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Re: [CG] Crash types and injury severity according to NCDOT Database

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  • sggoodri
    ... local ... or ... believe that ... hand/fog line ... responsibility. ... maintained ... ignored by ... I m not sure I understand. Here in NC the shoulders
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 4, 2003
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      --- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Huffman" <2huffman@b...>
      wrote:
      > In the vast majority of the auto-cyclist collision articles in the
      local
      > papers, the motorist is 'excused' with the line 'the cyclist darted
      or
      > swerved into the lane.' And 'no charges have been filed.' I
      believe that
      > this is the result of the cyclist riding too near the right
      hand/fog line
      > and the LEO and/or the motorist grasping this to mitigate
      responsibility.
      >
      > It seems that the fog line, rather than marking the edge of the
      maintained
      > roadway, is interpreted as being just another lane stripe to be
      ignored by
      > motorists.

      I'm not sure I understand. Here in NC the shoulders are so narrow or
      non-existent there are few cases where it is practical or even
      possible to ride with one's tires to the right of the fog line, so it
      is unlikely that anyone could be accused of swerving into the lane,
      although some cyclists have swerved from one lane into another or
      completely across the lane according to the police reports I have
      seen. Fault for the few overtaking collisions on these narrow roads
      are usually assigned to the motorist here. I've seen one case where
      the driver lost control and drove onto a rare wide shoulder to hit a
      cyclist; the driver was held at fault.

      Querying the NCDOT data for Wake County I see that motorist
      overtaking amounted to 36 out of all 423 collisions. Fault was
      assigned to the bicyclist in one case, assigned to both operators in
      5 cases, assigned to the motorist in 28 cases, and could not be
      determined in 2 cases.

      Bicyclist ride/out non-intersection (i.e. driveway dart-out and mid-
      block crossings) amounted to 39 of the 423 collisions in the NCDOT
      data. Fault was assigned to the bicyclist in 35 of these cases.

      I see a lot of sensational articles on crashes that underemphasize
      the cyclist's error in a crossing type situation; I think they do
      this to be nicer to those hurt or killed, or their families, which is
      honorable. But I think news reporters could do a better job of
      accurately reporting the type of collision (i.e. overtaking versus
      crossing movements) in order for the public to better understand what
      is really happening.

      -Steve Goodridge
    • J F Scott
      ... From: sggoodri To: Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [CG] Crash types and injury
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 4, 2003
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "sggoodri" <sggoodri@...>
        To: <chainguard@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 9:38 AM
        Subject: Re: [CG] Crash types and injury severity according to NCDOT
        Database


        > I see a lot of sensational articles on crashes that underemphasize
        > the cyclist's error in a crossing type situation; I think they do
        > this to be nicer to those hurt or killed, or their families, which is
        > honorable. But I think news reporters could do a better job of
        > accurately reporting the type of collision (i.e. overtaking versus
        > crossing movements) in order for the public to better understand what
        > is really happening.
        >
        > -Steve Goodridge
        >
        Mr Goodridge has called our attention to a common problem of relying on
        secondary (in this case journalistic) data sources. The same sort of
        misreporting occurs in cause of death reports filed by MDs who report death
        from complications of hepatitis rather than cirrhossis since the latter
        diagnosis indicates that the decreased was a lush. The cold fact is that
        there is a certain age below which kiddies lack the knowledge and judgment
        to ride bikes anywhere -- nothing in VC doctrines implies that the cyclist
        can afford to be clueless and unaware of factors affecting safe operation.
        In this respect the spectacular decline in kiddie cycling will lead to fewer
        accidents and lower mortality and, paradoxically, render cycling safer in
        the public perception.

        eFin
      • Nic H.
        ... What age is this? I ve been under impression that VC is suitable for all ages, but the nature of the environment in which one cycles should be adjusted to
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 4, 2003
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          "J F Scott" <jfscott@...> jots:
          > ...The cold fact is that
          > there is a certain age below which kiddies lack the knowledge and judgment
          > to ride bikes anywhere -- nothing in VC doctrines implies that the cyclist
          > can afford to be clueless and unaware of factors affecting safe operation.

          What age is this?

          I've been under impression that VC is suitable for all ages, but the nature of the environment in which one cycles should be adjusted to fit one's skill level (those with very low skill levels should hone those skills on low-traffic roads).

          Regards,
          Nic H.



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        • CRKJLAW@aol.com
          Hello nic_he@eudoramail.com, In reference to your comment: Ø J F Scott jots: ...The Ø cold fact is that there is a certain age below
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 4, 2003
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            Hello nic_he@...,

            In reference to your comment:

            Ø "J F Scott" <jfscott@...> jots: > ...The
            Ø cold fact is that > there is a certain age below which
            Ø kiddies lack the knowledge and judgment > to ride
            Ø bikes anywhere -- nothing in VC doctrines implies that
            Ø the cyclist > can afford to be clueless and unaware
            Ø of factors affecting safe operation.

            What age is this?
            Ø I've been under impression that VC is suitable for all
            Ø ages, but the nature of the environment in which one
            Ø cycles should be adjusted to fit one's skill level (those
            Ø with very low skill levels should hone those skills on
            Ø low-traffic roads).

            Unfortunately, current standards says not to teach VC to kids under 10. Too bad 7,8 and 9 year olds are already exploring the roads.

            Chris Law
            Newark, DE
          • Nic H.
            ... I had my first on-road spill at age 7. It left me with a healthy respect for hills and gravel, as well as some long-lived scars. (That, however, was a
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 4, 2003
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              Chris Law laments:

              > Unfortunately, current standards says not to teach VC to kids under 10. Too
              > bad 7,8 and 9 year olds are already exploring the roads.

              I had my first on-road spill at age 7. It left me with a healthy respect for hills and gravel, as well as some long-lived scars.

              (That, however, was a much simpler time and place than exists today.)

              What's the rationale behind the 10-yo cutoff? Can some kind of graduated program be developed for 5-10-yos?

              Regards,
              Nic H.


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            • Bruce Rosar
              ... graduated program be developed for 5-10-yos? The mental ability to effectively deal with traffic is initially immature. The level, and rate of increase, of
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 4, 2003
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                --- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, "Nic H." wrote:
                > What's the rationale behind the 10-yo cutoff? Can some kind of
                graduated program be developed for 5-10-yos?

                The mental ability to effectively deal with traffic is initially
                immature. The level, and rate of increase, of that ability varies
                with each child. That diversity creates a challenge for the
                effective teaching of driving to a group of children. There are some
                interesting papers on the subject, including:

                "Help Your Children Be Better Pedestrians and Bicyclists"
                <http://www.bhsi.org/children.htm>

                "Child Development and the aims of road safety education"
                <http://www.roads.dft.gov.uk/roadsafety/aims/>
                In the Conclusions and Recommendations section we find:

                "1. We consider the specifying of a general theoretical framework to
                be an indispensable requirement in the effort to develop effective
                and coherent educational countermeasures."

                "2. It is important that far more consideration should be given to
                behaviour..."

                "3. ... The evidence shows that, even at a very young age,
                children's actions and decision-making can be raised to a more
                sophisticated level, provided that appropriate training is provided."

                "4. There is strong evidence that practical training is by far the
                most effective means of improving children's skills and judgements,
                particularly among younger children."

                Bruce Rosar
              • Bob and Barbara Boyce
                John Forester has taught VC to eight-year olds. Bob Boyce Lincoln, Nebraska, site of the Tour de Lincoln from May to October, 2003. For details see
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 4, 2003
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                  John Forester has taught VC to eight-year olds.
                   
                  Bob Boyce
                  Lincoln, Nebraska, site of the "Tour de Lincoln" from May to October, 2003. For details see www.artscene.org.  
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: CRKJLAW@... [mailto:CRKJLAW@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 8:12 PM
                  To: chainguard@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [CG] Crash types and injury severity according to NCDOT Database

                  Hello nic_he@...,

                  In reference to your comment:

                  Ø "J F Scott" <jfscott@...> jots: > ...The
                  Ø cold fact is that > there is a certain age below which
                  Ø kiddies lack the knowledge and judgment > to ride
                  Ø bikes anywhere -- nothing in VC doctrines implies that
                  Ø the cyclist > can afford to be clueless and unaware
                  Ø of factors affecting safe operation.

                  What age is this?
                  Ø I've been under impression that VC is suitable for all
                  Ø ages, but the nature of the environment in which one
                  Ø cycles should be adjusted to fit one's skill level (those
                  Ø with very low skill levels should hone those skills on
                  Ø low-traffic roads).

                  Unfortunately, current standards says not to teach VC to kids under 10. Too bad 7,8 and 9 year olds are already exploring the roads.

                  Chris Law
                  Newark, DE


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                • sggoodri
                  I see a substantial volume of children under age 10 cycling on 2-lane residential culs-de-sac, loop roads, and collectors. They usually just do laps for
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 5, 2003
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                    I see a substantial volume of children under age 10 cycling on 2-lane
                    residential culs-de-sac, loop roads, and collectors. They usually
                    just do laps for entertainment; on occasion they travel to visit a
                    neighbor in the same subdivision or access a neighborhood park.

                    About 3/4 of the child cycling is done on sidewalks, even on the
                    lowest volume streets. However, that cycling is against traffic half
                    the time, and the rate of compliance with traffic law at junctions or
                    before crossing the street is very low. The cyclists frequently
                    swerve out from a driveway without looking, and blow through stop
                    signs without looking. Through my expereince watching child cyclists,
                    I have on several occasions anticipated child cyclists darting out
                    into the street from the sidewalk or curb without looking. I slowed
                    my car down in preparation, and stopped my car to avoid collision in
                    each case.

                    Given that motorists slow way, way down when they see a young child
                    cyclist already in the roadway on a residential street, but drive
                    more confidently when the cyclist is on the sidewalk, I believe that
                    teaching young children VC techniques on 2-lane residential roads
                    cannot reduce their safety, and can only improve it.

                    Steve Goodridge
                  • Bruce Rosar
                    ... Note that initial practical training (whether inadvertent or deliberate) which is not coherent with proper operation is an effective means of forming
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 5, 2003
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                      --- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Rosar" wrote:
                      > "4. There is strong evidence that practical training is by far
                      > the most effective means of improving children's skills and
                      > judgements, particularly among younger children."

                      Note that initial practical training (whether inadvertent or
                      deliberate) which is not coherent with proper operation is an
                      effective means of forming operator prejudices which favor improper
                      operation.

                      Bruce Rosar
                    • John Forester
                      It has been remarked that Unfortunately, current standards says not to teach VC to kids under 10. Too bad 7,8 and 9 year olds are already exploring the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 5, 2003
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                        It has been remarked that "Unfortunately, current standards says not to
                        teach VC to kids under 10. Too bad 7,8 and 9 year olds are already
                        exploring the roads."

                        Nic H. also questioned the 10 year old cutoff.

                        "Current standards" created by whom? So far as I know, I am the only person
                        who has investigated the ages of children at which they can learn vehicular
                        cycling. My reports on this subject have been available for about 20 years,
                        and have been available on my website www.johnforester.com for five years
                        or so. Those people who put together the LAB Kids programs clearly never
                        learned from my writings, and produced programs that, in my opinion, manage
                        to combine incompetence with excessive danger.

                        I have participated in city rides with club cyclists who included parents
                        with children as young as seven, and all went well. When a child grows up
                        with competent cycling, the skill obviously gets learned early.

                        Therefore, the youngest children that I enrolled in my test class (a summer
                        event) were those who had either just left third grade or would be entering
                        third grade in the fall. That means that some were probably as young as
                        seven, though most were eight. At the close of the course, I tested them
                        according to the Forester Cycling Proficiency Test on two-lane residential
                        roads carrying the normal traffic for those roads. No problems, class
                        average score about 95% when 70% is minimum pass and the adult general
                        cycling population in the area scored 55%.

                        I enrolled another group, children who had either just left fifth grade or
                        were to enter fifth grade in the fall. Those I tested on up to four-lane
                        streets with medium-speed shopping traffic. Again, no problems and class
                        average scores about 95%. For that matter, I led those students onto a
                        six-lane main arterial, but that was just a right turn on, one block, right
                        turn off, to allow the test route to follow the four-lane shopping streets
                        on which normal maneuvers were performed.

                        John Forester MS, PE
                        7585 Church St.
                        Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
                        619-644-5481
                        www.johnforester.com
                      • Nic H.
                        ... It seems that some amount of inconsistency will be inevitable--especially at younger ages. The goal of a program should be to minimize (not eliminate)
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 5, 2003
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                          "Bruce Rosar" reasons:

                          > Note that initial practical training (whether inadvertent or
                          > deliberate) which is not coherent with proper operation is an
                          > effective means of forming operator prejudices which favor improper
                          > operation.

                          It seems that some amount of inconsistency will be inevitable--especially at younger ages. The goal of a program should be to minimize (not eliminate) inconsistency but also to continuously introduce kids to new skills and concepts that are consistent with their abilities. These new skills will, to an extent, require "unlearning" of some of the prior stuff.

                          What VC elements could be taught to kids, even younger than the 8yos taught by John Forester, as either "pure" elements or in ways that would minimize the amount of unlearning necessary later on?

                          Regards,
                          Nic H.


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                        • Bruce Rosar
                          ... Prejudices, once formed, are extremely difficult to unlearn later. For example; almost all of the students in my E.C. courses have done well on their end
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 5, 2003
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                            --- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, "Nic H." wrote:
                            > Bruce R. wrote:
                            > > ...initial practical training ...
                            > > which is not coherent with proper operation is an
                            > > effective means of forming operator prejudices which favor
                            > > improper operation.
                            >
                            > It seems that some amount of inconsistency will be inevitable--
                            > especially at younger ages. The goal of a program should be to
                            > minimize (not eliminate) inconsistency but also to continuously
                            > introduce kids to new skills and concepts that are consistent with
                            > their abilities. These new skills will, to an extent,
                            > require "unlearning" of some of the prior stuff.

                            Prejudices, once formed, are extremely difficult to unlearn later.
                            For example; almost all of the students in my E.C. courses have done
                            well on their end of course tests. Later candid observation of
                            former students in traffic leads me to conclude that those who had
                            formed contradictory prejudices prior to the course (such as "all
                            people become inferior road users when cycling") did not unlearn
                            those beliefs.

                            Unless learning (whether inadvertent or deliberate) an aspect of
                            vehicle operation can't be delayed for survival reasons (in other
                            words, they'll die if they can't drive away from predators in that
                            situation), then the better long-term option is to hold off on the
                            initial practical training of that aspect until the trainee is
                            capable of learning it properly.

                            Bruce Rosar
                          • Stanley Batt
                            Bruce R. wrote: Prejudices, once formed, are extremely difficult to unlearn later. For example; almost all of the students in my E.C. courses have done well on
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 6, 2003
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                              Bruce R. wrote:

                              Prejudices, once formed, are extremely difficult to unlearn later. For example; almost all of the students in my E.C. courses have done well on their end of course tests. Later candid observation of former students in traffic leads me to conclude that those who had formed contradictory prejudices prior to the course (such as "all people become inferior road users when cycling") did not unlearn those beliefs.

                              Unless learning (whether inadvertent or deliberate) an aspect of vehicle operation can't be delayed for survival reasons � then the better long-term option is to hold off on the initial practical training of that aspect until the trainee is capable of learning it properly.

                               

                              SB:

                              Leaving aside his personal definition of "prejudice" as well as the hackneyed pschological profiling, Bruce has raised two interesting issues.

                               

                              What "inadvertent or deliberate training" formed his former students' "contradictory prejudices" prior to his "proper" course?

                               

                              Bruce's observations about the EC graduates actual cycling behavior directly contradict the claims and assumptions of other promoters of the Effective Cycling program. Such salesmen assume that the students' future cycling behavior will be IAW the tenants of the class instructions. The amazing safety gains promised are predicated on this assumption.

                              Bruce's observations clearly contradict the core assumption that EC teaching of "proper" cycling and associated high scores on the EC Test can be correlated in any way with future events/results.

                              Stanley Batt


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                            • Bruce Rosar
                              ... My Effective Cycling training was conducted under what I think of as the original LAW national educational program, requiring months of study, practice,
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 6, 2003
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                                --- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Rosar" wrote:
                                > Prejudices, once formed, are extremely difficult to unlearn later.
                                > For example; almost all of the students in my E.C. courses have
                                > done
                                > well on their end of course tests. Later candid observation of
                                > former students in traffic leads me to conclude that those who had
                                > formed contradictory prejudices prior to the course (such as "all
                                > people become inferior road users when cycling") did not unlearn
                                > those beliefs.

                                My Effective Cycling training was conducted under what I think of as
                                the "original" LAW national educational program, requiring months of
                                study, practice, and then teaching a thirty hour Adult EC course
                                under the supervision of an Advisor (thanks Richard!) before taking
                                the ECI tests.

                                After I became a ECI trainee, but before I received my certificate,
                                LAW/LAB replaced the EC course with a hierarchy of "mini" courses.
                                All the classes that I've taught on my own have used LAB's Road I
                                curriculum and materials. None of the students I later observed
                                candidly in traffic were graduates of the thirty hour Adult EC
                                course.

                                Bruce Rosar
                                ECI #319
                              • John Forester
                                Stanley has made the astute, although mistaken, remark that: Bruce s observations about the EC graduates actual cycling behavior directly contradict the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 6, 2003
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                                  Stanley has made the astute, although mistaken, remark that: "Bruce's
                                  observations about the EC graduates actual cycling behavior directly
                                  contradict the claims and assumptions of other promoters of the Effective
                                  Cycling program. Such salesmen assume that the students' future cycling
                                  behavior will be IAW the tenants of the class instructions. The amazing
                                  safety gains promised are predicated on this assumption. Bruce's
                                  observations clearly contradict the core assumption that EC teaching of
                                  "proper" cycling and associated high scores on the EC Test can be correlated
                                  in any way with future events/results."

                                  Yes, indeed Stanley. Your views have certainly been successful. It is
                                  certainly a reasonable argument that it has been the evil effect of people
                                  with your opinions that turned the Effective Cycling Program into the LAB
                                  Bike Ed Program. When an organization that is supposedly of cyclists turns
                                  away from its original duty to do good for cyclists to devote its efforts to
                                  getting cyclists off the roads to suit the desires of the anti-motorists,
                                  the motorists, and the bicycle sellers, it is not very likely that it would
                                  devote any significant effort to teaching people how to ride safely,
                                  cooperatively, and efficiently on the roads. That is why, Dear Stanley, what
                                  you evidently have not yet learned, several years ago I revoked LAB's
                                  license to use the Effective Cycling name. The use of that name, and some
                                  other associated rights, was conditional upon continuing to use the
                                  Effective Cycling Program, with improvements if it produced any such. Since
                                  LAB did not continue to use the Effective Cycling Program, but utterly
                                  degraded it to the level approved by people such as yourself, Dear Stanley,
                                  it forfeited the right to pretend that it was teaching Effective Cycling.


                                  John Forester MS, PE
                                  7585 Church St.
                                  Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
                                  619-644-5481
                                  www.johnforester.com
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