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Ives and Schoenberg

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  • Random Particle
    Hello, Something occured to me. Mahler may not have known about Ives. But what about Arnold Schoenberg? I remember a quote from Schoenberg about Ives on a
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 8, 2007
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      Hello,

      Something occured to me. Mahler may not have known about Ives. But what about Arnold Schoenberg?

      I remember a quote from Schoenberg about Ives on a record I used to listen to when I was in high school in the ´70s, Noel Lee´s wonderful performance of the 1st Piano Sonata, on the Nonesuch label. I don´t have the record any more. But the quote couldn´t have been bogus, could it? Does anybody know any more about what Schoenberg thought of Ives, how he found out about him etc.?


      a composer in Nicaragua


      ---------------------------------
      Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • dthurmai
      Hello (first time posting!), The quotation you re referring to from Schoenberg came from a page found by his wife after his death (which she sent to Ives).
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 9, 2007
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        Hello (first time posting!),

        The quotation you're referring to from Schoenberg came from a page found by his wife
        after his death (which she sent to Ives). Schoenberg wrote some nice words about Ives
        that sound remarkably similar to what he might have written about himself:

        There is a great Man living in this Country--a composer.
        He has solved the problem how to preserve one's self and to learn.
        He responds to negligence by contempt.
        He is not forced to accept praise or blame.
        His name is Ives.

        (see Cowell's bio, p. 114)

        Ives always claimed he "hadn't heard a note of Schoenberg's music," though Swafford
        points out (pp. 382-3) that "as an avid reader of the journals *Musical Quarterly* and
        *Modern Music* he had at least seen excerpts and read a good many analytical words on
        Schoenberg." It is probably true that Ives didn't know Schoenberg's music while writing
        most of his own music, but his later claims of ignorance were surely dubious.

        Best,

        David Thurmaier, Ph.D.
        Assistant Professor of Music Theory
        Florida Gulf Coast University


        --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, Random Particle <ranpar2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello,
        >
        > Something occured to me. Mahler may not have known about Ives. But what about
        Arnold Schoenberg?
        >
        > I remember a quote from Schoenberg about Ives on a record I used to listen to when I
        was in high school in the ´70s, Noel Lee´s wonderful performance of the 1st Piano Sonata,
        on the Nonesuch label. I don´t have the record any more. But the quote couldn´t have
        been bogus, could it? Does anybody know any more about what Schoenberg thought of
        Ives, how he found out about him etc.?
        >
        >
        > a composer in Nicaragua
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo!
        TV.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Random Particle
        Hello, (First of all, thank you Professor Thurmaier, for answer my Schoenberg-Ives question. And, although it hardly seems worth mentioning, for the record
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 10, 2007
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          Hello,

          (First of all, thank you Professor Thurmaier, for answer my Schoenberg-Ives question.
          And, although it hardly seems worth mentioning, for the record that was my second post, or maybe 3rd. My God, who cares? now i´m laughing at myself)

          OK, 2 little questions about Ive´s 3rd Symphony (which I love so much) that have been kind of digging at me. I have been studying the score, and listening to a recording of it. I will mention here (because it might be relevant) that it says ¨Copyright 1947 by Arrow Music Press, Inc.¨

          (1) (And this question may reveal that I haven´t studied too many orchestral scores.) The orchestration says ¨2 horns¨ (in F). That seems vague to me. (Perhaps I am not ¨in the know¨, never having played in or written for an orchestra. Does ¨horn¨ mean French horn?
          If my naivete can be pardoned, someone please enlighten.

          (2) The recording I have is by the Dallas Symphony Orchestra with Andew Litton conducting. At measures 30 and 31, I can distinctly hear an oboe in the background. But there is a rest in both measures for the oboe part. A melody for oboe begins in the score at measure 32, which of course I can hear on the recording as well. But, like I said, the score calls for silence at 30 and 31, but you hear it on the recording. (Excuse my redundancy.) By the way, I find what the oboe plays at 30 and 31 intriguing. It sounds like it is vaguely wandering about in the background not at all in the same key with what the strings are doing at that point. (Perhaps the Dallas Symphony Orchestra oboe player got either bored or inspired and added a little something?)

          thank you, David Parker

          dthurmai <cei1874@...> wrote:
          Hello (first time posting!),

          The quotation you're referring to from Schoenberg came from a page found by his wife
          after his death (which she sent to Ives). Schoenberg wrote some nice words about Ives
          that sound remarkably similar to what he might have written about himself:

          There is a great Man living in this Country--a composer.
          He has solved the problem how to preserve one's self and to learn.
          He responds to negligence by contempt.
          He is not forced to accept praise or blame.
          His name is Ives.

          (see Cowell's bio, p. 114)

          Ives always claimed he "hadn't heard a note of Schoenberg's music," though Swafford
          points out (pp. 382-3) that "as an avid reader of the journals *Musical Quarterly* and
          *Modern Music* he had at least seen excerpts and read a good many analytical words on
          Schoenberg." It is probably true that Ives didn't know Schoenberg's music while writing
          most of his own music, but his later claims of ignorance were surely dubious.

          Best,

          David Thurmaier, Ph.D.
          Assistant Professor of Music Theory
          Florida Gulf Coast University

          --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, Random Particle <ranpar2000@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello,
          >
          > Something occured to me. Mahler may not have known about Ives. But what about
          Arnold Schoenberg?
          >
          > I remember a quote from Schoenberg about Ives on a record I used to listen to when I
          was in high school in the ´70s, Noel Lee´s wonderful performance of the 1st Piano Sonata,
          on the Nonesuch label. I don´t have the record any more. But the quote couldn´t have
          been bogus, could it? Does anybody know any more about what Schoenberg thought of
          Ives, how he found out about him etc.?
          >
          >
          > a composer in Nicaragua
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo!
          TV.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >






          ---------------------------------
          Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • mira
          Hello, I have a somewhat similar question. Cowell states in the Bio, that Mrs. Ives confirmed to Kirkpatrick in 1968 that Ives had never met nor heard a note
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 28, 2007
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            Hello,
            I have a somewhat similar question. Cowell states in the Bio, that
            Mrs. Ives confirmed to Kirkpatrick in 1968 that Ives had never met nor
            heard a note from Bartók. Although Swafford leaves the quetion open,
            suggesting that it is possible that Ives heard Bartók and Szigeti
            playing in February 1928 in a Pro Musica Concert in New York, but I
            don't find a word on Bartók in the writings of Ives (I have only the
            Essays and the Memos, is there anything else?). Do you, Ives-experts
            and fans know anything about it?
            Thanks in advance,
            Mira
            an Ives-fan too, although a beginner in that :-)





            --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "dthurmai" <cei1874@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello (first time posting!),
            >
            > The quotation you're referring to from Schoenberg came from a page
            found by his wife
            > after his death (which she sent to Ives). Schoenberg wrote some
            nice words about Ives
            > that sound remarkably similar to what he might have written about
            himself:
            >
            > There is a great Man living in this Country--a composer.
            > He has solved the problem how to preserve one's self and to learn.
            > He responds to negligence by contempt.
            > He is not forced to accept praise or blame.
            > His name is Ives.
            >
            > (see Cowell's bio, p. 114)
            >
            > Ives always claimed he "hadn't heard a note of Schoenberg's music,"
            though Swafford
            > points out (pp. 382-3) that "as an avid reader of the journals
            *Musical Quarterly* and
            > *Modern Music* he had at least seen excerpts and read a good many
            analytical words on
            > Schoenberg." It is probably true that Ives didn't know Schoenberg's
            music while writing
            > most of his own music, but his later claims of ignorance were surely
            dubious.
            >
            > Best,
            >
            > David Thurmaier, Ph.D.
            > Assistant Professor of Music Theory
            > Florida Gulf Coast University
            >
            >
            > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, Random Particle <ranpar2000@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello,
            > >
            > > Something occured to me. Mahler may not have known about Ives.
            But what about
            > Arnold Schoenberg?
            > >
            > > I remember a quote from Schoenberg about Ives on a record I used
            to listen to when I
            > was in high school in the ´70s, Noel Lee´s wonderful performance of
            the 1st Piano Sonata,
            > on the Nonesuch label. I don´t have the record any more. But the
            quote couldn´t have
            > been bogus, could it? Does anybody know any more about what
            Schoenberg thought of
            > Ives, how he found out about him etc.?
            > >
            > >
            > > a composer in Nicaragua
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the
            hottest shows on Yahoo!
            > TV.
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • mira
            ....and do you know, Ives-experts, anything about my previous question?... nobody? :_(
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 11, 2007
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              ....and do you know, Ives-experts, anything about my previous
              question?... nobody? :_(







              --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mira" <zene_bona@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello,
              > I have a somewhat similar question. Cowell states in the Bio, that
              > Mrs. Ives confirmed to Kirkpatrick in 1968 that Ives had never met nor
              > heard a note from Bartók. Although Swafford leaves the quetion open,
              > suggesting that it is possible that Ives heard Bartók and Szigeti
              > playing in February 1928 in a Pro Musica Concert in New York, but I
              > don't find a word on Bartók in the writings of Ives (I have only the
              > Essays and the Memos, is there anything else?). Do you, Ives-experts
              > and fans know anything about it?
              > Thanks in advance,
              > Mira
              > an Ives-fan too, although a beginner in that :-)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "dthurmai" <cei1874@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello (first time posting!),
              > >
              > > The quotation you're referring to from Schoenberg came from a page
              > found by his wife
              > > after his death (which she sent to Ives). Schoenberg wrote some
              > nice words about Ives
              > > that sound remarkably similar to what he might have written about
              > himself:
              > >
              > > There is a great Man living in this Country--a composer.
              > > He has solved the problem how to preserve one's self and to learn.
              > > He responds to negligence by contempt.
              > > He is not forced to accept praise or blame.
              > > His name is Ives.
              > >
              > > (see Cowell's bio, p. 114)
              > >
              > > Ives always claimed he "hadn't heard a note of Schoenberg's music,"
              > though Swafford
              > > points out (pp. 382-3) that "as an avid reader of the journals
              > *Musical Quarterly* and
              > > *Modern Music* he had at least seen excerpts and read a good many
              > analytical words on
              > > Schoenberg." It is probably true that Ives didn't know Schoenberg's
              > music while writing
              > > most of his own music, but his later claims of ignorance were surely
              > dubious.
              > >
              > > Best,
              > >
              > > David Thurmaier, Ph.D.
              > > Assistant Professor of Music Theory
              > > Florida Gulf Coast University
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, Random Particle <ranpar2000@>
              wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello,
              > > >
              > > > Something occured to me. Mahler may not have known about Ives.
              > But what about
              > > Arnold Schoenberg?
              > > >
              > > > I remember a quote from Schoenberg about Ives on a record I used
              > to listen to when I
              > > was in high school in the ´70s, Noel Lee´s wonderful performance of
              > the 1st Piano Sonata,
              > > on the Nonesuch label. I don´t have the record any more. But the
              > quote couldn´t have
              > > been bogus, could it? Does anybody know any more about what
              > Schoenberg thought of
              > > Ives, how he found out about him etc.?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > a composer in Nicaragua
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the
              > hottest shows on Yahoo!
              > > TV.
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              >
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