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Re: Geneva Convetions are applicable (was: Nord-Ost Hostage-takers...) to Marius

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  • Norbert Strade
    ... Mikhail, There are lots of witness reports now that the hostage-takers in the theatre hall were unconscious and finished off deliberately. IMO, they were
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 30, 2002
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      Mikhail Ramendik wrote:

      > Hello,
      >
      > Saturday, November 30, 2002, 5:33:55 AM, Norbert Strade <nost@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Of course this doesn't relieve the Russian authorities from
      > > following their own laws and the international conventions they have
      > > signed. Killing the hostage-takers while they were unconscious was
      > > simple murder.
      >
      > NOT killing them, thus giving them a slight chance to twitch in sleep
      > and detonate the bombs, would have been akin to murder. (How many
      > bombs there were, and what was the real intention, is not rlevant
      > here; the soldiers had to assume the wordt).

      Mikhail,

      There are lots of witness reports now that the hostage-takers in the
      theatre hall were unconscious and "finished off" deliberately. IMO, they
      were killed, not because of the usual brutality of the Russian "law
      enforcement" (which showed its humanism by gassing 100+ - in the best
      case - of their own citizens in order to "rescue" them), but because the
      authorities wanted nobody left to eventually talk about the background
      of this provocation. I'm more convinced now than at the beginning of
      these events that the whole thing was a carefully orchestrated KGB (or
      possibly GRU) action. Which doesn't necessarily mean that all the
      hostage-takers had to know about this, but some surely did.
      It's also quite interesting that the Russian authorities still haven't
      "solved" the identity of a large part of the terrorists. Compare this
      with some bomb explosions where they already have the "names, addresses
      and phone numbers" (to quote the KGB ringleader) a few seconds after (or
      before) they happened. It might be that there are people among them
      whose identity they won't be too happy to disclose.

      Well, I'm quite sure that this terrorist act will be fully investigated,
      and those really responsible will be exposed - one day.

      > > Creating special legislation in order to deprive the families of the
      > > right to bury them is a crime against humanity, committed by
      > > Russia's so-called parliament.
      >
      > I think that NOT DETAINING the people who came to claim the bodies was
      > at best negligence. These people could be accomplices, and besides,
      > they could have information about the connections of the terrorists.

      We all know that you are in favour of collective punishment, and this
      doesn't need more comments.

      > > Burying them in unmarked graves and
      > > in pig-skins, in order to humiliate them or to achieve some
      > > superstitious goals, is an insult against civilization.
      >
      > Against the very civilization that was CREATED by such methods?

      I guess that our concepts of "civilization" differ fundamentally.

      > Everything had to be done to ensure nobody would want to repeat the
      > act. Including a crackdown in Chechnya. Negotiations are possible.
      > Surrender to terrorist demands - I mean the terrorists who took
      > hostages in Moscow, not all Chechen fighters - is not possible at all.
      > Not in any country of the world with sane leadership.
      >
      > The fate of the terrorists who took the Japanese embassy in Peru
      > should be an example. No one of them survived, and no goals which they
      > claimed were achieved.

      It's quite ironic in this connection that one of the actions that lead
      to the downfall of criminal crook Fujimori was the fact that his
      security forces had murdered most hostage-takers after they had
      surrendered, and apparently on orders from the government. This turned
      out to be inacceptable - in Peru.

      > > Since this
      > > apparently can happen with the direct approval from the highest
      > > echelons of power, it shows more clearly than anything else that the
      > > Russian state has once more fallen into the hands of medieval,
      > > immoral and absolutely unscrupulous madmen.
      >
      > If there is something immoral in dealing with terrorists, it is giving
      > in to their demands.

      The civilisatory state of a leadership also shows in their dealing with
      their enemies. If they find it correct to deny criminals a decent burial
      and to treat their dead bodies in extremely barbarous ways in order to
      humiliate their religious beliefs, it only confirms once more that they
      haven't advanced in their mental and moral development since the 16th
      century. It also confirms that Putin's psychologically interesting
      rantings about Muslims aren't accidental.

      Best regards,
      Norbert
    • mariuslab2002
      ... -snip- I m more convinced now than at the beginning of ... (or ... haven t ... this ... addresses ... after (or ... Norbert, This is on the assumption that
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 30, 2002
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        --- In chechnya-sl@y..., Norbert Strade <nost@p...> wrote:
        >
        -snip-

        I'm more convinced now than at the beginning of
        > these events that the whole thing was a carefully orchestrated KGB
        (or
        > possibly GRU) action. Which doesn't necessarily mean that all the
        > hostage-takers had to know about this, but some surely did.
        > It's also quite interesting that the Russian authorities still
        haven't
        > "solved" the identity of a large part of the terrorists. Compare
        this
        > with some bomb explosions where they already have the "names,
        addresses
        > and phone numbers" (to quote the KGB ringleader) a few seconds
        after (or
        > before) they happened. It might be that there are people among them
        > whose identity they won't be too happy to disclose.

        Norbert,

        This is on the assumption that Basayev didn't lie when he said that
        he ordered this operation - in this case your speculation doesn't
        make sense. That would mean, that Basayev also works for FSB or GRU,
        and that's a total nonsens. Of course, it's totally plausible that
        Barayev's group had to bribe someone or some groups from police or
        secret services in Moscow to reach this theatre fully armed and with
        explosives, but that still doesn't mean that the theatre siege was a
        carefully orchestrated KGB or GRU action.
        Of course, death of all, allegedly 41 hostage takers can look
        suspicious to anyone, specially that not even one got wounded and was
        taken prisoner.


        > It's quite ironic in this connection that one of the actions that
        lead
        > to the downfall of criminal crook Fujimori was the fact that his
        > security forces had murdered most hostage-takers after they had
        > surrendered, and apparently on orders from the government. This
        turned out to be inacceptable - in Peru.
        >

        Anyone would agree with your description of Fujimori. But, I never
        heard myself that those Tupac Amaru terrorists (there were 14 of
        them) wanted to surrender and then Peru's forces murdered them in
        cold blood. As far as I know they assaulted the embassy from all
        sides, from the top, and an underground tunnel, that was dug by them
        during 4 months of siege. 8 hostage takers were playing football
        (soccer) at the embassy's courtyard, when the assault took place and
        got killed right away.
        I actually have friend who's from Peru, and I'll ask him about your
        story that hostage takers were murdered on the orders from the
        government while surrendering, and that was the downfall of Fujimori.

        AP had a little bit on this operation, at the below link:

        http://www.beloitdailynews.com/497/peru23.htm

        Best,
        Marius


        > Best regards,
        > Norbert
      • Johan Lagerfelt
        Dear Kai, and list, Thank you for clearing up that important fact. Thank you also for posting the relevant link for all of us to log on to when we desire. I
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2002
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          Dear Kai, and list,

          Thank you for clearing up that important fact. Thank you also for
          posting the relevant link for all of us to log on to when we desire. I
          think that it's important that we all check the fundaments of
          international law and humanitarian rights for ourselves, than way we
          won't be fooled by suggestions and claims from the little
          lieutenant-colonel or his co-conspirators about these treaties not
          applying to certain individuals. Let us not forget that according to
          these treaties, certain rights are regarded as non-negotiable, in other
          words they apply to one and all. Even the most unsavoury serial murderer
          has the right to a fair trial and to be confronted by the evidence
          against him/her. Thus these rights will also apply to both Saddam
          Hussein and Vladimir Putin when they finally end up in court.

          Sincerely

          Johan Lagerfelt

          kai_ivari wrote:
        • Gargoyle
          ... That s right, the female terrorists were shot when attempting to surrender, one male terrorists was shot dead when already handcuffed in the garden (with a
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 3, 2002
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            > Anyone would agree with your description of Fujimori. But, I never
            > heard myself that those Tupac Amaru terrorists (there were 14 of
            > them) wanted to surrender and then Peru's forces murdered them in
            > cold blood. As far as I know they assaulted the embassy from all
            > sides, from the top, and an underground tunnel, that was dug by them
            > during 4 months of siege. 8 hostage takers were playing football
            > (soccer) at the embassy's courtyard, when the assault took place and
            > got killed right away.
            > I actually have friend who's from Peru, and I'll ask him about your
            > story that hostage takers were murdered on the orders from the
            > government while surrendering, and that was the downfall of Fujimori.

            That's right, the female terrorists were shot when attempting to
            surrender, one male terrorists was shot dead when already handcuffed
            in the garden (with a Japanese ex-hostage eye witness) and also all
            the uncouncious/dead bodies were shot in the head "just for sure".

            Peru's ex-leader accused of ordering death of rebels
            Bodies of hostage-takers exhumed in siege inquiry
            http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,451371,00.html



            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            Portal INTERIA.PL zaprasza... >>> http://link.interia.pl/f167c
          • mariuslab2002
            ... them ... and ... Fujimori. ... Dear Norbert, Gorgoyle in his posting #28038 has already answered my question and friend of mine Javiar from Peru has
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 3, 2002
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              --- In chechnya-sl@y..., "mariuslab2002" <mariuslab@s...> wrote:
              >
              --- In chechnya-sl@y..., Norbert Strade <nost@p...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              >
              > > It's quite ironic in this connection that one of the actions that
              > lead
              > > to the downfall of criminal crook Fujimori was the fact that his
              > > security forces had murdered most hostage-takers after they had
              > > surrendered, and apparently on orders from the government. This
              > turned out to be inacceptable - in Peru.
              > >
              >
              > Anyone would agree with your description of Fujimori. But, I never
              > heard myself that those Tupac Amaru terrorists (there were 14 of
              > them) wanted to surrender and then Peru's forces murdered them in
              > cold blood. As far as I know they assaulted the embassy from all
              > sides, from the top, and an underground tunnel, that was dug by
              them
              > during 4 months of siege. 8 hostage takers were playing football
              > (soccer) at the embassy's courtyard, when the assault took place
              and
              > got killed right away.
              > I actually have friend who's from Peru, and I'll ask him about your
              > story that hostage takers were murdered on the orders from the
              > government while surrendering, and that was the downfall of
              Fujimori.
              >
              > AP had a little bit on this operation, at the below link:
              >
              > http://www.beloitdailynews.com/497/peru23.htm
              >
              > Best,
              > Marius
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------

              Dear Norbert,

              Gorgoyle in his posting #28038 has already answered my question and
              friend of mine Javiar from Peru has confirmed it. Some hostage takers
              were executed, for sure that happened to those two teenaged girls.
              Their parents are have been trying to sue the government for that.
              The downfall of Fujimori and his government was actually sped up by
              actions of the spy chief of Peru, his right-hand man, presidential
              aide and attorney Vladimiro Montesinos. A videotape was broadcasted
              in which Montesinos was seen evidently bribing opposition politician.
              Montesinos fled his country and was arrested in Venezuela and charged
              with embezzelment of millions of dollars, tortury, leading a military
              death squad, bribery, arms trafficking, money laundering. After he
              fled more tapes have had surfaced illustrating a huge corruption of
              Fujimori's regime. Alberto Fujimori is in exile in Japan right now,
              Vladimiro (Putin's namesake) in jail in Lima, Peru.

              I guess, if I used more logic, I wouldn't have to question your
              statement. In any combat situation not all people who fight are
              killed, there's usually some wounded survivors, also Fujimori's and
              Montesino's type are not much different from their Russian equivalent.


              Best,

              Marius
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