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Re: [cerebus] Digest Number 815

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  • Jesse Clark
    Chris W, you re probably a nice guy. For some reason, what you wrote pissed me off. Well, I shouldn t say for some reason, since I know exactly why: it was
    Message 1 of 2 , Oct 1, 2002
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      Chris W, you're probably a nice guy. For some reason, what you wrote pissed me
      off. Well, I shouldn't say "for some reason," since I know exactly why: it was
      the tone of scolding. That, coupled with poorly-made arguments, made me think
      "Where does this guy get off?" I responded with the following snotty post.

      I now feel I was a little over-harsh. but like any writer, I hate self-editing.

      Can I eat my cake and have it too? Can I say I don't want to be a jerk to you
      and still post a response in which I am a jerk to you? Well, hell, I can try.
      What follows is a little too testy and a little too mean. Chris, I hope you
      will allow me to stand by the arguments but not the insult.


      > From: Chris W <show_me68508@...>
      > Subject: Cerebus' interpretation of the Scriptures and so on...
      >
      > It should be pointed out for those of you who complain
      > Dave is shoving all these things into Cerebus' mouth
      > (particularly the part about women not having 'seed')
      > that this would be quite a change since, as we have
      > seen in the previous coupla hundred issues, Cerebus
      > Doesn't Get Much Right.

      It should be pointed out to those of you who complain "it should be pointed out
      to those of you who complain" that it should be pointed out to those of you who
      complain.

      Many of them what need this here "pointing out" you propose have pointed out
      the same thing themselves, teach. And a little better than you have, even. To
      wit:


      > Every time he thinks he knows what's what he turns out
      > to be wrong. Astoria was just the Prime Minister's
      > secretary?

      You're saying Cerebus never realized Astoria's importance to him? I think
      you're wrong.

      > The world will end in five days (or
      > whatever) unless Tarim gets everybody's gold.

      Again, wrong. Or, at best, inaccurate. Initially, Cerebus doesn't believe
      this at all. It's Bran who actually believes it. He tries to convince
      Cerebus. It's unclear to what degree he succeeds.

      > He was in the position to have Astoria executed and be
      > assasinated himself by the end of Church and State.

      Uh, yeah, so? Dave was making a point about the excesses of power and now
      Dave's making a point about the Torah.

      > His reaction to a chess game with Po is to drink a
      > bucket of scotch.

      Again, so? You have to relate your examples to your arguments, professor.
      Your argument seems to be that Dave has repeatedly shown Cerebus to be a
      screw-up, so we shouldn't take Cerebus's words as proof of Dave's ideas. This
      is a valid premise which you undermine with weak illustrations. How is the
      above, for example, a screw-up? If I met a near-omnipotent figure who tried to
      convince me that all my major goals were futile, I think I'd go get plastered
      too.

      > The point being that he doesn't have a great track
      > record for knowing what he's talking about in the
      > first place.

      You conclude with a summation of the point you've failed to demonstrate. But
      it doesn't matter: almost everyone else who has written on this has already
      allowed that Dave means Cerebus's words to be satirical to some degree, so
      you're not actually pointing out anything to anyone.

      > Male seed/Female box is a pretty good
      > metaphor despite his ignorance of biology.

      This is where you go bonkers. You've just spent most of the message trying to
      convince us that Dave doesn't intend us to take Cerebus's words at face value,
      and then you defend Cerebus's words at face value.

      This is exactly what Dave calls 'tactics without strategy.' Strategy means
      winning the war, tactics means winning battles. If you win this battle, you
      lose the war, do you get that? If you succesfully defend Cerebus's male
      seed/female box analogy, you corrode your central assertion: that Dave is
      purposefully showing Cerebus to be a yutz. A yutz would make a BAD argument,
      you see, so to call Cerebus's argument GOOD, you are shooting yourself in the
      foot.

      > Wow, there'll only be a few more times for Cerebus
      > readers to start going "This is ridiculous what this
      > guy is saying now..."

      Which seems to be intended derisively, when what you should be doing is looking
      after that foot.


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    • Tony Palermo
      ... Erm...Cerebus didn t learn of Astoria s Importance to him until the end of HIGH SOCIETY. After their first Meeting (actually the Second Meeting...but
      Message 2 of 2 , Oct 1, 2002
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        >From: Jesse Clark <jessewclark@...>
        > > From: Chris W <show_me68508@...>
        > > Every time he thinks he knows what's what he turns out
        > > to be wrong. Astoria was just the Prime Minister's
        > > secretary?
        >
        >You're saying Cerebus never realized Astoria's importance to him? I think
        >you're wrong.

        Erm...Cerebus didn't learn of Astoria's 'Importance' to him until the end of
        HIGH SOCIETY. After their first Meeting (actually the Second Meeting...but
        Cerebus was out cold during WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN ISSUES dah dah dah)
        Cerebus was only interested in the Money she could get him. He had no idea
        all the Other things she had Up her Sleeve(s).

        He thought that he was In Charge...the PM...the Big Kahuna...not Astoria,
        his secretary.


        >
        > > The world will end in five days (or
        > > whatever) unless Tarim gets everybody's gold.
        >
        >Again, wrong. Or, at best, inaccurate. Initially, Cerebus doesn't believe
        >this at all. It's Bran who actually believes it. He tries to convince
        >Cerebus. It's unclear to what degree he succeeds.

        Heh.
        But Stormsend's talk with Cerebus does alert Cerebus to the possibility that
        the world would end If Cerebus said so AND his followers believed his word.


        > > He was in the position to have Astoria executed and be
        > > assasinated himself by the end of Church and State.
        >
        >Uh, yeah, so? Dave was making a point about the excesses of power and now
        >Dave's making a point about the Torah.
        >
        > > His reaction to a chess game with Po is to drink a
        > > bucket of scotch.
        >
        >Again, so? You have to relate your examples to your arguments, professor.
        >Your argument seems to be that Dave has repeatedly shown Cerebus to be a
        >screw-up, so we shouldn't take Cerebus's words as proof of Dave's ideas.
        >This
        >is a valid premise which you undermine with weak illustrations. How is the
        >above, for example, a screw-up? If I met a near-omnipotent figure who
        >tried to
        >convince me that all my major goals were futile, I think I'd go get
        >plastered
        >too.

        Or go live with your former lover and her husband...or loiter in front of
        Dino's...or...

        ;^D
        T



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