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Re: The Best Orchestra

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  • Patrick Petit
    Yes Tony, but also the sound and the acoustic of the orchestra. Patrick ... Service.
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 18, 2006
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      Yes Tony, but also the sound and the acoustic of the orchestra.
      Patrick

      --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "tony cole" <tony@c...> wrote:
      >
      > depends on conductor surely..............Tony
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Patrick Petit
      > To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:35 AM
      > Subject: [charlesives] The Best Orchestra
      >
      >
      > Hello
      >
      > I wonder, what is the best orchestra for play Ives ?
      > The Boston S.O ? The Cleveland ? The San Francisco .....
      > Or a non-american orchestra ?
      >
      > Patrick
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Scott Mortensen
      ... Patrick, I would agree with Tony that the conductor plays a greater role than the orchestra--particularly when it comes to Ives music. Even so, I think
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 18, 2006
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        > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "tony cole" <tony@c...> wrote:
        > >
        > > depends on conductor surely..............Tony

        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Patrick Petit
        >
        > > I wonder, what is the best orchestra for play Ives ?
        > > The Boston S.O ? The Cleveland ? The San Francisco .....
        > > Or a non-american orchestra ?
        > >

        Patrick,

        I would agree with Tony that the conductor plays a greater role than
        the orchestra--particularly when it comes to Ives' music.

        Even so, I think you could make a good argument that the orchestra
        that has made the most successful RECORDINGS of Ives' music is the
        Chicago SO. I'm thinking of MTT's Fourth & Holidays Symphonies, and
        also of Morton Gould's First Symphony, Second Orchestral Set, and
        Browning Overture--all superb and all with the CSO.

        Despite my earlier assertion about the importance of the conductor, I
        do think that American orchestras have a bit easier time with Ives'
        music. Consider MTT's recordings of the Second & Third Symphonies
        with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. There's nothing wrong with them,
        but they just don't seem to catch fire--despite MTT and despite the
        incredible Concertgebouw orchestra.

        On the flip-side, I can also think of two ready exceptions
        that "disprove the rule": MTT's recording of the 2nd Orch Set with
        the Concertgebouw is fabulous, probably my favorite. And James
        Sinclair has done some superb recordings of Ives' music with UK and
        Irish orchestras.

        Tough to generalize about this sort of thing, I suppose.

        Do you tend to think that Russian music sounds "better" from Russian
        orchestras? Or English music from English orchestras? French music
        from French orchestras? I guess my answer would be: "Yes, OFTEN it
        does. But DEFINITELY not always."

        Interesting topic, I think.

        Scott
      • tony cole
        Yes, Patrick, I agree - also agree with Scott s later posting - and the Chicago SO has made some stunning recordings...but then what about: Baltimore/Zinman,
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 19, 2006
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          Yes, Patrick, I agree - also agree with Scott's later posting - and the Chicago SO has made some stunning recordings...but then what about: Baltimore/Zinman, Dallas/Litton, St Paul CO/Davies - as to non-American forces: LPO/Serebrier and even BBC SO/Oramo at last year's Proms, in addition to those mentioned by Scott. Personally, I don't think this is the sort of question that can be answered definitively.........what did Charley say: "Vagueness is at times the closest approach to perfect truth"...........Tony
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Patrick Petit
          To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:55 AM
          Subject: [charlesives] Re: The Best Orchestra



          Yes Tony, but also the sound and the acoustic of the orchestra.
          Patrick

          --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "tony cole" <tony@c...> wrote:
          >
          > depends on conductor surely..............Tony
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Patrick Petit
          > To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:35 AM
          > Subject: [charlesives] The Best Orchestra
          >
          >
          > Hello
          >
          > I wonder, what is the best orchestra for play Ives ?
          > The Boston S.O ? The Cleveland ? The San Francisco .....
          > Or a non-american orchestra ?
          >
          > Patrick
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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        • Patrick Petit
          For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic work of CEI, which orchestra do you choose ? And are you impressed by a great live
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 19, 2006
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            For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic
            work of CEI, which orchestra do you choose ?
            And are you impressed by a great live performance because the sound of
            the orchestra ?

            Patrick

            --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "tony cole" <tony@c...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes, Patrick, I agree - also agree with Scott's later posting - and
            the Chicago SO has made some stunning recordings...but then what
            about: Baltimore/Zinman, Dallas/Litton, St Paul CO/Davies - as to
            non-American forces: LPO/Serebrier and even BBC SO/Oramo at last
            year's Proms, in addition to those mentioned by Scott. Personally, I
            don't think this is the sort of question that can be answered
            definitively.........what did Charley say: "Vagueness is at times the
            closest approach to perfect truth"...........Tony
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Patrick Petit
            > To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:55 AM
            > Subject: [charlesives] Re: The Best Orchestra
            >
            >
            >
            > Yes Tony, but also the sound and the acoustic of the orchestra.
            > Patrick
            >
            > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "tony cole" <tony@c...> wrote:
            > >
            > > depends on conductor surely..............Tony
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Patrick Petit
            > > To: charlesives@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:35 AM
            > > Subject: [charlesives] The Best Orchestra
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello
            > >
            > > I wonder, what is the best orchestra for play Ives ?
            > > The Boston S.O ? The Cleveland ? The San Francisco .....
            > > Or a non-american orchestra ?
            > >
            > > Patrick
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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            > > a.. Visit your group "charlesives" on the web.
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            > > charlesives-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
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            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Afmmjr@aol.com
            In a message dated 1/19/2006 5:27:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrpetit@yahoo.fr writes: For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 21, 2006
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              In a message dated 1/19/2006 5:27:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              patrpetit@... writes:
              For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic
              work of CEI, which orchestra do you choose ?
              And are you impressed by a great live performance because the sound of
              the orchestra ?

              Patrick


              Hi All!,

              This is a hypothetical, of course, because conductors do not get the
              opportunity to choose an orchestra ordinarily.

              More to the point, does Ives require a familiarity with Jazz which can best
              be given by an American group, ordinarily. American musicians are more
              comfortable with Jazz, American folk and pop musics which regularly dart throughout
              Ives's music, generally.

              In contradistinction, it's interesting that Pablo Casals once spoke of
              liberating Bach from the Germans, specifically referring to his playing of the solo
              Cello Suites. In some ways, the Russians picked up on the importance of
              Charles Ives early on thanks to Leonard Bernstein, while rarely performing Ives's
              msuic. Maybe, Russians assume that Americans would be good exponents of such a
              fundamentally American composer, and rightly so.

              As the world Ives tradition spreads, there will be less and less of a
              difference in his performances in the macro sense. Of course, tuning it all together
              is still another matter (parameter). :)

              best, Johnny Reinhard


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • mhberest
              Obviously, with time, other orchestras will feel more comfortable with Ives and the Casals/Bach anecdote is apt. There are lots of little local things in
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 21, 2006
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                Obviously, with time, other orchestras will feel more comfortable with
                Ives and the Casals/Bach anecdote is apt. There are lots of little
                local things in European composers' music which you could claim
                require an orchestra to be masters of "X."

                I think the thing with Ives is his music differs so totally from
                European music, they're daunted by it. The music of Spain (or of the
                romance countries) is not as far removed from Bach as the music of
                Europe in general is from Ives.

                OT, has your festival ever performed Aaron Copland's "Vitebsk"? I am
                beginning to think Ives played a larger role in the development of
                Copland as a composer than I thought. BTW, did you know Copland was
                the pianist at one of the first performances of the Coplandesque
                "Charlie Rutlage"? A coincidence. I think not.

                --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
                >
                > In a message dated 1/19/2006 5:27:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                > patrpetit@y... writes:
                > For example,if you are a conductor and you want perform a symphonic
                > work of CEI, which orchestra do you choose ?
                > And are you impressed by a great live performance because the sound of
                > the orchestra ?
                >
                > Patrick
                >
                >
                > Hi All!,
                >
                > This is a hypothetical, of course, because conductors do not get the
                > opportunity to choose an orchestra ordinarily.
                >
                > More to the point, does Ives require a familiarity with Jazz which
                can best
                > be given by an American group, ordinarily. American musicians are more
                > comfortable with Jazz, American folk and pop musics which regularly
                dart throughout
                > Ives's music, generally.
                >
                > In contradistinction, it's interesting that Pablo Casals once spoke of
                > liberating Bach from the Germans, specifically referring to his
                playing of the solo
                > Cello Suites. In some ways, the Russians picked up on the
                importance of
                > Charles Ives early on thanks to Leonard Bernstein, while rarely
                performing Ives's
                > msuic. Maybe, Russians assume that Americans would be good
                exponents of such a
                > fundamentally American composer, and rightly so.
                >
                > As the world Ives tradition spreads, there will be less and less of a
                > difference in his performances in the macro sense. Of course,
                tuning it all together
                > is still another matter (parameter). :)
                >
                > best, Johnny Reinhard
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Afmmjr@aol.com
                In a message dated 1/21/2006 1:46:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, mberest@c500.com writes: OT, has your festival ever performed Aaron Copland s Vitebsk ? We have
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 22, 2006
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                  In a message dated 1/21/2006 1:46:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  mberest@... writes:
                  OT, has your festival ever performed Aaron Copland's "Vitebsk"?


                  We have not.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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