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Re: Duma delegation to arrive in Grozny

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  • Mark!
    ... You paint with a very wide brush. If what you say is true, which I don t believe, the war must continue forever or end with the capitulation of the
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 2, 2001
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      goldfishbooks wrote:
      >

      > It seems, the majority of the Russian politicians are driven by
      > the basic,
      > primitive instincts; the concept of consciousness, shame,
      > remorse,
      > compassion do not enter their 'moral' code? See them enter:
      > straight from
      > the stone age, clean shaven (some), in their double breasted
      > suits; even the
      > 'corochki' as they call it - a diploma of higher education,
      > makes no
      > difference; Neanderthals, 'Sharikov's' from the Bulgakov's
      > 'Heart of a
      > Dog' - the ethics and morals of an average contemporary
      > European are way
      > above their level, centuries above. With the skins and sculls
      > so thick,
      > there is no way to establish any meaningful negotiations, no
      > way to reason.

      You paint with a very wide brush. If what you say is true, which
      I don't believe, the war must continue forever or end with the
      capitulation of the Chechens. I agree that at the moment, the
      hardliners, who believe a Chechen resolution can be reached only
      by force, are in charge of the store. But surely, among the
      thick skinned and thick skulled neanderthals (as you describe
      them) there will be some moderates whose views will eventually
      prevail. But, in my view, this depends upon public opinion in
      Russia. When the Russian public demand that Vladimir Putin end
      this war, he will.

      American involvement in Vietnam was not ended altruistically by
      Richard Nixon or by Henry Kissinger. It was ended by public
      opinion. In my opinion, those who desire an end to the Chechen
      and Russian bloodshed would be well advised to commence a public
      relations campaign aimed at altering public opinion in Russia.
      All I ever read from the Chechen side is daily bragging about how
      many Russian conscripts were blown up in the vehicle in which
      they were travelling and how many women and children were raped
      or killed by the Russians.

      Mark L.
    • goldfishbooks
      You might be right about the painting with a wide brush , I would not argue and I did not go into the particulars, I expressed my view on the mere appearance
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 2, 2001
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        You might be right about the 'painting with a wide brush', I would not argue
        and I did not go into the particulars, I expressed my view on the mere
        appearance of this individuals in Jokhar (aka Grozny). I firmly believe
        this to be unethical, immoral, crude, arrogant, vile, disgusting and so on.
        In my opinion they had to guarantee the immunity to Maskhadov and his
        cabinet and sit down at the negotiating table on the neutral territory be it
        in one of the ex-soviet states, not directly under the Kremlin influence
        i.e. Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia or in the Eastern, or Western Europe,
        anywhere else but in Chechnya and not on their own, as if they own it
        already.

        You say 'a public relations campaign aimed at altering public opinion in
        Russia', - a very interesting, fresh idea; could you, please, develop it a
        little bit, give us some more details as to where would you start and so on?

        Anya

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mark! <gta@...>
        To: chechnya-sl@yahoogroups.com <chechnya-sl@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: 02 July 2001 18:12
        Subject: Re: Duma delegation to arrive in Grozny

        In my opinion, those who desire an end to the Chechen
        and Russian bloodshed would be well advised to commence a public
        relations campaign aimed at altering public opinion in Russia.

        Mark L.
      • emmil kasaev
        ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 2, 2001
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          >In my opinion, those who desire an end to the Chechen
          >and Russian bloodshed would be well advised to commence a public
          >relations campaign aimed at altering public opinion in Russia.
          >
          >Mark L.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Since the start of the military campaign I stressed the fact that Russia
          >will stop genocidical war in Chechnya when it will get its 'mug' bruised up
          >by the Chechen fighters. The war in Chechnya will unequivocally end in our
          >victory. The Russian Public opinion has been dead in Russia for hundreds of
          >years. The only thing which will save and would have saved tens of
          >thousands of lives in Chechnya would be minimum military and financial
          >assistance to those Chechens who have been holding back the vampirical
          >Russian appetites in the Caucausus, Chechen fighters. Russia will speak
          >only when they will feel a good mighty punch is about to land in their
          >face. Only military victory in Chechnya , not through peace talks, can
          >guarantee us safety from Russian geographical and homicidal ambitions. We
          >have learned that in the first war.
          _________________________________________________________________________
          Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
        • Mark!
          To Anya and others: I have no expertise in public relations. Quite the opposite, in fact . However, I suspect that for a public relations campaign to have
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 4, 2001
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            To Anya and others:

            I have no expertise in public relations. Quite the opposite, in
            fact <g>. However, I suspect that for a public relations
            campaign to have a chance of serious success, an absolutely free
            and independent news media is essential. However, as noted in
            the quote below, maybe public opinion is already moving in the
            right direction under its own steam partly because the military
            can't conceal body bags forever. I sincerely hope that that this
            shift in public opinion gathers momentum.

            "There have been some recent indications that Russian public
            opinion is
            beginning to reevaluate that war. For the first time since its
            start,
            more Russians -- according to two recent polls -- favor its
            peaceful
            resolution than its endless pursuit." (An Opening on Chechnya
            By Zbigniew Brzezinski, Max Kampelman and Alexander M. Haig Jr.
            Washington Post, Wednesday, July 4, 2001)

            I encourage you not to allow your views of Putin and his
            government to engulf you in total hatred of all Russians. There
            are countless decent, caring and sensitive Russians just as there
            are in Western Europe, North America etc. I agree that Mr. Putin
            now has blood on his hands. He may be one day brought to
            justice. Who would have imagined three years ago that now
            pathetic Mr. Milosevich would be awaiting trial in the Hague.


            Mark Lewis

            goldfishbooks wrote:
            >
            > You might be right about the 'painting with a wide brush', I would not argue
            > and I did not go into the particulars, I expressed my view on the mere
            > appearance of this individuals in Jokhar (aka Grozny). I firmly believe
            > this to be unethical, immoral, crude, arrogant, vile, disgusting and so on.
            > In my opinion they had to guarantee the immunity to Maskhadov and his
            > cabinet and sit down at the negotiating table on the neutral territory be it
            > in one of the ex-soviet states, not directly under the Kremlin influence
            > i.e. Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia or in the Eastern, or Western Europe,
            > anywhere else but in Chechnya and not on their own, as if they own it
            > already.
            >
            > You say 'a public relations campaign aimed at altering public opinion in
            > Russia', - a very interesting, fresh idea; could you, please, develop it a
            > little bit, give us some more details as to where would you start and so on?
            >
            > Anya
            >
            >
          • goldfishbooks
            There was no mentioning of all Russians anywhere in my message, - their political leaders, yes, how dare they come to the place, what s left of it, against
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 4, 2001
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              There was no mentioning of 'all Russians ' anywhere in my message, - their
              political leaders, yes, how dare they come to the place, what's left of it,
              against the survivors wishes and attempt to decide their fate for them?!

              'All Russians' should do something to make sure, and fast, - this gangsters
              know where their real place is, they belong to prison, 99.9% of them do!

              Anya
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mark! <gta@...>
              To: chechnya-sl@yahoogroups.com <chechnya-sl@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: 04 July 2001 14:25
              Subject: Re: Duma delegation to arrive in Grozny


              >To Anya and others:

              >I encourage you not to allow your views of Putin and his
              >government to engulf you in total hatred of all Russians.
              >
              >Mark Lewis
              >
              >goldfishbooks wrote:
              >>
              >> You might be right about the 'painting with a wide brush', I would not
              argue
              >> and I did not go into the particulars, I expressed my view on the mere
              >> appearance of this individuals in Jokhar (aka Grozny). I firmly believe
              >> this to be unethical, immoral, crude, arrogant, vile, disgusting and so
              on.
              >> In my opinion they had to guarantee the immunity to Maskhadov and his
              >> cabinet and sit down at the negotiating table on the neutral territory be
              it
              >> in one of the ex-soviet states, not directly under the Kremlin influence
              >> i.e. Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia or in the Eastern, or Western Europe,
              >> anywhere else but in Chechnya and not on their own, as if they own it
              >> already.
              >>
              >> You say 'a public relations campaign aimed at altering public opinion in
              >> Russia', - a very interesting, fresh idea; could you, please, develop it
              a
              >> little bit, give us some more details as to where would you start and so
              on?
              >>
              >> Anya
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Mark!
              ... The brutal reality of war is that those in control, usually the winners of the war, are in a position to determine the fate of the survivors rightly or
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 4, 2001
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                goldfishbooks wrote:
                >
                > There was no mentioning of 'all Russians ' anywhere in my message, - their
                > political leaders, yes, how dare they come to the place, what's left of it,
                > against the survivors wishes and attempt to decide their fate for them?!
                >
                > 'All Russians' should do something to make sure, and fast, - this gangsters
                > know where their real place is, they belong to prison, 99.9% of them do!
                >

                The brutal reality of war is that those in control, usually the
                winners of the war, are in a position to determine the fate of
                the "survivors" rightly or wrongly. The allies decided the fate
                of the Germans and the Japanese. The Taliban decided the fate of
                Afghans. The list could go on. Unfortunately, that's why the
                Russian political leaders dare to come to the place.

                But maybe some good will come of it. Maybe some of the more
                moderate members of the Duma will agitate for an end to the
                bloodshed. Think positively.

                Mark L.
              • marius@sprint.ca
                ... You are a big optimist Mark. Sergei Kovalyov - the Duma member said probably many times that the bloodshed in Chechnya has to stop. But, those Duma members
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 4, 2001
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                  --- In chechnya-sl@y..., "Mark!" <gta@g...> wrote:
                  >
                  > -snip-
                  >
                  > But maybe some good will come of it. Maybe some of the more
                  > moderate members of the Duma will agitate for an end to the
                  > bloodshed. Think positively.
                  >
                  > Mark L.

                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  You are a big optimist Mark. Sergei Kovalyov - the Duma member said
                  probably many times that the bloodshed in Chechnya has to stop.
                  But, those Duma members somehow forgot about those 80,000 or more
                  military men staying in Chechnya and their daily mopping up, killing,
                  looting and pillaging.
                  And regarding their talk about restoring housing and amenities, it's
                  easier to say than actually can be done (assuming that they have
                  will, money and resources). They can't even rebuilt the completely
                  flooded city of Lensk in Siberia in spite of all Putin promises and
                  Minister of Emergencies - Shoigu, who's staying on the spot there.
                  The winter in Siberia begins in September (nothing has been done till
                  now) - it's impossible to survive if you live in a tent there.

                  Marius.



                  Duma commission studies situation in Chechnya
                  Legislators to interfere actively in peaceful revival of Chechnya
                  07.04.2001, 15:24 Russian Observer.ru
                  Full story: "Chechnya heading for peaceful life"

                  A group of State Duma deputies has arrived in Grozny July 2 with a
                  view to holding an away meeting of the lower-house commission on aid
                  to normalization and compliance with human rights in Chechnya.

                  The meeting will be attended by heads of the governmental commission
                  pursuing restoration of Chechnya's social sphere and economy, heads
                  of the Southern Federal District, representatives of the armed forces
                  and secret services, heads of Chechnya, and members of the Chechen
                  public, deputy commission chairman Ashot Yeghizaryan told RIA Novosti.

                  In his words, the meeting is to consider a broad range of issues
                  related to crisis settlement. It is aimed at outlining the State
                  Duma's approaches of principle to the tackling of the key
                  normalization problems.


                  In the first place, these are providing legality, law and order,
                  and public security, and restoring the economy and the social sphere
                  "with an emphasis on the restoration of housing and amenities, " - he
                  said.

                  Besides, the meeting is going to discuss the problem of displaced
                  people. In this connection, the commission members plan to discuss
                  the creation of the necessary conditions for their return to places
                  of permanent residence, he said.

                  To quote deputy chairman of the Duma Defense Committee, General
                  Nikolai Bezborodov , who repeatedly visited Chechnya during the last
                  two years, the present situation in the republic requires an active
                  interference of the federal center.

                  In his view, "The pause of transition from the end of the last
                  large-scale military operation to peaceful life has become
                  excessively protracted."

                  "Last time, I was in Chechnya six months ago, and it was clear already
                  then, that the focus in the settlement of the situation should be
                  shifted to the economy and the social sphere," he said.

                  Much has been done in this respect: local administrations have been
                  created and Chechnya is receiving money, he said. "But, as it seems
                  to me, Grozny has failed to draw up the overall plan for the
                  restoration of the Chechen Republic, and the federal center has a
                  duty to help in this sense," he stressed.

                  "I am not ruling out that the commission's conclusions will be
                  disconcerting, and the State Duma will have to actively interfere in
                  the process of restoration of peaceful life in Chechnya, including at
                  the legislative level," he said.

                  In his words, "In many respects, much time has been lost and the
                  separatists are skillfully exploiting the fact by keeping peaceful
                  civilians in a state of fear." The local authorities will experience
                  considerable difficulties as long as Chechnya's economy is
                  inoperative, he holds.
                • goldfishbooks
                  Mark, Their presence in Grozny is against the wishes of the majority of the surviving population. They have not won yet and are not winning in this war. The
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 5, 2001
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                    Mark,

                    Their presence in Grozny is against the wishes of the majority of the
                    surviving population.

                    They have not won yet and are not winning in this war.

                    The more moderate members of the Duma apparently have very little influence,
                    otherwise they would discuss the options somewhere else and with Mashkhadov
                    present, to demonstrate their 'moderate' approach.

                    Anya

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Mark! <gta@...>
                    To: chechnya-sl@yahoogroups.com <chechnya-sl@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: 05 July 2001 00:42
                    Subject: Re: Duma delegation to arrive in Grozny


                    Mark L. wrote

                    '...usually the winners of the war, are in a position to determine the fate
                    of
                    the "survivors" rightly or wrongly.
                    ...............
                    Maybe some of the more moderate members of the Duma will agitate for an end
                    to the
                    bloodshed.
                  • Mark!
                    ... In my line of work, when ever we embark on something, we have more than one exit plan in place. I am convinced that when Putin ordered troops back into
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 5, 2001
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                      marius@... wrote:
                      >
                      > You are a big optimist Mark. Sergei Kovalyov - the Duma member
                      > said
                      > probably many times that the bloodshed in Chechnya has to stop.
                      >

                      In my line of work, when ever we embark on something, we have
                      more than one exit plan in place. I am convinced that when Putin
                      ordered troops back into Chechnya in 1999, he had no exit plan.
                      A serious mistake made by a man who, to my knowledge had no
                      strategic military training, as such. I'm sure his burning
                      question now is how to withdraw 80,000 troops with honor and to
                      make it all seem to have been worthwhile. How to justify the
                      deaths of countless Chechen civilians, fighters and Russian
                      troops not to mention the destruction of Chechnya at a cost of
                      100's of millions of dollars. Explaining all this away has got
                      to be Putin's nightmare.

                      But Putin can't give up until he finds a way to ostensibly
                      withdraw with honor, to announce mission accomplished, Mashkadov
                      arrested, terrorists rooted out and neutralized, foreign
                      mercenaries eliminated, law and order restored, kidnappings and
                      oil theft stopped, etc., etc.

                      Someone has to find an exit plan for Putin.

                      Mark L.
                    • goldfishbooks
                      Mark L. wrote: Someone has to find an exit plan for Putin. ... There is no exit for Putin, he arrived at his place in history where he stays in the same
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 5, 2001
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                        Mark L. wrote:

                        ''Someone has to find an exit plan for Putin.''

                        --------------------------------------------------------------

                        There is no exit for Putin, he arrived at his place in history where he
                        stays in the same dark corner forever, next to Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini,
                        Yeltsin, Milosevich and other mass murderers as a 'Butcher of Chechnya'.

                        Anya
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