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Re: [charlesives] Fourth Symphony by Martin Brabbins

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  • Michael Shaffer
    Patrick -- thank you for this -- never heard it so crisp -- especially the last movement is rilly coherent -- !! ms ... [Non-text portions of this message have
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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      Patrick -- thank you for this -- never heard it so crisp --
      especially the last movement is rilly coherent -- !!

      ms


      At 04:31 PM 3/31/06, you wrote:
      >Hello
      >
      >Here is the link to download a mp3 file that i have made ( 256kbps big
      >quality 56 mb ) of the live performance of Ives's Fourth symphony by
      >Martin Brabbins and Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra played the july
      >11 2003 at the Musica Viva festival.
      >I have recorded it from french broadcast and i think this a great
      >version of this work.
      >
      ><http://rapidshare.de/files/16897146/martin_brabbins.mp3.html>http://rapidshare.de/files/16897146/martin_brabbins.mp3.html
      >(click on free, wait 50 second then type the letters on case and click
      >on download, i find this practical system to share big file up to 100mb)
      >
      >If it works tell me your opinion of this performance.
      >
      >Patrick
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Douglas Jordon
      ... Excellent. Thank you. One very minor pet peeve: leave a few seconds of applause at the end.
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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        Patrick Petit wrote:

        >Hello
        >
        >Here is the link to download a mp3 file that i have made ( 256kbps big
        >quality 56 mb ) of the live performance of Ives's Fourth symphony by
        >Martin Brabbins and Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra played the july
        >11 2003 at the Musica Viva festival.
        >I have recorded it from french broadcast and i think this a great
        >version of this work.
        >
        >http://rapidshare.de/files/16897146/martin_brabbins.mp3.html
        >(click on free, wait 50 second then type the letters on case and click
        >on download, i find this practical system to share big file up to 100mb)
        >
        >If it works tell me your opinion of this performance.
        >

        Excellent. Thank you.

        One very minor pet peeve: leave a few seconds of applause at the end.
      • Christian Tucker
        ... quarter-tone ... Listened to MTT after the Brabbins. It s in the MTT, but not as clear or clean. Not Theremin, but very high and/or distant and/or muted
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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          > Am I crazy or am I
          > hearing the Theremin at the beginning of the Comedy during the
          quarter-tone
          > section?


          Listened to MTT after the Brabbins. It's in the MTT, but not as clear
          or clean. Not Theremin, but very high and/or distant and/or muted
          string.

          Heard lots of interesting moments. Not convinced by the Fugue - but I
          may be after a couple more listenings.


          Christian Tucker
          New York
        • Christian Tucker
          ... That hit the spot on a cold, gray afternoon. Very good off-the-air recording. Christian Tucker New York
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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            > I have recorded it from french broadcast and i think this a great
            > version of this work.


            That hit the spot on a cold, gray afternoon. Very good off-the-air
            recording.


            Christian Tucker
            New York
          • Frank Camiola
            ... Why do conductors feel the need to rush the ending of the fugue? In almost version I have ever heard (including two live performances), they rush through
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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              > Heard lots of interesting moments. Not convinced by the Fugue - but I
              > may be after a couple more listenings.
              >
              >
              > Christian Tucker
              > New York

              Why do conductors feel the need to rush the ending of the fugue? In almost
              version I have ever heard (including two live performances), they rush
              through the ending like they can't wait until the fourth movement. It's not
              a race. The exception being the MTT/Chicago disc - there is actually a
              ritard there and the drama it creates is huge to my ears. Is there actually
              a ritard written in the score?

              That being said, this version sounded very nice in spots, yet I need a few
              more closer listens.

              Frankie
            • mhberest
              I think the problem with the 3rd Movement is conductors don t understand why it s there. They take Ives s comments about reaction into formalism, or they
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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                I think the problem with the 3rd Movement is conductors don't
                understand why it's there. They take Ives's comments about "reaction
                into formalism," or they note it's just a reworking of the first
                movement of the first string quartet, and they say, "yeah, nice, let's
                get it over with so we can get to the more important stuff."

                No one bothers to think why is it really there?

                Ives, even more than Bartok, has no problem combining "irreconcilable"
                movements together in one piece. The reason why they're not really
                irreconcilable is what's underneath them--hymnody. Hymnody is
                definitely there in the Prelude. It's scrambled in the Comedy and the
                Finale, but it's still there, Beulah Land, Missionary Chant, Bethany
                and all.

                One problem I have with the finale with most conductors (and a little
                with Brabbins, although he gets it more than most) is that below all
                the layering of orchestral groups and polyrhythm, this is really a
                hymn. It's got ritards and a great big dominant 7th just before the
                coda. It needs to be played as if it were the 3rd movement, despite
                the fact to most people it bears absolutely no resemblance to the 3rd
                movement.

                I don't know if doing so contradicts tempo indications of Ives in the
                score or not, but I do know Debussy never followed his own tempo
                indications when performing his own music, and I really wonder if Ives
                would have liked more to hear the finale as I describe it, as a hymn,
                then as a jerking piece of modern music.

                The third movement belongs to the same world as the Fugue in Four Keys
                and the Second and Third Symphonies, gentle flowing hymn-like
                counterpoint, choral sound from an orchestra. Ives never abandoned
                this style. He didn't need to. He added colors to a coat of many
                colors, he never changed the coat itself.

                As I said, the 3rd and 4th movements have more in common than
                listeners (or most conductors) understand.

                What I like about this recording is that Brabbins really picks up on
                this in the "Watchman" Prelude. I've never heard this brief--but
                critical--movement done so correctly. Unlike other conductors,
                Brabbins brings out the human voices in the Prelude and Finale with
                incredible clarity which, since these are "hymns," is essential.

                In reference to the Second Movement--I have to quote something someone
                told me the other day in a quite different context. The Comedy is the
                ocean. It's just there. There's not a lot you can do with it except
                get it right. It's like a ride in a runaway truck. Hold on and pray.

                I remember the first time I heard it, on Serebrier's recording for the
                Ives Centennial, those fortissimos out of nowhere made me jump three
                feet in the air. That's what you have to capture here, the surprise,
                the way things don't change anywhere near a downbeat or even an upbeat.

                Lots of conductors have problems with this. Seiji Ozawa takes almost
                a stance of Stravinskian remove, too dispassionate, with this
                movement. One thing this is not is dispassionate music.

                Beyond "getting it right," I'm not sure there's a lot an interpreter
                can do with it. Unlike the other three movements, I think Ives set
                the Comedy up to come out very precisely. You don't need rubato in a
                Comedy. You need a pie in the face outta nowhere.

                There really isn't a helluva lot you can do with the "Fourth of July
                Riot" coda. It's a jumble like a skein of variegated yarn and that's
                how it's supposed to be. It always reminds me of walking along on the
                opening night of a county fair, the sounds of a dozen different rides,
                and events mixed with thousands of people talking at the same time.

                A conductor can wreck this by taking it too slowly. Stokowski did.
                Brabbins does not.

                One thing, though, about the Comedy, this is the first time listening
                to it I caught foreshadowings of the Finale's marching band in the
                percussion in the slow opening part of the movement.

                Thank you very much for the recording, Patrick.


                --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Camiola" <fcamiola@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Heard lots of interesting moments. Not convinced by the Fugue -
                but I
                > > may be after a couple more listenings.
                > >
                > >
                > > Christian Tucker
                > > New York
                >
                > Why do conductors feel the need to rush the ending of the fugue? In
                almost
                > version I have ever heard (including two live performances), they rush
                > through the ending like they can't wait until the fourth movement.
                It's not
                > a race. The exception being the MTT/Chicago disc - there is actually a
                > ritard there and the drama it creates is huge to my ears. Is there
                actually
                > a ritard written in the score?
                >
                > That being said, this version sounded very nice in spots, yet I need
                a few
                > more closer listens.
                >
                > Frankie
                >
              • Patrick Petit
                Hello Thanks Kirk, Michael, Douglas, Gene, Christian, Frank,and mhberest (and the others members which download the file) to appreciate this recording and to
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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                  Hello

                  Thanks Kirk, Michael, Douglas, Gene, Christian, Frank,and mhberest
                  (and the others members which download the file) to appreciate this
                  recording and to be interested by this performance.If you want i will
                  upload others performances, i think especially to a live performance
                  of the piano trio by the beaux Art Trio in 1977 and the second string
                  quartet by the Diotima Quartet.

                  Here is complete program of this concert

                  Freitag, 11. Juli 2003,
                  20 Uhr
                  Herkulessaal der Residenz
                  9. musica viva Veranstaltung
                  [Abonnement]

                  Howard Skempton:
                  Konzert für Drehleier,
                  Schlagzeug und Orchester [1994]
                  Deutsche Erstaufführung

                  Helmut Oehring:
                  "Das Blaumeer" [aus: "Einkehrtag"]
                  für Sopran [männlich], Solo E-Gitarre, Trompete und Orchester [2002/2003]
                  Kompositionsauftrag der musica viva
                  Uraufführung

                  Charles Ives:
                  Symphonie Nr. 4
                  für Chor, Klavier und Orchester [1910-1916]

                  Drehleier: Matthew Spring
                  Gitarre: Jörg Wilkendorff
                  Sopran: Arno Raunig
                  Trompete: Bill Forman
                  Klavier: Barton Weber
                  Surroundtechnik: Torsten Ottersberg
                  Kodirigent: N. N.

                  Chor und Symphonieorchester
                  des Bayerischen Rundfunks
                  Leitung: Martyn Brabbins
                  (no Theremin mentionned in the program)

                  My favorite movement is the finale and the beginning played by the
                  percussion reminds me the Universe symphony, i agree with Frank about
                  the fugue ,to me the quartet version is better played than the
                  orchestral performance.

                  Patrick
                • Frank Camiola
                  From: Patrick Petit ... (and the others members which download the file) to appreciate this recording and to be interested by this
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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                    From: "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@...>

                    >Thanks Kirk, Michael, Douglas, Gene, Christian, Frank,and mhberest
                    (and the others members which download the file) to appreciate this
                    recording and to be interested by this performance.If you want i will
                    upload others performances, i think especially to a live performance
                    of the piano trio by the beaux Art Trio in 1977 and the second string
                    quartet by the Diotima Quartet.

                    Thanks again Patrick. I for one would love to hear those other recordings of
                    the Trio and SQ#2, as I'm sure many others here would also.

                    For all of the "classical" composers that I listen to, I honestly don't
                    think that there is another composer whose compositions vary so greatly from
                    performance to performance. It's always great to hear different
                    interpretations of these amazing works.

                    Frank
                  • Frank Camiola
                    ... Nicely worded, Michael. I agree with everything you said there regarding the 4th, and you opened a few doors for me as well. Frankie
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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                      >From: "mhberest" <mberest@...>

                      Nicely worded, Michael. I agree with everything you said there regarding the
                      4th, and you opened a few doors for me as well.

                      Frankie
                    • tony cole
                      Let me add my thanks too, Patrick - have only just got round to downloading this (and burning CD so I can use my best equipment for sonic effect) - I agree
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 1, 2006
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                        Let me add my thanks too, Patrick - have only just got round to downloading this (and burning CD so I can use my best equipment for sonic effect) - I agree with what the others have said and found this very moving overall - was also struck by the detail revealed by the very open recording - well done!...........and thanks for these details of the whole concert (I've got no idea who Oehring is but know something of Skempton's music). Tony
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Patrick Petit
                        To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:06 AM
                        Subject: [charlesives] Re: Fourth Symphony by Martin Brabbins


                        Hello

                        Thanks Kirk, Michael, Douglas, Gene, Christian, Frank,and mhberest
                        (and the others members which download the file) to appreciate this
                        recording and to be interested by this performance.If you want i will
                        upload others performances, i think especially to a live performance
                        of the piano trio by the beaux Art Trio in 1977 and the second string
                        quartet by the Diotima Quartet.

                        Here is complete program of this concert

                        Freitag, 11. Juli 2003,
                        20 Uhr
                        Herkulessaal der Residenz
                        9. musica viva Veranstaltung
                        [Abonnement]

                        Howard Skempton:
                        Konzert für Drehleier,
                        Schlagzeug und Orchester [1994]
                        Deutsche Erstaufführung

                        Helmut Oehring:
                        "Das Blaumeer" [aus: "Einkehrtag"]
                        für Sopran [männlich], Solo E-Gitarre, Trompete und Orchester [2002/2003]
                        Kompositionsauftrag der musica viva
                        Uraufführung

                        Charles Ives:
                        Symphonie Nr. 4
                        für Chor, Klavier und Orchester [1910-1916]

                        Drehleier: Matthew Spring
                        Gitarre: Jörg Wilkendorff
                        Sopran: Arno Raunig
                        Trompete: Bill Forman
                        Klavier: Barton Weber
                        Surroundtechnik: Torsten Ottersberg
                        Kodirigent: N. N.

                        Chor und Symphonieorchester
                        des Bayerischen Rundfunks
                        Leitung: Martyn Brabbins
                        (no Theremin mentionned in the program)

                        My favorite movement is the finale and the beginning played by the
                        percussion reminds me the Universe symphony, i agree with Frank about
                        the fugue ,to me the quartet version is better played than the
                        orchestral performance.

                        Patrick








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                      • Kirk McElhearn
                        ... Yes, by all means! Do you record a lot of stuff from the radio? Kirk Author of: Take Control of Customizing Microsoft Office
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 2, 2006
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                          On Apr 2, 2006, at 2:06 AM, Patrick Petit wrote:

                          > If you want i will
                          > upload others performances, i think especially to a live performance
                          > of the piano trio by the beaux Art Trio in 1977 and the second string
                          > quartet by the Diotima Quartet.

                          Yes, by all means! Do you record a lot of stuff from the radio?


                          Kirk
                          Author of: Take Control of Customizing Microsoft Office
                          http://www.mcelhearn.com/tcoo.html
                          - - - - - -
                          Read my blog: Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
                          Musings, Opinion and Miscellanea, on Macs, iPods and more
                        • Patrick Petit
                          Yes Kirk, for example the Holidays by Lukas Foss (first european performance in the festival of Royan in 1975), some short works by Bruno Maderna, the Fourth
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 2, 2006
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                            Yes Kirk, for example the Holidays by Lukas Foss (first european
                            performance in the festival of Royan in 1975), some short works by
                            Bruno Maderna, the Fourth by Marek Janowski an explanation of the
                            Hawthorne movement by Pierre Laurent Aimard (in french) .

                            Patrick

                            >
                            > Yes, by all means! Do you record a lot of stuff from the radio?
                            >
                            >
                            > Kirk
                            > Author of: Take Control of Customizing Microsoft Office
                            > http://www.mcelhearn.com/tcoo.html
                            > - - - - - -
                            > Read my blog: Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
                            > Musings, Opinion and Miscellanea, on Macs, iPods and more
                            >
                          • Kirk McElhearn
                            ... Ooh, I d be interested in the Aimard! Kirk Author of: Take Control of Users & Accounts in Tiger http://www.mcelhearn.com/tco.html - - -
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 2, 2006
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                              On Apr 2, 2006, at 12:48 PM, Patrick Petit wrote:

                              > Yes Kirk, for example the Holidays by Lukas Foss (first european
                              > performance in the festival of Royan in 1975), some short works by
                              > Bruno Maderna, the Fourth by Marek Janowski an explanation of the
                              > Hawthorne movement by Pierre Laurent Aimard (in french) .


                              Ooh, I'd be interested in the Aimard!


                              Kirk
                              Author of: Take Control of Users & Accounts in Tiger
                              http://www.mcelhearn.com/tco.html
                              - - - - - -
                              Read my blog: Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
                              Musings, Opinion and Miscellanea, on Macs, iPods and more
                            • Christian Tucker
                              ... Let me soften my not. I still think it is off-stage strings at that point - but not so positive today. Christian Tucker New York
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 2, 2006
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                                > > hearing the Theremin at the beginning of the Comedy during the
                                > quarter-tone
                                > > section?
                                >
                                > Not Theremin, but very high and/or distant and/or muted
                                > string.


                                Let me soften my "not." I still think it is off-stage strings at that
                                point - but not so positive today.


                                Christian Tucker
                                New York
                              • Patrick Petit
                                Kirk i have remastered the Aimard in mp3 i will upload it and you will download it in my next post. Patrick
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 2, 2006
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                                  Kirk i have remastered the Aimard in mp3 i will upload it and you will
                                  download it in my next post.

                                  Patrick


                                  --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, Kirk McElhearn <kirklists@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Ooh, I'd be interested in the Aimard!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Kirk
                                  > Author of: Take Control of Users & Accounts in Tiger
                                  > http://www.mcelhearn.com/tco.html
                                  > - - - - - -
                                  > Read my blog: Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
                                  > Musings, Opinion and Miscellanea, on Macs, iPods and more
                                  >
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