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Re: [CG] bicycles in drive-thrus

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  • Michael Graff
    Even then, it s not about the drive through per se, it s about serving customers no matter how they arrived. (Drivers of large vehicles like RVs and
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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      Even then, it's not about the drive through per se, it's about serving
      customers no matter how they arrived.

      (Drivers of large vehicles like RVs and semi-trucks, which can't fit
      in the drive-through, have the same problem.)

      On 7/9/07, Jeff DelPapa <rjnerd@...> wrote:

      > Unfortunately this doesn't help us nocturnal types -- its pretty
      > common around here for the walk up facilities to close several hours
      > before the drive thru.

      > On 7/9/07, Michael Graff <michael.graff@...> wrote:

      > > Sometimes I solve the security issue by bringing my bike inside the
      > > store. It's not so much about the drive-through per se, I just want
      > > to be served with an equivalent level of convenience.

      > > On 7/9/07, Peter Rosenfeld <jprosenfeld@...> wrote:

      > > > Because my
      > > > bike typically has panniers and other stuff on it, I
      > > > didn't want to leave it locked near the street. So I
      > > > always used the drive through. But a new manager
      > > > forbade bikes to use the drive through.
    • Peter Rosenfeld
      Also, in my case, I did try to bring my bike inside and got ordered out of the joint. But they are well within their rights to do these things. I haven t
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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        Also, in my case, I did try to bring my bike inside
        and got ordered out of the joint.

        But they are well within their rights to do these
        things.

        I haven't really tried to get this particuar place to
        change their rules as I don't really care that much.
        Although, being a rather petty person, I did mention
        this to the local bike cops and suggested to them a
        better place, that is bike friendly, to go to get
        their mid-route coffee and pastries. Last time I
        checked, they actually were going to the new place.

        If I did want to bother to change their policy, I
        expect a polite letter to the main office explaining
        why I want to use the drive through and pointing out
        that bicyclists would create no real legal
        liabilities.
        This would be especially effective if I could get a
        number of bicyclists to sign the letter.

        --- Jeff DelPapa <rjnerd@...> wrote:

        > Unfortunately this doesn't help us nocturnal types
        > -- its pretty
        > common around here for the walk up facilities to
        > close several hours
        > before the drive thru.
        >
        > On 7/9/07, Michael Graff <michael.graff@...>
        > wrote:
        > > Sometimes I solve the security issue by bringing
        > my bike inside the
        > > store. It's not so much about the drive-through
        > per se, I just want
        > > to be served with an equivalent level of
        > convenience.
        > >




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      • Andrew Smolik
        There was apparently a legislative bill in Maine which received preliminary House approval last month that would require drive-thrus in that state to serve
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 10, 2007
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          There was apparently a legislative bill in Maine which received
          preliminary House approval last month that would require drive-thrus
          in that state to serve bicyclists:

          http://www.sunjournal.com/story/215810-
          3/MaineNews/Bill_says_its_all_right_to_bike_to_Wendys/

          Also, someone living in Palo Alto, California, indicated that that
          city has an ordinance mandating that drive-thrus serve bicyclists:

          http://www.cyclingmob.com/general-cycling/1938-victorias-mcdonalds-
          hamburgers-questions-policy-8.html

          Denying a hardcore-principled vehicular cyclist service at a local
          establishment could also possibly be considered a violation of civil
          rights laws if his or her principled choice of vehicle for the type
          of occasion could be treated as a "religion," whose 4th definition
          in the online dictionary at

          http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

          is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
          faith."

          Civil disobedience at restaurant drive-thrus denying service to
          bicyclists would be particularly convenient where inductive loops
          that happen to be able to detect a bicycle are used to trigger an
          intercom, and no in-person or other visual communication is
          available, for the placement of an order. I would suppose that many
          restaurants begin preparing the order as soon as it is taken,
          especially if the drive-thru line is full between the location of
          the intercom and the location(s) of making payment and/or picking-up
          the order. If enough bicyclists, or instances of a single bicyclist,
          at varying random times are refused to be given their already-
          prepared food, then the restaurant will probably need to waste a lot
          of food (and hence expenses)!

          Also, if a drive-thru happens to accept payment via a self-service
          credit or debit card swiping machine at the location of ordering yet
          the customer is denied the food ordered, then the restaurant would
          be required to "serve" the customer in person anyway via a refund.
          Otherwise, the customer could dispute or chargeback the charge with
          the credit or debit card company. Either way, it would hopefully
          burden the restaurant enough as to convince it to change its bigoted
          policy.

          Furthermore, I had eventually realized that some drive-thrus even
          have inductive loops at the in-person pick-up window. When in a
          Burger King drive-thru in Thousand Oaks, California, with bicycle
          several years ago, where I managed to trip the inductive loops both
          at the intercom and pick-up window and where I was served, the
          cashier / pick-up-window attendant was surprised that my bicycle was
          setting-off the detectors; he said that "kids" on bikes in the past
          couldn't.

          I had also been served during one occasion with bicycle at a Burger
          King drive-thru in Bellevue, Washington, during the summer of 1999
          when I apparently tripped the detectors. However, I was refused
          bicycle drive-thru service up to a year or two earlier at a Burger
          King drive-thru in Champaign, Illinois, around the University of
          Illinois, when I did not yet know about inductive-loop detectors and
          tried to order at the pick-up window instead of at the intercom.
          Such refused service was at night when the inside of the restaurant
          was already closed, and it was despite this drive-thru having served
          nonmotorized customers at night in previous instances. I complained
          to the corporate headquarters and received the typical B.S. response
          mentioning "safety" as the reason for their corporate policy to
          serve only motor vehicle drivers.

          The inductive loops used in drive-thrus appear to be miniature in
          size relative to most of those at traffic signals and to be almost
          adjacent to the intercom or window (i.e., not centered within the
          full width of the drive-thru lane); a single 700c bicycle wheel rim
          laid flat could probably span around most of the corners and edges
          of such a miniature loop as to trip it in most circumstances.
          However, older loops might have been paved-over and not be as
          visible.

          Andrew Smolik

          --- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, Peter Rosenfeld <jprosenfeld@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > On the public roads, this is true. But once you are on
          > private property, the rules are made by the owner.
          > They don't have to have any connection with the public
          > rules.
          >
          > They can define you as a pedestrian if they want. If
          > they have internal sidewalks not on the public
          > right-of-way, they can demand that you ride on those
          > instead of the driveways ( although I've never seen
          > this).I'm pretty sure the insurance companies do lump
          > bikes in with pedestrians in making their decisions.
          >
          > But the policy is stupid and does piss me off. There
          > is a local McDonald's in Camden, NJ that I would stop
          > at to get iced tea or coffee on my commute. Because my
          > bike typically has panniers and other stuff on it, I
          > didn't want to leave it locked near the street. So I
          > always used the drive through. But a new manager
          > forbade bikes to use the drive through, I asked why
          > and he said bikes and pedestrians could slip on the
          > oil patches at the drive through window. So I no
          > longer stop there.
          >
          > My local bank has a single ATM that is at a bank drive
          > through window. But they expect pedestrians and
          > bicyclists to also use it. There is heavy pedestrian
          > traffic there, so a lot of people on foot use it. As
          > well as bicyclists like me. The oil drops on the
          > pavement? They throw cat sand on it periodically and
          > the problem is solved.
          >
          > So the insurance companies are idiots on this
          > question. My guess is that they feel pedestrians and
          > bicyclists are too few to matter so take the easy way
          > out.
          >
          > -Peter R.
        • Kenneth O'Brien
          ... I m not intimate with the details, but my reading of it is that it assures reduced liability exposure. It is not a requirement.
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 10, 2007
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            >There was apparently a legislative bill in Maine which received
            >preliminary House approval last month that would require drive-thrus
            >in that state to serve bicyclists:
            >
            >http://www.sunjournal.com/story/215810-
            >3/MaineNews/Bill_says_its_all_right_to_bike_to_Wendys/

            I'm not intimate with the details, but my reading of it
            is that it assures reduced liability exposure. It is not
            a requirement.

            http://bikemaine.org/ld1808_about.htm

            http://bikemaine.org/ld1808_update3.htm

            Ken
          • Bruce Alan Wilson
            The private property issue only goes so far. They are providing a public service and are licensed by the State (either directly or through local political
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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              The "private property" issue only goes so far. They are providing a public
              service and are licensed by the State (either directly or through local
              political subdivision.) The "private property" argument was used to justify to
              refuse service to people of less favored race at one time, if you will recall.

              Bruce Alan Wilson

              "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of
              transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in
              heart."--Iris Murdoch



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            • Doug Huffman
              I wonder how long this thread can go on before y all realize that the 2A community has already figured a bunch of this stuff out - like the private property
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 15, 2007
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                I wonder how long this thread can go on before y'all realize that the 2A
                community has already figured a bunch of this stuff out - like the
                private property rights/personal rights issue. It isn't about "firearms"
                but about Rights and Gemeinschaft/Gesellschaft.

                About that other subject, look into the common and proper uses of
                'hoplophobia,' a bicycle being 'hoplein' (Greek).

                Schubley@... wrote:
                >
                > And Doug: your many attempts to link bicycle advocacy with firearms
                > don't stand up to a logic-inspection. See if you can go a whole six
                > months without mentioning firearms, and just focus on bicycling issues.
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