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Third Symphony

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  • mhberest
    Of Ives s symphonies, the third is one I ve never quite cozied up to. It s nice, but it s never really felt the thing that makes his other works, even early
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 30, 2005
      Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite cozied up to.
      It's nice, but it's never really felt the thing that makes his other
      works, even early ones like the 2nd Symphony stand out for me.

      Do you have similar feelings? If not, tell me what it is you like
      about the Third.
    • Christian Tucker
      ... That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don t want to think. To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music. I m too lazy this morning
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
        > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite cozied up to.
        > It's nice,

        That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't want to think.
        To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music.

        I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was being composed at
        the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d was a break from
        serious work.


        Christian Tucker
        New York
      • mhberest
        ... I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was composed around 1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward from the Third and anticipates
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
          --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Tucker" <ctucker1@r...>
          wrote:
          > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite cozied up to.
          > > It's nice,
          >
          > That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't want to think.
          > To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music.
          >
          > I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was being composed at
          > the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d was a break from
          > serious work.

          I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was composed around
          1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward from the Third
          and anticipates Ives's masterpieces after 1909.

          But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the Pulitzer
          than the Third. I've always felt that award was a consolation prize
          for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's why Ives
          wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a feeling the success of
          Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the high point of
          Ives's life.
        • Patrick Petit
          Have you noticed in this symphony,and in many three-movements Works(Third symphony,First and Second Orchestral Set,Piano Trio,Set for Theater,Three Quarter
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
            Have you noticed in this symphony,and in many three-movements
            Works(Third symphony,First and Second Orchestral Set,Piano Trio,Set
            for Theater,Three Quarter Tone Pieces) .Ives use the same structural
            scheme, the first slow movement is a meditative elegy,the second mvt
            is a scherzo full of quotations and the last mvt is a great Chorale
            inspired by a Hymn.

            Patrick

            --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
            > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Tucker" <ctucker1@r...>
            > wrote:
            > > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite cozied
            up to.
            > > > It's nice,
            > >
            > > That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't want to
            think.
            > > To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music.
            > >
            > > I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was being
            composed at
            > > the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d was a break
            from
            > > serious work.
            >
            > I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was composed around
            > 1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward from the Third
            > and anticipates Ives's masterpieces after 1909.
            >
            > But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the Pulitzer
            > than the Third. I've always felt that award was a consolation prize
            > for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's why Ives
            > wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a feeling the success of
            > Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the high point of
            > Ives's life.
          • Michael Shaffer
            ... It has a great maturity to it - a soundscape from the 1870 s seen thru his eyes of the next generation -- very authentic -- ... it s hard to think of the
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
              >
              > > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite cozied up to.
              > > > It's nice,
              > >

              It has a great maturity to it - a soundscape from the 1870's seen thru his
              eyes of the next generation -- very authentic --


              >But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the Pulitzer
              >than the Third. I've always felt that award was a consolation prize
              >for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's why Ives
              >wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a feeling the success of
              >Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the high point of
              >Ives's life.

              it's hard to think of the Pulitzer as a consolation prize -- it's a prize
              for establishing the "commercial" acceptance of an artists work -- when I
              was a playwright in NYC you couldn't get a Ford, Guggenheim, NEA or
              Rockefeller fellowship grant until you had achieved some commercial success
              -- it was almost a joke that if you could keep a play running off-Broadway
              for six weeks, you would get all four grants the next year and you could
              live without working for another 3 --




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            • mhberest
              You left out the Second String Quartet. It also has that exact same structure, down to the quotations in the middle movement.
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                You left out the Second String Quartet. It also has that exact same
                structure, down to the quotations in the middle movement.

                --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@y...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Have you noticed in this symphony,and in many three-movements
                > Works(Third symphony,First and Second Orchestral Set,Piano Trio,Set
                > for Theater,Three Quarter Tone Pieces) .Ives use the same structural
                > scheme, the first slow movement is a meditative elegy,the second mvt
                > is a scherzo full of quotations and the last mvt is a great Chorale
                > inspired by a Hymn.
                >
                > Patrick
                >
                > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Tucker" <ctucker1@r...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite cozied
                > up to.
                > > > > It's nice,
                > > >
                > > > That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't want to
                > think.
                > > > To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music.
                > > >
                > > > I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was being
                > composed at
                > > > the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d was a break
                > from
                > > > serious work.
                > >
                > > I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was composed around
                > > 1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward from the Third
                > > and anticipates Ives's masterpieces after 1909.
                > >
                > > But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the Pulitzer
                > > than the Third. I've always felt that award was a consolation prize
                > > for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's why Ives
                > > wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a feeling the success of
                > > Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the high point of
                > > Ives's life.
              • mhberest
                ... And yet, ironically, it is not a work of Ives s maturity, but of his middle period. ... prize ... Then maybe I felt it more of a guilt prize, like when
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                  > It has a great maturity to it

                  And yet, ironically, it is not a work of Ives's maturity, but of his
                  middle period.

                  > it's hard to think of the Pulitzer as a consolation prize -- it's a
                  prize
                  > for establishing the "commercial" acceptance of an artists work --

                  Then maybe I felt it more of a "guilt" prize, like when they gave the
                  Oscar to Jimmy Stewart for The Philadelphia Story because they hadn't
                  given it to him for Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. Of course, that cut
                  out Henry Fonda for what was arguably his greatest performance, in the
                  "Grapes of Wrath," but then when they realized he was dying 37 years
                  later, gave him one for "On Golden Pond."

                  A friend of mine used to sarcastically refer to it as the "Imminent
                  Death Award."
                • Patrick Petit
                  I have forgotten the Second String Quartet of course, and also the Second and Third Violin Sonatas. On the other hand, somes others three-movements works are
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                    I have forgotten the Second String Quartet of course, and also the
                    Second and Third Violin Sonatas.
                    On the other hand, somes others three-movements works are not
                    conceveid with this structure :the First and Fourth Violin Sonatas,
                    Three Harvest Home chorales,Three Pages Sonata.

                    Patrick

                    --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                    > You left out the Second String Quartet. It also has that exact same
                    > structure, down to the quotations in the middle movement.
                    >
                    > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Have you noticed in this symphony,and in many three-movements
                    > > Works(Third symphony,First and Second Orchestral Set,Piano Trio,Set
                    > > for Theater,Three Quarter Tone Pieces) .Ives use the same structural
                    > > scheme, the first slow movement is a meditative elegy,the second mvt
                    > > is a scherzo full of quotations and the last mvt is a great Chorale
                    > > inspired by a Hymn.
                    > >
                    > > Patrick
                    > >
                    > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                    > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Tucker"
                    <ctucker1@r...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite cozied
                    > > up to.
                    > > > > > It's nice,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't want to
                    > > think.
                    > > > > To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was being
                    > > composed at
                    > > > > the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d was a break
                    > > from
                    > > > > serious work.
                    > > >
                    > > > I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was composed around
                    > > > 1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward from the Third
                    > > > and anticipates Ives's masterpieces after 1909.
                    > > >
                    > > > But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the Pulitzer
                    > > > than the Third. I've always felt that award was a consolation prize
                    > > > for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's why Ives
                    > > > wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a feeling the
                    success of
                    > > > Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the high point of
                    > > > Ives's life.
                  • mhberest
                    ... In those where it does apply, I think Ives was reacting against the classic chamber piece sequence of movements--fast-slow-fast. He did the opposite.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                      --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I have forgotten the Second String Quartet of course, and also the
                      > Second and Third Violin Sonatas.
                      > On the other hand, somes others three-movements works are not
                      > conceveid with this structure :the First and Fourth Violin Sonatas,
                      > Three Harvest Home chorales,Three Pages Sonata.
                      >
                      > Patrick

                      In those where it does apply, I think Ives was reacting against the
                      classic chamber piece sequence of movements--fast-slow-fast. He did
                      the opposite. It's actually a pattern quite common in later American
                      music, particularly in the work of Aaron Copland.

                      >
                      > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                      > > You left out the Second String Quartet. It also has that exact same
                      > > structure, down to the quotations in the middle movement.
                      > >
                      > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@y...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Have you noticed in this symphony,and in many three-movements
                      > > > Works(Third symphony,First and Second Orchestral Set,Piano Trio,Set
                      > > > for Theater,Three Quarter Tone Pieces) .Ives use the same structural
                      > > > scheme, the first slow movement is a meditative elegy,the second mvt
                      > > > is a scherzo full of quotations and the last mvt is a great Chorale
                      > > > inspired by a Hymn.
                      > > >
                      > > > Patrick
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...>
                      wrote:
                      > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Tucker"
                      > <ctucker1@r...>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite cozied
                      > > > up to.
                      > > > > > > It's nice,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't want to
                      > > > think.
                      > > > > > To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was being
                      > > > composed at
                      > > > > > the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d was a
                      break
                      > > > from
                      > > > > > serious work.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was composed around
                      > > > > 1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward from the
                      Third
                      > > > > and anticipates Ives's masterpieces after 1909.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the
                      Pulitzer
                      > > > > than the Third. I've always felt that award was a consolation
                      prize
                      > > > > for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's why Ives
                      > > > > wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a feeling the
                      > success of
                      > > > > Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the high
                      point of
                      > > > > Ives's life.
                    • David See
                      ... I happen to love the Third. Besides being just a lovely piece, and well-wrought, there is also a lot of humor in the treatment of the tunes in the 1st and
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                        --- mhberest <mhberest@...> wrote:

                        > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never
                        > quite cozied up to.
                        > It's nice, but it's never really felt the thing
                        > that makes his other
                        > works, even early ones like the 2nd Symphony stand
                        > out for me.
                        >
                        > Do you have similar feelings? If not, tell me what
                        > it is you like
                        > about the Third.
                        >
                        I happen to love the Third. Besides being just a
                        lovely piece, and well-wrought, there is also a lot of
                        humor in the treatment of the tunes in the 1st and 2nd
                        movements. It also doesn't depend on the stereotypical
                        Ives orchestral climax which I've kind of gotten tired
                        of in my middle age. (Instead there is a funny
                        <I>anti-</I>climax in the 2nd movement -- a crescendo
                        to a big sustained F7 chord followed by a chorus of
                        "There Is a Happy Land" in the winds)

                        It's not Ives' most advanced piece, but it stands up
                        well to the rest of his work, I think. Too bad there
                        isn't a piano piece that is sort of like it.

                        -D






                        __________________________________
                        Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                        http://mail.yahoo.com
                      • Patrick Petit
                        Yes ,but both slow movements are not composed in the same spirit, often the first is an elegy inspired by the things his father loved (like in the song) or the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                          Yes ,but both slow movements are not composed in the same spirit,
                          often the first is an elegy inspired by the things his father loved
                          (like in the song) or the things his father lived (for example the
                          Civil War in "The St Gaudens in Boston Common"),the other is more
                          religious and less personal,inspired by the communion spirit like in
                          the third Symphony and in the last movement of Second String Quartet.
                          In the middle the fast movement is the most experimental,also the most
                          personal, Ives express himself about his impressions (Putnam's Camp).
                          1- is The Father 2-is The Son 3-is The Holy Spirit.
                          In this case MTT are right, Ives is a religious composer.

                          Patrick

                          --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                          > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I have forgotten the Second String Quartet of course, and also the
                          > > Second and Third Violin Sonatas.
                          > > On the other hand, somes others three-movements works are not
                          > > conceveid with this structure :the First and Fourth Violin Sonatas,
                          > > Three Harvest Home chorales,Three Pages Sonata.
                          > >
                          > > Patrick
                          >
                          > In those where it does apply, I think Ives was reacting against the
                          > classic chamber piece sequence of movements--fast-slow-fast. He did
                          > the opposite. It's actually a pattern quite common in later American
                          > music, particularly in the work of Aaron Copland.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                          > > > You left out the Second String Quartet. It also has that exact same
                          > > > structure, down to the quotations in the middle movement.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@y...>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Have you noticed in this symphony,and in many three-movements
                          > > > > Works(Third symphony,First and Second Orchestral Set,Piano
                          Trio,Set
                          > > > > for Theater,Three Quarter Tone Pieces) .Ives use the same
                          structural
                          > > > > scheme, the first slow movement is a meditative elegy,the
                          second mvt
                          > > > > is a scherzo full of quotations and the last mvt is a great
                          Chorale
                          > > > > inspired by a Hymn.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Patrick
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Tucker"
                          > > <ctucker1@r...>
                          > > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite
                          cozied
                          > > > > up to.
                          > > > > > > > It's nice,
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't want to
                          > > > > think.
                          > > > > > > To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was being
                          > > > > composed at
                          > > > > > > the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d was a
                          > break
                          > > > > from
                          > > > > > > serious work.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was composed
                          around
                          > > > > > 1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward from the
                          > Third
                          > > > > > and anticipates Ives's masterpieces after 1909.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the
                          > Pulitzer
                          > > > > > than the Third. I've always felt that award was a consolation
                          > prize
                          > > > > > for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's why Ives
                          > > > > > wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a feeling the
                          > > success of
                          > > > > > Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the high
                          > point of
                          > > > > > Ives's life.
                        • Michael Shaffer
                          Spiritual composer -- he liked transcendence and New England is a place that has that -- that s why Emerson -- nobody knows why -- he was beyond trinities --
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                            Spiritual composer -- he liked transcendence and New England is a place
                            that has that -- that's why Emerson -- nobody knows why -- he was beyond
                            trinities -- despite what happened in the future, the 3rd was a place of
                            confidence he had gotten to and as far as musical craftsmanship is
                            concerned, it's as good as symphony that was composed in that time and
                            place as you could name --


                            At 07:22 PM 10/1/05, you wrote:


                            >Yes ,but both slow movements are not composed in the same spirit,
                            >often the first is an elegy inspired by the things his father loved
                            >(like in the song) or the things his father lived (for example the
                            >Civil War in "The St Gaudens in Boston Common"),the other is more
                            >religious and less personal,inspired by the communion spirit like in
                            >the third Symphony and in the last movement of Second String Quartet.
                            >In the middle the fast movement is the most experimental,also the most
                            >personal, Ives express himself about his impressions (Putnam's Camp).
                            >1- is The Father 2-is The Son 3-is The Holy Spirit.
                            >In this case MTT are right, Ives is a religious composer.
                            >
                            >Patrick
                            >
                            >--- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                            > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@y...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I have forgotten the Second String Quartet of course, and also the
                            > > > Second and Third Violin Sonatas.
                            > > > On the other hand, somes others three-movements works are not
                            > > > conceveid with this structure :the First and Fourth Violin Sonatas,
                            > > > Three Harvest Home chorales,Three Pages Sonata.
                            > > >
                            > > > Patrick
                            > >
                            > > In those where it does apply, I think Ives was reacting against the
                            > > classic chamber piece sequence of movements--fast-slow-fast. He did
                            > > the opposite. It's actually a pattern quite common in later American
                            > > music, particularly in the work of Aaron Copland.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                            > > > > You left out the Second String Quartet. It also has that exact same
                            > > > > structure, down to the quotations in the middle movement.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@y...>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Have you noticed in this symphony,and in many three-movements
                            > > > > > Works(Third symphony,First and Second Orchestral Set,Piano
                            >Trio,Set
                            > > > > > for Theater,Three Quarter Tone Pieces) .Ives use the same
                            >structural
                            > > > > > scheme, the first slow movement is a meditative elegy,the
                            >second mvt
                            > > > > > is a scherzo full of quotations and the last mvt is a great
                            >Chorale
                            > > > > > inspired by a Hymn.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Patrick
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Tucker"
                            > > > <ctucker1@r...>
                            > > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite
                            >cozied
                            > > > > > up to.
                            > > > > > > > > It's nice,
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't want to
                            > > > > > think.
                            > > > > > > > To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was being
                            > > > > > composed at
                            > > > > > > > the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d was a
                            > > break
                            > > > > > from
                            > > > > > > > serious work.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was composed
                            >around
                            > > > > > > 1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward from the
                            > > Third
                            > > > > > > and anticipates Ives's masterpieces after 1909.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the
                            > > Pulitzer
                            > > > > > > than the Third. I've always felt that award was a consolation
                            > > prize
                            > > > > > > for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's why Ives
                            > > > > > > wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a feeling the
                            > > > success of
                            > > > > > > Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the high
                            > > point of
                            > > > > > > Ives's life.
                            >
                            >
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                          • mhberest
                            ... beyond ... place of ... The trinity idea, however, could have been used to symbolize the non-Emersonian religious thought of the common New Englanders Ives
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                              --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, Michael Shaffer <music@c...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Spiritual composer -- he liked transcendence and New England is a place
                              > that has that -- that's why Emerson -- nobody knows why -- he was
                              beyond
                              > trinities -- despite what happened in the future, the 3rd was a
                              place of
                              > confidence he had gotten to and as far as musical craftsmanship is
                              > concerned, it's as good as symphony that was composed in that time and
                              > place as you could name --

                              The trinity idea, however, could have been used to symbolize the
                              non-Emersonian religious thought of the common New Englanders Ives
                              grew up with.

                              I think the Third could be argued to exemplify this. Isn't movement I
                              called "Old Folks Gathering"? I don't remember the title of the
                              second movement, but I know it has to do with children's games at the
                              camp meeting. And the third is Communion. That again expresses
                              father-son-holy spirit. But this piece is about a camp meeting. It
                              is not ncessarily about Ives's own beliefs.

                              Four movement works, although less common in Ives's canon, break the
                              trinity idea, and connect more to transcendental experience, i.e.,
                              spirituality without religiosity: the Fourth Symphony, Concord Sonata,
                              Emerson "Concerto" and Holidays Symphony.


                              >
                              >
                              > At 07:22 PM 10/1/05, you wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > >Yes ,but both slow movements are not composed in the same spirit,
                              > >often the first is an elegy inspired by the things his father loved
                              > >(like in the song) or the things his father lived (for example the
                              > >Civil War in "The St Gaudens in Boston Common"),the other is more
                              > >religious and less personal,inspired by the communion spirit like in
                              > >the third Symphony and in the last movement of Second String Quartet.
                              > >In the middle the fast movement is the most experimental,also the most
                              > >personal, Ives express himself about his impressions (Putnam's Camp).
                              > >1- is The Father 2-is The Son 3-is The Holy Spirit.
                              > >In this case MTT are right, Ives is a religious composer.
                              > >
                              > >Patrick
                              > >
                              > >--- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                              > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit" <patrpetit@y...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I have forgotten the Second String Quartet of course, and also the
                              > > > > Second and Third Violin Sonatas.
                              > > > > On the other hand, somes others three-movements works are not
                              > > > > conceveid with this structure :the First and Fourth Violin
                              Sonatas,
                              > > > > Three Harvest Home chorales,Three Pages Sonata.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Patrick
                              > > >
                              > > > In those where it does apply, I think Ives was reacting against the
                              > > > classic chamber piece sequence of movements--fast-slow-fast. He did
                              > > > the opposite. It's actually a pattern quite common in later
                              American
                              > > > music, particularly in the work of Aaron Copland.
                              > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...>
                              wrote:
                              > > > > > You left out the Second String Quartet. It also has that
                              exact same
                              > > > > > structure, down to the quotations in the middle movement.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit"
                              <patrpetit@y...>
                              > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Have you noticed in this symphony,and in many three-movements
                              > > > > > > Works(Third symphony,First and Second Orchestral Set,Piano
                              > >Trio,Set
                              > > > > > > for Theater,Three Quarter Tone Pieces) .Ives use the same
                              > >structural
                              > > > > > > scheme, the first slow movement is a meditative elegy,the
                              > >second mvt
                              > > > > > > is a scherzo full of quotations and the last mvt is a great
                              > >Chorale
                              > > > > > > inspired by a Hymn.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Patrick
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Tucker"
                              > > > > <ctucker1@r...>
                              > > > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > > > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite
                              > >cozied
                              > > > > > > up to.
                              > > > > > > > > > It's nice,
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't
                              want to
                              > > > > > > think.
                              > > > > > > > > To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator music.
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was
                              being
                              > > > > > > composed at
                              > > > > > > > > the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d
                              was a
                              > > > break
                              > > > > > > from
                              > > > > > > > > serious work.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was composed
                              > >around
                              > > > > > > > 1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward
                              from the
                              > > > Third
                              > > > > > > > and anticipates Ives's masterpieces after 1909.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the
                              > > > Pulitzer
                              > > > > > > > than the Third. I've always felt that award was a
                              consolation
                              > > > prize
                              > > > > > > > for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's
                              why Ives
                              > > > > > > > wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a feeling the
                              > > > > success of
                              > > > > > > > Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the high
                              > > > point of
                              > > > > > > > Ives's life.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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                            • Michael Shaffer
                              Unless it s The Alcotts from the Concord -- ... No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database:
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                                Unless it's "The Alcotts" from the Concord --

                                >It's not Ives' most advanced piece, but it stands up
                                >well to the rest of his work, I think. Too bad there
                                >isn't a piano piece that is sort of like it.
                                >
                                >-D
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                              • Patrick Petit
                                At the beginning of his carrer Ives was more religious than transcendentalist,when he had composed the Nine Psalms, and he was Organist at the Central
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                                  At the beginning of his carrer Ives was more religious than
                                  transcendentalist,when he had composed the Nine Psalms, and he was
                                  Organist at the Central Presbyterian Church.
                                  Ives composed many religious works,and one of his last songs "In The
                                  Morning" is an harmonized gospel .I think Ives didn't really
                                  abandonned completely his religious thoughts.
                                  He didn't forget the religious origin of Transcendentalism.I think his
                                  spiritual conversion is not a rejection of his religious belief.

                                  Patrick

                                  --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                                  > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, Michael Shaffer <music@c...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Spiritual composer -- he liked transcendence and New England is a
                                  place
                                  > > that has that -- that's why Emerson -- nobody knows why -- he was
                                  > beyond
                                  > > trinities -- despite what happened in the future, the 3rd was a
                                  > place of
                                  > > confidence he had gotten to and as far as musical craftsmanship is
                                  > > concerned, it's as good as symphony that was composed in that time
                                  and
                                  > > place as you could name --
                                  >
                                  > The trinity idea, however, could have been used to symbolize the
                                  > non-Emersonian religious thought of the common New Englanders Ives
                                  > grew up with.
                                  >
                                  > I think the Third could be argued to exemplify this. Isn't movement I
                                  > called "Old Folks Gathering"? I don't remember the title of the
                                  > second movement, but I know it has to do with children's games at the
                                  > camp meeting. And the third is Communion. That again expresses
                                  > father-son-holy spirit. But this piece is about a camp meeting. It
                                  > is not ncessarily about Ives's own beliefs.
                                  >
                                  > Four movement works, although less common in Ives's canon, break the
                                  > trinity idea, and connect more to transcendental experience, i.e.,
                                  > spirituality without religiosity: the Fourth Symphony, Concord Sonata,
                                  > Emerson "Concerto" and Holidays Symphony.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > At 07:22 PM 10/1/05, you wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >Yes ,but both slow movements are not composed in the same spirit,
                                  > > >often the first is an elegy inspired by the things his father loved
                                  > > >(like in the song) or the things his father lived (for example the
                                  > > >Civil War in "The St Gaudens in Boston Common"),the other is more
                                  > > >religious and less personal,inspired by the communion spirit like in
                                  > > >the third Symphony and in the last movement of Second String Quartet.
                                  > > >In the middle the fast movement is the most experimental,also the
                                  most
                                  > > >personal, Ives express himself about his impressions (Putnam's Camp).
                                  > > >1- is The Father 2-is The Son 3-is The Holy Spirit.
                                  > > >In this case MTT are right, Ives is a religious composer.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >Patrick
                                  > > >
                                  > > >--- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...> wrote:
                                  > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit"
                                  <patrpetit@y...>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I have forgotten the Second String Quartet of course, and
                                  also the
                                  > > > > > Second and Third Violin Sonatas.
                                  > > > > > On the other hand, somes others three-movements works are not
                                  > > > > > conceveid with this structure :the First and Fourth Violin
                                  > Sonatas,
                                  > > > > > Three Harvest Home chorales,Three Pages Sonata.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Patrick
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > In those where it does apply, I think Ives was reacting
                                  against the
                                  > > > > classic chamber piece sequence of movements--fast-slow-fast.
                                  He did
                                  > > > > the opposite. It's actually a pattern quite common in later
                                  > American
                                  > > > > music, particularly in the work of Aaron Copland.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest" <mhberest@m...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > You left out the Second String Quartet. It also has that
                                  > exact same
                                  > > > > > > structure, down to the quotations in the middle movement.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Petit"
                                  > <patrpetit@y...>
                                  > > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Have you noticed in this symphony,and in many
                                  three-movements
                                  > > > > > > > Works(Third symphony,First and Second Orchestral Set,Piano
                                  > > >Trio,Set
                                  > > > > > > > for Theater,Three Quarter Tone Pieces) .Ives use the same
                                  > > >structural
                                  > > > > > > > scheme, the first slow movement is a meditative elegy,the
                                  > > >second mvt
                                  > > > > > > > is a scherzo full of quotations and the last mvt is a great
                                  > > >Chorale
                                  > > > > > > > inspired by a Hymn.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Patrick
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "mhberest"
                                  <mhberest@m...>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > --- In charlesives@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Tucker"
                                  > > > > > <ctucker1@r...>
                                  > > > > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > > > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never
                                  quite
                                  > > >cozied
                                  > > > > > > > up to.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > It's nice,
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > That kinda sums it up. I play it a lot - when I don't
                                  > want to
                                  > > > > > > > think.
                                  > > > > > > > > > To me it sounds like Copland movie music. Elevator
                                  music.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > I'm too lazy this morning to go look up what else was
                                  > being
                                  > > > > > > > composed at
                                  > > > > > > > > > the same time. I've always had a feeling that the 3d
                                  > was a
                                  > > > > break
                                  > > > > > > > from
                                  > > > > > > > > > serious work.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > I think Thanksgiving (that was 1904, the third was
                                  composed
                                  > > >around
                                  > > > > > > > > 1903, I think). Thanksgiving is a great leap forward
                                  > from the
                                  > > > > Third
                                  > > > > > > > > and anticipates Ives's masterpieces after 1909.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > But I've always felt there are works more deserving of the
                                  > > > > Pulitzer
                                  > > > > > > > > than the Third. I've always felt that award was a
                                  > consolation
                                  > > > > prize
                                  > > > > > > > > for Ives having been ignored for decades. Maybe that's
                                  > why Ives
                                  > > > > > > > > wasn't particularly thrilled with it. I have a
                                  feeling the
                                  > > > > > success of
                                  > > > > > > > > Kirkpatrick's first performance of the Concord was the
                                  high
                                  > > > > point of
                                  > > > > > > > > Ives's life.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >----------
                                  > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > > >
                                  > > > * Visit your group
                                  > > > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/charlesives>charlesives" on the web.
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                                  > > > *
                                  > > >
                                  >
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                                  > > >
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                                  > > >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/114 - Release Date:
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                                • jonleidecker99
                                  I came to the Third after already having fanatically memorized the Fourth, the Holidays, the Concord... I don t know what it was about it but I loved it
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 1, 2005
                                    I came to the Third after already having fanatically memorized the
                                    Fourth, the Holidays, the Concord... I don't know what it was
                                    about it but I loved it instantly. Those melodies really hit me
                                    deeply. And there are substantially weird, subtle details in there
                                    that absolutely distinguish it from the work of anyone else I can
                                    think of, every once in a while there's just one extra ringing note...
                                    Part of it is simply because I was approaching it in context with
                                    the later, extreme works, but the way the final movement seems
                                    to build and _out of nowhere_ deflates and quietly trails into the
                                    low bells, that is an amazing Ives moment.

                                    I really love the piece.

                                    It's the Second that loses me, actually... a lot of straightforward
                                    bombast. Total fun, but the Third resonates, it's a little more than
                                    just beautiful.

                                    The performance of the Third at Juilliard in January '04 was
                                    noted on this list, but worth mentioning again: a lovely
                                    performance arrived perfectly at the end with quietly intoned
                                    off-stage bells... silence hung in the air for three seconds...
                                    which weird trailed into a strange jangle of chimes and then an
                                    incredibly loud off-stage impact as the entire set of bells fell over
                                    and hit the ground, followed by the sound of the entire set of
                                    bells, metal frame and all, slowly & loudly cascaded down what
                                    sounded like a flight of stairs for about twenty seconds while the
                                    capacity room listened in shock. A long pause, and then riotous,
                                    heartfelt, prolonged applause. No one would have been happier
                                    than Charlie, it was perfect.

                                    -jl
                                  • Frank Camiola
                                    ... In short... The Third is THE WORK that allowed me to access Ives musical universe and ultimately fall in love with his music. It is a wonderfully intimate
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Oct 4, 2005
                                      > Of Ives's symphonies, the third is one I've never quite cozied up to.
                                      > It's nice, but it's never really felt the thing that makes his other
                                      > works, even early ones like the 2nd Symphony stand out for me.
                                      >
                                      > Do you have similar feelings? If not, tell me what it is you like
                                      > about the Third.

                                      In short...

                                      The Third is THE WORK that allowed me to access Ives' musical universe and
                                      ultimately fall in love with his music. It is a wonderfully intimate
                                      portrait of quaint village life in New England - Ives style. The third
                                      movement "Communion" is not only still one of my favorite Ives movements,
                                      but one of my favorite pieces of music EVER. The ending church bells has
                                      brought me to tears on many occasions. Heartfelt music doesn't get much
                                      deeper than that. The harmonic structure of Communion is facsinating, to say
                                      the least.

                                      So, at least you know how I feel : )

                                      Frankie
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