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Technology in Cerebus

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  • eric.fennessey@gecm.com
    I thought that I would throw a topic for conversation in so that everyone could, in fine list tradition, ignore it. In the last couple of issues we have seen
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 13, 2000
      I thought that I would throw a topic for conversation in so that everyone
      could, in fine list tradition, ignore it.

      In the last couple of issues we have seen Cerebus react to two pieces of
      technology that he does not appear to have seen before, namely a gun and an
      airship. It seems odd to me that these are a novelty to him. Mary Ernestway
      says that they are taking the airship to Sand Hills Creek, which suggests that
      these devices have been plying the Estarcian sky for a while. Having spend a
      great deal of his time as a mercenary it seems odd that familiarity with guns,
      or at least knowledge of the existence of guns, isn't something Cerebus has.
      The nearest we have come to guns before is the primitive cannons of Cerebus'
      world. Perhaps the implication is that Cerebus has been out of touch for so
      long that these things have developed without him knowing about them.

      Another possibility which strikes me as I write this is that perhaps the Africa
      shaped continent on Cerebus' world is the relatively advanced one and Estarcian
      the backward version, and that these technologies come from there. Perhaps
      Mary's story will halp to clarify these issues.

      Anyone have any other comments on technology in Cerebus' world?

      Regards,
      Eric
    • J and Ellen
      His years as a mercenary were spent (mostly) with other barbarians, who are notorious for being the last ones exposed to new toys. After spending what was
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 13, 2000
        His years as a mercenary were spent (mostly) with other barbarians, who are notorious for being the last ones exposed to new toys. After spending what was apparently many years in outer space, Cerebus holed up in a tavern in the middle of nowhere for a few more years. It's not surprising that SOME things have changed, although I am surprised at just how quickly technology has evolved.
         
        The airship wasn't flying that high, so you probably couldn't see it from very far away.
         
        I'm also wondering if magic has correspondingly waned from the world as technology has developed. We haven't seen any since, I believe, Dave's personal appearance. (I'm not convinced that Rick's stick trick was nothing more than a psych-out.)
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: eric.fennessey@... [mailto:eric.fennessey@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 2:31 AM
        To: cerebus@egroups.com
        Subject: [cerebus] Technology in Cerebus

        I thought that I would throw a topic for conversation in so that everyone
        could, in fine list tradition, ignore it.

        In the last couple of issues we have seen Cerebus react to two pieces of
        technology that he does not appear to have seen before, namely a gun and an
        airship.  It seems odd to me that these are a novelty to him.  Mary Ernestway
        says that they are taking the airship to Sand Hills Creek, which suggests that
        these devices have been plying the Estarcian sky for a while.  Having spend a
        great deal of his time as a mercenary it seems odd that familiarity with guns,
        or at least knowledge of the existence of guns, isn't something Cerebus has.
        The nearest we have come to guns before is the primitive cannons of Cerebus'
        world.  Perhaps the implication is that Cerebus has been out of touch for so
        long that these things have developed without him knowing about them.

        Another possibility which strikes me as I write this is that perhaps the Africa
        shaped continent on Cerebus' world is the relatively advanced one and Estarcian
        the backward version, and that these technologies come from there.  Perhaps
        Mary's story will halp to clarify these issues.

        Anyone have any other comments on technology in Cerebus' world?

        Regards,
        Eric



      • MEOWWCAT@HOTMAIL.COM
        ... I would think this is what happened. Cerebus has been out of the loop for a while traveling (indeedy). What surprises me is that the guys at the bar
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 17, 2000
          --- In cerebus@egroups.com, eric.fennessey@g... wrote:
          > In the last couple of issues we have seen Cerebus react to two
          >pieces of technology that he does not appear to have seen before,
          >namely a gun and an airship. It seems odd to me that these are a
          >novelty to him. Mary Ernestway says that they are taking the
          >airship to Sand Hills Creek, which suggests that these devices have
          >been plying the Estarcian sky for a while. Having spend a great
          >deal of his time as a mercenary it seems odd that familiarity with
          >guns, or at least knowledge of the existence of guns, isn't
          >something Cerebus has.

          >The nearest we have come to guns before is the primitive cannons of
          >Cerebus' world. Perhaps the implication is that Cerebus has been
          >out of touch for so long that these things have developed without
          >him knowing about them.

          I would think this is what happened. Cerebus has been out of the loop
          for a while "traveling" (indeedy). What surprises me is that the guys
          at the bar didn't talk about this new hot item (guns). Knowing
          Cirinists, they prolly put lots of restrictions on gun ownership /
          use. So this might limit how far this new technology has gotten.

          The question that comes to my mind now is -- revolution. Overthrow
          those damn Cirinist with guns! After seeing the early issues of
          Mothers & Daughters, the guys couldn't put much of a fight up against
          them with a sword. Maybe a gun would facilitate this.

          Margaret -- Cerebus Fangirl
          http://geocities.com/meowwcat/cerebus/
        • eric.fennessey@gecm.com
          I have said before that I could forsee a big bang finale to Cerebus. This business with the accelerated technology could well be in keeping with this.
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 19, 2000
            I have said before that I could forsee a 'big bang' finale to Cerebus. This
            business with the accelerated technology could well be in keeping with this.
            Working out from the revolution idea it is entertaining (if unlikely to have
            any relation to what Dave actually does) to try and determine the who, why and
            wherefore of it all.

            The obvious antagonists are the Cirinists. The Cirinists are organised and
            well armed, so their opponents need to be similarly organised and well armed.
            At present there are no obvious contenders for this position. I would posit
            the following two as possibilities: Cerebus at the head of an army or Right
            Religious Rick at the head of a Crusade. Rick's religion could provide the
            motivating force for such a crusade. Cerebus would, at present, seem to have
            little motivation for leading an army against the Cirinists. Whilst the rules
            and regulations of the Mothers irk him, he doesn't seem motivated to sweep them
            in blood from Estarcion. So to get Cerebus in the position where he is ready
            and willing to take such a step seems to me to require the intermediate step of
            provocation. The only provocation that I can see with sufficient resonance to
            Cerebus is the proverbial 'bad thing' happening to Jaka at the instigation of
            the Cirinists.

            So are we going to see a three-way fight between the major powers in Estarcion?
            I don't know, but it is fun to speculate. Remember, Rick says that he and
            Cerebus will meet again only one more time, we still don't know where or when.

            Regards,
            Eric
          • J and Ellen
            If Guys is any indication, the male gender has been thoroughly cowed. Cirin s real challengers right now appear to be the Royalists, i.e. Jaka s supporters.
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 19, 2000
              If "Guys" is any indication, the male gender has been thoroughly cowed. Cirin's real challengers right now appear to be the Royalists, i.e. Jaka's supporters. Of course, that makes Jaka a likely target for assassination, which could awaken the sleeping giant that is Cerebus....
               
              Tangent: considering how quickly the rest of the world has developed its technology, I wonder what the Roach has been working on.
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: eric.fennessey@... [mailto:eric.fennessey@...]
              Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 2:24 AM
              To: cerebus@egroups.com
              Subject: [cerebus] Re: Technology in Cerebus

              I have said before that I could forsee a 'big bang' finale to Cerebus.  This
              business with the accelerated technology could well be in keeping with this.
              Working out from the revolution idea it is entertaining (if unlikely to have
              any relation to what Dave actually does) to try and determine the who, why and
              wherefore of it all.

              The obvious antagonists are the Cirinists.  The Cirinists are organised and
              well armed, so their opponents need to be similarly organised and well armed.
              At present there are no obvious contenders for this position.  I would posit
              the following two as possibilities: Cerebus at the head of an army or Right
              Religious Rick at the head of a Crusade.  Rick's religion could provide the
              motivating force for such a crusade.  Cerebus would, at present, seem to have
              little motivation for leading an army against the Cirinists.  Whilst the rules
              and regulations of the Mothers irk him, he doesn't seem motivated to sweep them
              in blood from Estarcion.  So to get Cerebus in the position where he is ready
              and willing to take such a step seems to me to require the intermediate step of
              provocation.  The only provocation that I can see with sufficient resonance to
              Cerebus is the proverbial 'bad thing' happening to Jaka at the instigation of
              the Cirinists.

              So are we going to see a three-way fight between the major powers in Estarcion?
              I don't know, but it is fun to speculate.  Remember, Rick says that he and
              Cerebus will meet again only one more time, we still don't know where or when.

              Regards,
              Eric



            • elmo499@mindspring.com
              Just thought I s get my two cents in: ON THE TECHNOLOGY: 1. Since the flintlock is the first gun we re seeing, I d say that it is [ossibly the first one
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 4, 2000
                Just thought I's get my two cents in:

                ON THE TECHNOLOGY:
                1. Since the flintlock is the first gun we're seeing, I'd say that
                it is [ossibly the first one invented and therefore not everyone
                would necessarily know about it.
                2. If the Cirinists know about it, they would not be in a rush to
                telly everybosy about it.
                3. Because of the collapse of the economy in Upper Felds, the
                Cirinists may also not be in any position to mass produce nor
                purchase the flintlocks.

                ON WARFARE:
                1. An airborne fleet of soldiers armed with weapons would, even if
                overwhelmingly outnumbered, be in a position to defeat Cirinist
                forces armed primarily with edged weapons, crossbows and pikes.
                2. Such an army might be sparked by either an ornery aardvark or
                religious fervor sparked by or fanned by the Apostle Rick.
                3. I'm really hoping nothing happens to Jaka, but an assassination
                of her would definitely make Cerebus ornery. Another possibility
                would be if the Cirinists have done something to Cerebus's family
                and/or village.

                ELmo
              • Page 45
                Another possibility ... That s where MY money lies. Perhaps the dark clouds ahead on the cover of Book 1 are for Cerebus s relationship with Jaka, but since
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 5, 2000
                  Another possibility
                  > would be if the Cirinists have done something to Cerebus's family
                  > and/or village.
                  >
                  > ELmo

                  That's where MY money lies.

                  Perhaps the dark clouds ahead on the cover of Book 1 are for Cerebus's
                  relationship with Jaka, but since the very issue they set out I've found it
                  curious that noone has thought to "phone ahead". Curious and worrying.

                  Thankfully I'm always wrong.

                  Stephen

                  PS On the other hand I'd find it very surprising indeed if there was any
                  catharsis ahead. I don't expect 'Cerebus' to end with a bang at all. I
                  mean, aren't the last 100 issues supposed to be epilogue?

                  PPS On the other hand I'm always wrong.

                  PPPS And I don't care either way. I'm just lapping the whole thing up.
                  The African scenes had my jaw on the floor. Such weight in the postures,
                  such balance, such strength... And the elephant.... sigh
                • elmo499@mindspring.com
                  ... Cerebus s relationship with Jaka, but since the very issue they set out I ve found it curious that noone has thought to phone ahead . Curious and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 6, 2000
                    --- In cerebus@egroups.com, "Page 45" <page45@p...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Another possibility
                    > > would be if the Cirinists have done something to Cerebus's family
                    > > and/or village.
                    > >
                    > > ELmo
                    >
                    > That's where MY money lies.
                    >
                    > Perhaps the dark clouds ahead on the cover of Book 1 are for
                    Cerebus's relationship with Jaka, but since the very issue they set
                    out I've found it curious that noone has thought to "phone ahead".
                    Curious and worrying.
                    >
                    > Thankfully I'm always wrong.
                    >
                    > Stephen
                    >
                    > PS On the other hand I'd find it very surprising indeed if there
                    was any catharsis ahead. I don't expect 'Cerebus' to end with a bang
                    at all. I mean, aren't the last 100 issues supposed to be epilogue?
                    >
                    > PPS On the other hand I'm always wrong.
                    >
                    > PPPS And I don't care either way. I'm just lapping the whole
                    >thing up. The African scenes had my jaw on the floor. Such weight
                    >in the postures, such balance, such strength... And the
                    >elephant.... sigh.


                    You bring up some interesting points:

                    1a. Although there is a tendency to want to see a big blowout to
                    conclude the series, one does have to leave onself open to the
                    possibility that there may not be a catharsis of that sort. I do
                    recollect reading in a response to a letter that for all intents and
                    purposes, issue 200 was the end of the greater story.

                    1b. That would suck, however. And in my opinion, were that to
                    happen, it would lead the series to not be fondly remembered at all.

                    1c. However, we are only on part two of a three part book, that
                    leaves very little time for development of a huge battle.

                    2. In your comment that there seems to be a dearth of speculation as
                    to where things are going, there seems to be the implication that
                    either A: we are all trusting Sim and Gerhard to lead us well to a
                    great ending to a great series, or B: Cerebus fandom is pretty
                    anemic these days. I think it's the latter. Meowwcat (hi, M!)
                    mentions in her great website that she came across the speculation
                    that Cerebus's numbers had dropped to a readership of about 10,000.
                    I've run across the number 7,500. That's pretty disturbing. I think
                    it does have to do with the pc crowd dropping out, but what do I
                    know? There has been a huge decline in comicbook readership
                    altogether, so you never know where the fault lies exactly.

                    3. I don't think there is much of a possibility that Dave and Ger
                    will drop Cerebus before the finishing line at this point (unless the
                    numbers referenced above drop even more precipitously), but I do hope
                    people are taking Meowwcat's lead (check out her website) and
                    printing up their own flyers or other things to get people interested
                    in the book.

                    Lastly:
                    FOUR MORE YEARS!

                    Elmo (leaving quietly, officer)
                  • J and Ellen
                    Speaking of the Cirinists economic collapse: whatever happened to the hoard that Most Holy gathered? ... From: elmo499@mindspring.com
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 7, 2000
                      Speaking of the Cirinists' economic collapse: whatever happened to the hoard
                      that Most Holy gathered?

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: elmo499@... [mailto:elmo499@...]
                      Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 10:09 AM
                      To: J and Ellen
                      Subject: Re: Technology in Cerebus


                      Just throwing my ytwo cents into this particular arena:
                      1. As the flintlock is the first gun that we're seeing here, it is
                      entirely possible that it is a relatively new device pretty limited
                      in its usage and as such not a whole lot of people know about it.
                      Possibly the Cirinists may know, but I don't see them in any rush to
                      tell anybody about it. Also, with their economy in collapse, they
                      would be hard-put to afford the construction of the waepons, if they
                      did know about it.
                      2. This may be wishful thinking, but with an aerial force armed with
                      such weapons as we've so far seen, it is entirely possible for an
                      army, led by Cerebus, to conquer the groundforces of the Crinists,
                      who would be armed with blades, pikes and bows.
                      3. Such a war might be prompted by something happening to Jaka or
                      religious fervor started or fostered by the Apostle Rick.

                      And on a different note, is anyone other than myself disturbed by the
                      appearance of the "real world" in Cerebus? Bringing the continent of
                      Africa into the picture leads to some frightful problems, such as:
                      if this is happening in a period where Swahili is already developed
                      as a language, that would place it closer to our time frame, which
                      leaves its own cognitively dissonant blips on the screen.

                      Etc., etc.

                      Elmo
                    • eric.fennessey@amsjv.com
                      I wouldn t say that I was particularly disturbed by the appearance of the real world in Cerebus . The Africa in Cerebus is subtly different in shape to
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 7, 2000
                        I wouldn't say that I was particularly 'disturbed' by the 'appearance of the
                        "real world" in Cerebus'. The Africa in Cerebus is subtly different in shape
                        to 'our' Africa, giving it a kind of fairy-tale reality. It is these types of
                        sleights-of-hand that allow me to gloss over the problems of 'reality'.
                        Similarly, the presence of numerous recognisable people in Estarcion doesn't
                        phase me.

                        Regards,
                        Eric
                      • elmo499@mindspring.com
                        ... the hoard that Most Holy gathered? That is a question, isn t it? I suppose it s possible that some or most of it got caught under the mountain s collapse,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 7, 2000
                          --- In cerebus@egroups.com, "J and Ellen" <massage@e...> wrote:
                          > Speaking of the Cirinists' economic collapse: whatever happened to
                          the hoard that Most Holy gathered?

                          That is a question, isn't it? I suppose it's possible that some or
                          most of it got caught under the mountain's collapse, but at least
                          some of it wound up in Cirnist hands (according to Seuntus Po)(sp?)

                          If they DO have the gold, then it becomes an interesting
                          counterbalance to a well-armed aerial force, should Cerebus lead
                          one. The Cirinists would therefore be able to hire a substantial
                          mercenary army and could overtake Cerebus's force by sheer force of
                          numbers.

                          Jeez, I hope not.

                          El Mo
                        • elmo499@mindspring.com
                          ... appearance of the ... different in shape ... these types of ... reality . ... Estarcion doesn t ... I can understand the latter more than the former.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 7, 2000
                            --- In cerebus@egroups.com, eric.fennessey@a... wrote:
                            > I wouldn't say that I was particularly 'disturbed' by the
                            'appearance of the
                            > "real world" in Cerebus'. The Africa in Cerebus is subtly
                            different in shape
                            > to 'our' Africa, giving it a kind of fairy-tale reality. It is
                            these types of
                            > sleights-of-hand that allow me to gloss over the problems of
                            'reality'.
                            > Similarly, the presence of numerous recognisable people in
                            Estarcion doesn't
                            > phase me.
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Eric

                            I can understand the latter more than the former. "Oscar", "F Stop",
                            "Mrs. Thatcher", etc., are all fictionalized versions of "real"
                            people. Africa, however, is Africa.

                            You say the shape of the continent is different. I find THAT
                            interesting. How?

                            Perhaps Dave is meaning to suggest that the africa of Cerebus's epoch
                            is one prior to recorded history, maybe the antediluviian period?
                            That would work.

                            Thanks for pointing that out, Eric.

                            Elmo
                          • eric.fennessey@amsjv.com
                            The Africa south of Estarcion has a differently placed Madegascar and the Sinai Peninsula does not join the continents in the same way as on our earth.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 8, 2000
                              The 'Africa' south of Estarcion has a differently placed 'Madegascar' and the
                              'Sinai Peninsula' does not join the continents in the same way as on our earth.
                              All of which give the mind just enough leeway to suspend disbelief.

                              At another level, a lot of the 'bigger picture' in Cerebus has been about
                              echoes and how one person takes a role at one time and then the opposite role
                              at another time. Perhaps the Geography also fulfils this role.

                              TTFN
                              Eric
                            • Page 45
                              ... Umm, I may be misunderstanding you but I think you misunderstood me. What I meant here wasn t that there was a dearth of speculation on behalf of the
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 8, 2000
                                > >
                                > > Perhaps the dark clouds ahead on the cover of Book 1 are for
                                > Cerebus's relationship with Jaka, but since the very issue they set
                                > out I've found it curious that noone has thought to "phone ahead".
                                > Curious and worrying.
                                > >
                                > > Stephen
                                > >
                                > 2. In your comment that there seems to be a dearth of speculation as
                                > to where things are going, there seems to be the implication that
                                > either A: we are all trusting Sim and Gerhard to lead us well to a
                                > great ending to a great series, or B: Cerebus fandom is pretty
                                > anemic these days.
                                >
                                > Elmo (leaving quietly, officer)

                                Umm, I may be misunderstanding you but I think you misunderstood me.

                                What I meant here wasn't that there was a dearth of speculation on behalf of
                                the readers, but that I found it worrying that Cerebus himself hasn't sent
                                ahead for news of home.

                                In an attempt to allay your fears on the title's health I can report that
                                there remains a steady stream of new blood entering the Cerebus readership -
                                here at least. It's just that the series is so near the conclusion, they
                                prefer to stick to the tpbs. Since that's where Dave and Ger make most of
                                their money - and there are now more of them from which to make that money -
                                it's my sincerest hope that they're still rolling in it.

                                Stephen
                              • Margaret
                                ... This brings up an interesting question -- since Cerebus world isn t ours in the past, but a different world, does that make the judge wrong when he talks
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 8, 2000
                                  --- In cerebus@egroups.com, eric.fennessey@a... wrote:
                                  > The 'Africa' south of Estarcion has a differently
                                  > placed 'Madegascar' and the 'Sinai Peninsula' does not join the
                                  > continents in the same way as on our earth. All of which give the
                                  > mind just enough leeway to suspend disbelief.

                                  This brings up an interesting question -- since Cerebus' world isn't
                                  ours in the past, but a different world, does that make the judge
                                  wrong when he talks about the future in C&S? There was a debate going
                                  on in rec.art.comics.vertigo (?) about this -- if the judge truely
                                  could see the future or not.

                                  > At another level, a lot of the 'bigger picture' in Cerebus has been
                                  > about echoes and how one person takes a role at one time and then
                                  > the opposite role at another time. Perhaps the Geography also
                                  > fulfils this role.
                                  >

                                  opposites, eh? very interesting --
                                  mick = prince in Cerebus world = in our world a rock 'n roll star
                                  missus thatcher = underling for Cirin = prime minister in ours.
                                  weishaupt -- president in Cerebus' world -- leader of underground
                                  society in ours.

                                  Yup, I'd say thats opposites / echoes.

                                  Prehaps that is the same with the technology on the various countries
                                  in Cerebus' world also. Europe in the middle ages was thought to be
                                  more advanced than Africa -- we see in Cerebus' world that Estarcion
                                  is farther behind the Africa analog.

                                  Margaret
                                  www.cerebusfangirl.com
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