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Dave Sim's blogandmail #16 (September 27th, 2006)

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  • Jeff Tundis
    Wednesday September 27 - Last week s Blog & Mail was brought to you by Dave Sim Collected Letters 2004 You can t buy a better corrective for the Dave
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006

      Wednesday September 27 -

      Last week's Blog & Mail was brought to you by

      Dave Sim Collected Letters 2004

      "You can't buy a better corrective for the Dave Sim-challenged and those with Dave Sim issues in your life. Compassionate, caring, loving, a devoted family man. Dave Sim is none of these things. It's all just ideas and hair-splitting arguments and sophistry and even when he talks about Jennifer Lopez or Beyonce Knowles he doesn't get into what they would be like in the sack or tell you where you can find a website with the best shots of their boobs hanging out of their dresses. Frankly, I don't get the point at all."

      Albert Einstein,

      [I absolutely swear: at a séance I was at the

      other night. He looked just like his photos,

      too. I absolutely swear to you.]

      Dave Sim Collected Letters 2004

      Available at better comic book stores somewhere in the Tri-state area

      But don't ask me which ones because I think the idea that the book is available in any comic-book store probably qualifies as a serious delusion on my part that I'm just not in the right space to deal with that fact at this point in my life, you know?

      Or order on-line at

      www.followingcerebus

      .com

      Last week's Blog & Mail (and this spill-over addition) was dedicated with the greatest respect and admiration to Chris Woerner, serving with US Forces in Baghdad even as you read this, stationed in one of Saddam's old palaces. Talk about a room with a view. God willing he comes back to us safe and sound and we'll be seeing him at one or another of the Yahoo get-togethers—maybe SPACE in April of '07? Say, if anybody has an idea of what we can do with the trade paperbacks before we send them over to make them less inclined to turn into trade paperback stew (glue bindings on books melt in the Iraqi heat, I've been told) please feel free to post your favourite recipe here ("Then take a small spatula and carefully extracting the remaining glue residue…").

      Okay, I'm going to have to be a little careful here because today's entry deals with Alex Robinson and he sure didn't have any idea that I was going to be doing this Blog when he wrote to me on 6 September or that I intended to use excerpts from people's letters without permission. [I also apologize for getting these columns out of order—I kept juggling them, trying to minimize the "emotional trauma" they were apt wreak in feminist circles—and ending up promising that this column would appear last Sunday in doing so. Last week I did two Tuesday columns by accident. Jeff Tundis suggested that I type the days of the week in a single column at the beginning of my work on a week's worth of Blog & Mails and I took his excellent suggestion this week, so everything should be straightened out from now on].

      He writes, "It was also good to see you at SPACE, though I wish we could've spoken some more in a less noisy setting. It was also strange because at one point I noticed that a few people had gathered around us and were just listening to us converse, without actually participating. I'm sure you're used to it by this time, being the former godfather of self-publishing and all, but it was a very disconcerting experience to me, almost like being on stage."

      Well, truer words were never spoken (and the subtext makes me even more hesitant about quoting Alex here) but I think it's just a difference in perspective. I'm so used to it by now, I didn't even notice our "audience" per se. I started off doing fanzines, Alex started off doing mini-comics and here we were in an environment where we were THE Dave Sim and THE Alex Robinson and in that context—a night-before party at a small-press convention—I just think it polite to let people listen in who are, in their turn, starting off. It gives them a sense of connection (however valid or invalid that sense might actually be) which I think is a major part of small press events.

      Of course the subject also touches on issues of privacy that I've had to give up since publicly stating that I'm not a feminist and that I advocate non-feminist political choices. Feminists never attack ideas they always attack you personally which leaves you with two choices: let them tear you to pieces in absentia with rumour and innuendo or adopt the view that everything about your life is public and an open book, there's no such thing as a private correspondence or a private conversation because anything you do privately is going to get "spun" by the feminists into some form of foundation for further character assassination.

      But, I'm getting ahead of myself.

      Alex and I have a long history that goes back to him sending me copies of Box Office Poison in the original digest comic format I mentioned above and I was always pulling for him to make it and always gratified when another issue arrived with the familiar return address. Needless to say, having watched his painstaking and hard-fought for progress, I'm a HUGE fan of his latest graphic novel, Tricked, and made a point to write him a long letter about it after buying it and devouring in one afternoon shortly after it came out (he sent me a copy sometime between my buying it and writing to him). Years ago, on those occasions when we were both set up at the same small press or mainstream con, I'd wander by his table and say, "Wow. THE Alex Robinson." It's a good example of a joke that later comes true and threatens to devour you. Alex freely confesses to have lifted a few of my storytelling tricks (far more obvious in Box Office Poison than it was in Tricked—he's definitely become his own man) and might even have been charged with being a Dave Sim clone at one point. But, in the future? It would be no great surprise to hear: "Ah, Alex Robinson. Yes, brilliant graphic novelist. Have you ever heard of Dave Sim? No? No, most people haven't. He did this largely forgotten work called Cerebus. See if you can dig up some of the issues from the mid-1980s and you'll see a lot of where Alex Robinson came from." There's no point in trying to argue with it. If it happens it happens. I got a letter a while ago from someone who had just discovered Barry Windsor-Smith's work and was amazed to see just how profoundly he had influenced my own work how much of his Gorblimey Press stuff and his later Conan material I lifted practically intact. Several people have told me that they had no idea that Lord Julius was based on someone until they ran across the Marx Brothers by accident!

      The ultimate verdict of art history is always out of our hands.

      Anyway, I'm friendly enough with Alex and have enough history with him (which is a little different than the situation with Batton Lash—I inadvertently influenced Batton through my Pro Con speech to write Archie vs. Punisher and use the proceeds as seed money to start Exhibit A Press and that's really where the professional connection begins and ends) that I just flat-out asked him in my last letter if his crazed misogynistic character Steve in Tricked was based on me.

      "I was surprised that you would think that the character Steve was you. If that was really what I thought of you, why would I send you the book? I know your stock has fallen a bit in this stupid industry, but I didn't think you got many people insulting you directly to your face."

      I didn't think that was the type of person that you are but there are very few people who have genuinely and sincerely been charged with misogyny in our industry (or in society in general for that matter) and none where no voice has been raised in his defence—I'm the only one I can think of aside from, perhaps, Robert Crumb and he's pretty much "vouched for" by being married to Aline Kominsky whereas as far as I know I'm under universal female indictment for having broken the hearts of D.L., D.S. and S. A. (discretion really is the better part of chivalry) in the ranks of my industry "conquests" (they broke their own hearts, in my view, all I did was refuse to capitulate to their feminist politics—a subject for another time). And Steve in Tricked was definitely a truly misogynistic character which is also virtually unique in the field (as well as in society in general) so based on my alleged misogyny (which, in my view, is really just opposition to what I see as feminist excesses) if that had been your intention—to document comics' only universally agreed-upon misogynist with a genuinely misogynistic character—I thought it would at least make for a fruitful and open discussion if you thought, as an example, that I was in some way slighting your better half (as seemed to be the case with Batton Lash—at least from his better half's point of view) on the only occasion that Kristen and I chatted at SPACE (2003, I believe).

      The most recent person to violate the Dave Sim radio silence dictated by the comic-book feminists was Dirk Deppey in his Comics Journal interview with Terry Moore who, apropos nothing, suddenly launched into

      About a year and a half ago, we did a critics' roundtable on Dave Sim, and I'm sure you're aware of his, what's the euphemism, "controversial" views on men versus women. I have to say that the official

      Comics Journal line was best described the first time around they did this, which basically, had an artist's rendering of Sim as the commandant at a concentration camp for women. I have a difficult time working up that level of antagonism towards Sim's views, not because I agree with them, but because most men and women I know really do view the opposite sex as the opposite species on one level or another. The whole men-are-from-Mars-women-are-from-Venus thing is fairly ingrained not just in our culture, but virtually all cultures. Sim just went a little overboard in trying to turn it into an all-encompassing, goofy-ass theory, in my opinion.

      Again, there is no effort to address my ideas, they are just declared "goofy ass" and that's expected to be the end of it. Again, I find that intellectually dishonest. Lawrence Summers—before feminists hounded him from his office as Harvard president—addressed a core biological reality that women are incapable of competing in the advanced maths and sciences even though thanks to the excesses of affirmative action they outnumber men by a wide margin at the start of the academic "race". In both instances we were labelled as misogynists even though we were just making an observation based on empirical evidence. With all deference to Mr. Deppey—who is, I grant you, an improvement over his predecessors at the Journal in this area—the intellectual dishonesty in continually evading what Lawrence Summers and I and people like us are saying by suggesting we have "goofy ass" theories and that we should content ourselves with being dismissed out of hand in that way goes well beyond the feel-good parameters of "men are from Mars women are from Venus". If you want to be intellectually dishonest on the subject of feminism, that is your fundamental right but I would appreciate it if people would stop deprecating me and Lawrence Summers and others like us just because we base our views on empirical evidence. Either refute our views with contrary empirical evidence or, you know, stop referring to them as "goofy ass" as if you have already refuted them.

      Anyway, on to happier subjects:

      Thanks very much, indeed, for sending along Husky, the two-headed digest with the first chapter of your 2 Cool 2 B 4gotten and Tony Consiglio's Titanius. An actual brand new Alex Robinson digest comic. Just like old times. Is it just me or this a kind of mano a mano "who's actually going to finish their story first?" kind of gig? Anyway, splendid shot by Kristen of you two boys in tuxedos and sporting a couple of spiffy cheroots really badly reproduced. Is that a vest Consiglio is wearing or have the shingles come back so bad that they're now actually growing out through his shirt? Scandal-mongering bloggers and the comic-reading public have a right to know. Maybe Alex has the original photo posted at http://members.aol.com/ComicBookAlex or can put it up there sometime soon for verification by any of the Yahoos specializing in skin ailments (yep. Looks like shingles all right. Right through his dress shirt. Yeccch.)

      Tony and Alex have been hanging out together since their days at SVA in one of Will Eisner's classes where they were (how can I put this?) deemed to be somewhat-less-than-exemplary students in the deportment department. Tony tells one of my favourite stories about Will coming over to his and Alex's table at a comic-book convention (San Diego?) and has really gotten tired of me dragging him across the room at SPACE to tell yet another complete stranger (the last one was Jason Trimmer as I recall). Tony is easily one of the funniest guys in comics (not quite Evan Dorkin level but definitely up there) and I always look forward to new work by him. If we can get a hundred or so people to check out his website at http://members.aol.com/DoubleTony we might even be able to persuade him to post the Eisner story. Also recommended is his latest book from Top Shelf, 110 Per[cents sign. Why doesn't my keyboard have a "cents sign"? I never noticed that before. Somehow I just know this is all Tony's doing! Curse you, Tony Consiglio!]

      Alex's contribution gets off to a running start. There's a quality to writing a serialized graphic novel that's quite different from just writing a comic book and, I suspect, different from writing a non-serialized graphic novel and Alex, it seems to me, has that nebulous quality pretty much nailed. Tricked was non-serialized and Box Office Poison was serialized. I've only done "serialized" (so far). How quickly do you have to get into the story and how much information do you have to impart in how short a time seems to me the core of the aptitude. Here Alex gets a lot of the information across in the form of a patient's questionnaire at a holistic medicine center and an interior monologue that is one large block of text in the iconic shape of the narrator's face, both really good ways of accomplishing the necessary task that don't impede the narrative flow or call unnecessary attention to themselves. The result is that you get (by my estimation) roughly 22 pages of narrative in 16 pages. That's a very good proportion to hit in a medium where so much of the narrative challenge is how you condense information without appearing to do so, so that you can let conversations between characters take a more natural-sounding (to the reader's inner narrative ear which he or she isn't usually aware of unless he or she happens to also be a cartoonist) course.

      Today's edition of The Blog & Mail has been brought to you by

      Page 139 of Dave Sim: Collected Letters 2004

      (one page? Only one stinking page for Eisner-Award winning Alex Robinson and nothing for Tony Consiglio? Sad but true. Nowadays I just clip out all of the appearances of Alex and Tony from the comics press and glue them into big scrapbooks. I don't know what that's all about. I'll decide to go and pick up groceries and two hours later I'll "come to" with a bowl of soggy cereal I haven't touched in front of me and just, you know thumbing aimlessly through scrapbook after scrapbook with the big colour photos of Alex and Tony from WizardWorld and San Diego Comic-con. Frankly, I'm getting a little worried about myself)

      Dave Sim: Collected Letters 2004

      Available at better comic book stores, gathering dust and stuffed in behind big piles of Alex Robinson and Tony Consiglio "new hot releases"

      Or order online at

      www.followingcerebus.com

    • Rick Sharer
      ... What do you think Mr. Seiler...is Dave describing Chris J, or what?!? Har. Oh yeah, and Brian. :/ ... Damn straight. Ah, Dave, if they would only put
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
        --- Jeff Tundis <jctundis@...> wrote:

        >
        > Wednesday September 27 -
        >
        > Last week's Blog & Mail was brought to you by
        >
        > Dave Sim Collected Letters 2004
        > Feminists never attack
        > ideas they always attack you personally

        What do you think Mr. Seiler...is Dave describing
        Chris J, or what?!? Har.

        Oh yeah, and Brian. :/


        > Again, there is no effort to address my ideas, they
        > are just declared
        > "goofy ass" and that's expected to be the end of it.

        Damn straight. Ah, Dave, if they would only put on
        boxing gloves!

        A dismissive label id the Feminist m.o.

        I've seen it here and elsewhere time and time again.

        > Either refute our
        > views with contrary empirical evidence or, you know,
        > stop referring to
        > them as "goofy ass" as if you have already refuted
        > them.

        Everybody hear that?!? Heh. :)

        TTM


        __________________________________________________
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      • Chris Johnson
        ... If Jeff *had* any ideas, you might have a point...and for the record, now that Jeff has admitted that he is a hypocritical liar on so many occaisions, it
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
          Rick wheezed:

          > > Wednesday September 27 -
          > >
          > > Last week's Blog & Mail was brought to you by
          > >
          > > Dave Sim Collected Letters 2004
          > > Feminists never attack
          > > ideas they always attack you personally
          >
          > What do you think Mr. Seiler...is Dave describing
          > Chris J, or what?!? Har.

          If Jeff *had* any ideas, you might have a point...and for the record, now that Jeff has admitted that he is a hypocritical liar on so many occaisions, it can't really be an attack, can it? It's just stating the facts. (Now if he could just stop *doing* it (along with the self-righteousness), we might have something...)

          > > Again, there is no effort to address my ideas, they
          > > are just declared
          > > "goofy ass" and that's expected to be the end of it.
          >
          > Damn straight. Ah, Dave, if they would only put on
          > boxing gloves!
          >
          > A dismissive label id the Feminist m.o.

          Coming from you and Dave, the irony is overwhelming.

          > I've seen it here and elsewhere time and time again.
          >
          > > Either refute our
          > > views with contrary empirical evidence or, you know,
          > > stop referring to
          > > them as "goofy ass" as if you have already refuted
          > > them.
          >
          > Everybody hear that?!? Heh. :)

          Again, the irony. It would help if Dave (and you) actually *had* any empirical evidence. Instead, he uses anecdote, spurious logic, and other rhetorical faux pas to make his "point"s.

          Chris

          np: Alabama 3 - Live At Glastonbury 2005
        • Larry
          ... Funny, I ve seen it--well, heard anyway--on conservative talk radio. Time and time again. - Larry Hart
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
            --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Rick Sharer <rlsharer@...> wrote:
            >

            > > Feminists never attack
            > > ideas they always attack you personally
            >
            > ...
            >
            > A dismissive label id the Feminist m.o.
            >
            > I've seen it here and elsewhere time and time again.
            >

            Funny, I've seen it--well, "heard" anyway--on conservative talk
            radio. Time and time again.

            - Larry Hart
          • Rick Sharer
            ... Go Fish! ... He jabs! ... OK, now look...playing the part of Clinton (or, redefining is ) is *not* going to change History. Leave that job to Steve. Heh.
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
              --- Chris Johnson self-imploded:

              > Rick wheezed:

              Go Fish!

              > > What do you think Mr. Seiler...is Dave describing
              > > Chris J, or what?!? Har.
              >
              > If Jeff *had* any ideas, you might have a
              > point...

              He jabs!

              > and for the record, now that Jeff has
              > admitted that he is a hypocritical liar on so many
              > occaisions, it can't really be an attack, can it?

              OK, now look...playing the part of Clinton (or,
              redefining "is") is *not* going to change History.
              Leave that job to Steve. Heh.

              > > A dismissive label is the Feminist m.o.
              >
              > Coming from you and Dave, the irony is overwhelming.

              It's called Fighting Back. Getting Dirty. Fire with
              Fire. At least we can admit to it, and not
              rationalize it!

              > > I've seen it here and elsewhere time and time
              > again.
              > >
              > > > Either refute our
              > > > views with contrary empirical evidence or, you
              > know,
              > > > stop referring to
              > > > them as "goofy ass" as if you have already
              > refuted
              > > > them.
              > >
              > > Everybody hear that?!? Heh. :)
              >
              > Again, the irony.

              A spoonful of sugar.

              > It would help if Dave (and you)
              > actually *had* any empirical evidence. Instead, he
              > uses anecdote, spurious logic, and other rhetorical
              > faux pas to make his "point"s.

              "Same as it ever was."

              TTM


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              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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            • Rick Sharer
              ... No shit? For Real? You listen to conservative talk radio? Heh. TTM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
                --- Larry <larrytheillini@...> wrote:

                > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Rick Sharer
                > <rlsharer@...> wrote:
                > >
                >
                > > > Feminists never attack
                > > > ideas they always attack you personally
                > >
                > > ...
                > >
                > > A dismissive label id the Feminist m.o.
                > >
                > > I've seen it here and elsewhere time and time
                > again.
                > >
                >
                > Funny, I've seen it--well, "heard" anyway--on
                > conservative talk
                > radio. Time and time again.

                No shit? For Real? You listen to conservative talk
                radio?

                Heh.

                TTM



                __________________________________________________
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                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com
              • Rick Sharer
                ... Oh, the Irony! TTM heh __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
                  --- Rick Sharer <rlsharer@...> wrote:

                  > > > A dismissive label is the Feminist m.o.
                  > >
                  > > Coming from you and Dave, the irony is
                  > overwhelming.
                  >
                  > It's called Fighting Back. Getting Dirty. Fire
                  > with
                  > Fire. At least we can admit to it, and not
                  > rationalize it!

                  Oh, the Irony!

                  TTM
                  heh



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                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                • Jeff Seiler
                  ... called the hypocritical liar. ;) ... hominem with you, but I think sometimes you earn it. Not that I haven t earned a little bit of ad hominem from
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
                    --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Rick Sharer <rlsharer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- Jeff Tundis <jctundis@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Wednesday September 27 -
                    > >
                    > > Last week's Blog & Mail was brought to you by
                    > >
                    > > Dave Sim Collected Letters 2004
                    > > Feminists never attack
                    > > ideas they always attack you personally
                    >
                    > What do you think Mr. Seiler...is Dave describing
                    > Chris J, or what?!? Har.

                    -----So totally Chris Johnson. That's why I capitulated to being
                    called the hypocritical liar. ;)

                    >
                    > Oh yeah, and Brian. :/

                    -----Mm, you're on your own with him. I think he's somewhat ad
                    hominem with you, but I think sometimes you earn it. Not that I
                    haven't earned a little bit of ad hominem from Chris, once I allowed
                    myself to stoop to his level with that bit about his syphillitic
                    mother. . .

                    >
                    >
                    > > Again, there is no effort to address my ideas, they
                    > > are just declared
                    > > "goofy ass" and that's expected to be the end of it.
                    >
                    > Damn straight. Ah, Dave, if they would only put on
                    > boxing gloves!

                    -----Nah, I'd rather keep the "boxing" limited to the hypothetical
                    squared circle.


                    > A dismissive label id the Feminist m.o.

                    -----This is a non-sequitor to me. Huh?

                    >
                    > I've seen it here and elsewhere time and time again.
                    >
                    > > Either refute our
                    > > views with contrary empirical evidence or, you know,
                    > > stop referring to
                    > > them as "goofy ass" as if you have already refuted
                    > > them.
                    >
                    > Everybody hear that?!? Heh. :)

                    -----I second that emotion.

                    Jeff, the lying hypocrite


                    >
                    > TTM
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                  • Jeff Seiler
                    ... record, now that Jeff has admitted that he is a hypocritical liar on so many occaisions, it can t really be an attack, can it? It s just stating the facts.
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
                      --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Johnson" <cjohnson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Rick wheezed:
                      >
                      > > > Wednesday September 27 -
                      > > >
                      > > > Last week's Blog & Mail was brought to you by
                      > > >
                      > > > Dave Sim Collected Letters 2004
                      > > > Feminists never attack
                      > > > ideas they always attack you personally
                      > >
                      > > What do you think Mr. Seiler...is Dave describing
                      > > Chris J, or what?!? Har.
                      >
                      > If Jeff *had* any ideas, you might have a point...and for the
                      record, now that Jeff has admitted that he is a hypocritical liar on
                      so many occaisions, it can't really be an attack, can it? It's just
                      stating the facts. (Now if he could just stop *doing* it (along with
                      the self-righteousness), we might have something...)

                      -----Piss off, jerkwad.


                      > > > Again, there is no effort to address my ideas, they
                      > > > are just declared
                      > > > "goofy ass" and that's expected to be the end of it.
                      > >
                      > > Damn straight. Ah, Dave, if they would only put on
                      > > boxing gloves!
                      > >
                      > > A dismissive label id the Feminist m.o.
                      >
                      > Coming from you and Dave, the irony is overwhelming.
                      >
                      > > I've seen it here and elsewhere time and time again.
                      > >
                      > > > Either refute our
                      > > > views with contrary empirical evidence or, you know,
                      > > > stop referring to
                      > > > them as "goofy ass" as if you have already refuted
                      > > > them.
                      > >
                      > > Everybody hear that?!? Heh. :)
                      >
                      > Again, the irony. It would help if Dave (and you) actually *had*
                      any empirical evidence. Instead, he uses anecdote, spurious logic,
                      and other rhetorical faux pas to make his "point"s.

                      -----Actually, the empirical evidence to which Dave is obliquely
                      referring in that blog is the evidence that demonstrates that
                      females make up a slightly higher than 50 percent block of the
                      overall enrollment at post-secondary institutions of higher learning
                      in America. It's a fact and you can look it up. Furthermore, it is
                      a demonstrated fact that a higher percentage of females than males
                      score lower on math and science tests and/or graduate with math or
                      science degrees from those same post-secondary institutions of
                      higher learning.

                      That's a far cry from anecdotal evidence, "spurious logic and other
                      rhetorical faux pas."

                      Just as an aside, since I've been waiting for a chance to insert
                      this particular non-sequitor for a few weeks now, did you (well, not
                      *you*, Chris J. Johnson; the yahoo you's) know that, literally
                      translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at fault"? Of
                      course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the apposite meaning.

                      Jeff, the hypocritical liar (who calls himself that very much tongue
                      in cheek, which Chris J. Johnson misses, as usual)

                      >
                      > Chris
                      >
                      > np: Alabama 3 - Live At Glastonbury 2005
                      >
                    • Rick Sharer
                      ... Things are always easier once you give in. Heh. ... Do I have to? ... Sometimes. ... That s what happened to me with Brian. I ve learned my lesson, and
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
                        --- Jeff Seiler <seilerjeff@...> wrote:

                        > > What do you think Mr. Seiler...is Dave describing
                        > > Chris J, or what?!? Har.
                        >
                        > -----So totally Chris Johnson. That's why I
                        > capitulated to being
                        > called the hypocritical liar. ;)

                        Things are always easier once you give in. Heh.

                        > >
                        > > Oh yeah, and Brian. :/
                        >
                        > -----Mm, you're on your own with him.

                        Do I have to?

                        > I think he's
                        > somewhat ad
                        > hominem with you, but I think sometimes you earn it.

                        Sometimes.

                        > Not that I
                        > haven't earned a little bit of ad hominem from
                        > Chris, once I allowed
                        > myself to stoop to his level with that bit about his
                        > syphillitic
                        > mother. . .

                        That's what happened to me with Brian. I've learned
                        my lesson, and now I only mock him. Heh.

                        > > Damn straight. Ah, Dave, if they would only put
                        > on
                        > > boxing gloves!
                        >
                        > -----Nah, I'd rather keep the "boxing" limited to
                        > the hypothetical
                        > squared circle.

                        You don't know the power of the dark side! I
                        witnessed the Great Todd McFarlane/Peter David
                        "debate", with Peter all serious, ready to rip Todd,
                        and McFarlane showing up in boxing trunks. The
                        intellectuals were miffed, but it made for great
                        entertainment.

                        Seriously Sim vs. Estrada, proceeds to CBLDF. Heh.

                        > > A dismissive label id the Feminist m.o.
                        >
                        > -----This is a non-sequitor to me. Huh?

                        A dismissive label *is* the Feminist modus operandi.

                        > > > Either refute our
                        > > > views with contrary empirical evidence or, you
                        > know,
                        > > > stop referring to
                        > > > them as "goofy ass" as if you have already
                        > refuted
                        > > > them.
                        > >
                        > > Everybody hear that?!? Heh. :)
                        >
                        > -----I second that emotion.

                        Woot!

                        > Jeff, the lying hypocrite

                        I don't believe you! :)

                        TTM


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                      • Chris Johnson
                        ... You just can t resist can you? Why do you still make a liar of yourself, Jeff? ... Blah. Blah. Blah. Not the point at all. Color me shocked that you miss
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
                          Jeff S. made more of a liar and hypocrite of himself:

                          > > If Jeff *had* any ideas, you might have a point...and for the
                          > record, now that Jeff has admitted that he is a hypocritical liar on
                          > so many occaisions, it can't really be an attack, can it? It's just
                          > stating the facts. (Now if he could just stop *doing* it (along with
                          > the self-righteousness), we might have something...)
                          >
                          > -----Piss off, jerkwad.

                          You just can't resist can you? Why do you still make a liar of yourself, Jeff?

                          > > Again, the irony. It would help if Dave (and you) actually *had*
                          > any empirical evidence. Instead, he uses anecdote, spurious logic,
                          > and other rhetorical faux pas to make his "point"s.
                          >
                          > -----Actually, the empirical evidence to which Dave is obliquely
                          > referring in that blog is the evidence that demonstrates that
                          > females make up a slightly higher than 50 percent block of the
                          > overall enrollment at post-secondary institutions of higher learning
                          > in America. It's a fact and you can look it up. Furthermore, it is
                          > a demonstrated fact that a higher percentage of females than males
                          > score lower on math and science tests and/or graduate with math or
                          > science degrees from those same post-secondary institutions of
                          > higher learning.

                          Blah. Blah. Blah. Not the point at all. Color me shocked that you miss the forest for the trees.

                          > That's a far cry from anecdotal evidence, "spurious logic and other
                          > rhetorical faux pas."

                          I wasn't referring to any particular argument of Dave's. I was referring to his general argument/debate "style". And the fact remains, he rarely if ever uses empirical evidence, and often uses the same "tactics" that he decries his "opponents" for using.

                          *Many* people, including more than a few members of this group, have posted extensively on this phenomenon. I guess you just missed them.

                          Oh, I forgot, Super Seiler has to come in and rescue and defend Dave again. How pathetic.

                          > Just as an aside, since I've been waiting for a chance to insert
                          > this particular non-sequitor for a few weeks now, did you (well, not
                          > *you*, Chris J. Johnson; the yahoo you's) know that, literally
                          > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at fault"? Of
                          > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the apposite meaning.

                          Like many other terms. "Decimate" being a personal "favorite" peeve.

                          > Jeff, the hypocritical liar (who calls himself that very much tongue
                          > in cheek, which Chris J. Johnson misses, as usual)

                          I realize you are trying to defuse and obfuscate the facts of the matter by doing that.

                          But, the fact remains that you've admitted to lying and hypocrisy. And there are many more instances where you have not admitted it, but the record is clear.

                          We *all* see what you are trying to do, Jeff. It's kind of sad, really. You could just stop being a lying hypocrite. I kind of doubt you can give up the self-righteousness, though.

                          Chris

                          np: still the same (I love me some Alabama 3)
                        • Chris W
                          ... I didn t know that and I could care less. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 27, 2006
                            > Just as an aside, since I've been waiting for a
                            > chance to insert
                            > this particular non-sequitor for a few weeks now,
                            > did you (well, not
                            > *you*, Chris J. Johnson; the yahoo you's) know that,
                            > literally
                            > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at
                            > fault"? Of
                            > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the
                            > apposite meaning.

                            I didn't know that and I could care less.

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                          • Larry
                            ... Well, isn t it more like false not ? I kinda sorta think of it as false start , which is neither literally nor colloquially accurate, but serves as kind
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 28, 2006
                              --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Seiler" <seilerjeff@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > ...did you know that, literally
                              > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at fault"? Of
                              > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the apposite meaning.
                              >

                              Well, isn't it more like "false not"? I kinda sorta think of it
                              as "false start", which is neither literally nor colloquially
                              accurate, but serves as kind of a "how it got there" from the one to
                              the other. I think.

                              - Larry Hart
                            • Larry
                              ... Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and Karl Rove are feminists? - Larry Hart
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 28, 2006
                                --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Rick Sharer <rlsharer@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > A dismissive label *is* the Feminist modus operandi.
                                >

                                Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and Karl Rove are feminists?

                                - Larry Hart
                              • Larry
                                ... I could care less has colloquially taken on the opposite meaning of what it actually says, which is more accurately I couldN T care less. Is that what
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 28, 2006
                                  --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Chris W <show_me68508@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > literally
                                  > > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at
                                  > > fault"? Of
                                  > > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the
                                  > > apposite meaning.
                                  >
                                  > I didn't know that and I could care less.
                                  >

                                  "I could care less" has colloquially taken on the opposite meaning of
                                  what it actually says, which is more accurately "I couldN'T care less."

                                  Is that what you intentionally spoofing, Chris?

                                  - Larry Hart
                                • Chris W
                                  ... Uh, yeah. I couldn t think of any similar example for I didn t know that , so I couldn t do the same with that. Well, there are things like saying I
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 28, 2006
                                    --- Larry <larrytheillini@...> wrote:

                                    > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Chris W
                                    > <show_me68508@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > literally
                                    > > > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not
                                    > at
                                    > > > fault"? Of
                                    > > > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the
                                    > > > apposite meaning.
                                    > >
                                    > > I didn't know that and I could care less.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > "I could care less" has colloquially taken on the
                                    > opposite meaning of
                                    > what it actually says, which is more accurately "I
                                    > couldN'T care less."
                                    >
                                    > Is that what you intentionally spoofing, Chris?
                                    >
                                    > - Larry Hart
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    Uh, yeah. I couldn't think of any similar example for
                                    "I didn't know that", so I couldn't do the same with
                                    that. Well, there are things like saying "I knew
                                    that" as a joke, but that's an audio thing and
                                    wouldn't really come across.

                                    >


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                                  • Dominick Grace
                                    ... From: Chris W Date: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:38 am Subject: Re: [cerebus] Re: Dave Sim s blogandmail #16 (September 27th,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 28, 2006


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Chris W <show_me68508@...>
                                      Date: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:38 am
                                      Subject: Re: [cerebus] Re: Dave Sim's blogandmail #16 (September 27th, 2006)
                                      To: cerebus@yahoogroups.com

                                      >
                                      > > Just as an aside, since I've been waiting for a chance to insert
                                      > > this particular non-sequitor for a few weeks now, did you (well, not
                                      > > *you*, Chris J. Johnson; the yahoo you's) know that, literally
                                      > > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at fault"?  Of
                                      > > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the apposite meaning.
                                      >
                                      > I didn't know that and I could care less.
                                       
                                      Ah, but HOW MUCH less could you care? A lot less, or only a little?
                                       
                                      Dom
                                       
                                      "Workingman's Blues #2" - Bob Dylan
                                    • Rick Sharer
                                      ... Faulty logic. These three employ this specific Feminist tactic, because they found that fighting fire with fire works very well. TTM
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 28, 2006
                                        --- Larry <larrytheillini@...> wrote:

                                        > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Rick Sharer
                                        > <rlsharer@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > A dismissive label *is* the Feminist modus
                                        > operandi.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and Karl Rove are
                                        > feminists?

                                        Faulty logic. These three employ this specific
                                        Feminist tactic, because they found that fighting fire
                                        with fire works very well.

                                        TTM


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                                      • Larry
                                        ... And *that s* not blasphemy? - Larry Hart
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 28, 2006
                                          --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Tundis" <jctundis@...> wrote:

                                          > [ Dave said: ]
                                          >
                                          > ...Frankly, I don't get the point at all."
                                          >
                                          > Albert Einstein,
                                          >
                                          > [I absolutely swear: at a séance I was at the other night. He looked
                                          > just like his photos, too. I absolutely swear to you.]
                                          >

                                          And *that's* not blasphemy?

                                          - Larry Hart
                                        • John L
                                          ... Did you ever stop to think maybe he COULD care less? John L (hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?)
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 28, 2006
                                            On 9/28/06, Larry <larrytheillini@...> wrote:
                                            > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Chris W <show_me68508@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > literally
                                            > > > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at
                                            > > > fault"? Of
                                            > > > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the
                                            > > > apposite meaning.
                                            > >
                                            > > I didn't know that and I could care less.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > "I could care less" has colloquially taken on the opposite meaning of
                                            > what it actually says, which is more accurately "I couldN'T care less."
                                            >
                                            > Is that what you intentionally spoofing, Chris?
                                            >
                                            > - Larry Hart

                                            Did you ever stop to think maybe he COULD care less?

                                            John L (hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?)
                                          • John L
                                            ... See? John L
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Sep 28, 2006
                                              On 9/28/06, Dominick Grace <dgrace2@...> wrote:


                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Chris W <show_me68508@...>
                                              Date: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:38 am
                                              Subject: Re: [cerebus] Re: Dave Sim's blogandmail #16 (September 27th, 2006)
                                              To: cerebus@yahoogroups.com

                                              >
                                              > > Just as an aside, since I've been waiting for a chance to insert
                                              > > this particular non-sequitor for a few weeks now, did you (well, not
                                              > > *you*, Chris J. Johnson; the yahoo you's) know that, literally
                                              > > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at fault"?  Of
                                              > > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the apposite meaning.
                                              >
                                              > I didn't know that and I could care less.
                                               
                                              Ah, but HOW MUCH less could you care? A lot less, or only a little?
                                               
                                              Dom
                                               
                                              "Workingman's Blues #2" - Bob Dylan

                                              See?

                                              John L

                                            • dumb_juan
                                              ... er, do you care that it s absolutely... false? Who wrote this about the meaning of faux pas ? I didn t follow the thread. But faux pas literally means
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Sep 29, 2006
                                                --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Chris W <show_me68508@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Just as an aside, since I've been waiting for a
                                                > > chance to insert
                                                > > this particular non-sequitor for a few weeks now,
                                                > > did you (well, not
                                                > > *you*, Chris J. Johnson; the yahoo you's) know that,
                                                > > literally
                                                > > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at
                                                > > fault"? Of
                                                > > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the
                                                > > apposite meaning.
                                                >
                                                > I didn't know that and I could care less.

                                                er, do you care that it's absolutely... false? Who wrote this about
                                                the meaning of "faux pas" ? I didn't follow the thread. But faux pas
                                                literally means "false step". yes, "pas" can mean "not", but also a step.

                                                Who is spreading thes LIES?? ;)

                                                BillD


                                                >
                                                > __________________________________________________
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                                                >
                                              • Jeff Seiler
                                                ... pas ... a step. ... hypocrite, who first posted about faux pas . My limited high school French was not aware that pas also translated as step . That
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Sep 29, 2006
                                                  --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "dumb_juan" <abois@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Chris W <show_me68508@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Just as an aside, since I've been waiting for a
                                                  > > > chance to insert
                                                  > > > this particular non-sequitor for a few weeks now,
                                                  > > > did you (well, not
                                                  > > > *you*, Chris J. Johnson; the yahoo you's) know that,
                                                  > > > literally
                                                  > > > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not at
                                                  > > > fault"? Of
                                                  > > > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the
                                                  > > > apposite meaning.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I didn't know that and I could care less.
                                                  >
                                                  > er, do you care that it's absolutely... false? Who wrote this about
                                                  > the meaning of "faux pas" ? I didn't follow the thread. But faux
                                                  pas
                                                  > literally means "false step". yes, "pas" can mean "not", but also
                                                  a step.
                                                  >
                                                  > Who is spreading thes LIES?? ;)
                                                  >
                                                  > BillD

                                                  -----For the record, it was I, Jeff Seiler, the so-called lying
                                                  hypocrite, who first posted about "faux pas". My limited high
                                                  school French was not aware that pas also translated as "step".

                                                  That makes a lot more sense, but I still like the beauty of my
                                                  original "faux" translation.

                                                  Oh well. In the immortal words of the divine Ms.
                                                  Radner, "Nevermind."

                                                  Jeff, the so-called two-faced prevaricator
                                                • Rick Sharer
                                                  ... I don t know, but I could not care less. TTM ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Sep 29, 2006
                                                    --- dumb_juan <abois@...> wrote:

                                                    > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Chris W
                                                    > <show_me68508@...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > Just as an aside, since I've been waiting for a
                                                    > > > chance to insert
                                                    > > > this particular non-sequitor for a few weeks
                                                    > now,
                                                    > > > did you (well, not
                                                    > > > *you*, Chris J. Johnson; the yahoo you's) know
                                                    > that,
                                                    > > > literally
                                                    > > > translated, "faux pas" means "fault not" or "not
                                                    > at
                                                    > > > fault"? Of
                                                    > > > course, colloguially, it has taken on nearly the
                                                    > > > apposite meaning.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I didn't know that and I could care less.
                                                    >
                                                    > er, do you care that it's absolutely... false? Who
                                                    > wrote this about
                                                    > the meaning of "faux pas" ? I didn't follow the
                                                    > thread. But faux pas
                                                    > literally means "false step". yes, "pas" can mean
                                                    > "not", but also a step.
                                                    >
                                                    > Who is spreading thes LIES?? ;)

                                                    I don't know, but I could "not" care less.

                                                    TTM
                                                    :)

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                                                  • Chris W
                                                    ... I don t know, and I could care... oh forget it. :P ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Sep 30, 2006
                                                      > er, do you care that it's absolutely... false? Who
                                                      > wrote this about
                                                      > the meaning of "faux pas" ? I didn't follow the
                                                      > thread. But faux pas
                                                      > literally means "false step". yes, "pas" can mean
                                                      > "not", but also a step.
                                                      >
                                                      > Who is spreading thes LIES?? ;)
                                                      >
                                                      > BillD
                                                      >

                                                      I don't know, and I could care... oh forget it. :P
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > __________________________________________________
                                                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                      > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                                                      > protection around
                                                      > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >


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                                                    • Larry
                                                      ... Just remember who got your joke. - Larry Hart
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
                                                        --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Chris W <show_me68508@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > > Who is spreading thes LIES?? ;)
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        > I don't know, and I could care... oh forget it. :P

                                                        Just remember who got your joke.

                                                        - Larry Hart
                                                      • Chris W
                                                        ... I m not asking you what s the guy s game who got my joke! *listening to that routine right now, so I couldn t resist* ...
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
                                                          --- Larry <larrytheillini@...> wrote:

                                                          > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Chris W
                                                          > <show_me68508@...> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > > Who is spreading thes LIES?? ;)
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > I don't know, and I could care... oh forget it. :P
                                                          >
                                                          > Just remember who got your joke.
                                                          >
                                                          > - Larry Hart
                                                          >
                                                          >

                                                          I'm not asking you what's the guy's game who got my
                                                          joke!

                                                          *listening to that routine right now, so I couldn't
                                                          resist*

                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >


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                                                        • John L
                                                          ... Third base? John L
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                                                            On 10/2/06, Chris W <show_me68508@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > --- Larry <larrytheillini@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Chris W
                                                            > > <show_me68508@...> wrote:
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > > Who is spreading thes LIES?? ;)
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > I don't know, and I could care... oh forget it. :P
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Just remember who got your joke.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > - Larry Hart
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            > I'm not asking you what's the guy's game who got my
                                                            > joke!
                                                            >
                                                            > *listening to that routine right now, so I couldn't
                                                            > resist*

                                                            Third base?

                                                            John L
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