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Boulez conducts Ives?

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  • Frank Camiola
    http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_9730.html?selecteddate=03102009 March 2009. This is a concert I will not miss (I live near NYC, so
    Message 1 of 7 , May 23, 2008
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      http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_9730.html?selecteddate=03102009

      March 2009. This is a concert I will not miss (I live near NYC, so it's feasible). Does this mean we will see a recording with Boulez/Ives? The old French guy seems to be changing his "tune" the older he gets. I am really interested to see what he will do with Ives. Thoughts?

      Frank
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      "Beauty in music is too often confused with something that lets the ear lie back in an easy chair."
      Charles Ives


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • anthony cole
      Umm...........not sure about changing his mind, he has always been ambivalent about Ives - conducting his works (esp. Robert Browning Overture 3 Places and
      Message 2 of 7 , May 23, 2008
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        Umm...........not sure about changing his mind, he has always been
        ambivalent about Ives - conducting his works (esp. Robert Browning Overture
        3 Places and 3rd & 4th symphonies), but he has gone on record as claiming
        Ives was just an amateur and a poor orchestrator..........Tony

        -------Original Message-------

        From: Frank Camiola
        Date: 23/05/2008 13:25:07
        To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [charlesives] Boulez conducts Ives?

        http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_9730
        html?selecteddate=03102009

        March 2009. This is a concert I will not miss (I live near NYC, so it's
        feasible). Does this mean we will see a recording with Boulez/Ives? The old
        French guy seems to be changing his "tune" the older he gets. I am really
        interested to see what he will do with Ives. Thoughts?

        Frank
        ----------------------------------------------------------
        "Beauty in music is too often confused with something that lets the ear lie
        back in an easy chair."
        Charles Ives

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Frank Camiola
        Subject: Re: [charlesives] Boulez conducts Ives? ... So he has conducted Ives before? I thought he dismissed him as you said and wouldn t touch those pieces
        Message 3 of 7 , May 24, 2008
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          Subject: Re: [charlesives] Boulez conducts Ives?


          > Umm...........not sure about changing his mind, he has always been
          > ambivalent about Ives - conducting his works (esp. Robert Browning
          > Overture
          > 3 Places and 3rd & 4th symphonies), but he has gone on record as claiming
          > Ives was just an amateur and a poor orchestrator..........Tony

          So he has conducted Ives before? I thought he dismissed him as you said and
          wouldn't touch those pieces with a 70-foot pole? When did he conduct Ives
          and with which orchestra? And if he is still ambivalent, why is he wasting
          his time now? Is it a contractual thing with the CSO?

          It is true he changed his tune in regards to Mahler, yes?

          Sorry - I just noticed I posted a bunch of questions.....;)

          Frank
        • anthony cole
          Frank: Pierre B conducted 4th Symphony with NYPO ( years ago when he was music director), also R.Browning Ov., 3rd Symph. - I also remember him doing some
          Message 4 of 7 , May 24, 2008
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            Frank: Pierre B conducted 4th Symphony with NYPO ( years ago when he was
            music director), also R.Browning Ov., 3rd Symph. - I also remember him doing
            some Ives when he was i/c BBCSO - Personally, although he can be scornful of
            Ives the orchestral composer, I feel he does understand the inherent
            grandeur and probably the importance also of the music - Perhaps Boulez'
            relationship with Charley is not unlike that of Elliott Carter - ? (what do
            others think?) Tony

            -------Original Message-------

            From: Frank Camiola
            Date: 05/24/08 13:18:05
            To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [charlesives] Boulez conducts Ives?

            Subject: Re: [charlesives] Boulez conducts Ives?

            > Umm...........not sure about changing his mind, he has always been
            > ambivalent about Ives - conducting his works (esp. Robert Browning
            > Overture
            > 3 Places and 3rd & 4th symphonies), but he has gone on record as claiming
            > Ives was just an amateur and a poor orchestrator..........Tony

            So he has conducted Ives before? I thought he dismissed him as you said and
            wouldn't touch those pieces with a 70-foot pole? When did he conduct Ives
            and with which orchestra? And if he is still ambivalent, why is he wasting
            his time now? Is it a contractual thing with the CSO?

            It is true he changed his tune in regards to Mahler, yes?

            Sorry - I just noticed I posted a bunch of questions.....;)

            Frank





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Anne Ozorio
            ... Questions are good ! They serve a purpose. Lots is written about Boulez that isn t accurate. The wiki entry, for example. But it gets repeated until
            Message 5 of 7 , May 24, 2008
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              On 24 May 2008 at 8:20, Frank Camiola wrote:
              > So he has conducted Ives before? I thought he dismissed him as you said and
              > wouldn't touch those pieces with a 70-foot pole? When did he conduct Ives
              > and with which orchestra? And if he is still ambivalent, why is he wasting
              > his time now? Is it a contractual thing with the CSO?> It is true he changed his tune in regards to Mahler, yes?
              >> Sorry - I just noticed I posted a bunch of questions.....;)

              Questions are good ! They serve a purpose. Lots is written about
              Boulez that isn't accurate. The wiki entry, for example. But it gets
              repeated until it's assumed to be "fact". Also, we're all conditioned
              to think in terms of recording, so if someone doesn't record
              something, it's assumed he doesn't perform it or know it. Mahler for
              example, he's been interested since the late 40's when few were
              aware. But another question. In Jameux there's a reference to a
              series he created in New York, called "Prospective Encounters", which
              ran monthly for several years in the Shakespeare Festival Complex.
              The first 12 featured only American composers. Then he also did,
              quoting Jameux, "a series of mini festivals like that devoted to
              Schubert and Ives in 1971-2 in which he included works unearthed in
              some music library or another" Schubert, huh ! But Boulez is
              extremely well informed about music history so it's not surprising he
              explores things even if he doesn't make a career of them.




              Anne
              anne.ozorio@...
            • Frank Camiola
              ... From: Anne Ozorio To: Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [charlesives] Boulez
              Message 6 of 7 , May 24, 2008
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Anne Ozorio" <anne.ozorio@...>
                To: <charlesives@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 9:16 AM
                Subject: Re: [charlesives] Boulez conducts Ives?


                > On 24 May 2008 at 8:20, Frank Camiola wrote:
                >> So he has conducted Ives before? I thought he dismissed him as you said
                >> and
                >> wouldn't touch those pieces with a 70-foot pole? When did he conduct Ives
                >> and with which orchestra? And if he is still ambivalent, why is he
                >> wasting
                >> his time now? Is it a contractual thing with the CSO?> It is true he
                >> changed his tune in regards to Mahler, yes?
                >>> Sorry - I just noticed I posted a bunch of questions.....;)
                >
                > Questions are good ! They serve a purpose. Lots is written about
                > Boulez that isn't accurate. The wiki entry, for example. But it gets
                > repeated until it's assumed to be "fact".

                Thanks Anne. I have sort of answered a lot of my questions upon finding this
                Boulez interview from August, 2000. I have a world of respect for the man,
                but I don't necessarily agree with the "amateur" comments. It's way too
                subjective, and nobody on this earth can make this claim - maybe with the
                exception of Sinclair who knows this music better than anybody. But I have
                no doubt that Ive's scores' were troublesome to conductors and performers
                alike, but would we have it any other way? ;)

                Here is the snippet on Ives:

                JD: I heard one of them on the same program where you did Carter's Double
                Concerto. That was the first [I'd heard of] either Babbitt or Carter's music
                in concert. And my first live Ives Fourth Symphony was your performance with
                the New York Philharmonic. You haven't gone back to Ives, though.
                PB: Not very much. If I did, I would have to rewrite the scores.

                JD: What was that like, preparing the Fourth, with all its textual problems?

                PB: That was a challenge. I've also played the Robert Browning Overture and
                the Three Places in New England. It's music written by an amateur. You would
                have to rewrite things because it's impossible to do justice to the ideas
                because they're poorly written. He stayed an amateur all his life and he
                wanted to stay this way. It was a choice for him.

                JD: Had Ives heard more of his orchestra music played, do you think he would
                have composed differently?

                PB: Yes, and he would have abandoned the insurance business! If you read his
                diaries, Ives cannot stand the professional milieu of his period at all.
                He's screaming all the time against them. He wants to be completely apart
                from that. In Ives' melodies for voice and piano, that's okay, or for small
                chamber pieces. But when he goes to another level, that's when the music
                fails.
              • Anne Ozorio
                On 24 May 2008 at 10:32, Frank Camiola wrote: I have sort of answered a lot of my questions upon finding this ... Thanks loads for this Frankie, it s great
                Message 7 of 7 , May 24, 2008
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                  On 24 May 2008 at 10:32, Frank Camiola wrote:

                  I have sort of answered a lot of my questions upon finding this
                  > Boulez interview from August, 2000.

                  Thanks loads for this Frankie, it's great stuff ! It shows the value
                  of asking questions ! Boulez talks in extremes, like a poet, so
                  whnat he says is supoosed to provoke. That's perhaps why he was
                  hated so passionately in his youth, exceept by people who really knew
                  him. And he responded by being even more polemical ! He was an
                  enfant terrible, the scourge of the establishment etc etc. Remember
                  how he was in trouble after 9;/11 when someone reported his comment
                  made years before about "burning down opera houses".?

                  Recently I've been thinking a lot about the music scene in 1940's and
                  50's Paris. Gosh it was insular ! Nadia Boulanger ruled with a fist
                  of iron veiled in old lady satin. She worshipped early Stravinsky and
                  her musical vision ended round 1930 (grin). What did she think, then
                  of the circle around Messiaen ? She dropped Yvonne Loriod as soon as
                  Loriod took up with Messiaen. The absence of any direct comment on
                  Messiaen speaks volumes, even though there is no way she would not
                  have known his music. And who was Messiaen's surrogate son ? Pierre
                  Boulez, who stood for everything Boulanger hated. Boulez used to go
                  round routinely knocking the establishment etc etc (even though he
                  worshipped Stravinsky). Horror of horrors, he was even rude to his
                  supporters ! He upset even the saintly Messiaen though they soon
                  made up. It seems a bit like oedipal complex in action when you rebel
                  to become yourself. But to a lot of people, being a rebel is like
                  being in league with the devil. It would have driven Boulanger nuts
                  since she believed in keeping up appearances, being nice to the rich,
                  knowing one's "place", obeying order. Boulez must have made her gag.
                  Since Boulanger was extraordinarily influential among English
                  speaking students, musicians and writers, her views would have had
                  enduring impact. So we get Bernstein, and others, hostile to
                  Messiaen, Boulez and what they stood for. So when Boulez comes to
                  the US with his radical views, there's a whole lot of folks pre
                  conditioned not to like him.




                  Anne
                  anne.ozorio@...
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