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WTF? (Dave Sim content)

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  • Brian
    So as most of you probably know, I ve done a couple mini-comics with Dave Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems & contact a
    Message 1 of 21 , May 1, 2011
      So as most of you probably know, I've done a couple mini-comics with Dave Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems & contact a couple hundred reviewers about a book. In general the response has been overwhelmingly positive, though of course who knows what's going on with anyone that doesn't respond. But today I got this email responding to my form email to reviewers. It seems really silly & stupid to me & it's disconcerting that it comes from a former judge for the Isotope. I know it's pretty unprofessional to share it, but whatever. I thought you starz would find it interesting. I'll probably forget to tell Dave about it in my next letter because I'll have calmed down about it by then.

      hrt
      Brian John Mitchell

      My letter:
      Hello I have been working on mini-comics the size of a pack of matches for a few years & thought you might be interested in checking them out. There are about a dozen new comics from the past year including collaborations with Dave Sim (Cerebus), Kurt Dinse (One Year in Indiana), Nick Marino (Super Haters) & our first foray into color. I have them available as digital downloads (PDFs or CBZs) at www.silbermedia.com/comics/pressdownloads.shtml or if you want physical copies mailed to you, just let me know your current mailing address.

      Response:
      Thank you for letting me know, but I'm afraid that I don't support any project that Dave Sim is associated with.

      Johanna Draper Carlson johanna@...
      Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://comicsworthreading.com
    • ctowner1@gmail.com
      That s a shame. Of course individuals are entitled to their own opinions and biases (as misguided as they might be), and not supporting dave sim is well
      Message 2 of 21 , May 1, 2011
        That's a shame. Of course individuals are entitled to their own
        opinions and biases (as misguided as they might be), and "not
        supporting" dave sim is well within her rights.
        Still, if I was you, I would have suggested to her that you were
        looking for a review, not "support," but informed her that if she felt
        her personal biases rendered her incapable of performing an honest and
        objective review of the material, divorced from those biases towards
        the author, you really wouldn't want her to review the material
        anyway. Thank her for her professionalism and honesty in
        acknowledging her personal and professional limitations, and wish her
        luck in her future endeavers.

        That's what'd I'd do if I were you, anyway. That and continuing to
        make as kick ass a comic as I could, ignoring the small minded
        "reviewers."

        e
        L nny

        On 5/1/11, Brian <QRD@...> wrote:
        > So as most of you probably know, I've done a couple mini-comics with Dave
        > Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems &
        > contact a couple hundred reviewers about a book. In general the response
        > has been overwhelmingly positive, though of course who knows what's going on
        > with anyone that doesn't respond. But today I got this email responding to
        > my form email to reviewers. It seems really silly & stupid to me & it's
        > disconcerting that it comes from a former judge for the Isotope. I know
        > it's pretty unprofessional to share it, but whatever. I thought you starz
        > would find it interesting. I'll probably forget to tell Dave about it in my
        > next letter because I'll have calmed down about it by then.
        >
        > hrt
        > Brian John Mitchell
        >
        > My letter:
        > Hello I have been working on mini-comics the size of a pack of matches for a
        > few years & thought you might be interested in checking them out. There are
        > about a dozen new comics from the past year including collaborations with
        > Dave Sim (Cerebus), Kurt Dinse (One Year in Indiana), Nick Marino (Super
        > Haters) & our first foray into color. I have them available as digital
        > downloads (PDFs or CBZs) at www.silbermedia.com/comics/pressdownloads.shtml
        > or if you want physical copies mailed to you, just let me know your current
        > mailing address.
        >
        > Response:
        > Thank you for letting me know, but I'm afraid that I don't support any
        > project that Dave Sim is associated with.
        >
        > Johanna Draper Carlson johanna@...
        > Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://comicsworthreading.com
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > <A HREF="http://comicsvillage.com/column.aspx?ArticleID=499">The House That
        > Mark Built</A>Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Sent from my mobile device
      • jeff pollard
        A quick search of her blog shows her opinions on Dave Sim pretty clearly. This doesn t change the fact that review and support are not synonymous: Roundup
        Message 3 of 21 , May 1, 2011
          A quick search of her blog shows her opinions on Dave Sim pretty clearly. This doesn't change the fact that review and support are not synonymous:

          Roundup LinkBlogging

          • Posted by Johanna on February 26, 2010 at 4:44 pm
          •  
           Sean Kleefeld follows up by turning it into a list of books he should have read by now but hasn’t. Dave Sim shows up on both lists, and I suspect his work is going to be considered less and less necessary as time goes by and all anyone remembers him for are his sexist comments (“women shouldn’t be allowed to vote”, “men are justified in beating wives who deny them sex”, and so on) instead of his endurance-proving comic series.

          Muckraking LinkBlogging

          • Posted by Johanna on December 19, 2008 at 8:49 pm
          •  
          Taking her comments at face value, as someone who was part of Friends of Lulu during Dave Sim’s original attacks on the group, back in the early 90s, this makes me sad. Sim felt that FOL didn’t support free speech, and now their president is making his then-erroneous assumptions come true.

          SPACE Prize Replaces Day Prize

          • Posted by Johanna on August 29, 2008 at 7:44 am
          The Ohio Small Press and Alternative Comics Expo (SPACE) used to have a Day Prize judged by Dave Sim. Apparently, at the show this year, they collected competitors and then Sim backed out. (That is my less than charitable reading.) So they’ve replaced it with the SPACE Prize, to be awarded at the next show in April 2009.

          --- On Sun, 5/1/11, ctowner1@... <ctowner1@...> wrote:

          From: ctowner1@... <ctowner1@...>
          Subject: Re: [cerebus] WTF? (Dave Sim content)
          To: cerebus@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011, 1:15 PM

           

          That's a shame. Of course individuals are entitled to their own
          opinions and biases (as misguided as they might be), and "not
          supporting" dave sim is well within her rights.
          Still, if I was you, I would have suggested to her that you were
          looking for a review, not "support," but informed her that if she felt
          her personal biases rendered her incapable of performing an honest and
          objective review of the material, divorced from those biases towards
          the author, you really wouldn't want her to review the material
          anyway. Thank her for her professionalism and honesty in
          acknowledging her personal and professional limitations, and wish her
          luck in her future endeavers.

          That's what'd I'd do if I were you, anyway. That and continuing to
          make as kick ass a comic as I could, ignoring the small minded
          "reviewers."

          e
          L nny

          On 5/1/11, Brian <QRD@...> wrote:
          > So as most of you probably know, I've done a couple mini-comics with Dave
          > Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems &
          > contact a couple hundred reviewers about a book. In general the response
          > has been overwhelmingly positive, though of course who knows what's going on
          > with anyone that doesn't respond. But today I got this email responding to
          > my form email to reviewers. It seems really silly & stupid to me & it's
          > disconcerting that it comes from a former judge for the Isotope. I know
          > it's pretty unprofessional to share it, but whatever. I thought you starz
          > would find it interesting. I'll probably forget to tell Dave about it in my
          > next letter because I'll have calmed down about it by then.
          >
          > hrt
          > Brian John Mitchell
          >
          > My letter:
          > Hello I have been working on mini-comics the size of a pack of matches for a
          > few years & thought you might be interested in checking them out. There are
          > about a dozen new comics from the past year including collaborations with
          > Dave Sim (Cerebus), Kurt Dinse (One Year in Indiana), Nick Marino (Super
          > Haters) & our first foray into color. I have them available as digital
          > downloads (PDFs or CBZs) at www.silbermedia.com/comics/pressdownloads.shtml
          > or if you want physical copies mailed to you, just let me know your current
          > mailing address.
          >
          > Response:
          > Thank you for letting me know, but I'm afraid that I don't support any
          > project that Dave Sim is associated with.
          >
          > Johanna Draper Carlson johanna@...
          > Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://comicsworthreading.com
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > <A HREF="http://comicsvillage.com/column.aspx?ArticleID=499">The House That
          > Mark Built</A>Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Sent from my mobile device

        • rainmandu2
          ... She called all of your mini-comics a project. Are they a single project, or is each one its own project? Because, if she s calling everything you ve a done
          Message 4 of 21 , May 1, 2011
            --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <QRD@...> wrote:
            >
            > So as most of you probably know, I've done a couple mini-comics with Dave Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems & contact a couple hundred reviewers about a book. In general the response has been overwhelmingly positive, though of course who knows what's going on with anyone that doesn't respond. But today I got this email responding to my form email to reviewers. It seems really silly & stupid to me & it's disconcerting that it comes from a former judge for the Isotope. I know it's pretty unprofessional to share it, but whatever. I thought you starz would find it interesting. I'll probably forget to tell Dave about it in my next letter because I'll have calmed down about it by then.
            >
            > hrt
            > Brian John Mitchell
            >
            > My letter:
            > Hello I have been working on mini-comics the size of a pack of matches for a few years & thought you might be interested in checking them out. There are about a dozen new comics from the past year including collaborations with Dave Sim (Cerebus), Kurt Dinse (One Year in Indiana), Nick Marino (Super Haters) & our first foray into color. I have them available as digital downloads (PDFs or CBZs) at www.silbermedia.com/comics/pressdownloads.shtml or if you want physical copies mailed to you, just let me know your current mailing address.
            >
            > Response:
            > Thank you for letting me know, but I'm afraid that I don't support any project that Dave Sim is associated with.
            >
            > Johanna Draper Carlson johanna@...
            > Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://comicsworthreading.com

            She called all of your mini-comics a project. Are they a single project, or is each one its own project? Because, if she's calling everything you've a done a single project in which Dave was involved, then she would also have to consider everything that Alan Moore has done a single project in which Dave was involved, because Alan Moore once collaborated with Dave as well. Does she refuse to "support" Alan Moore?

            Rainmandu

            "Visions of the Night" - The Police
          • ctowner1@gmail.com
            Good point! I think Brian should seek clarification. Also, didn t Dave work on the Spiderman 100 project? I hope she s banning all contact with Dave s other
            Message 5 of 21 , May 1, 2011
              Good point! I think Brian should seek clarification. Also, didn't
              Dave work on the Spiderman 100 project? I hope she's banning all
              contact with Dave's other 99 collaborators. Don't want to be
              supporting any of those simlovers!

              e
              L nny

              On 5/1/11, rainmandu2 <rainmandu@...> wrote:
              > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <QRD@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> So as most of you probably know, I've done a couple mini-comics with Dave
              >> Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems &
              >> contact a couple hundred reviewers about a book. In general the response
              >> has been overwhelmingly positive, though of course who knows what's going
              >> on with anyone that doesn't respond. But today I got this email
              >> responding to my form email to reviewers. It seems really silly & stupid
              >> to me & it's disconcerting that it comes from a former judge for the
              >> Isotope. I know it's pretty unprofessional to share it, but whatever. I
              >> thought you starz would find it interesting. I'll probably forget to tell
              >> Dave about it in my next letter because I'll have calmed down about it by
              >> then.
              >>
              >> hrt
              >> Brian John Mitchell
              >>
              >> My letter:
              >> Hello I have been working on mini-comics the size of a pack of matches for
              >> a few years & thought you might be interested in checking them out. There
              >> are about a dozen new comics from the past year including collaborations
              >> with Dave Sim (Cerebus), Kurt Dinse (One Year in Indiana), Nick Marino
              >> (Super Haters) & our first foray into color. I have them available as
              >> digital downloads (PDFs or CBZs) at
              >> www.silbermedia.com/comics/pressdownloads.shtml or if you want physical
              >> copies mailed to you, just let me know your current mailing address.
              >>
              >> Response:
              >> Thank you for letting me know, but I'm afraid that I don't support any
              >> project that Dave Sim is associated with.
              >>
              >> Johanna Draper Carlson johanna@...
              >> Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://comicsworthreading.com
              >
              > She called all of your mini-comics a project. Are they a single project, or
              > is each one its own project? Because, if she's calling everything you've a
              > done a single project in which Dave was involved, then she would also have
              > to consider everything that Alan Moore has done a single project in which
              > Dave was involved, because Alan Moore once collaborated with Dave as well.
              > Does she refuse to "support" Alan Moore?
              >
              > Rainmandu
              >
              > "Visions of the Night" - The Police
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > <A HREF="http://comicsvillage.com/column.aspx?ArticleID=499">The House That
              > Mark Built</A>Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Sent from my mobile device
            • ultraists2
              I ve certainly noticed a negative biased response towards Dave from the San Francisco area (assuming that s where Johanna is from... at the very least, that s
              Message 6 of 21 , May 1, 2011
                I've certainly noticed a negative biased response towards Dave from the San Francisco area (assuming that's where Johanna is from... at the very least, that's where Isotope is located... curious if Isotope supports Dave & Cerebus... side issue).




                --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <QRD@...> wrote:
                >
                > So as most of you probably know, I've done a couple mini-comics with Dave Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems & contact a couple hundred reviewers about a book. In general the response has been overwhelmingly positive, though of course who knows what's going on with anyone that doesn't respond. But today I got this email responding to my form email to reviewers. It seems really silly & stupid to me & it's disconcerting that it comes from a former judge for the Isotope. I know it's pretty unprofessional to share it, but whatever. I thought you starz would find it interesting. I'll probably forget to tell Dave about it in my next letter because I'll have calmed down about it by then.
                >
                > hrt
                > Brian John Mitchell
                >
                > My letter:
                > Hello I have been working on mini-comics the size of a pack of matches for a few years & thought you might be interested in checking them out. There are about a dozen new comics from the past year including collaborations with Dave Sim (Cerebus), Kurt Dinse (One Year in Indiana), Nick Marino (Super Haters) & our first foray into color. I have them available as digital downloads (PDFs or CBZs) at www.silbermedia.com/comics/pressdownloads.shtml or if you want physical copies mailed to you, just let me know your current mailing address.
                >
                > Response:
                > Thank you for letting me know, but I'm afraid that I don't support any project that Dave Sim is associated with.
                >
                > Johanna Draper Carlson johanna@...
                > Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://comicsworthreading.com
                >
              • Rick Sharer
                  BTW, Ms. Johanna Draper is one of the feminists who attacked Margaret over CEREBUS way back in the RACM Usenet days.  I always seemed to have lengthy
                Message 7 of 21 , May 1, 2011
                   
                  BTW, Ms. Johanna Draper is one of the feminists who attacked Margaret over CEREBUS way back in the RACM Usenet days.  I always seemed to have lengthy flamewars with her (and her friends)...
                   
                  A liitle bit after that, I met her friends in Chicago at a Comic Convention, and when they pointed me out to her, she acted like I was going to rape her or something.  She wouldn't say "hi" or come over and "meet the enemy" like the rest of her cohorts did (one even kissed me on the lips, just to say that she had tamed the Terrible Talon)...I guess some of them believe their own fictional smears.  
                  TTM

                  --- On Sun, 5/1/11, ctowner1@... <ctowner1@...> wrote:

                  From: ctowner1@... <ctowner1@...>
                  Subject: Re: [cerebus] WTF? (Dave Sim content)
                  To: cerebus@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011, 1:15 PM

                   
                  That's a shame. Of course individuals are entitled to their own
                  opinions and biases (as misguided as they might be), and "not
                  supporting" dave sim is well within her rights.
                  Still, if I was you, I would have suggested to her that you were
                  looking for a review, not "support," but informed her that if she felt
                  her personal biases rendered her incapable of performing an honest and
                  objective review of the material, divorced from those biases towards
                  the author, you really wouldn't want her to review the material
                  anyway. Thank her for her professionalism and honesty in
                  acknowledging her personal and professional limitations, and wish her
                  luck in her future endeavers.

                  That's what'd I'd do if I were you, anyway. That and continuing to
                  make as kick ass a comic as I could, ignoring the small minded
                  "reviewers."

                  e
                  L nny

                  On 5/1/11, Brian <QRD@...> wrote:
                  > So as most of you probably know, I've done a couple mini-comics with Dave
                  > Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems &
                  > contact a couple hundred reviewers about a book. In general the response
                  > has been overwhelmingly positive, though of course who knows what's going on
                  > with anyone that doesn't respond. But today I got this email responding to
                  > my form email to reviewers. It seems really silly & stupid to me & it's
                  > disconcerting that it comes from a former judge for the Isotope. I know
                  > it's pretty unprofessional to share it, but whatever. I thought you starz
                  > would find it interesting. I'll probably forget to tell Dave about it in my
                  > next letter because I'll have calmed down about it by then.
                  >
                  > hrt
                  > Brian John Mitchell
                  >
                  > My letter:
                  > Hello I have been working on mini-comics the size of a pack of matches for a
                  > few years & thought you might be interested in checking them out. There are
                  > about a dozen new comics from the past year including collaborations with
                  > Dave Sim (Cerebus), Kurt Dinse (One Year in Indiana), Nick Marino (Super
                  > Haters) & our first foray into color. I have them available as digital
                  > downloads (PDFs or CBZs) at www.silbermedia.com/comics/pressdownloads.shtml
                  > or if you want physical copies mailed to you, just let me know your current
                  > mailing address.
                  >
                  > Response:
                  > Thank you for letting me know, but I'm afraid that I don't support any
                  > project that Dave Sim is associated with.
                  >
                  > Johanna Draper Carlson johanna@...
                  > Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://comicsworthreading.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > <A HREF="http://comicsvillage.com/column.aspx?ArticleID=499">The House That
                  > Mark Built</A>Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Sent from my mobile device
                • Barry Deutsch
                  You re so right! Obviously she did think you were going to rape her. Such a good thing you/re not one of those people who makes mean judgements about other
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 1, 2011
                    You're so right! Obviously she did think you were going to rape her. Such a good thing you/re not one of those people who makes mean judgements about other people based on minimal information.

                    On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Rick Sharer <rlsharer@...> wrote:
                     

                     
                    BTW, Ms. Johanna Draper is one of the feminists who attacked Margaret over CEREBUS way back in the RACM Usenet days.  I always seemed to have lengthy flamewars with her (and her friends)...
                     
                    A liitle bit after that, I met her friends in Chicago at a Comic Convention, and when they pointed me out to her, she acted like I was going to rape her or something.  She wouldn't say "hi" or come over and "meet the enemy" like the rest of her cohorts did (one even kissed me on the lips, just to say that she had tamed the Terrible Talon)...I guess some of them believe their own fictional smears.  
                    TTM

                    --- On Sun, 5/1/11, ctowner1@... <ctowner1@...> wrote:

                    From: ctowner1@... <ctowner1@...>
                    Subject: Re: [cerebus] WTF? (Dave Sim content)
                    To: cerebus@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011, 1:15 PM

                     
                    That's a shame. Of course individuals are entitled to their own
                    opinions and biases (as misguided as they might be), and "not
                    supporting" dave sim is well within her rights.
                    Still, if I was you, I would have suggested to her that you were
                    looking for a review, not "support," but informed her that if she felt
                    her personal biases rendered her incapable of performing an honest and
                    objective review of the material, divorced from those biases towards
                    the author, you really wouldn't want her to review the material
                    anyway. Thank her for her professionalism and honesty in
                    acknowledging her personal and professional limitations, and wish her
                    luck in her future endeavers.

                    That's what'd I'd do if I were you, anyway. That and continuing to
                    make as kick ass a comic as I could, ignoring the small minded
                    "reviewers."

                    e
                    L nny

                    On 5/1/11, Brian <QRD@...> wrote:
                    > So as most of you probably know, I've done a couple mini-comics with Dave
                    > Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems &
                    > contact a couple hundred reviewers about a book. In general the response
                    > has been overwhelmingly positive, though of course who knows what's going on
                    > with anyone that doesn't respond. But today I got this email responding to
                    > my form email to reviewers. It seems really silly & stupid to me & it's
                    > disconcerting that it comes from a former judge for the Isotope. I know
                    > it's pretty unprofessional to share it, but whatever. I thought you starz
                    > would find it interesting. I'll probably forget to tell Dave about it in my
                    > next letter because I'll have calmed down about it by then.
                    >
                    > hrt
                    > Brian John Mitchell
                    >
                    > My letter:
                    > Hello I have been working on mini-comics the size of a pack of matches for a
                    > few years & thought you might be interested in checking them out. There are
                    > about a dozen new comics from the past year including collaborations with
                    > Dave Sim (Cerebus), Kurt Dinse (One Year in Indiana), Nick Marino (Super
                    > Haters) & our first foray into color. I have them available as digital
                    > downloads (PDFs or CBZs) at www.silbermedia.com/comics/pressdownloads.shtml
                    > or if you want physical copies mailed to you, just let me know your current
                    > mailing address.
                    >
                    > Response:
                    > Thank you for letting me know, but I'm afraid that I don't support any
                    > project that Dave Sim is associated with.
                    >
                    > Johanna Draper Carlson johanna@...
                    > Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://comicsworthreading.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > <A HREF="http://comicsvillage.com/column.aspx?ArticleID=499">The House That
                    > Mark Built</A>Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Sent from my mobile device


                  • sonnymunn
                    Brian Thanks for posting your correspondence with Ms. Draper. I m afraid I assign as much credibility to folks who end sentences with prepositions as I do to
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 1, 2011
                      Brian

                      Thanks for posting your correspondence with Ms. Draper.

                      I'm afraid I assign as much credibility to folks who end sentences with prepositions as I do to people who don't support projects without first looking at said projects, which is approximately none.

                      The correct sentence structure, by the way, would be "I don't support any project with which Dave Sim is associated." Might I suggest in the future you refrain from supporting any project with which Johanna Draper Carlson, whoever she is, is associated?

                      Loved Poit! (both versions) though I think I prefer the more abstract of the pair, which I read first, thankfully. I found the second one a bit too literal and therefore without as much impact as the first.


                      Regards,
                      Eric



                      --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <QRD@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > So as most of you probably know, I've done a couple mini-comics with Dave Sim. I do a lot more promo than the average mini-comic guy it seems & contact a couple hundred reviewers about a book. In general the response has been overwhelmingly positive, though of course who knows what's going on with anyone that doesn't respond. But today I got this email responding to my form email to reviewers. It seems really silly & stupid to me & it's disconcerting that it comes from a former judge for the Isotope. I know it's pretty unprofessional to share it, but whatever. I thought you starz would find it interesting. I'll probably forget to tell Dave about it in my next letter because I'll have calmed down about it by then.
                      >
                      > hrt
                      > Brian John Mitchell
                      >
                      > My letter:
                      > Hello I have been working on mini-comics the size of a pack of matches for a few years & thought you might be interested in checking them out. There are about a dozen new comics from the past year including collaborations with Dave Sim (Cerebus), Kurt Dinse (One Year in Indiana), Nick Marino (Super Haters) & our first foray into color. I have them available as digital downloads (PDFs or CBZs) at www.silbermedia.com/comics/pressdownloads.shtml or if you want physical copies mailed to you, just let me know your current mailing address.
                      >
                      > Response:
                      > Thank you for letting me know, but I'm afraid that I don't support any project that Dave Sim is associated with.
                      >
                      > Johanna Draper Carlson johanna@...
                      > Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://comicsworthreading.com
                      >
                    • Rick Sharer
                      ... Most always. :) ... I don t know what she was *thinking*, but I can tell you how she acted, and she looked terrified. A friend of hers, Mikey Chary,
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 1, 2011
                        --- On Sun, 5/1/11, Barry Deutsch <barry.deutsch@...> wrote:

                        >You're so right!

                        Most always. :)

                        > Obviously she did think you were going to rape her.

                        I don't know what she was *thinking*, but I can tell you how she acted, and she looked terrified. A friend of hers, Mikey Chary, pointed me out to her while we were all in a conference room prior to a panel starting, and she jerked away from him with body language that screamed, "shutup, don't let him see me, I'm scared (and I hate him)", and he tried once to point out that I was harmless and she pulled away again and turned her back on him. At the time it was pretty humorous.

                        Most of our online discussions had been debating her baseless and false assertions that Sim had grossly mistreated three women who had worked with or for him....so it wasn't a stretch to think that something like that fantasy was skewing her worldview of Reality in this case as well.

                        >Such a good thing you/re not one of those people who makes mean
                        >judgements about other people based on minimal information.

                        I never said I blamed her...she did appear actually terrified...but as her friends tried to tell her, I was just a big pussycat, and my Reality Bite was not nearly as terrible as my Online Bark.

                        I originally ran into her and her friends at a bar in the hotel, one where Terry Moore was sitting with a table of fans...I spotted Michael Chary and Elayne, two of her online cohorts, sitting at a table...so I called a waitress over and had her bring them a pitcher of beer with a note stating, "Enjoy! Sent to you from Talon the Merciless"...I'm such a monster that way!

                        They got quite a kick from it, the waitress pointed me out, and then a few came over and introduced themselves, and we drank for a while until one finally got the nerve to kiss me. I think pictures were taken of it. Then several do-gooders lectured me to be more civil online, and I returned the favor by pointing out how wrong they continued to be about Dave Sim.

                        A little while later I spotted one of Moore's fans dancing with Ms. Draper, who still had no idea I was attending the convention, and I *almost* went over and asked her to dance, without telling her who I was, but even *I* thought that was a little stalker-ish, so even in my inebriated state I let that idea slide. :)

                        It was the next day at the Panel where others pointed me out to her and she went from happy-go-lucky to instant deer-in-the-headlights.

                        There's really nothing "mean" about having two eyes.

                        TTM
                      • Rick Sharer
                        ... This attitude of Draper s was a prevalent attitude among *many* in the Comics Industry during the post-186 timeframe that Sim correctly picked up on...no
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 1, 2011
                          --- On Sun, 5/1/11, ultraists2 <ultraists@...> wrote:

                          >I've certainly noticed a negative biased response towards Dave from the
                          >San Francisco area (assuming that's where Johanna is from... at the very
                          >least, that's where Isotope is located... curious if Isotope supports
                          >Dave & Cerebus... side issue).

                          This attitude of Draper's was a prevalent attitude among *many* in the Comics Industry during the post-186 timeframe that Sim correctly picked up on...no matter how many people today try to convince us that it never happened....

                          TTM
                        • effingmagnifier
                          ... Jeff
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 1, 2011
                            -----Not only that, Rick, but many of those comics industry insiders specifically referred to #186 (or, later, "Tangent") as the reason that they "felt" that way about Sim. Made, ah say, *made* no bones about it, that is.

                            Jeff

                            --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Rick Sharer <rlsharer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > --- On Sun, 5/1/11, ultraists2 <ultraists@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >I've certainly noticed a negative biased response towards Dave from the
                            > >San Francisco area (assuming that's where Johanna is from... at the very
                            > >least, that's where Isotope is located... curious if Isotope supports
                            > >Dave & Cerebus... side issue).
                            >
                            > This attitude of Draper's was a prevalent attitude among *many* in the Comics Industry during the post-186 timeframe that Sim correctly picked up on...no matter how many people today try to convince us that it never happened....
                            >
                            > TTM
                            >
                          • Barry Deutsch
                            Do people really deny disliking Dave because they find his opinions odious? In my experience it s a very common thing, in discussions of Sim, to hear people
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 2, 2011
                              Do people really deny disliking Dave because they find his opinions odious? In my experience it's a very common thing, in discussions of Sim, to hear people state it openly.

                              I also hear a lot of "his politics are awful, but he's a great cartoonist" statements.

                              Barry

                              On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Rick Sharer <rlsharer@...> wrote:
                               


                              --- On Sun, 5/1/11, ultraists2 <ultraists@...> wrote:

                              >I've certainly noticed a negative biased response towards Dave from the
                              >San Francisco area (assuming that's where Johanna is from... at the very
                              >least, that's where Isotope is located... curious if Isotope supports
                              >Dave & Cerebus... side issue).

                              This attitude of Draper's was a prevalent attitude among *many* in the Comics Industry during the post-186 timeframe that Sim correctly picked up on...no matter how many people today try to convince us that it never happened....

                              TTM


                            • effingmagnifier
                              Or worse: I have to admit it, though, even though he s Crazy Evil Misogynist Dave Sim, he s a hell of a letterer. ;P Jeff
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 2, 2011
                                Or worse: "I have to admit it, though, even though he's Crazy Evil Misogynist Dave Sim, he's a hell of a letterer."

                                ;P

                                Jeff

                                --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Barry Deutsch <barry.deutsch@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Do people really deny disliking Dave because they find his opinions odious?
                                > In my experience it's a very common thing, in discussions of Sim, to hear
                                > people state it openly.
                                >
                                > I also hear a lot of "his politics are awful, but he's a great cartoonist"
                                > statements.
                                >
                                > Barry
                                >
                                > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Rick Sharer <rlsharer@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- On Sun, 5/1/11, ultraists2 <ultraists@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > >I've certainly noticed a negative biased response towards Dave from the
                                > > >San Francisco area (assuming that's where Johanna is from... at the very
                                > > >least, that's where Isotope is located... curious if Isotope supports
                                > > >Dave & Cerebus... side issue).
                                > >
                                > > This attitude of Draper's was a prevalent attitude among *many* in the
                                > > Comics Industry during the post-186 timeframe that Sim correctly picked up
                                > > on...no matter how many people today try to convince us that it never
                                > > happened....
                                > >
                                > > TTM
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Brian
                                Thanks everybody for all your support over this, I m a bit calmed down about it now a day later. As I said it was strange because I never have gotten that
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 2, 2011
                                  Thanks everybody for all your support over this, I'm a bit calmed down about it now a day later. As I said it was strange because I never have gotten that kind of response before from anyone. I assume from her response that she's considering all my work to be "tainted" by Sim since the email said there were a dozen new comics. I guess I'm forced to assume it means she doesn't read Mike Allred or Will Eisner either for the same reason & though I'm not sure what review on her site led me to contact her, as I went through the site yesterday I did notice it was really manga heavy. I deleted her email from my contact list & posted a note so I shouldn't add her again.

                                  I have to wonder if a similar thing would happen if someone wrote her an email about a collaboration with Alan Moore or Frank Miller as I personally think there is as much evidence for "misogyny" in their work as Sim.

                                  I think it was Eric that said he liked Poit, so thanks!

                                  hrt
                                  Brian John Mitchell

                                  --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "rainmandu2" <rainmandu@...> wrote:
                                  > She called all of your mini-comics a project. Are they a single project, or is each one its own project? Because, if she's calling everything you've a done a single project in which Dave was involved, then she would also have to consider everything that Alan Moore has done a single project in which Dave was involved, because Alan Moore once collaborated with Dave as well. Does she refuse to "support" Alan Moore?
                                  >
                                  > Rainmandu
                                  >
                                  > "Visions of the Night" - The Police
                                  >
                                • rainmandu2
                                  ... There s a difference between in their work and in what they ve written as themselves, expressing their own views. Writers are often called misogynist
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 2, 2011
                                    --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <QRD@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thanks everybody for all your support over this, I'm a bit calmed down about it now a day later. As I said it was strange because I never have gotten that kind of response before from anyone. I assume from her response that she's considering all my work to be "tainted" by Sim since the email said there were a dozen new comics. I guess I'm forced to assume it means she doesn't read Mike Allred or Will Eisner either for the same reason & though I'm not sure what review on her site led me to contact her, as I went through the site yesterday I did notice it was really manga heavy. I deleted her email from my contact list & posted a note so I shouldn't add her again.
                                    >
                                    > I have to wonder if a similar thing would happen if someone wrote her an email about a collaboration with Alan Moore or Frank Miller as I personally think there is as much evidence for "misogyny" in their work as Sim.
                                    >
                                    > I think it was Eric that said he liked Poit, so thanks!
                                    >
                                    > hrt
                                    > Brian John Mitchell

                                    There's a difference between "in their work" and "in what they've written as themselves, expressing their own views." Writers are often called "misogynist" for characters and/or stories they create, but, just because their text doesn't condemn the behavior of their characters (because the misogynist character is narrating the story, for example, or because the writer trusts the reader to make up their own mind about the characters) doesn't mean the writer is a misogynist. Some people just can't handle a story that doesn't hold their hand and condemn all of the bad behavior of the characters and punish those characters for it in the end. Were the creators of the awful "Basic Instinct" homophobic because their movie featured a negative portrayal of a lesbian woman? I would say "yes" - if every other character in that movie weren't also a negative portrayal. It was a crime story in which everyone was unpleasant, unlikeable, and had a dark, ugly side. What were they supposed to do? Make everyone unlikeable except for the lesbian? So, I don't know about Alan Moore and Frank Miller. I'm certainly not going to call them "misogynist" based solely on their work (especially since Miller works in a genre where everyone is a two-dimensional caricature). Remember, much of what Dave has written about women was written by Dave writing as Dave, in essays, etc. It's Dave own fault that he has so much baggage (he won't be asked to write an episode of "Glee" anytime soon), but he is still one of the best writers/artists/storytellers the comics industry has ever known, and his sexist/homophobic opinions (as odious as they are) don't change that. If someone doesn't want to work with Dave because of those opinions, that's certainly their right. But to dismiss someone's entire body of work because one of their projects was a collaboration with Dave is just ridiculous. He's one of the greatest writers/artists/storytellers the medium has ever known. Few writers have said anything about gay bashing as offensive as what Dave has said...

                                    "The guy said that if he had 'come out' on a Monday, he wouldn't have made it to the following Sunday game-day. That is, his own team would've taken care of him. Now, to your team, that sounds brutal and Paleolithic and uncivilized and all the rest of it. To my team, it's a natural policing action."

                                    ...but he's still one of the greatest writers/artists/storytellers, and other writers/artists/storytellers could still learn a thing or two from him. And, yeah, I would collaborate with him. On an episode of "Glee."

                                    (If anyone cares, my episode of "Glee" would feature Britney (not Spears) singing "Under My Thumb" to Santana, Finn singing Adam Ant's "Strip" to Rachel, and everyone singing a mash-up of Rainbow's "Rock 'n' Roll Fantasy" and Lady Gaga's "Paparazzi.")

                                    Rainmandu

                                    "Stop Your Sobbing" - The Pretenders
                                  • effingmagnifier
                                    ... Jeff (whose own Glee episode would be all Jimmy Buffett, all the time.) Damn it! I went and did it right after I said let us not do it. Damn you, Rain!
                                    Message 17 of 21 , May 2, 2011
                                      --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "rainmandu2" <rainmandu@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > (If anyone cares, my episode of "Glee" would feature Britney (not Spears) singing "Under My Thumb" to Santana, Finn singing Adam Ant's "Strip" to Rachel, and everyone singing a mash-up of Rainbow's "Rock 'n' Roll Fantasy" and Lady Gaga's "Paparazzi.")
                                      >
                                      > Rainmandu

                                      -----Please, for the love of all that is holy, let us not now start a thread of what we would write into (or leave out of) our respective own favorite "Glee" episodes.

                                      Jeff (whose own "Glee" episode would be all Jimmy Buffett, all the time.)

                                      Damn it! I went and did it right after I said let us not do it. Damn you, Rain!

                                      Damn you!
                                    • rainmandu2
                                      ... Welcome to the Dark Side. Here, on the Dark Side, we think that Rainbow did Rock n Roll Fantasy, even though it was actually Bad Company. Also, I think
                                      Message 18 of 21 , May 3, 2011
                                        --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "effingmagnifier" <seilerjeff@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "rainmandu2" <rainmandu@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > (If anyone cares, my episode of "Glee" would feature Britney (not Spears) singing "Under My Thumb" to Santana, Finn singing Adam Ant's "Strip" to Rachel, and everyone singing a mash-up of Rainbow's "Rock 'n' Roll Fantasy" and Lady Gaga's "Paparazzi.")
                                        > >
                                        > > Rainmandu
                                        >
                                        > -----Please, for the love of all that is holy, let us not now start a thread of what we would write into (or leave out of) our respective own favorite "Glee" episodes.
                                        >
                                        > Jeff (whose own "Glee" episode would be all Jimmy Buffett, all the time.)
                                        >
                                        > Damn it! I went and did it right after I said let us not do it. Damn you, Rain!
                                        >
                                        > Damn you!

                                        Welcome to the Dark Side. Here, on the Dark Side, we think that Rainbow did "Rock 'n' Roll Fantasy," even though it was actually Bad Company. Also, I think an all-Duran Duran episode needs to happen. I see Sue Sylvester making her way through the jungle like Simon LeBon in the "Hungry Like the Wolf" video. Also, Kurt doing "Girls On Film" with a bunch of trannies. Precious (or whatever the black girl is called) can do something too. Is it wrong that I call her Precious? Have I learned nothing from "Glee" about being a better person and not throwing verbal Slushies in people's faces? Or is just that I'm still having a hard time believing that the guy who did "Nip/Tuck" is now the guy doing "Glee." Is he being sincere? I have no idea.

                                        I'm not holding my breath for a Dead Kennedys episode. Come on, "Glee" producers, they should totally break out "Kill the Poor" at Nationals.

                                        Rainmandu

                                        "When Doves Cry" - Prince
                                      • Dominick Grace
                                        ... Well, they did Britney Spears and Justin fucking Bieber, so I guess there is no depth to which they will not sink. Downtown Train - Tom Waits (speaking
                                        Message 19 of 21 , May 3, 2011

                                          > Welcome to the Dark Side. Here, on the Dark Side, we think that
                                          > Rainbow did "Rock 'n' Roll Fantasy," even though it was actually
                                          > Bad Company. Also, I think an all-Duran Duran episode needs to
                                          > happen. I see Sue Sylvester making her way through the jungle
                                          > like Simon LeBon in the "Hungry Like the Wolf" video. Also, Kurt
                                          > doing "Girls On Film" with a bunch of trannies. Precious (or
                                          > whatever the black girl is called) can do something too. Is it
                                          > wrong that I call her Precious? Have I learned nothing from
                                          > "Glee" about being a better person and not throwing verbal
                                          > Slushies in people's faces? Or is just that I'm still having a
                                          > hard time believing that the guy who did "Nip/Tuck" is now the
                                          > guy doing "Glee." Is he being sincere? I have no idea.
                                           
                                          Well, they did Britney Spears and Justin fucking Bieber, so I guess there is no depth to which they will not sink.
                                           
                                          "Downtown Train" - Tom Waits (speaking of artists I pray to God Glee leaves alone)
                                        • jarretcooper_2000
                                          Honestly, if they re admitting THAT much, it s way beyond the typical scenario...be it Eminem or Cerebus or [fill in the blank], the standard I m so above
                                          Message 20 of 21 , May 3, 2011
                                            Honestly, if they're admitting THAT much, it's way beyond the typical scenario...be it Eminem or Cerebus or [fill in the blank], the standard "I'm so above this" critical response is to say "honestly, it's just not very good" rather than "I'm offended". Admitting offense while also acknowledging the artistic achievement is about as much as you can hope for, in my experience.

                                            j
                                            c

                                            --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "effingmagnifier" <seilerjeff@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Or worse: "I have to admit it, though, even though he's Crazy Evil Misogynist Dave Sim, he's a hell of a letterer."
                                            >
                                            > ;P
                                            >
                                            > Jeff
                                            >
                                            > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Barry Deutsch <barry.deutsch@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Do people really deny disliking Dave because they find his opinions odious?
                                            > > In my experience it's a very common thing, in discussions of Sim, to hear
                                            > > people state it openly.
                                            > >
                                            > > I also hear a lot of "his politics are awful, but he's a great cartoonist"
                                            > > statements.
                                            > >
                                            > > Barry
                                          • Barry Deutsch
                                            Well, most of my friends are cartoonists. Very, very few cartoonists who have seen much of his work would deny Dave s skills. (But speaking of lettering: At
                                            Message 21 of 21 , May 3, 2011
                                              Well, most of my friends are cartoonists. Very, very few cartoonists who have seen much of his work would deny Dave's skills.

                                              (But speaking of lettering: At Stumptown, I overheard someone ask Carla Speed McNeil how he should learn to letter, and she told him to study Sim's work.)

                                              Barry

                                              On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 8:33 PM, jarretcooper_2000 <jarretc@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              Honestly, if they're admitting THAT much, it's way beyond the typical scenario...be it Eminem or Cerebus or [fill in the blank], the standard "I'm so above this" critical response is to say "honestly, it's just not very good" rather than "I'm offended". Admitting offense while also acknowledging the artistic achievement is about as much as you can hope for, in my experience.

                                              j
                                              c



                                              --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, "effingmagnifier" <seilerjeff@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Or worse: "I have to admit it, though, even though he's Crazy Evil Misogynist Dave Sim, he's a hell of a letterer."
                                              >
                                              > ;P
                                              >
                                              > Jeff
                                              >
                                              > --- In cerebus@yahoogroups.com, Barry Deutsch <barry.deutsch@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Do people really deny disliking Dave because they find his opinions odious?
                                              > > In my experience it's a very common thing, in discussions of Sim, to hear
                                              > > people state it openly.
                                              > >
                                              > > I also hear a lot of "his politics are awful, but he's a great cartoonist"
                                              > > statements.
                                              > >
                                              > > Barry


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