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Re: [cheap-shelters] Power from waste heat. (cross posted)

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  • Tom Adshead
    well, from 15kw (51,210,000btu s?) of heat the one they have there will capture 800 watts. That s 18.5%. Most wood stoves produce between 25,000 and 80,000
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 12, 2008
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      well, from 15kw (51,210,000btu's?) of heat the one they have there will capture 800 watts.
      That's 18.5%.

      Most wood stoves produce between 25,000 and 80,000 BTUs (thats according to http://www.galttech.com/research/household-DIY-tools/wood-burning-stove.php)

      so say 52,000 BTU's, which would give off about 0.81watts....

      I make no claims about the accuracy of any of those numbers or calculations... lol

      but if I did do it right, it would seem to indicate that you wouldn't even get your time investment back for setting it up, let alone harvesting it from a vehicle.

      just my thoughts... lol

      Tom



      --- On Tue, 8/12/08, Francis Robinson <robinson46176@...> wrote:










      http://dsc.discover y.com/news/ 2008/08/11/ car-exhaust- power.html





      Thoughts?

       


















      __________________________________________________________________
      Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
      http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • hillwizard2@aol.com
      Hi Farmer The thermocouple has been around for a long time, you had one it your Gas stove, and water heater. Remember when you lit it, before the pilot
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 12, 2008
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        Hi Farmer

        The thermocouple has been around for a long time, you had one it your Gas
        stove, and water heater. Remember when you lit it, before the pilot light
        would go on It had to get hot? you were heating the thermocouple, and it made
        the electricity that ran the gas valve

        I think there is a lot of hipp here to get research cash. There is a lot of
        heat in a big Diesel truck and not so much in my little Subaru. also adding
        a 30 pound unit to a truck don't make much difference But to a little car?

        On the other hand it should transfer to a wood stove easily, you have a lot
        of heat, and the weight make no difference

        Mike the Hillwizard

        vini, vidi, cenavi crustulum.
        [I came. I saw, I ate the doughnut]


        In a message dated 8/12/2008 3:17:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        robinson46176@... writes:

        _http://dsc.discoverhttp://dsc.http://dsc.http://dsc.dhttp://dsc_
        (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/08/11/car-exhaust-power.html)

        My first reaction when I read this was that this concept should work with a
        wood stove... Or many other heating systems for that matter. Anything that
        generates heat.






        **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
        Read reviews on AOL Autos.
        (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • hillwizard2@aol.com
        In a message dated 8/13/2008 5:49:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, chronictumbleweed@yahoo.com writes: well, from 15kw (51,210,000btu well, from 15kw
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 13, 2008
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          In a message dated 8/13/2008 5:49:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          chronictumbleweed@... writes:

          well, from 15kw (51,210,000btu'well, from 15kw (51,210,000btu'<WBR>s?) of
          heat the one they
          That's 18.5%.




          you got the numbers backwards, it is 800 over 15K {15000} X 100 = 5 1/3
          percent



          Mike the Hillwizard

          From the deck of Muddlin' Through

          Master in the service of Merchant Prince Nicholas van Rijn



          **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
          Read reviews on AOL Autos.
          (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tom
          Well, I guess it would be a good thing I said I wasnt sure if I had them right then isn t it? lol Although that just makes the argument more valid that it
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 14, 2008
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            Well, I guess it would be a good thing I said I wasnt sure if I had
            them right then isn't it? lol

            Although that just makes the argument more valid that it wouldn't be
            worth it.

            also points out that at some points I should be sleeping instead of
            typing... lol

            Tom


            >
            > you got the numbers backwards, it is 800 over 15K {15000} X 100 = 5
            1/3
            > percent
            >
            >
          • LarenCorie
            Posted by: Tom Adshead chronictumbleweed@yahoo.com ... Hi Tom; It is 51195BTUs ... 800Watts from 15kW is 5.333...% efficiency ...
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 14, 2008
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              Posted by: "Tom Adshead" chronictumbleweed@...

              > well, from 15kw (51,210,000btu's?)

              Hi Tom;

              It is 51195BTUs

              > of heat the one they have there will capture 800 watts.

              > That's 18.5%.

              800Watts from 15kW is 5.333...% efficiency

              > Most wood stoves produce between 25,000 and 80,000
              > BTUs (thats according to
              http://www.galttech.com/research/household-DIY-tools/wood-burning-stove.php)

              That is their maximum output from are surfaces.
              Since virtually all stoves (except perhaps a Sedore)
              are based on a radiating firebox, if you were to draw
              all of the heat from it, the fire would lose its efficiency.
              So any device using that heat, would need to draw it
              off after primary and secondary combustion, or only
              draw off a small percentage of the heat from the fire
              box.

              > so say 52,000 BTU's, which would give off about 0.81watts....

              If it were possible to maintain a healthy fire, while converting
              that much energy, then based on the numbers above, the
              output would be 2.73kWh/hr from a 15kW(51195BTU) fire.

              Francis Robinson <robinson46176@...> wrote:

              http://dsc.discover y.com/news/ 2008/08/11/ car-exhaust-
              power.html

              ECD (the people who invented the amophous Solar cell, and
              the first flexible Solar panels, and are also big in fuel cells (they
              are also UniSolar) developed such a system, way back in the
              1980s, for the auto industry. However, it was deemed to be
              non-viable, for production at that time, but its time may come.

              -Laren Corie-
              Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
              www.ThermalAttic.com

              Read my Solar house design articles in:
              -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
              www.rebelwolf.com

              Home base:
              LittleHouses YahooGroup
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/

              WoodGas - Power from wood
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas

              Solar Power Corps - Spreading the Word
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SolarPowerCorps

              RefrigeratorAlternatives
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
            • Francis Robinson
              ... are also UniSolar) developed such a system, way back in the 1980s, for the auto industry. However, it was deemed to be non-viable, for production at that
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 14, 2008
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                >ECD (the people who invented the amophous Solar cell, and
                >the first flexible Solar panels, and are also big in fuel cells (they

                are also UniSolar) developed such a system, way back in the

                1980s, for the auto industry. However, it was deemed to be

                non-viable, for production at that time, but its time may come.



                -Laren Corie-

                =========================

                I agree.
                I really believe that one of our largest stumbling blocks to changing directions on energy is the "instant gratification" factor. Americans want an easy instant free ride single solution to the problem. The answer actually comes in small bits and pieces of infinite variety. Many who poo poo solar want to look at solar as a total and simple solution and like to say that you can not cover the earth with solar cells and make enough power. Well, maybe not if you continue to waste power like a hog and plan to rely on yesterdays technology for the next 50 years. I have reached the point where I'm afraid I now have little patience with the whining nay sayers that seem to just live to whine and put down ideas because they will not work well with yesterdays technology. Solar is one good example of taking tiny bites out of the problem that can slowly make a difference. I am big on "point of use" solar power. Simple stuff like my pocket calculator or an electric
                fence charger and beyond as far as possible. I don't understand why so many feel that any solution MUST be something that is fed through some company's meter. Except for folks on lists like this one and similar we as a society are losing all sense of independent thinking and building. Let George do it...
                Things that impress me are guys like the one that has an old furnace blower serving as a water wheel in a mountain stream running an alternator charging a battery bank. It was and had been supplying all of his few simple power needs for sevaral years. When I posted that on another list one time some nay sayer popped up saying that it wouldn't work... What did he mean it wouldn't work? The guy had been using it several years and it worked... Sure it wouldn't run General Motors, but it served his needs and every guy like him is one less that need be provided for on the grid.
                Babies learn to walk with baby steps but almost all of them do learn to walk... We don't tell them that since they can't walk well at age one that they should give up trying... If they have a handicap we no longer (at least I hope so) tell them that they must live with it all of their lives. Thinking people know that for most such things there many solutions waiting just around the corner and just because we don't have a solution this week doesn't mean that there won't be one in 5 years or 10 years... It is still important to look at where you are at and to look in the rear view mirror but it is much more important to look ahead as far as you possibly can.
                Soap box now tossed on fire...   :-)


                --



                farmer



                I do not mind being absent minded so bad if forgetfulness

                could just be a little more selective. Just last week I

                was saying so to whats-her-name...



                Hay and Straw Exchange (Buy it, sell it and trade it.)

                http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/HayandStrawExchange



                Francis Robinson

                Central Indiana, USA

                robinson@...


                 




















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tom
                ... lol, I ll just take your word on it... I know when I did the math the other day it all made sense to me... but that means nothing... lol If your numbers
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 15, 2008
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                  --- the output would be 2.73kWh/hr from a 15kW(51195BTU) fire.


                  lol, I'll just take your word on it...

                  I know when I did the math the other day it all made sense to me...
                  but that means nothing... lol

                  If your numbers are correct, then it would be a useful thing to look
                  into. Even without keeping a fire at the much of an output.

                  Tom
                • Tom
                  Good rant... lol I think solar is a wonderful thing, if you are in an area where it is feasible. Unfortunately, the efficiency rates of the current pv panels,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 15, 2008
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                    Good rant... lol

                    I think solar is a wonderful thing, if you are in an area where it is
                    feasible. Unfortunately, the efficiency rates of the current pv
                    panels, is such that unless you live in a predominantly sunny location
                    that has little wind, your money is better spent on wind generators.

                    Specifically for us here, we have much more wind available then sun,
                    especially during the middle of winter.

                    Having said that, any of them will do the job, you just need to size
                    each system to it's application. For some thing in point of use, I
                    will agree with you, calculators, cell phone charges, battery keepers
                    (auto) and such.

                    I do however disagree with the electric fence part, unless its an
                    isolated fence from your main property. The biggest expense to any
                    off-grid (or reduced grid connection) system is the storage batteries.

                    I would rather see people combine their storage into one set-up rather
                    then separated for usage.

                    As I said that, it did occur to me that if you were setting up a
                    system for someone else, or just wanted to make it as fool proof as
                    possible. Having separate system may actually be better. It would mean
                    less worries about someone (for example) staying on the computer too
                    long and killing the battery bank and letting the animals out...

                    So, I will change that to... where intelligently feasible, I would
                    rather see people combine storage where they can.... lol

                    Tom



                    --- In cheap-shelters@yahoogroups.com, Francis Robinson
                    <robinson46176@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > I agree.
                    > I really believe that one of our largest stumbling blocks to
                    changing directions on energy is the "instant gratification" factor.
                    Americans want an easy instant free ride single solution to the
                    problem. The answer actually comes in small bits and pieces of
                    infinite variety. Many who poo poo solar want to look at solar as a
                    total and simple solution and like to say that you can not cover the
                    earth with solar cells and make enough power. Well, maybe not if you
                    continue to waste power like a hog and plan to rely on yesterdays
                    technology for the next 50 years. I have reached the point where I'm
                    afraid I now have little patience with the whining nay sayers that
                    seem to just live to whine and put down ideas because they will not
                    work well with yesterdays technology. Solar is one good example of
                    taking tiny bites out of the problem that can slowly make a
                    difference. I am big on "point of use" solar power. Simple stuff like
                    my pocket calculator or an electric
                    > fence charger and beyond as far as possible. I don't understand why
                    so many feel that any solution MUST be something that is fed through
                    some company's meter. Except for folks on lists like this one and
                    similar we as a society are losing all sense of independent thinking
                    and building. Let George do it...
                    > Things that impress me are guys like the one that has an old furnace
                    blower serving as a water wheel in a mountain stream running an
                    alternator charging a battery bank. It was and had been supplying all
                    of his few simple power needs for sevaral years. When I posted that on
                    another list one time some nay sayer popped up saying that it wouldn't
                    work... What did he mean it wouldn't work? The guy had been using it
                    several years and it worked... Sure it wouldn't run General Motors,
                    but it served his needs and every guy like him is one less that need
                    be provided for on the grid.
                    > Babies learn to walk with baby steps but almost all of them do learn
                    to walk... We don't tell them that since they can't walk well at age
                    one that they should give up trying... If they have a handicap we no
                    longer (at least I hope so) tell them that they must live with it all
                    of their lives. Thinking people know that for most such things there
                    many solutions waiting just around the corner and just because we
                    don't have a solution this week doesn't mean that there won't be one
                    in 5 years or 10 years... It is still important to look at where you
                    are at and to look in the rear view mirror but it is much more
                    important to look ahead as far as you possibly can.
                    > Soap box now tossed on fire...   :-)
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > farmer
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I do not mind being absent minded so bad if forgetfulness
                    >
                    > could just be a little more selective. Just last week I
                    >
                    > was saying so to whats-her-name...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hay and Straw Exchange (Buy it, sell it and trade it.)
                    >
                    > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/HayandStrawExchange
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Francis Robinson
                    >
                    > Central Indiana, USA
                    >
                    > robinson@...
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Doug Younker
                    From the article, I take it that they are using peltier devices, not thermocouples. A thermocouple will not transfer heat when an electrical current is
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 23, 2008
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                      From the article, I take it that they are using peltier devices, not
                      thermocouples. A thermocouple will not transfer heat when an electrical
                      current is applied. A thermocouple creates a current when heat is
                      applied to the junction of dissimilar metals. A peltier device has a
                      solid state junction, for it to create a current one side of the
                      junction has to be cooler or warmer than the other side of the junction.
                      From the product description, the stove fans clearly, are using
                      peltier devices. In the event these can be developed to the point that
                      they could replace a vehicle's alternator, at a comparable weight, that
                      would be huge step. Even reducing the total weight of equipment needed
                      to provide a vehicle's electrical needs would be a step forward as well.
                      Using these devices to rethink how to provide occupant comfort during
                      warm weather may even be a bigger step. Hype? Perhaps, but with 12
                      years and a half a million miles behind them, they may not need hype,
                      because they have data. Only time will tell...


                      Doug, N0LKK


                      hillwizard2@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Farmer
                      >
                      > The thermocouple has been around for a long time, you had one it your Gas
                      > stove, and water heater. Remember when you lit it, before the pilot light
                      > would go on It had to get hot? you were heating the thermocouple, and it made
                      > the electricity that ran the gas valve
                      >
                      > I think there is a lot of hipp here to get research cash. There is a lot of
                      > heat in a big Diesel truck and not so much in my little Subaru. also adding
                      > a 30 pound unit to a truck don't make much difference But to a little car?
                      >
                      > On the other hand it should transfer to a wood stove easily, you have a lot
                      > of heat, and the weight make no difference
                      >
                      > Mike the Hillwizard
                      >
                      > vini, vidi, cenavi crustulum.
                      > [I came. I saw, I ate the doughnut]
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 8/12/2008 3:17:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                      > robinson46176@... writes:
                      >
                      > _http://dsc.discoverhttp://dsc.http://dsc.http://dsc.dhttp://dsc_
                      > (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/08/11/car-exhaust-power.html)
                      >
                      > My first reaction when I read this was that this concept should work with a
                      > wood stove... Or many other heating systems for that matter. Anything that
                      > generates heat.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                      > Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                      > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Remember to keep it light and friendly. :-)Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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