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Re: The Best Orchestra

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  • Scott Mortensen
    ... Patrick, I would agree with Tony that the conductor plays a greater role than the orchestra--particularly when it comes to Ives music. Even so, I think
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 18, 2006
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      > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "tony cole" <tony@c...> wrote:
      > >
      > > depends on conductor surely..............Tony

      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Patrick Petit
      >
      > > I wonder, what is the best orchestra for play Ives ?
      > > The Boston S.O ? The Cleveland ? The San Francisco .....
      > > Or a non-american orchestra ?
      > >

      Patrick,

      I would agree with Tony that the conductor plays a greater role than
      the orchestra--particularly when it comes to Ives' music.

      Even so, I think you could make a good argument that the orchestra
      that has made the most successful RECORDINGS of Ives' music is the
      Chicago SO. I'm thinking of MTT's Fourth & Holidays Symphonies, and
      also of Morton Gould's First Symphony, Second Orchestral Set, and
      Browning Overture--all superb and all with the CSO.

      Despite my earlier assertion about the importance of the conductor, I
      do think that American orchestras have a bit easier time with Ives'
      music. Consider MTT's recordings of the Second & Third Symphonies
      with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. There's nothing wrong with them,
      but they just don't seem to catch fire--despite MTT and despite the
      incredible Concertgebouw orchestra.

      On the flip-side, I can also think of two ready exceptions
      that "disprove the rule": MTT's recording of the 2nd Orch Set with
      the Concertgebouw is fabulous, probably my favorite. And James
      Sinclair has done some superb recordings of Ives' music with UK and
      Irish orchestras.

      Tough to generalize about this sort of thing, I suppose.

      Do you tend to think that Russian music sounds "better" from Russian
      orchestras? Or English music from English orchestras? French music
      from French orchestras? I guess my answer would be: "Yes, OFTEN it
      does. But DEFINITELY not always."

      Interesting topic, I think.

      Scott
    • tony cole
      Yes, Patrick, I agree - also agree with Scott s later posting - and the Chicago SO has made some stunning recordings...but then what about: Baltimore/Zinman,
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 19, 2006
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        Yes, Patrick, I agree - also agree with Scott's later posting - and the Chicago SO has made some stunning recordings...but then what about: Baltimore/Zinman, Dallas/Litton, St Paul CO/Davies - as to non-American forces: LPO/Serebrier and even BBC SO/Oramo at last year's Proms, in addition to those mentioned by Scott. Personally, I don't think this is the sort of question that can be answered definitively.........what did Charley say: "Vagueness is at times the closest approach to perfect truth"...........Tony
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Patrick Petit
        To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:55 AM
        Subject: [charlesives] Re: The Best Orchestra



        Yes Tony, but also the sound and the acoustic of the orchestra.
        Patrick

        --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "tony cole" <tony@c...> wrote:
        >
        > depends on conductor surely..............Tony
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Patrick Petit
        > To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:35 AM
        > Subject: [charlesives] The Best Orchestra
        >
        >
        > Hello
        >
        > I wonder, what is the best orchestra for play Ives ?
        > The Boston S.O ? The Cleveland ? The San Francisco .....
        > Or a non-american orchestra ?
        >
        > Patrick
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Patrick Petit
        For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic work of CEI, which orchestra do you choose ? And are you impressed by a great live
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 19, 2006
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          For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic
          work of CEI, which orchestra do you choose ?
          And are you impressed by a great live performance because the sound of
          the orchestra ?

          Patrick

          --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "tony cole" <tony@c...> wrote:
          >
          > Yes, Patrick, I agree - also agree with Scott's later posting - and
          the Chicago SO has made some stunning recordings...but then what
          about: Baltimore/Zinman, Dallas/Litton, St Paul CO/Davies - as to
          non-American forces: LPO/Serebrier and even BBC SO/Oramo at last
          year's Proms, in addition to those mentioned by Scott. Personally, I
          don't think this is the sort of question that can be answered
          definitively.........what did Charley say: "Vagueness is at times the
          closest approach to perfect truth"...........Tony
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Patrick Petit
          > To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:55 AM
          > Subject: [charlesives] Re: The Best Orchestra
          >
          >
          >
          > Yes Tony, but also the sound and the acoustic of the orchestra.
          > Patrick
          >
          > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "tony cole" <tony@c...> wrote:
          > >
          > > depends on conductor surely..............Tony
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Patrick Petit
          > > To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:35 AM
          > > Subject: [charlesives] The Best Orchestra
          > >
          > >
          > > Hello
          > >
          > > I wonder, what is the best orchestra for play Ives ?
          > > The Boston S.O ? The Cleveland ? The San Francisco .....
          > > Or a non-american orchestra ?
          > >
          > > Patrick
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
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          > >
          > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > Service.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
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          > >
          > >
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          > >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Afmmjr@aol.com
          In a message dated 1/19/2006 5:27:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrpetit@yahoo.fr writes: For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 21, 2006
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            In a message dated 1/19/2006 5:27:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
            patrpetit@... writes:
            For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic
            work of CEI, which orchestra do you choose ?
            And are you impressed by a great live performance because the sound of
            the orchestra ?

            Patrick


            Hi All!,

            This is a hypothetical, of course, because conductors do not get the
            opportunity to choose an orchestra ordinarily.

            More to the point, does Ives require a familiarity with Jazz which can best
            be given by an American group, ordinarily. American musicians are more
            comfortable with Jazz, American folk and pop musics which regularly dart throughout
            Ives's music, generally.

            In contradistinction, it's interesting that Pablo Casals once spoke of
            liberating Bach from the Germans, specifically referring to his playing of the solo
            Cello Suites. In some ways, the Russians picked up on the importance of
            Charles Ives early on thanks to Leonard Bernstein, while rarely performing Ives's
            msuic. Maybe, Russians assume that Americans would be good exponents of such a
            fundamentally American composer, and rightly so.

            As the world Ives tradition spreads, there will be less and less of a
            difference in his performances in the macro sense. Of course, tuning it all together
            is still another matter (parameter). :)

            best, Johnny Reinhard


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mhberest
            Obviously, with time, other orchestras will feel more comfortable with Ives and the Casals/Bach anecdote is apt. There are lots of little local things in
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 21, 2006
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              Obviously, with time, other orchestras will feel more comfortable with
              Ives and the Casals/Bach anecdote is apt. There are lots of little
              local things in European composers' music which you could claim
              require an orchestra to be masters of "X."

              I think the thing with Ives is his music differs so totally from
              European music, they're daunted by it. The music of Spain (or of the
              romance countries) is not as far removed from Bach as the music of
              Europe in general is from Ives.

              OT, has your festival ever performed Aaron Copland's "Vitebsk"? I am
              beginning to think Ives played a larger role in the development of
              Copland as a composer than I thought. BTW, did you know Copland was
              the pianist at one of the first performances of the Coplandesque
              "Charlie Rutlage"? A coincidence. I think not.

              --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
              >
              > In a message dated 1/19/2006 5:27:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              > patrpetit@y... writes:
              > For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic
              > work of CEI, which orchestra do you choose ?
              > And are you impressed by a great live performance because the sound of
              > the orchestra ?
              >
              > Patrick
              >
              >
              > Hi All!,
              >
              > This is a hypothetical, of course, because conductors do not get the
              > opportunity to choose an orchestra ordinarily.
              >
              > More to the point, does Ives require a familiarity with Jazz which
              can best
              > be given by an American group, ordinarily. American musicians are more
              > comfortable with Jazz, American folk and pop musics which regularly
              dart throughout
              > Ives's music, generally.
              >
              > In contradistinction, it's interesting that Pablo Casals once spoke of
              > liberating Bach from the Germans, specifically referring to his
              playing of the solo
              > Cello Suites. In some ways, the Russians picked up on the
              importance of
              > Charles Ives early on thanks to Leonard Bernstein, while rarely
              performing Ives's
              > msuic. Maybe, Russians assume that Americans would be good
              exponents of such a
              > fundamentally American composer, and rightly so.
              >
              > As the world Ives tradition spreads, there will be less and less of a
              > difference in his performances in the macro sense. Of course,
              tuning it all together
              > is still another matter (parameter). :)
              >
              > best, Johnny Reinhard
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Afmmjr@aol.com
              In a message dated 1/21/2006 1:46:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, mberest@c500.com writes: OT, has your festival ever performed Aaron Copland s Vitebsk ? We have
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 22, 2006
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                In a message dated 1/21/2006 1:46:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                mberest@... writes:
                OT, has your festival ever performed Aaron Copland's "Vitebsk"?


                We have not.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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