Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: RS232 mouse problems (was: Re: Beefier MAX232 or other

Expand Messages
  • David Timmins
    OK so if the mouse gets its power from say DTR, what does DTR do when the mouse is plugged in? ie does it sag? If it is the mouse supply that sags, then maybe
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 1998
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      OK so if the mouse gets its power from say DTR, what does DTR do when the
      mouse is plugged in? ie does it sag? If it is the mouse supply that sags,
      then maybe you do need more power. What size caps do you use on the MAX232
      charge pump? My data says 1uF for all 4.

      David Timmins

      --
      Author: David Timmins
      INET: dtimmins@...

      Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
      San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
      to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
      the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
      (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
      also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    • Mario Becroft
      ... No, in fact the mouse is not getting that power from the MAX232 at all. The only power that the MAX232 is supplying is the TXD signal which is permanently
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 1, 1998
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, David Timmins wrote:

        > OK so if the mouse gets its power from say DTR, what does DTR do when the
        > mouse is plugged in? ie does it sag? If it is the mouse supply that sags,

        No, in fact the mouse is not getting that power from the MAX232 at all.
        The only power that the MAX232 is supplying is the TXD signal which is
        permanently at a RS232 logic high, or negative voltage. The DTR signal is
        not supplied by the MAX232, but by a +5V supply, which is within the RS232
        specification of 3V to 15V.

        What made me think it was the MAX232 not being able to deliver enough
        power, was that one of the mice I tried actually seemed to power the whole
        mouse from the TXD signal. But as it turns out, the problem happens even
        with other mice that don't do this.

        I tried both 1uF and 10uF caps on the MAX232, but it didn't make any
        difference at all.

        What did help was supplying the DTR and RTS signals from which the mouse
        gets its power from the MAX232 which outputs about +10V, instead of the
        +5V supply. However, previously I had been using both MAX232 outputs to
        drive TXD. When I took one away to do DTR and RTS, the MAX232 could no
        longer supply enough power to TXD. It seems the mouse's optical sensors
        are powered from TXD, because the mouse would start moving erratically in
        that case, as if the sensors were not functioning correctly.

        Fortunately I have discovered a workaround, that is adding a 5K resistor
        between RXD and +5V. This pulls the mouse's low output up to a level where
        the MAX232 can recognise it. It is rather a kludge, but it has worked on
        every mouse I have tried so far.

        Part of the trouble is that board space and cost are very important, so I
        really need a cheap and compact method - which the MAX232 suits perfectly,
        except for that difficult problem...

        --
        Mario Becroft Auckland, New Zealand
        mb@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/ |\__/,| (`\
        Tariland, Atari Support in New Zealand _.|o o |_ ) )
        tariland@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/tariland/ --(((---(((--------

        --
        Author: Mario Becroft
        INET: mb@...

        Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
        San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
        to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
        the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
        (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
        also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
      • David Timmins
        My data shows the MAX232 as having two RS232 drivers - if the second one is uncommitted you could use it to supply power to the mouse via DTR say and tie it so
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 1, 1998
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          My data shows the MAX232 as having two RS232 drivers - if the second one is
          uncommitted you could use it to supply power to the mouse via DTR say and
          tie it so its output is permanently high.

          David

          On Monday, June 01, 1998 8:31 PM, Mario Becroft [SMTP:mb@...] wrote:
          > On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, David Timmins wrote:
          >
          > > OK so if the mouse gets its power from say DTR, what does DTR do when
          the
          > > mouse is plugged in? ie does it sag? If it is the mouse supply that
          sags,
          >
          > No, in fact the mouse is not getting that power from the MAX232 at all.
          > The only power that the MAX232 is supplying is the TXD signal which is
          > permanently at a RS232 logic high, or negative voltage. The DTR signal is
          > not supplied by the MAX232, but by a +5V supply, which is within the
          RS232
          > specification of 3V to 15V.
          >
          > What made me think it was the MAX232 not being able to deliver enough
          > power, was that one of the mice I tried actually seemed to power the
          whole
          > mouse from the TXD signal. But as it turns out, the problem happens even
          > with other mice that don't do this.
          >
          > I tried both 1uF and 10uF caps on the MAX232, but it didn't make any
          > difference at all.
          >
          > What did help was supplying the DTR and RTS signals from which the mouse
          > gets its power from the MAX232 which outputs about +10V, instead of the
          > +5V supply. However, previously I had been using both MAX232 outputs to
          > drive TXD. When I took one away to do DTR and RTS, the MAX232 could no
          > longer supply enough power to TXD. It seems the mouse's optical sensors
          > are powered from TXD, because the mouse would start moving erratically in
          > that case, as if the sensors were not functioning correctly.
          >
          > Fortunately I have discovered a workaround, that is adding a 5K resistor
          > between RXD and +5V. This pulls the mouse's low output up to a level
          where
          > the MAX232 can recognise it. It is rather a kludge, but it has worked on
          > every mouse I have tried so far.
          >
          > Part of the trouble is that board space and cost are very important, so I
          > really need a cheap and compact method - which the MAX232 suits
          perfectly,
          > except for that difficult problem...
          >
          > --
          > Mario Becroft Auckland, New Zealand
          > mb@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/ |\__/,|
          (`\
          > Tariland, Atari Support in New Zealand _.|o o |_
          ) )
          > tariland@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/tariland/
          --(((---(((--------
          >
          > --
          > Author: Mario Becroft
          > INET: mb@...
          >
          > Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
          > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
          > to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
          > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
          > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
          > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
          >

          --
          Author: David Timmins
          INET: dtimmins@...

          Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
          San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
          --------------------------------------------------------------------
          To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
          to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
          the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
          (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
          also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
        • Mario Becroft
          ... Like I tried to explain before, at the moment I m using *both* MAX232 outputs tied together to provide TXD. Otherwise the MAX232 can t provide enough power
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 1, 1998
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, David Timmins wrote:

            > My data shows the MAX232 as having two RS232 drivers - if the second one is
            > uncommitted you could use it to supply power to the mouse via DTR say and
            > tie it so its output is permanently high.

            Like I tried to explain before, at the moment I'm using *both* MAX232
            outputs tied together to provide TXD. Otherwise the MAX232 can't provide
            enough power for TXD. That leaves no outputs left for what you suggest,
            unfortunately.

            --
            Mario Becroft Auckland, New Zealand
            mb@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/ |\__/,| (`\
            Tariland, Atari Support in New Zealand _.|o o |_ ) )
            tariland@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/tariland/ --(((---(((--------

            --
            Author: Mario Becroft
            INET: mb@...

            Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
            San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
            to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
            the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
            (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
            also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
          • David Timmins
            ... Sorry I missed this point in your emails. I had a re-read at some of your other postings - correct me if I am wrong but you have tried connecting one of
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 2, 1998
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              > Like I tried to explain before, at the moment I'm using *both* MAX232
              > outputs tied together to provide TXD. Otherwise the MAX232 can't provide
              > enough power for TXD. That leaves no outputs left for what you suggest,
              > unfortunately.

              Sorry I missed this point in your emails. I had a re-read at some of your
              other postings - correct me if I am wrong but you have tried connecting one
              of the driver high and another low so that you get good supplies, but then
              the optical sensor doesn't work properly.

              I suppose there is one last thing I suggest you could try - I assume a
              mouse will be designed to generate internal + and - supplies from any input
              signal using some sort of diode/cap system. You could try connecting the
              inputs to the DTR and TXD buffer to an oscillator to make them swing in
              both directions - depending on how the mouse uses the internal power this
              may work. It is a bit of a long shot though.

              Alternatively do you have an unregulated supply around that you could use
              for something higher than +5 volts?


              David Timmins

              --
              Author: David Timmins
              INET: dtimmins@...

              Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
              San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
              --------------------------------------------------------------------
              To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
              to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
              the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
              (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
              also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
            • Andrew Ingraham
              Sorry if this was already mentioned, but ... Have you tried asking Maxim about this problem? This sounds like something their Tech Support staff should be
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 2, 1998
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Sorry if this was already mentioned, but ...

                Have you tried asking Maxim about this problem?

                This sounds like something their Tech Support staff should be handling.

                Regards,
                Andy


                --
                Author: Andrew Ingraham
                INET: Andrew.Ingraham@...

                Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
              • Mario Becroft
                ... It seems there is no simple answer to this problem. One way may be to make my own high-impedence RS232 receiver. I think I should be able to get away with
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 3, 1998
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Andrew Ingraham wrote:

                  > Sorry if this was already mentioned, but ...
                  >
                  > Have you tried asking Maxim about this problem?
                  >
                  > This sounds like something their Tech Support staff should be handling.

                  It seems there is no simple answer to this problem. One way may be to make
                  my own high-impedence RS232 receiver. I think I should be able to get away
                  with just the RXD line going via a diode to my MCU input pin. Then the
                  mouse would have no problems driving it, surely!

                  I still think there must be some chip somewhere like the MAX232 that has
                  less load on its inputs. I only have to find it!

                  Surely there is someone here who has had some experience with serial mice?

                  Yes I'll try contacting Maxim and Linear etc and see what they have to
                  say.

                  Thanks for all your good suggestions.

                  --
                  Mario Becroft Auckland, New Zealand
                  mb@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/ |\__/,| (`\
                  Tariland, Atari Support in New Zealand _.|o o |_ ) )
                  tariland@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/tariland/ --(((---(((--------

                  --
                  Author: Mario Becroft
                  INET: mb@...

                  Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                  San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                  to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                  the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                  (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                  also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
                • P. Faasse
                  Hello Mario, I have used the following RS232 interface quite a lot. In the receiver part you cold perhaps even skip the 74HC14 inverter. I do of course not
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 3, 1998
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Mario,

                    I have used the following RS232 interface quite a lot.
                    In the receiver part you cold perhaps even skip the 74HC14
                    inverter. I do of course not know if you use a hardware UART of
                    a controller to receive RS232, In that case you would need the
                    inverter. I made up this circuit mainly to get a very low-power
                    RS232- compatible interface. The input impedance of this thing
                    is certainly quite high.

                    > It seems there is no simple answer to this problem. One way may be to make
                    > my own high-impedence RS232 receiver. I think I should be able to get away
                    > with just the RXD line going via a diode to my MCU input pin. Then the
                    > mouse would have no problems driving it, surely!


                    In the race to reduce power in my microcontroller systems I
                    have quite frequently replaced MAX232 circuits by simple 74HC14
                    chips. The 74HC14 will, of course, not deliver the 'standard'
                    +/- 12 Volts. A simple circuit with 74HC14's can give you an
                    excellent RS232 connection. An RS232 output driver consists of
                    an inverter of the 74HC04 with a 100 Ohm resistor. An RS232
                    receiver is made with the following circuit:


                    1/6 74HC14
                    RS232 input 10 KOhm |\
                    o----------->|----[||||]------+----+-------| >o-----> TTL input
                    DIODE | | |/
                    --- +++
                    / | |
                    4.7 Volts / | |
                    zener diode / \ +++ 100 KOhm
                    --- |
                    | |
                    | |
                    --- ---
                    /// ///

                    RS232 receiver interface with 74HC14
                    ------------------------------------



                    1/6 74HC14
                    RS232 output 100 Ohm /|
                    o--------------[||||]------o< |--------o TTL output
                    \|


                    RS232 transmitter output with 74HC14
                    ------------------------------------

                    I used to make this circuit with 74HC04's, now I started using
                    74HC14's. The 74HC14 has hysteresis inputs. Power drain of these
                    driver/receiver combinations is about nil, and you get 6
                    transmitters/receivers in any combination you like per 14-pins
                    package. The cost is of course some more passive components.

                    Hope it helps,

                    Greetings,

                    Peter Faasse

                    --
                    P.R. Faasse co: NLR, postbus 90502, 1006BM Amsterdam
                    E-Mail: faasse@... Phone: 020-5113382
                    --
                    Author:
                    INET: faasse@...

                    Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                    to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
                  • Mario Becroft
                    ... That is basically what I was thinking of... no I m not using a UART, so no inverter would be necessary. I ve now found some mice that even under no load it
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 3, 1998
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, P. Faasse wrote:

                      > I have used the following RS232 interface quite a lot.

                      That is basically what I was thinking of... no I'm not using a UART, so no
                      inverter would be necessary.

                      I've now found some mice that even under no load it only outputs just over
                      2V for the RS232 logic low. This won't be enough to reliably drive the MCU
                      pin. I only just found this mouse now. I think the mouse must be assuming
                      that the power supply on the DTR and RTS pins is something like the 12V it
                      would be in a PC, whereas I'm only giving it 5V.

                      What can I do but find a way of giving more than 5V to the mouse?

                      All I can think of is to put on yet more circuitry to give the mouse a
                      higher voltage on DTR and RTS, more than 5V. The mouse also requires at
                      least -5V supply on TXD. So how can I produce, from a 5V supply, say +/-
                      8V with a bit more current than the MAX232 is capable of (say 20mA-30mA on
                      both the + and - supply) cheaply and compact? It seems this is the only
                      real answer.

                      Well thanks for all the suggestions. I don't seem to be much closer to
                      solving this, but I think that's because it can't be solved easily. The
                      cost (and board space) is what makes it difficult.

                      --
                      Mario Becroft Auckland, New Zealand
                      mb@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/ |\__/,| (`\
                      Tariland, Atari Support in New Zealand _.|o o |_ ) )
                      tariland@... http://www.pl.net/~mario/tariland/ --(((---(((--------

                      --
                      Author: Mario Becroft
                      INET: mb@...

                      Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                      San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------
                      To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                      to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                      the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                      (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                      also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
                    • David Timmins
                      ... There are other MAX devices in the +5 Volt powered RS232 driver range - the MAX234 has 4 RS232 drivers that you could use to power a mouse. It has no
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 4, 1998
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > What can I do but find a way of giving more than 5V to the mouse?

                        There are other MAX devices in the +5 Volt powered RS232 driver" range -
                        the MAX234 has 4 RS232 drivers that you could use to power a mouse. It has
                        no receivers but maybe you can get away with a diode clipper circuit if
                        the mouse has good supply rails.

                        David


                        --
                        Author: David Timmins
                        INET: dtimmins@...

                        Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                        San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------
                        To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                        to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                        the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                        (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                        also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
                      • James Afford
                        Just a thought, but if you are using (or going to use) a diode clipper to Receive RS232 signals, why not use the 7660 to supply -5V to the mice. Regards James
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 4, 1998
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Just a thought, but if you are using (or going to use) a diode clipper to
                          Receive RS232 signals, why not use the 7660 to supply -5V to the mice.

                          Regards
                          James Afford

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: root@... [mailto:root@...]On Behalf Of David
                          > Timmins
                          > Sent: Friday, June 05, 1998 7:02 AM
                          > To: Multiple recipients of list CHIPDIR-L
                          > Subject: RE: RS232 mouse problems (was: Re: Beefier MAX232 or other
                          >
                          >
                          > > What can I do but find a way of giving more than 5V to the mouse?
                          >
                          > There are other MAX devices in the +5 Volt powered RS232 driver" range -
                          > the MAX234 has 4 RS232 drivers that you could use to power a mouse. It has
                          > no receivers but maybe you can get away with a diode clipper circuit if
                          > the mouse has good supply rails.
                          >
                          > David
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Author: David Timmins
                          > INET: dtimmins@...
                          >
                          > Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                          > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                          > to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                          > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                          > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                          > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
                          >

                          --
                          Author:
                          INET: rhonda@...

                          Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                          San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                          to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                          the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                          (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                          also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
                        • David Timmins
                          ... The mice seem to be unable to tolerate running from low voltages, and will probably need + and - 10 volts to work. He is currently running from +5 and -10
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 4, 1998
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > Just a thought, but if you are using (or going to use) a diode clipper to
                            > Receive RS232 signals, why not use the 7660 to supply -5V to the mice.

                            The mice seem to be unable to tolerate running from low voltages, and will
                            probably need + and - 10 volts to work. He is currently running from +5 and
                            -10 volts and (as I understand it)operation is marginal.

                            David

                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: root@... [mailto:root@...]On Behalf Of David
                            > > Timmins
                            > > Sent: Friday, June 05, 1998 7:02 AM
                            > > To: Multiple recipients of list CHIPDIR-L
                            > > Subject: RE: RS232 mouse problems (was: Re: Beefier MAX232 or other
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > What can I do but find a way of giving more than 5V to the mouse?
                            > >
                            > > There are other MAX devices in the +5 Volt powered RS232 driver" range
                            -
                            > > the MAX234 has 4 RS232 drivers that you could use to power a mouse. It
                            has
                            > > no receivers but maybe you can get away with a diode clipper circuit
                            if
                            > > the mouse has good supply rails.
                            > >
                            > > David
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > Author: David Timmins
                            > > INET: dtimmins@...
                            > >
                            > > Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                            > > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                            > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                            > > to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                            > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                            > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                            > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Author:
                            > INET: rhonda@...
                            >
                            > Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                            > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                            > to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                            > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                            > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                            > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
                            >

                            --
                            Author: David Timmins
                            INET: dtimmins@...

                            Fat City Network Services -- (619) 538-5051 FAX: (619) 538-5051
                            San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
                            to: ListGuru@... (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
                            the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB CHIPDIR-L
                            (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
                            also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.