think of a couple ways.

                      Hi Guys! I tried to post last night under an old ID, and found out
                      that I had been bounced. So, I'll try again. My old ID was
                      eagle_elk_99, but now it is singingelk49 but it is still me!

                      I have enjoyed reading through old posts, and it has been a long time
                      since I have been here. I found out that I had High Blood Preasure,
                      so I quit smoking my pipe, but I missed reading all your posts here
                      and at the estate pipe, and YPS.

                      Anyway, I'd like to offer a different worldview if I may. I am Native
                      American, and a pastor to native people. I consider myself very
                      conservative, but we minister in a contextual way so our metheods are
                      a bit different than what you might see in an average Sunday worship
                      service. Many of my friends actually "Pray" to Creator with their
                      pipe. While it isn't a nice brier, it is a pipe. We use things like
                      sage, sweetgrass, cedar, and tobacco to smudge with. Tobacco is
                      actually a sacrament in the native way of life. We honor God by
                      offering up our prayers with smoke, either by smudging with cedar,
                      sage, or sweetgrass, and by smoking a pipe with tobacco of course.
                      (Nothing else!) I know this all sounds different, but in order to
                      minister to native people, you have to overcome some cultural
                      boundries at times. I just thought I'd add my 2 cents worth.

                      Nshill (Be blessed)

                      Monty
                    • barley_shpc
                      Jamie, As a Catholic, I appreciate your statement - I know some Baptists, including some of my sisters in-laws, who deny that Catholics are Christian at all!
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 27, 2002
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                        Jamie,

                        As a Catholic, I appreciate your statement - I know some Baptists,
                        including some of my sisters in-laws, who deny that Catholics are
                        Christian at all!

                        As to popes, I would clarify...he does not have the authority to
                        AUGMENT scripture or to create doctrine - he has the authority to
                        DEFINE doctrine, but this definition can never go against what
                        scripture teaches. When the Church defines a doctrine, she does so
                        not to create a new teaching, but to categorically define what the
                        Church has always believed, usually because circumstances have made it
                        necessary often as the result of a heresy.

                        As to the teaching of transubstantiation, aside from Scriptures
                        already quoted, there is also the gospel of John, chapter 6,
                        specifically vs. 50-51 and 52(b)-56:

                        "This is the bread that comes down from heaven for a man to eat and
                        never die. I myself am the living bread come down from heaven. If
                        anyone eats this bread he shall live forever; the bread I will give is
                        my flesh, for the life of the world.

                        "...Let me solemnly assure you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son
                        of Man and drink of his blood, you have no life in you. He who feeds
                        on my flesh and drinks my blood has life eternal, and I will raise him
                        up on the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood real
                        drink. The man who feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in
                        me, and I in him."

                        Immediately after this, many of Jesus' followers left him, because
                        this teaching was too hard for them.

                        Mark




                        --- In christianpipesmokers@y..., Jamie Cook <jcook1701@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > This is confusing to many non-Catholics. I am Baptist, but I have
                        studied Catholocism. At the risk of offending (certainly without
                        intention) any Catholics on this list, I'll offer that one of the
                        Popes (I forget which), decreed the teaching of transubstantiation
                        (that the elements of communion actually BECOME the body and blood of
                        Christ). In the Catholic church, the Pope actually has the authority
                        to augment Scripture, to create doctrine. Thankfully, few Popes have
                        ever abused that authority. I disagree with many Catholic teachings,
                        but in no way do I believe that their Christianity is any less genuine
                        that mine. We simply agree to disagree on doctrine. To do otherwise
                        turns me into a Pharisee.
                        > cmw328i wrote:no, i understand what kind of statement you are
                        making, what confuses
                        > me is when you say "Nor was it Christ' body and blood in the
                        > sacrament."
                        >
                        > is the sacrament another term for the Lord's supper/communion?
                        >
                        > if so, then it doesnt make any sense to me because the gospels
                        record
                        > bread and wine in every version i've looked at (including KJV and
                        > interlinear greek texts).....this is a teaching ive never heard
                        > before, thats why I ask. And if I'm interpreting it correctly,
                        you're
                        > saying that you actually eat the body and blood of Christ. In my
                        > reading, I see that Jesus called the bread and wine these things,
                        but
                        > it is not recorded that they actually became that, like in every
                        > other miracle. Can you please tell me where I can find the
                        scriptures
                        > that teach this, or perhaps a link to a web site that explains it?
                        >
                        > See, the thing about me is that I grew up atheist and got into new
                        > age cults in middle/high school. Then I became a Christian and was
                        > without a church for about a year, so the doctrine that I hold to
                        and
                        > believe in is what I have discovered in the new testament without
                        > church telling me what I should or should not believe. If there is a
                        > truth of God to be known here, I want to know it. God made his word
                        > plain enough for any believer to understand...unless you use the
                        > KJV...you need training and experience to understand that
                        > translation ;), but I have never seen anything in scripture that
                        > indicated this. If it's true, I want to believe it, but if it's
                        true,
                        > then there is scriptural support...i just dont know where to find it
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > Those who take such a stand on tobacco, as that stance which the
                        > > seminary in question (about which this whole discussion was
                        > started)
                        > > usually believe alcohol is a sin. They also claim then that Jesus
                        > > didn't use wine in the Lord's Supper. Nor was it Christ' body and
                        > > blodd in the sacrament. Nor....
                        > >
                        > > I bring it up because these are all reasons "I" personally would
                        > not
                        > > attend such a seminary.
                        > >
                        > > Todd
                        >
                        >
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                      • Jamie Cook
                        Mark, Thanks for the lesson. That explained much for me. We still may disagree, but we can do it agreeably, in a good spirit. We would both agree, I m sure, on
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 27, 2002
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                          Mark,
                          Thanks for the lesson. That explained much for me. We still may disagree, but we can do it agreeably, in a good spirit. We would both agree, I'm sure, on the love of God through Christ. Thanks also for taking no offense at my comments. God bless.
                          barley_shpc wrote:Jamie,

                          As a Catholic, I appreciate your statement - I know some Baptists,
                          including some of my sisters in-laws, who deny that Catholics are
                          Christian at all!

                          As to popes, I would clarify...he does not have the authority to
                          AUGMENT scripture or to create doctrine - he has the authority to
                          DEFINE doctrine, but this definition can never go against what
                          scripture teaches. When the Church defines a doctrine, she does so
                          not to create a new teaching, but to categorically define what the
                          Church has always believed, usually because circumstances have made it
                          necessary often as the result of a heresy.

                          As to the teaching of transubstantiation, aside from Scriptures
                          already quoted, there is also the gospel of John, chapter 6,
                          specifically vs. 50-51 and 52(b)-56:

                          "This is the bread that comes down from heaven for a man to eat and
                          never die. I myself am the living bread come down from heaven. If
                          anyone eats this bread he shall live forever; the bread I will give is
                          my flesh, for the life of the world.

                          "...Let me solemnly assure you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son
                          of Man and drink of his blood, you have no life in you. He who feeds
                          on my flesh and drinks my blood has life eternal, and I will raise him
                          up on the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood real
                          drink. The man who feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in
                          me, and I in him."

                          Immediately after this, many of Jesus' followers left him, because
                          this teaching was too hard for them.

                          Mark




                          --- In christianpipesmokers@y..., Jamie Cook <jcook1701@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > This is confusing to many non-Catholics. I am Baptist, but I have
                          studied Catholocism. At the risk of offending (certainly without
                          intention) any Catholics on this list, I'll offer that one of the
                          Popes (I forget which), decreed the teaching of transubstantiation
                          (that the elements of communion actually BECOME the body and blood of
                          Christ). In the Catholic church, the Pope actually has the authority
                          to augment Scripture, to create doctrine. Thankfully, few Popes have
                          ever abused that authority. I disagree with many Catholic teachings,
                          but in no way do I believe that their Christianity is any less genuine
                          that mine. We simply agree to disagree on doctrine. To do otherwise
                          turns me into a Pharisee.
                          > cmw328i wrote:no, i understand what kind of statement you are
                          making, what confuses
                          > me is when you say "Nor was it Christ' body and blood in the
                          > sacrament."
                          >
                          > is the sacrament another term for the Lord's supper/communion?
                          >
                          > if so, then it doesnt make any sense to me because the gospels
                          record
                          > bread and wine in every version i've looked at (including KJV and
                          > interlinear greek texts).....this is a teaching ive never heard
                          > before, thats why I ask. And if I'm interpreting it correctly,
                          you're
                          > saying that you actually eat the body and blood of Christ. In my
                          > reading, I see that Jesus called the bread and wine these things,
                          but
                          > it is not recorded that they actually became that, like in every
                          > other miracle. Can you please tell me where I can find the
                          scriptures
                          > that teach this, or perhaps a link to a web site that explains it?
                          >
                          > See, the thing about me is that I grew up atheist and got into new
                          > age cults in middle/high school. Then I became a Christian and was
                          > without a church for about a year, so the doctrine that I hold to
                          and
                          > believe in is what I have discovered in the new testament without
                          > church telling me what I should or should not believe. If there is a
                          > truth of God to be known here, I want to know it. God made his word
                          > plain enough for any believer to understand...unless you use the
                          > KJV...you need training and experience to understand that
                          > translation ;), but I have never seen anything in scripture that
                          > indicated this. If it's true, I want to believe it, but if it's
                          true,
                          > then there is scriptural support...i just dont know where to find it
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > Those who take such a stand on tobacco, as that stance which the
                          > > seminary in question (about which this whole discussion was
                          > started)
                          > > usually believe alcohol is a sin. They also claim then that Jesus
                          > > didn't use wine in the Lord's Supper. Nor was it Christ' body and
                          > > blodd in the sacrament. Nor....
                          > >
                          > > I bring it up because these are all reasons "I" personally would
                          > not
                          > > attend such a seminary.
                          > >
                          > > Todd
                          >
                          >
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                        • barley_shpc
                          Actually, it s not really that foreign for me. Catholics and the Orthodox Churches use incense on a regular basis - while it is not tobacco, sage or
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 27, 2002
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                            Actually, it's not really that foreign for me. Catholics and
                            the Orthodox Churches use incense on a regular basis - while it is not
                            tobacco, sage or sweetgrass (frankincense often forms the bulk of the
                            incense mixture) the idea is the same...The smoke drifting up
                            symbolizes our prayers flying up to God. That's one of the things I
                            love about being Catholic - the immense treasury of symbols, little,
                            ordinary things, which, because of the history automatically call ones
                            mind to God, the Creator, and the wondrous gift of His love to His
                            children...fire, candles, sacred painting (often with colors which
                            themselves are symbolic - for instance Jesus is often pictured wearing
                            red, the symbol of divinity, with a mantel on top of it, symbolizing
                            humanity), incense, water, and on and on.

                            Mark


                            --- In christianpipesmokers@y..., "singingelk49" <singingelk49@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > How does one smoke to God's
                            > > glory? I can think of a couple ways.
                            >
                            > Hi Guys! I tried to post last night under an old ID, and found out
                            > that I had been bounced. So, I'll try again. My old ID was
                            > eagle_elk_99, but now it is singingelk49 but it is still me!
                            >
                            > I have enjoyed reading through old posts, and it has been a long
                            time
                            > since I have been here. I found out that I had High Blood Preasure,
                            > so I quit smoking my pipe, but I missed reading all your posts here
                            > and at the estate pipe, and YPS.
                            >
                            > Anyway, I'd like to offer a different worldview if I may. I am
                            Native
                            > American, and a pastor to native people. I consider myself very
                            > conservative, but we minister in a contextual way so our metheods
                            are
                            > a bit different than what you might see in an average Sunday worship
                            > service. Many of my friends actually "Pray" to Creator with their
                            > pipe. While it isn't a nice brier, it is a pipe. We use things like
                            > sage, sweetgrass, cedar, and tobacco to smudge with. Tobacco is
                            > actually a sacrament in the native way of life. We honor God by
                            > offering up our prayers with smoke, either by smudging with cedar,
                            > sage, or sweetgrass, and by smoking a pipe with tobacco of course.
                            > (Nothing else!) I know this all sounds different, but in order to
                            > minister to native people, you have to overcome some cultural
                            > boundries at times. I just thought I'd add my 2 cents worth.
                            >
                            > Nshill (Be blessed)
                            >
                            > Monty
                          • rongadz59
                            Mark, as a Catholic myself, I couldn t agree with you more. I love the traditions and rituals of the Catholic Church. During this sex scandal in the Church, I
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 28, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Mark, as a Catholic myself, I couldn't agree with you more.
                              I love the traditions and rituals of the Catholic Church.
                              During this sex scandal in the Church, I say we Catholics
                              need to stick together (especially us Catholic pipe smokers!)

                              -Ron

                              P.S. I'm happy and proud to announce and welcome the 10th
                              Archbishop of the diocese of Milwaukee, who will be installed
                              today--Reverand Timothy Dolan (of St. Louis).



                              --- In christianpipesmokers@y..., barley_shpc <no_reply@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > Actually, it's not really that foreign for me. Catholics
                              and
                              > the Orthodox Churches use incense on a regular basis -
                              while it is not
                              > tobacco, sage or sweetgrass (frankincense often forms the
                              bulk of the
                              > incense mixture) the idea is the same...The smoke drifting
                              up
                              > symbolizes our prayers flying up to God. That's one of the
                              things I
                              > love about being Catholic - the immense treasury of
                              symbols, little,
                              > ordinary things, which, because of the history
                              automatically call ones
                              > mind to God, the Creator, and the wondrous gift of His love
                              to His
                              > children...fire, candles, sacred painting (often with
                              colors which
                              > themselves are symbolic - for instance Jesus is often
                              pictured wearing
                              > red, the symbol of divinity, with a mantel on top of it,
                              symbolizing
                              > humanity), incense, water, and on and on.
                              >
                              > Mark
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In christianpipesmokers@y..., "singingelk49"
                              <singingelk49@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > How does one smoke to God's
                              > > > glory? I can think of a couple ways.
                              > >
                              > > Hi Guys! I tried to post last night under an old ID, and
                              found out
                              > > that I had been bounced. So, I'll try again. My old ID
                              was
                              > > eagle_elk_99, but now it is singingelk49 but it is still
                              me!
                              > >
                              > > I have enjoyed reading through old posts, and it has been
                              a long
                              > time
                              > > since I have been here. I found out that I had High Blood
                              Preasure,
                              > > so I quit smoking my pipe, but I missed reading all your
                              posts here
                              > > and at the estate pipe, and YPS.
                              > >
                              > > Anyway, I'd like to offer a different worldview if I may.
                              I am
                              > Native
                              > > American, and a pastor to native people. I consider
                              myself very
                              > > conservative, but we minister in a contextual way so our
                              metheods
                              > are
                              > > a bit different than what you might see in an average
                              Sunday worship
                              > > service. Many of my friends actually "Pray" to Creator
                              with their
                              > > pipe. While it isn't a nice brier, it is a pipe. We use
                              things like
                              > > sage, sweetgrass, cedar, and tobacco to smudge with.
                              Tobacco is
                              > > actually a sacrament in the native way of life. We honor
                              God by
                              > > offering up our prayers with smoke, either by smudging
                              with cedar,
                              > > sage, or sweetgrass, and by smoking a pipe with tobacco
                              of course.
                              > > (Nothing else!) I know this all sounds different, but in
                              order to
                              > > minister to native people, you have to overcome some
                              cultural
                              > > boundries at times. I just thought I'd add my 2 cents
                              worth.
                              > >
                              > > Nshill (Be blessed)
                              > >
                              > > Monty
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