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Re: [cerebus] Minds Re-read thoughts

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  • Andrew Hickey
    ... Just another of Dave s Beatles references I think (I Am The Walrus) ... The New Joanneists seem far more Kevilist than Cirinist. But in The Last Day Cirin
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 1, 2005
      On 5/29/05, zims_uncle_most_holy <mouseskull@...> wrote:

      > Page 128. Panel 5. "Or yellow (matter) custard" What's with the
      > (matter) in there?

      Just another of Dave's Beatles references I think (I Am The Walrus)

      > Page 171. The cirinist movement will still be flourishing long
      > after Cerebus is dead, an allusion to Last Day and the new
      > Joanneists?

      The New Joanneists seem far more Kevilist than Cirinist. But in The
      Last Day Cirin is still alive and doing her experiments...


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      http://dumbangel.keenspace.com
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      Returns NEXT WEEK
    • Matt Dow
      Had to go to work, but yeah. That s what I meant. The assumption is that there is ALL manner of Cerebus wackiness in the notebooks. Matt
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 1, 2005
        Had to go to work, but yeah. That's what I meant. The assumption is
        that there is ALL manner of Cerebus wackiness in the notebooks.
        Matt

        On 5/31/05, Jeff Tundis <jctundis@...> wrote:
        >
        > > > Page 153. Is the complete history of Cirin's rise detailed in the
        > > > Albatrosses, or just what was told to Cerebus? Not that I really
        > > > wanna know the whole history, just asking.
        > >
        > > Albatrosses? The page your citing doesn't mention any albatrosses, and
        > > seems to answer your question (what Cerebus is getting is highly
        > > condensed, not detailed). I don't understand this bit.
        > >
        > >
        > > Steve Bolhafner
        >
        > --------- I assume he's referring to Dave's notebooks. Cleverly
        > titled "Albatross 1," "Albatross 2," etc.
        > --------- Excellent observations Steve. I haven't gotten to re-read
        > Minds yet. Thought I'd try reading people's notes first this time, and
        > then re-read. Get the juices flowing before I jump in:)
        >
        > -Jeff
        >
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        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
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      • Larry
        ... You re not thinking earth-centricly enough. The distinction between terrestrial and celestial is a distinction between earth and everything else . The
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 1, 2005
          --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Bolhafner" <sbolhafner@g...>
          wrote:

          > > Page 15, regarding Belinus Two-Tongues,
          > > "...And was banished forever
          > > to the furthest edge of her celestial domain..." If that means the
          > > Moon, what's Earth? How big is this so-called "celestial domain"?
          >
          > Good question. In the next breath she hails the solar system *out
          > past* the moon as belonging to the Lady, but that would seem to
          > contradict what she's just said. If the entire Solar System (not to
          > mention the Universe) belongs to Terim, then either the guy Cerebus
          > met is *not* Belinus Two-Tongues,
          > or Belinus Two-Tongues was not, in
          > fact, "banished forever to the furthest edge of her
          > celestial domain."
          >

          You're not thinking earth-centricly enough. The distinction between
          terrestrial and celestial is a distinction between "earth"
          and "everything else". The edge of the celestial domain is its border
          with the terrestrial. C.S. Lewis's writings certainly talk about the
          devil taking refuge on earth which he occupies [emphasis mine] OUT TO
          THE ORBIT OF THE MOON. Maybe that's the kind of thing Dave was going
          for here. The moon is the furthest edge of the celestial domain--that
          is, anything closer to earth is outside of the "celestial" domain.

          - Larry Hart
        • Steve Bolhafner
          ... Nah, I think he was just showing Cirin to be blinded by her faith to her own contradictions. You make a good argument that the Moon might be considered the
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 1, 2005
            --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <larrytheillini@y...> wrote:
            > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Bolhafner" <sbolhafner@g...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > > > Page 15, regarding Belinus Two-Tongues,
            > > > "...And was banished forever
            > > > to the furthest edge of her celestial domain..." If that means
            > > > the Moon, what's Earth? How big is this so-called "celestial
            > > > domain"?
            > >
            > > Good question. In the next breath she hails the solar system *out
            > > past* the moon as belonging to the Lady, but that would seem to
            > > contradict what she's just said. If the entire Solar System (not
            > > to mention the Universe) belongs to Terim, then either the guy
            > > Cerebus
            > > met is *not* Belinus Two-Tongues,
            > > or Belinus Two-Tongues was not, in
            > > fact, "banished forever to the furthest edge of her
            > > celestial domain."
            > >
            >
            > You're not thinking earth-centricly enough. The distinction
            > between terrestrial and celestial is a distinction between
            > "earth" and "everything else". The edge of the celestial domain
            > is its border with the terrestrial. C.S. Lewis's writings
            > certainly talk about the devil taking refuge on earth which he
            > occupies [emphasis mine] OUT TO
            > THE ORBIT OF THE MOON. Maybe that's the kind of thing Dave was
            > going for here. The moon is the furthest edge of the celestial
            > domain--that is, anything closer to earth is outside of the
            > "celestial" domain.
            >
            > - Larry Hart

            Nah, I think he was just showing Cirin to be blinded by her faith to
            her own contradictions. You make a good argument that the Moon might
            be considered the edge of the celestial domain, but it still wouldn't
            be the FURTHEST edge -- it would be the nearest.

            Ah, but what about "furthest from her?"

            It still defies logic that a female creator would send a lying male
            would-be god to the edge of her domain that puts him closest to her
            followers. Cirin's belief system's defiance of logic would still be
            the point, it seems to me -- and my way makes the point clearer and
            easier. Occam's razor and all that.

            Steve Bolhafner
          • Larry
            ... True, it s the nearest edge to the earth, but it s the furthest (as you say and dismiss) edge of her domain because all else besides the earth *is* the
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 1, 2005
              --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Bolhafner" <sbolhafner@g...>
              wrote:
              > > You're not thinking earth-centricly enough. The distinction
              > > between terrestrial and celestial is a distinction between
              > > "earth" and "everything else". The edge of the celestial domain
              > > is its border with the terrestrial. C.S. Lewis's writings
              > > certainly talk about the devil taking refuge on earth which he
              > > occupies [emphasis mine] OUT TO
              > > THE ORBIT OF THE MOON. Maybe that's the kind of thing Dave was
              > > going for here. The moon is the furthest edge of the celestial
              > > domain--that is, anything closer to earth is outside of the
              > > "celestial" domain.
              > >
              > > - Larry Hart
              >
              > Nah, I think he was just showing Cirin to be blinded by her faith
              > to
              > her own contradictions. You make a good argument that the Moon
              > might
              > be considered the edge of the celestial domain, but it still
              > wouldn't
              > be the FURTHEST edge -- it would be the nearest.
              >
              > Ah, but what about "furthest from her?"
              >
              > It still defies logic that a female creator would send a lying male
              > would-be god to the edge of her domain that puts him closest to her
              > followers.

              True, it's the "nearest" edge to the earth, but it's the "furthest"
              (as you say and dismiss) edge of her domain because all else besides
              the earth *is* the celestial domain. There's no other edge.
              There's her domain and there's "what isn't her domain", which is
              earth out to the orbit of the moon.

              She banished BTT to the moon, not because it was near her followers,
              but because it was (just) outside of her domain, and she couldn't
              stand to have him inside her domain.

              - Larry Hart
            • Andrew Hickey
              ... Of course Lennon himself was referencing an old North-West England schoolkid s rhyme (at least I assume it s a North-West thing - I ve never met anyone
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 3, 2005
                On 5/29/05, Jason Trimmer <trimmer_45701@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Page 128. Panel 5. "Or yellow (matter) custard" What's with the
                > > (matter) in there?
                > >
                > > Matt
                >
                > That's a nod to John Lennon, from 'I Am the Walrus.'
                >
                > yellow matter custard
                > dripping from a dead dog's eye

                Of course Lennon himself was referencing an old North-West England
                schoolkid's rhyme (at least I assume it's a North-West thing - I've
                never met anyone from outside Cheshire/Merseyside/Manchester who'd
                ever heard it):
                Yellow matter custard, green snot pie
                All mixed up with a dead dog's eye
                Slap it on a butty nice and thick
                And drink it down with a cup of cold sick.

                He chose to use that as the jumping-off point for a nonsense lyric
                after receiving a letter from a pupil at his old school, Quarry Bank,
                saying that an English teacher who had once told Lennon he would never
                amount to anything was now having the class study Beatles lyrics,
                finding all kinds of hidden meanings in there that were never
                intended. Lennon decided to put together the biggest load of gibberish
                he could, just to see what his old teacher would make of it.

                --
                http://dumbangel.keenspace.com
                A webcomic about Smile
                Returns NEXT WEEK
              • Jeff Tundis
                ... it s here ... crit posts ... -Jeff Message: 9996 From: Maincbs13@aol.com Received: Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:43 AM Subject: Re: Re: Reads 10-12 In a message dated
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 14, 2005
                  --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Maincbs13@a... wrote:
                  > In a message dated 5/29/2005 11:09:02 PM Central Standard Time,
                  > mouseskull@g... writes:
                  > And when Dave tells Cerebus that he can't ever get with Jaka, it
                  > ends Cerebus's nightmare.
                  >
                  > Until he won't leave the bar and Joanne shows up (making her the New
                  > Nightmare. Get it? Huh, do ya? Do ya get it? See there is this
                  > whole Slasher Film subtext that I bet Dave doesn't even know about,
                  > lets throw a question about it into the next batch!)
                  > Jaka ala Slasher/Jason :: Cerebus ala "the victims sorta?
                  >
                  > Must admit I never thought of the book that way but I've got a huge
                  > Dostoevsky to Sim :: The Possessed to Cerebus theory .....
                  >
                  > Bryan (who also did a Dhalgren -- Iest ::: Delaney --- Sim thing,
                  it's here
                  > somewhere, .... lost in the files, it was amongst my first real lit
                  crit posts
                  > on this group .... back in 01 or something.

                  --------- Found it:)

                  -Jeff

                  Message: 9996 From: Maincbs13@... Received: Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:43
                  AM
                  Subject: Re: Re: Reads 10-12

                  In a message dated 12/4/02 2:17:46 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
                  ctowner1@... writes:

                  Ah...well, asuming you read Cerebus for a brutal, twisted, insane,
                  maybe even evil experience, I can see where you wouldn't be bored. I
                  can get more decent and similar imagery from an Anne Rice novel - so
                  nothing new here. Hence the boredom. Alas, I had higher hopes for
                  the series.

                  e
                  L nny


                  I disagree here, but mainly in a comparitive-lit manner. I hardly
                  see the relation between Dave and Anne Rice. From a plot line point
                  view Cerebus is much more involved with the socio-economic-mystical
                  (SEM ....lol) interaction with the characters and the fictional
                  world Dave has created. He interweaves these plot lines and in this
                  section particularly (READS) he adds new characters seemlessly into
                  the mix. He combines storytelling and art with blocks of text/prose
                  and moves through a parody of the present day comics industry while
                  supporting his void and light theory in a (somewhat grating I must
                  admit) style that is seeming to push boundaries within himself and
                  the preconcieved notions of comics in general. And he still manages
                  to draw and choreograph a great court room, fight and almost science
                  fictional journey into space while his characters meet their
                  creator......at the same time. These issues are packed with action
                  and contemplation, dialogue and story, conflict and resolution. ( ?
                  well as much resolution as we're probably gonna get from Dave
                  anyway.) Anne Rice seems to me to be more of a production line,
                  catering to a group of readers with stock plots and characters that
                  were done better by other writers (Bram Stoker and even Stephen King
                  or Clive Barker, Gaiman and Dean Koontz) who at least pushed
                  themselves to semi-original variety.

                  From a purely text point of view, taking the text by itself is
                  something I've never tried because this is one of the runs that I
                  have in issues. I also think it is an exercise between Dave and the
                  readers, Dave and the story and Dave and his characters; and is
                  therefore meant to be read this way. In doing this and pushing the
                  boundaries ( and tolerance levels of some of his readers ) he is so
                  NOT Anne Rice that I find it hard to make the collation and
                  comparison of this to her "pulp" fiction mentality and lack of depth.
                  I wrote a comparitive-lit piece once on how Dave compared more
                  favorably (IMO) to Samuel Delany's masterpiece tome "Dhalgren" in
                  depth and originality.

                  But Anne Rice? I just don't see it. Rather than catering to a
                  group of readers and feeding the "pack" yet another sequel of
                  vampirism Dave is clearly on a mission of telling his story his way.
                  At the risk of losing a large part of his audience he blazes away.
                  That is something also not "bestseller's list" material and
                  materialism. On an odd and somewhat off topic note. Not only is
                  Anne's son involved in a pulpish pursuit but her husband is an
                  accomplished writer also. His poetry collections are vivid and almost
                  terse, branching into a wide variety of styles and topics, and I'm
                  not a big poetry reader. I wonder what the family discussions at the
                  Rice household meander through. Those conversations would be more
                  interesting to me, taped and transcribed and annotated, than any
                  excitement or entertainment that I might recieve from the latest
                  vampire LeStadt sequel, prequel ect. ect.

                  Bryan
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