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Re: Lot of Bouncing mail

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  • Declan Moriarty
    On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 10:14:20AM -0800, Roger Morella enlightened us thusly ... People generally don t calmly debate these things but flare up into massive
    Message 1 of 35 , Jan 1, 2004
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      On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 10:14:20AM -0800, Roger Morella enlightened us
      thusly
      >
      > >>On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 08:44:20AM -0800, Roger Morella enlightened
      > >>us thusly
      > >>
      > >> Unfortunately, as frightening as it sounds, what our current email
      > >> system lacks is a layer of bureaucracy to protect it from abuse. Oh
      > >> well... welcome to the real world.
      >
      > > Declan Moriarty responded as such: Look Roger,
      >
      > > Asking netizens to support beaurocracratic interference is less
      > > likely to succeed than asking turkeys to vote for Christmas &
      > > Thanksgiving,
      > or
      > > asking demons to vote for Armageddon.
      >
      > > The facts are, that whatever the system, people will crack it. Real
      > > concerted attempts were made to prevent breach of copyright in the
      > music
      > > world, with only minor and limited success. And that had the
      > worldwide
      > > support that your suggestions don't yet have.
      >
      > > Whether it would be a better system is anyone's guess. Whether a
      > > beaurocracy is capable of running anything to everyone's
      > > satisfacytion yet remains to be proved. But I see little point in
      > > debating this, as
      > it
      > > will never happen.
      >
      > In any case, I agree that this isn't the proper forum for debating the
      > issue. I would like to move this thread to a more applicable news
      > group, rather than continue to "politically spam" this one ;) Any
      > suggestions for where I can find a news group where people debate
      > politically sensitive technical issues?

      People generally don't calmly debate these things but flare up into
      massive flame wars ;-).

      That said, you want to search out software development types or
      sysadmins who are face to face with the smtp protocol, or the
      implementation of standards.

      The major smtp servers are sendmail, postfix, qmail, exim, & mebbe one
      or two others. My isp uses Intermail. They are useful words for
      searching. You can find the individual sites in most cases as
      http://www.program-name.org, or on http://www.sourceforge.net

      You may even try a mail to the qmail author, but your answer
      would probably be brusque, irritated and totally complicated. I know of
      nobody who displays a more in depth knowledge of the tcp/ip protocol.
      I'm sure they exist - I just don't know them. A pity he's such an
      (expletive deleted).

      http://cr.yp.to BTW a health warning: He's start raving bonkers!

      --

      With best Regards,


      Declan Moriarty.
      --
      Author: Declan Moriarty
      INET: tech.genius@...

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    • Jaap van Ganswijk
      ... Your solution is just another new highly regulated system next to the existing (problematical) system. How will it ever replace the old system? Will you
      Message 35 of 35 , Jan 1, 2004
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        At 2003-12-30 16:24, Roger Morella wrote:
        >Bob has missed the point that my idea was a VOLUNTARY ALTERNATIVE. I am
        >completely serious, as this has become a serious issue. This has long
        >passed the point of "hitting the delete key a few times". And the cat
        >and mouse filter game will NEVER provide an adequate solution. As a
        >matter of fact, filters just make matters worse. The better the filters
        >get, the more spam a spammer has to send out in order to get the same
        >number of "hits". Ironically, better filters gaurentee a proportionately
        >higher number of spam. This is not a problem if you happen to be someone
        >who is good at tuning spam filters, and has the time to deal with them.
        >But for the 99.99% of us who have neithor the time, technical abilities
        >or patience, we can no longer trust the system as it stands, thereby
        >limiting it to a necessary evil to be used only with a redundant backup
        >at hand.
        >
        >The only solution that will work is to provide an alternative service
        >that is not subject to the abuse that our current unregulated email
        >services allow. You do that by providing a service that restricts use
        >to only those who are willing to pay for it. The US Postal Service has
        >been providing a valuable service at a reasonable cost since it's
        >inception. It seems completely logical to me that they would be in a
        >position to do the same thing with email. It's a fairly simple and
        >obvious solution, as far as I'm concerned. And, Bob, don't worry... the
        >government will never take away your right to waste your time and
        >resources as you see fit. After-all, email as it currently exists will
        >always be an option.
        >
        >Now. If someone has a reason, other than paranoia, that this approach
        >won't work, I'd really like to hear it.

        Your 'solution' is just another new highly regulated system next
        to the existing (problematical) system. How will it ever replace
        the old system? Will you yourself no longer accept regular emails?
        I can't afford to, because I have way too many contacts and people
        contacting me via regular email.

        What you're suggesting is something like that we all throw away our
        VHS-recorders today and all buy Betamax's again tomorrow. But that
        is not how the world and the internet work. You can't expect the
        whole world to write-off all of it's old investments overnight.

        And as Declan pointed out, the USA is not the world and it's a very
        global problem. The Dutch postal service is very reliable but in the
        USA, Federal Express, UPS etc. surfaced, I assume because the US
        Postal Service wasn't reliable or quick enough (?).

        I agree that a small payment ($0.01 or so) per email would work wonders
        if it were enforcable, but it isn't because it's not present in the
        current protocols and servers and it's very expensive to implement.
        Please consider that in telephony traditionally about half of the
        hardware cost was spend on keeping track of the costs per call and
        per time unit etc. (Which was also the reason why local calls used
        to be for free or did cost only one tick in large parts of the world).

        I think that version 6 of the IP protocol can keep track of costs,
        but it's still in the middle of being introduced in the major
        systems.

        A philosophy of some friends and me is that only new consumer
        technology that is about 10 times as good can replace older
        technology in a non-compatible way.

        Technology changes that succeeded:
        - LP to CD
        - Videotape to DVD (still busy)
        - the addition of teletext in Europe

        Technology changes that didn't succeed:
        - Analogue telephony to ISDN
        - Video tape to optical movie disk

        (Of course IPV6 will be slowly introduced because it's compatible.)

        Greetings,
        Jaap

        --
        Author: Jaap van Ganswijk
        INET: ganswijk@...

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