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applying fiberglass

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  • Mike
    How do you get the fiberglass to lay properly along the sheer line? I ve been having problems with the glass falling away from the hull. It lays out nicely but
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 1, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      How do you get the fiberglass to lay properly along the sheer line?
      I've been having problems with the glass falling away from the hull. It lays out nicely but a few minutes later I see it come loose. It is worse as you get farther from the canoes center. If the canoe has a tumble-home (which most of mine do) the problem is much worse. I constantly get lifted glass every 6-8 inches apart which extends a couple inches up the hull.

      I've tried taping the edge of the glass to the interior and a couple of other things with poor results. Any thing that holds the glass and prevents movement results in problems. I've cut the glass to closely match the sheer line with minimal overlap to reduce excess weight pulling down which has helped some.

      I've had to cut/sand the lifted glass and re-apply a strip to cover the empty spots. I think I'd be better off trimming the glass a few inches short of the sheer-line then adjust the hull such that the edge is in a flatter plane and then apply an over lapping strip. At least that would save the time and effort of cutting and sanding.

      Any help would be appreciated.

      Mike
    • Jim Marco
      Mike, This is a common problem laying glass around any irregular curve. You are absolutely correct, tape, thumb tacks, and other anchoring devices simply
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 1, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Mike,
        This is a common problem laying 'glass around any irregular curve. You are absolutely correct, tape, thumb tacks, and other anchoring devices simply don't work. After adding epoxy, there is a certain amount of spreading that will occur with a large sheet. I believe this is because the glue acts like a lubricant. It sort of lubricates the fibers slightly so they shift out a tad bit. Over a 4 or 5 foot sheet, this can be as much as a quarter inch or more...easily enough for a bubble. Over the length it can be as much as 3/4".
        Generally anything that pulls away from the boat will not be 'glassable. Not strictly true, since the epoxy can cause some stickiness and glue things back, but as a general rule. Add in compound curves of the canoe and tumble home, and you are right, it is a difficult task indeed. Larger sheets and heavier weights are worse. Light weights are better. I would suggest continuing along the vein you suggest, with a slight modification. Do the shear line, first, with a narrow strip, reducing the weight of cloth and providing a greater degree of flexibility with the cloth. And it will tend to amplify any stickiness of the epoxy you are using. Then adding the sheet down to the start of the tumble home, overlapping this thin strip, by at least 1-1/2". You can sand this smooth, then do the rest. Once you have a good coat of fiberglass on the hull, you can remove the forms. Removing the hull from the forms, to level out the tumblehome, can cause some loss of alignment, hence, overall loss of efficiency/tracking in the boat. I never use that much tumblehome, so have never have dealt with 'glassing a super large amount such as you are describing. Some manufacturers use a vacuum bag system, but I sort-of doubt you are equipped for that, otherwise you would not be asking.
        I do a similar thing with the stems, taking a narrow strip and pulling it around, then working it with a brush. I have managed to add these first, then just cut away around the full sheet rather than deal with the cutting and overlapping around stems AND dealing with the compound curves of the boat. They come out MUCH better. Soo, this is one point I disagree with Gilpatrick, et al. One under and one over, is far easier to do, MUCH neater, and does not interfere with the rest of the sheet on the boat. I think I would try separating the curves as you suggested. Placing the glass under the main sheet will just allow things to go a bit neater.
        My thoughts only . . .
        jdm
        -----Original Message-----
        From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
        Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:05 AM
        To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

        How do you get the fiberglass to lay properly along the sheer line?
        I've been having problems with the glass falling away from the hull. It lays out nicely but a few minutes later I see it come loose. It is worse as you get farther from the canoes center. If the canoe has a tumble-home (which most of mine do) the problem is much worse. I constantly get lifted glass every 6-8 inches apart which extends a couple inches up the hull.

        I've tried taping the edge of the glass to the interior and a couple of other things with poor results. Any thing that holds the glass and prevents movement results in problems. I've cut the glass to closely match the sheer line with minimal overlap to reduce excess weight pulling down which has helped some.

        I've had to cut/sand the lifted glass and re-apply a strip to cover the empty spots. I think I'd be better off trimming the glass a few inches short of the sheer-line then adjust the hull such that the edge is in a flatter plane and then apply an over lapping strip. At least that would save the time and effort of cutting and sanding.

        Any help would be appreciated.

        Mike




        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Carel Ruysink
        The last years I use as a standard practice PE foil sheets to cover the freshly impregnated cloth. PE does not stick to hardened epoxy (and it dissolves in
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 1, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          The last years I use as a standard practice PE foil sheets to cover the freshly impregnated cloth. PE does not stick to hardened epoxy (and it dissolves in polyester, do not use it there).
          It helps in a few ways.
          You get a very smoth surface.
          It prevents air getting in or under your mat wich is the most important benefit.
          It allows you to get a mucht leaner impregnation (higher glasscontent), thus stronger and it saves money that way.
          Epoxy is VERY slippery and makes your glass slip downhill. Using foil as cover there is a very thin layer of epoxyand there is much more friction and the PE will prevent to a very large extent the glass to sag and fold over what it does if not covered. If it wants to sag the whole sheet has to sag wich is much less likely if there is a minimum of resin. You can also anchor the PE to the boat that way preventing air getting under it from the sides wich also helps the glass from moving.
          It is the poor mans aproximation of vacuumbagging. Not foolproof, not hightec not always perfect but it helps me to a large degree.

          This is my simple addition to Marco's very correct idea's. You might give it a try on a lesser important moment.

          Succes, Carel.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Jim Marco
          To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:01 PM
          Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass



          Mike,
          This is a common problem laying 'glass around any irregular curve. You are absolutely correct, tape, thumb tacks, and other anchoring devices simply don't work. After adding epoxy, there is a certain amount of spreading that will occur with a large sheet. I believe this is because the glue acts like a lubricant. It sort of lubricates the fibers slightly so they shift out a tad bit. Over a 4 or 5 foot sheet, this can be as much as a quarter inch or more...easily enough for a bubble. Over the length it can be as much as 3/4".
          Generally anything that pulls away from the boat will not be 'glassable. Not strictly true, since the epoxy can cause some stickiness and glue things back, but as a general rule. Add in compound curves of the canoe and tumble home, and you are right, it is a difficult task indeed. Larger sheets and heavier weights are worse. Light weights are better. I would suggest continuing along the vein you suggest, with a slight modification. Do the shear line, first, with a narrow strip, reducing the weight of cloth and providing a greater degree of flexibility with the cloth. And it will tend to amplify any stickiness of the epoxy you are using. Then adding the sheet down to the start of the tumble home, overlapping this thin strip, by at least 1-1/2". You can sand this smooth, then do the rest. Once you have a good coat of fiberglass on the hull, you can remove the forms. Removing the hull from the forms, to level out the tumblehome, can cause some loss of alignment, hence, overall loss of efficiency/tracking in the boat. I never use that much tumblehome, so have never have dealt with 'glassing a super large amount such as you are describing. Some manufacturers use a vacuum bag system, but I sort-of doubt you are equipped for that, otherwise you would not be asking.
          I do a similar thing with the stems, taking a narrow strip and pulling it around, then working it with a brush. I have managed to add these first, then just cut away around the full sheet rather than deal with the cutting and overlapping around stems AND dealing with the compound curves of the boat. They come out MUCH better. Soo, this is one point I disagree with Gilpatrick, et al. One under and one over, is far easier to do, MUCH neater, and does not interfere with the rest of the sheet on the boat. I think I would try separating the curves as you suggested. Placing the glass under the main sheet will just allow things to go a bit neater.
          My thoughts only . . .
          jdm
          -----Original Message-----
          From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
          Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:05 AM
          To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

          How do you get the fiberglass to lay properly along the sheer line?
          I've been having problems with the glass falling away from the hull. It lays out nicely but a few minutes later I see it come loose. It is worse as you get farther from the canoes center. If the canoe has a tumble-home (which most of mine do) the problem is much worse. I constantly get lifted glass every 6-8 inches apart which extends a couple inches up the hull.

          I've tried taping the edge of the glass to the interior and a couple of other things with poor results. Any thing that holds the glass and prevents movement results in problems. I've cut the glass to closely match the sheer line with minimal overlap to reduce excess weight pulling down which has helped some.

          I've had to cut/sand the lifted glass and re-apply a strip to cover the empty spots. I think I'd be better off trimming the glass a few inches short of the sheer-line then adjust the hull such that the edge is in a flatter plane and then apply an over lapping strip. At least that would save the time and effort of cutting and sanding.

          Any help would be appreciated.

          Mike

          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Charles Scott
          Carel, what is this PE foil sheet you speak of? Can you describe it or name a vendor for it, or cite a Youtube that shows it being used? Thanks, Corky Scott
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 1, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Carel, what is this PE foil sheet you speak of? Can you describe it or
            name a vendor for it, or cite a Youtube that shows it being used?

            Thanks, Corky Scott

            Sent from my iPad

            On Apr 1, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Carel Ruysink <c.ruysink@...> wrote:



            The last years I use as a standard practice PE foil sheets to cover the
            freshly impregnated cloth. PE does not stick to hardened epoxy (and it
            dissolves in polyester, do not use it there).
            It helps in a few ways.
            You get a very smoth surface.
            It prevents air getting in or under your mat wich is the most important
            benefit.
            It allows you to get a mucht leaner impregnation (higher glasscontent),
            thus stronger and it saves money that way.
            Epoxy is VERY slippery and makes your glass slip downhill. Using foil as
            cover there is a very thin layer of epoxyand there is much more friction
            and the PE will prevent to a very large extent the glass to sag and fold
            over what it does if not covered. If it wants to sag the whole sheet has to
            sag wich is much less likely if there is a minimum of resin. You can also
            anchor the PE to the boat that way preventing air getting under it from the
            sides wich also helps the glass from moving.
            It is the poor mans aproximation of vacuumbagging. Not foolproof, not
            hightec not always perfect but it helps me to a large degree.

            This is my simple addition to Marco's very correct idea's. You might give
            it a try on a lesser important moment.

            Succes, Carel.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jim Marco
            To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:01 PM
            Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

            Mike,
            This is a common problem laying 'glass around any irregular curve. You are
            absolutely correct, tape, thumb tacks, and other anchoring devices simply
            don't work. After adding epoxy, there is a certain amount of spreading that
            will occur with a large sheet. I believe this is because the glue acts like
            a lubricant. It sort of lubricates the fibers slightly so they shift out a
            tad bit. Over a 4 or 5 foot sheet, this can be as much as a quarter inch or
            more...easily enough for a bubble. Over the length it can be as much as
            3/4".
            Generally anything that pulls away from the boat will not be 'glassable.
            Not strictly true, since the epoxy can cause some stickiness and glue
            things back, but as a general rule. Add in compound curves of the canoe and
            tumble home, and you are right, it is a difficult task indeed. Larger
            sheets and heavier weights are worse. Light weights are better. I would
            suggest continuing along the vein you suggest, with a slight modification.
            Do the shear line, first, with a narrow strip, reducing the weight of cloth
            and providing a greater degree of flexibility with the cloth. And it will
            tend to amplify any stickiness of the epoxy you are using. Then adding the
            sheet down to the start of the tumble home, overlapping this thin strip, by
            at least 1-1/2". You can sand this smooth, then do the rest. Once you have
            a good coat of fiberglass on the hull, you can remove the forms. Removing
            the hull from the forms, to level out the tumblehome, can cause some loss
            of alignment, hence, overall loss of efficiency/tracking in the boat. I
            never use that much tumblehome, so have never have dealt with 'glassing a
            super large amount such as you are describing. Some manufacturers use a
            vacuum bag system, but I sort-of doubt you are equipped for that, otherwise
            you would not be asking.
            I do a similar thing with the stems, taking a narrow strip and pulling it
            around, then working it with a brush. I have managed to add these first,
            then just cut away around the full sheet rather than deal with the cutting
            and overlapping around stems AND dealing with the compound curves of the
            boat. They come out MUCH better. Soo, this is one point I disagree with
            Gilpatrick, et al. One under and one over, is far easier to do, MUCH
            neater, and does not interfere with the rest of the sheet on the boat. I
            think I would try separating the curves as you suggested. Placing the glass
            under the main sheet will just allow things to go a bit neater.
            My thoughts only . . .
            jdm
            -----Original Message-----
            From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
            cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
            Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:05 AM
            To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

            How do you get the fiberglass to lay properly along the sheer line?
            I've been having problems with the glass falling away from the hull. It
            lays out nicely but a few minutes later I see it come loose. It is worse as
            you get farther from the canoes center. If the canoe has a tumble-home
            (which most of mine do) the problem is much worse. I constantly get lifted
            glass every 6-8 inches apart which extends a couple inches up the hull.

            I've tried taping the edge of the glass to the interior and a couple of
            other things with poor results. Any thing that holds the glass and prevents
            movement results in problems. I've cut the glass to closely match the sheer
            line with minimal overlap to reduce excess weight pulling down which has
            helped some.

            I've had to cut/sand the lifted glass and re-apply a strip to cover the
            empty spots. I think I'd be better off trimming the glass a few inches
            short of the sheer-line then adjust the hull such that the edge is in a
            flatter plane and then apply an over lapping strip. At least that would
            save the time and effort of cutting and sanding.

            Any help would be appreciated.

            Mike

            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • timgoldstein
            PE is Polyethylene and foil is an international term for what in the USA we call sheet. So PE Foil is polyethylene sheet. Basically disposable painter drop
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 1, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              PE is Polyethylene and foil is an international term for what in the USA we call sheet. So PE Foil is polyethylene sheet. Basically disposable painter drop cloth or garbage bags. Buy it on a roll in bulk.

              Tim G
              Denver, CO

              --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Charles Scott <charles.k.scott@...> wrote:
              >
              > Carel, what is this PE foil sheet you speak of? Can you describe it or
              > name a vendor for it, or cite a Youtube that shows it being used?
              >
              > Thanks, Corky Scott
              >
              > Sent from my iPad
              >
            • Jim Marco
              I get visions of Glad Wrap thinking of it. Hey, hey....might not be the stuff, now that I am thinking about it. You can often pick up thousand yard rolls at
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 1, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                I get visions of Glad Wrap thinking of it. Hey, hey....might not be the stuff, now that I am thinking about it.
                You can often pick up thousand yard rolls at Home Depot or Low's, I think....
                My thoughts only . . .
                jdm

                -----Original Message-----
                From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Scott
                Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 4:51 PM
                To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                Carel, what is this PE foil sheet you speak of? Can you describe it or name a vendor for it, or cite a Youtube that shows it being used?

                Thanks, Corky Scott

                Sent from my iPad

                On Apr 1, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Carel Ruysink <c.ruysink@...> wrote:



                The last years I use as a standard practice PE foil sheets to cover the freshly impregnated cloth. PE does not stick to hardened epoxy (and it dissolves in polyester, do not use it there).
                It helps in a few ways.
                You get a very smoth surface.
                It prevents air getting in or under your mat wich is the most important benefit.
                It allows you to get a mucht leaner impregnation (higher glasscontent), thus stronger and it saves money that way.
                Epoxy is VERY slippery and makes your glass slip downhill. Using foil as cover there is a very thin layer of epoxyand there is much more friction and the PE will prevent to a very large extent the glass to sag and fold over what it does if not covered. If it wants to sag the whole sheet has to sag wich is much less likely if there is a minimum of resin. You can also anchor the PE to the boat that way preventing air getting under it from the sides wich also helps the glass from moving.
                It is the poor mans aproximation of vacuumbagging. Not foolproof, not hightec not always perfect but it helps me to a large degree.

                This is my simple addition to Marco's very correct idea's. You might give it a try on a lesser important moment.

                Succes, Carel.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Jim Marco
                To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:01 PM
                Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                Mike,
                This is a common problem laying 'glass around any irregular curve. You are absolutely correct, tape, thumb tacks, and other anchoring devices simply don't work. After adding epoxy, there is a certain amount of spreading that will occur with a large sheet. I believe this is because the glue acts like a lubricant. It sort of lubricates the fibers slightly so they shift out a tad bit. Over a 4 or 5 foot sheet, this can be as much as a quarter inch or more...easily enough for a bubble. Over the length it can be as much as 3/4".
                Generally anything that pulls away from the boat will not be 'glassable.
                Not strictly true, since the epoxy can cause some stickiness and glue things back, but as a general rule. Add in compound curves of the canoe and tumble home, and you are right, it is a difficult task indeed. Larger sheets and heavier weights are worse. Light weights are better. I would suggest continuing along the vein you suggest, with a slight modification.
                Do the shear line, first, with a narrow strip, reducing the weight of cloth and providing a greater degree of flexibility with the cloth. And it will tend to amplify any stickiness of the epoxy you are using. Then adding the sheet down to the start of the tumble home, overlapping this thin strip, by at least 1-1/2". You can sand this smooth, then do the rest. Once you have a good coat of fiberglass on the hull, you can remove the forms. Removing the hull from the forms, to level out the tumblehome, can cause some loss of alignment, hence, overall loss of efficiency/tracking in the boat. I never use that much tumblehome, so have never have dealt with 'glassing a super large amount such as you are describing. Some manufacturers use a vacuum bag system, but I sort-of doubt you are equipped for that, otherwise you would not be asking.
                I do a similar thing with the stems, taking a narrow strip and pulling it around, then working it with a brush. I have managed to add these first, then just cut away around the full sheet rather than deal with the cutting and overlapping around stems AND dealing with the compound curves of the boat. They come out MUCH better. Soo, this is one point I disagree with Gilpatrick, et al. One under and one over, is far easier to do, MUCH neater, and does not interfere with the rest of the sheet on the boat. I think I would try separating the curves as you suggested. Placing the glass under the main sheet will just allow things to go a bit neater.
                My thoughts only . . .
                jdm
                -----Original Message-----
                From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
                Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:05 AM
                To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                How do you get the fiberglass to lay properly along the sheer line?
                I've been having problems with the glass falling away from the hull. It lays out nicely but a few minutes later I see it come loose. It is worse as you get farther from the canoes center. If the canoe has a tumble-home (which most of mine do) the problem is much worse. I constantly get lifted glass every 6-8 inches apart which extends a couple inches up the hull.

                I've tried taping the edge of the glass to the interior and a couple of other things with poor results. Any thing that holds the glass and prevents movement results in problems. I've cut the glass to closely match the sheer line with minimal overlap to reduce excess weight pulling down which has helped some.

                I've had to cut/sand the lifted glass and re-apply a strip to cover the empty spots. I think I'd be better off trimming the glass a few inches short of the sheer-line then adjust the hull such that the edge is in a flatter plane and then apply an over lapping strip. At least that would save the time and effort of cutting and sanding.

                Any help would be appreciated.

                Mike

                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • ryoalty
                Charles, He s talking about something that s close to what is called peel ply.  PE or Polyethelene is just a sheet of plastic.  Instead of vacuum bagging
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 1, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Charles,

                  He's talking about something that's close to what is called peel ply.  PE or Polyethelene is just a sheet of plastic.  Instead of vacuum bagging with epoxy moving through the peel ply to absorption layer. The PE Foil (or just call it a thin layer of plastic) covers the layup.  Working the epoxy towards the edge and out of the layup entirely by squeegee.

                  I've made boom vang levers from nomex core (honeycomb material) and layers of carbon backed with plastic.  The finish is very smooth.  I've not seen an entire hull done this way.  

                  David


                  ________________________________
                  From: Charles Scott <charles.k.scott@...>
                  To: "cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com" <cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 4:51 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                  Carel, what is this PE foil sheet you speak of?  Can you describe it or
                  name a vendor for it, or cite a Youtube that shows it being used?

                  Thanks, Corky Scott

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Apr 1, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Carel Ruysink <c.ruysink@...> wrote:



                  The last years I use as a standard practice PE foil sheets to cover the
                  freshly impregnated cloth. PE does not stick to hardened epoxy (and it
                  dissolves in polyester, do not use it there).
                  It helps in a few ways.
                  You get a very smoth surface.
                  It prevents air getting in or under your mat wich is the most important
                  benefit.
                  It allows you to get a mucht leaner impregnation (higher glasscontent),
                  thus stronger and it saves money that way.
                  Epoxy is VERY slippery and makes your glass slip downhill. Using foil as
                  cover there is a very thin layer of epoxyand there is much more friction
                  and the PE will prevent to a very large extent the glass to sag and fold
                  over what it does if not covered. If it wants to sag the whole sheet has to
                  sag wich is much less likely if there is a minimum of resin. You can also
                  anchor the PE to the boat that way preventing air getting under it from the
                  sides wich also helps the glass from moving.
                  It is the poor mans aproximation of vacuumbagging. Not foolproof, not
                  hightec not always perfect but it helps me to a large degree.

                  This is my simple addition to Marco's very correct idea's. You might give
                  it a try on a lesser important moment.

                  Succes, Carel.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Jim Marco
                  To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:01 PM
                  Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                  Mike,
                  This is a common problem laying 'glass around any irregular curve. You are
                  absolutely correct, tape, thumb tacks, and other anchoring devices simply
                  don't work. After adding epoxy, there is a certain amount of spreading that
                  will occur with a large sheet. I believe this is because the glue acts like
                  a lubricant. It sort of lubricates the fibers slightly so they shift out a
                  tad bit. Over a 4 or 5 foot sheet, this can be as much as a quarter inch or
                  more...easily enough for a bubble. Over the length it can be as much as
                  3/4".
                  Generally anything that pulls away from the boat will not be 'glassable.
                  Not strictly true, since the epoxy can cause some stickiness and glue
                  things back, but as a general rule. Add in compound curves of the canoe and
                  tumble home, and you are right, it is a difficult task indeed. Larger
                  sheets and heavier weights are worse. Light weights are better. I would
                  suggest continuing along the vein you suggest, with a slight modification.
                  Do the shear line, first, with a narrow strip, reducing the weight of cloth
                  and providing a greater degree of flexibility with the cloth. And it will
                  tend to amplify any stickiness of the epoxy you are using. Then adding the
                  sheet down to the start of the tumble home, overlapping this thin strip, by
                  at least 1-1/2". You can sand this smooth, then do the rest. Once you have
                  a good coat of fiberglass on the hull, you can remove the forms. Removing
                  the hull from the forms, to level out the tumblehome, can cause some loss
                  of alignment, hence, overall loss of efficiency/tracking in the boat. I
                  never use that much tumblehome, so have never have dealt with 'glassing a
                  super large amount such as you are describing. Some manufacturers use a
                  vacuum bag system, but I sort-of doubt you are equipped for that, otherwise
                  you would not be asking.
                  I do a similar thing with the stems, taking a narrow strip and pulling it
                  around, then working it with a brush. I have managed to add these first,
                  then just cut away around the full sheet rather than deal with the cutting
                  and overlapping around stems AND dealing with the compound curves of the
                  boat. They come out MUCH better. Soo, this is one point I disagree with
                  Gilpatrick, et al. One under and one over, is far easier to do, MUCH
                  neater, and does not interfere with the rest of the sheet on the boat. I
                  think I would try separating the curves as you suggested. Placing the glass
                  under the main sheet will just allow things to go a bit neater.
                  My thoughts only . . .
                  jdm
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                  cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
                  Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:05 AM
                  To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                  How do you get the fiberglass to lay properly along the sheer line?
                  I've been having problems with the glass falling away from the hull. It
                  lays out nicely but a few minutes later I see it come loose. It is worse as
                  you get farther from the canoes center. If the canoe has a tumble-home
                  (which most of mine do) the problem is much worse. I constantly get lifted
                  glass every 6-8 inches apart which extends a couple inches up the hull.

                  I've tried taping the edge of the glass to the interior and a couple of
                  other things with poor results. Any thing that holds the glass and prevents
                  movement results in problems. I've cut the glass to closely match the sheer
                  line with minimal overlap to reduce excess weight pulling down which has
                  helped some.

                  I've had to cut/sand the lifted glass and re-apply a strip to cover the
                  empty spots. I think I'd be better off trimming the glass a few inches
                  short of the sheer-line then adjust the hull such that the edge is in a
                  flatter plane and then apply an over lapping strip. At least that would
                  save the time and effort of cutting and sanding.

                  Any help would be appreciated.

                  Mike

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim Marco
                  I believe I ran across this at Northwest Canoe about 3(?) years ago. They were using plastic wrap to mount skid plates, I believe. Anyway, some of the really
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 1, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I believe I ran across this at Northwest Canoe about 3(?) years ago. They were using plastic wrap to mount skid plates, I believe. Anyway, some of the really severe tumblehomes could be done by wrapping the boat lengthwise, not so much around the boat. Again, I would caution you about the slickness of wet epoxy. You could end up with layers and creases if you do not pull them flat. I have seen many vacuum boats the same way, ie with creases, though.

                    I am not sure if I am much of a fan of the severe tumblehome of these boats, though. I suppose they have their place. For larger lakes, oceans, heavy water in general, I believe that a flare might provide a cleaner wave turn, and you could always go to a longer double paddle if the gunnels were getting in the way for a solo boat. Only for a whitewater boat does it make sense, but, not too many strippers are built to run whitewater. If you are using a tandem, you should be able to adjust the seats fairly close to the stems, hence, doing away with much of the needed tumblehome. But, that is more my personal philosophy, feel free to disagree.
                    My thoughts only . . .
                    jdm

                    From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ryoalty
                    Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 5:34 PM
                    To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass



                    Charles,

                    He's talking about something that's close to what is called peel ply. PE or Polyethelene is just a sheet of plastic. Instead of vacuum bagging with epoxy moving through the peel ply to absorption layer. The PE Foil (or just call it a thin layer of plastic) covers the layup. Working the epoxy towards the edge and out of the layup entirely by squeegee.

                    I've made boom vang levers from nomex core (honeycomb material) and layers of carbon backed with plastic. The finish is very smooth. I've not seen an entire hull done this way.

                    David

                    ________________________________
                    From: Charles Scott <charles.k.scott@...<mailto:charles.k.scott%40gmail.com>>
                    To: "cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 4:51 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                    Carel, what is this PE foil sheet you speak of? Can you describe it or
                    name a vendor for it, or cite a Youtube that shows it being used?

                    Thanks, Corky Scott

                    Sent from my iPad

                    On Apr 1, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Carel Ruysink <c.ruysink@...<mailto:c.ruysink%40hetnet.nl>> wrote:

                    The last years I use as a standard practice PE foil sheets to cover the
                    freshly impregnated cloth. PE does not stick to hardened epoxy (and it
                    dissolves in polyester, do not use it there).
                    It helps in a few ways.
                    You get a very smoth surface.
                    It prevents air getting in or under your mat wich is the most important
                    benefit.
                    It allows you to get a mucht leaner impregnation (higher glasscontent),
                    thus stronger and it saves money that way.
                    Epoxy is VERY slippery and makes your glass slip downhill. Using foil as
                    cover there is a very thin layer of epoxyand there is much more friction
                    and the PE will prevent to a very large extent the glass to sag and fold
                    over what it does if not covered. If it wants to sag the whole sheet has to
                    sag wich is much less likely if there is a minimum of resin. You can also
                    anchor the PE to the boat that way preventing air getting under it from the
                    sides wich also helps the glass from moving.
                    It is the poor mans aproximation of vacuumbagging. Not foolproof, not
                    hightec not always perfect but it helps me to a large degree.

                    This is my simple addition to Marco's very correct idea's. You might give
                    it a try on a lesser important moment.

                    Succes, Carel.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Jim Marco
                    To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:01 PM
                    Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                    Mike,
                    This is a common problem laying 'glass around any irregular curve. You are
                    absolutely correct, tape, thumb tacks, and other anchoring devices simply
                    don't work. After adding epoxy, there is a certain amount of spreading that
                    will occur with a large sheet. I believe this is because the glue acts like
                    a lubricant. It sort of lubricates the fibers slightly so they shift out a
                    tad bit. Over a 4 or 5 foot sheet, this can be as much as a quarter inch or
                    more...easily enough for a bubble. Over the length it can be as much as
                    3/4".
                    Generally anything that pulls away from the boat will not be 'glassable.
                    Not strictly true, since the epoxy can cause some stickiness and glue
                    things back, but as a general rule. Add in compound curves of the canoe and
                    tumble home, and you are right, it is a difficult task indeed. Larger
                    sheets and heavier weights are worse. Light weights are better. I would
                    suggest continuing along the vein you suggest, with a slight modification.
                    Do the shear line, first, with a narrow strip, reducing the weight of cloth
                    and providing a greater degree of flexibility with the cloth. And it will
                    tend to amplify any stickiness of the epoxy you are using. Then adding the
                    sheet down to the start of the tumble home, overlapping this thin strip, by
                    at least 1-1/2". You can sand this smooth, then do the rest. Once you have
                    a good coat of fiberglass on the hull, you can remove the forms. Removing
                    the hull from the forms, to level out the tumblehome, can cause some loss
                    of alignment, hence, overall loss of efficiency/tracking in the boat. I
                    never use that much tumblehome, so have never have dealt with 'glassing a
                    super large amount such as you are describing. Some manufacturers use a
                    vacuum bag system, but I sort-of doubt you are equipped for that, otherwise
                    you would not be asking.
                    I do a similar thing with the stems, taking a narrow strip and pulling it
                    around, then working it with a brush. I have managed to add these first,
                    then just cut away around the full sheet rather than deal with the cutting
                    and overlapping around stems AND dealing with the compound curves of the
                    boat. They come out MUCH better. Soo, this is one point I disagree with
                    Gilpatrick, et al. One under and one over, is far easier to do, MUCH
                    neater, and does not interfere with the rest of the sheet on the boat. I
                    think I would try separating the curves as you suggested. Placing the glass
                    under the main sheet will just allow things to go a bit neater.
                    My thoughts only . . .
                    jdm
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                    cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Mike
                    Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:05 AM
                    To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                    How do you get the fiberglass to lay properly along the sheer line?
                    I've been having problems with the glass falling away from the hull. It
                    lays out nicely but a few minutes later I see it come loose. It is worse as
                    you get farther from the canoes center. If the canoe has a tumble-home
                    (which most of mine do) the problem is much worse. I constantly get lifted
                    glass every 6-8 inches apart which extends a couple inches up the hull.

                    I've tried taping the edge of the glass to the interior and a couple of
                    other things with poor results. Any thing that holds the glass and prevents
                    movement results in problems. I've cut the glass to closely match the sheer
                    line with minimal overlap to reduce excess weight pulling down which has
                    helped some.

                    I've had to cut/sand the lifted glass and re-apply a strip to cover the
                    empty spots. I think I'd be better off trimming the glass a few inches
                    short of the sheer-line then adjust the hull such that the edge is in a
                    flatter plane and then apply an over lapping strip. At least that would
                    save the time and effort of cutting and sanding.

                    Any help would be appreciated.

                    Mike

                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • markedwards55
                    I found this recent series of responses to Mike s questions really interesting. I find the application of the cloth and epoxy to be the easy part of the cedar
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 1, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I found this recent series of responses to Mike's questions really interesting. I find the application of the cloth and epoxy to be the easy part of the cedar strip projects I've worked on. I have had none of the issues of bubbling fabric and air and slippery epoxy that I've read about. I've used 4 and 6 oz fabric and mostly use MAS epoxy although I used WEST once on a bigger project as well. That was with 10 oz cloth and still wet out fine but I had to work the epoxy in faster and use smaller batches.

                      I find that it is very important to watch how you handle the fabric. Don't use cloth that was shipped to you folded. I only use glass cloth from a role. It is critical in my experience to keep the integrity of the weave of the fabric wrinkle free and keep it clean too. Don't role it out on your floor. Drape the fabric carefully over the boat and even take care how you cut away the excess at the sheer as an agressive cut motion with scissors can cause the fabric to bunch.

                      I don't pre-soak the strips with a seal coat first. I get the bare wood sanded and cleaned and completely dust free, then am very careful laying the glass cloth over. Only using a squeegee, I start in the center and work down or up as the case may be and from the center toward one end. Working the epoxy into the glass firmly but not so hard as to cause the glass to be excessively dry,I find that the epoxy holds the glass in place and if you don't have too much material hanging below the sheer you can work the glass edge to stay flat on the cedar with the squeegee very easily. If you have too much material hanging then you run the rist of having the glass lose it's grip on the wood but you can go back and cut the excess away and re-establish the bond if you are quick about it.

                      There are a lot of zen moments for me in these projects but the application of the glass is definitely one of them. The whole project just pops with the glass and that first layer of epoxy. I continue with the squeegee through the next one of two "fill coats" of epoxy where I work to fill the weave of the fabric and sometimes go with a roll and tip for a final coat. Thanks all for sharing. this is really an interesting group and thread.
                      Mark

                      --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Jim Marco <jdm27@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I believe I ran across this at Northwest Canoe about 3(?) years ago. They were using plastic wrap to mount skid plates, I believe. Anyway, some of the really severe tumblehomes could be done by wrapping the boat lengthwise, not so much around the boat. Again, I would caution you about the slickness of wet epoxy. You could end up with layers and creases if you do not pull them flat. I have seen many vacuum boats the same way, ie with creases, though.
                      >
                      > I am not sure if I am much of a fan of the severe tumblehome of these boats, though. I suppose they have their place. For larger lakes, oceans, heavy water in general, I believe that a flare might provide a cleaner wave turn, and you could always go to a longer double paddle if the gunnels were getting in the way for a solo boat. Only for a whitewater boat does it make sense, but, not too many strippers are built to run whitewater. If you are using a tandem, you should be able to adjust the seats fairly close to the stems, hence, doing away with much of the needed tumblehome. But, that is more my personal philosophy, feel free to disagree.
                      > My thoughts only . . .
                      > jdm
                      >
                      > From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ryoalty
                      > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 5:34 PM
                      > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Charles,
                      >
                      > He's talking about something that's close to what is called peel ply. PE or Polyethelene is just a sheet of plastic. Instead of vacuum bagging with epoxy moving through the peel ply to absorption layer. The PE Foil (or just call it a thin layer of plastic) covers the layup. Working the epoxy towards the edge and out of the layup entirely by squeegee.
                      >
                      > I've made boom vang levers from nomex core (honeycomb material) and layers of carbon backed with plastic. The finish is very smooth. I've not seen an entire hull done this way.
                      >
                      > David
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Charles Scott <charles.k.scott@...<mailto:charles.k.scott%40gmail.com>>
                      > To: "cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 4:51 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass
                      >
                      > Carel, what is this PE foil sheet you speak of? Can you describe it or
                      > name a vendor for it, or cite a Youtube that shows it being used?
                      >
                      > Thanks, Corky Scott
                      >
                      > Sent from my iPad
                      >
                      > On Apr 1, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Carel Ruysink <c.ruysink@...<mailto:c.ruysink%40hetnet.nl>> wrote:
                      >
                      > The last years I use as a standard practice PE foil sheets to cover the
                      > freshly impregnated cloth. PE does not stick to hardened epoxy (and it
                      > dissolves in polyester, do not use it there).
                      > It helps in a few ways.
                      > You get a very smoth surface.
                      > It prevents air getting in or under your mat wich is the most important
                      > benefit.
                      > It allows you to get a mucht leaner impregnation (higher glasscontent),
                      > thus stronger and it saves money that way.
                      > Epoxy is VERY slippery and makes your glass slip downhill. Using foil as
                      > cover there is a very thin layer of epoxyand there is much more friction
                      > and the PE will prevent to a very large extent the glass to sag and fold
                      > over what it does if not covered. If it wants to sag the whole sheet has to
                      > sag wich is much less likely if there is a minimum of resin. You can also
                      > anchor the PE to the boat that way preventing air getting under it from the
                      > sides wich also helps the glass from moving.
                      > It is the poor mans aproximation of vacuumbagging. Not foolproof, not
                      > hightec not always perfect but it helps me to a large degree.
                      >
                      > This is my simple addition to Marco's very correct idea's. You might give
                      > it a try on a lesser important moment.
                      >
                      > Succes, Carel.
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Jim Marco
                      > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 7:01 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass
                      >
                      > Mike,
                      > This is a common problem laying 'glass around any irregular curve. You are
                      > absolutely correct, tape, thumb tacks, and other anchoring devices simply
                      > don't work. After adding epoxy, there is a certain amount of spreading that
                      > will occur with a large sheet. I believe this is because the glue acts like
                      > a lubricant. It sort of lubricates the fibers slightly so they shift out a
                      > tad bit. Over a 4 or 5 foot sheet, this can be as much as a quarter inch or
                      > more...easily enough for a bubble. Over the length it can be as much as
                      > 3/4".
                      > Generally anything that pulls away from the boat will not be 'glassable.
                      > Not strictly true, since the epoxy can cause some stickiness and glue
                      > things back, but as a general rule. Add in compound curves of the canoe and
                      > tumble home, and you are right, it is a difficult task indeed. Larger
                      > sheets and heavier weights are worse. Light weights are better. I would
                      > suggest continuing along the vein you suggest, with a slight modification.
                      > Do the shear line, first, with a narrow strip, reducing the weight of cloth
                      > and providing a greater degree of flexibility with the cloth. And it will
                      > tend to amplify any stickiness of the epoxy you are using. Then adding the
                      > sheet down to the start of the tumble home, overlapping this thin strip, by
                      > at least 1-1/2". You can sand this smooth, then do the rest. Once you have
                      > a good coat of fiberglass on the hull, you can remove the forms. Removing
                      > the hull from the forms, to level out the tumblehome, can cause some loss
                      > of alignment, hence, overall loss of efficiency/tracking in the boat. I
                      > never use that much tumblehome, so have never have dealt with 'glassing a
                      > super large amount such as you are describing. Some manufacturers use a
                      > vacuum bag system, but I sort-of doubt you are equipped for that, otherwise
                      > you would not be asking.
                      > I do a similar thing with the stems, taking a narrow strip and pulling it
                      > around, then working it with a brush. I have managed to add these first,
                      > then just cut away around the full sheet rather than deal with the cutting
                      > and overlapping around stems AND dealing with the compound curves of the
                      > boat. They come out MUCH better. Soo, this is one point I disagree with
                      > Gilpatrick, et al. One under and one over, is far easier to do, MUCH
                      > neater, and does not interfere with the rest of the sheet on the boat. I
                      > think I would try separating the curves as you suggested. Placing the glass
                      > under the main sheet will just allow things to go a bit neater.
                      > My thoughts only . . .
                      > jdm
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                      > cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Mike
                      > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:05 AM
                      > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass
                      >
                      > How do you get the fiberglass to lay properly along the sheer line?
                      > I've been having problems with the glass falling away from the hull. It
                      > lays out nicely but a few minutes later I see it come loose. It is worse as
                      > you get farther from the canoes center. If the canoe has a tumble-home
                      > (which most of mine do) the problem is much worse. I constantly get lifted
                      > glass every 6-8 inches apart which extends a couple inches up the hull.
                      >
                      > I've tried taping the edge of the glass to the interior and a couple of
                      > other things with poor results. Any thing that holds the glass and prevents
                      > movement results in problems. I've cut the glass to closely match the sheer
                      > line with minimal overlap to reduce excess weight pulling down which has
                      > helped some.
                      >
                      > I've had to cut/sand the lifted glass and re-apply a strip to cover the
                      > empty spots. I think I'd be better off trimming the glass a few inches
                      > short of the sheer-line then adjust the hull such that the edge is in a
                      > flatter plane and then apply an over lapping strip. At least that would
                      > save the time and effort of cutting and sanding.
                      >
                      > Any help would be appreciated.
                      >
                      > Mike
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Carel Ruysink
                      You and David (Ryoalty) are spot on . I started this practice years ago repairing my whitewater canoes and kayaks in particular the kevlar ones because it is
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        You and David (Ryoalty) are 'spot on".

                        I started this practice years ago repairing my whitewater canoes and kayaks in particular the kevlar ones because it is impossible to sand kevlar/epoxy smooth. Sanding makes the surface only worse.
                        I used at first PE shoppingbags from the supermarket. I live in the Netherlands, I believe in the US of A you use paperbags, that wont work LOL. I dont know if you use plasic bags too.
                        They have the right thickness not to tear when pulling the plastic off. Thinner will tear, thicker will not stay snug to the wet resin.
                        Later I did buy it by the yard/meter for pristine foldfree plasic. For a complete side I cut strips from 3/4 foot wide to 2 foot wide to follow the curves (have 2 to 4 inch overlaps).
                        Use sqeegees to remove exces resin and wooden battens, clamped or ballasted to hold the assembly in place and prevent air getting under.

                        Afterwards there are of course some small ridges and wrinkles you have to sand but sanding is always neccesary for the next layer (glassfibre or UV varnish).
                        Small repairs hardly ever need sanding for the purpose of fairing.

                        Carel.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: timgoldstein
                        To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:18 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass



                        PE is Polyethylene and foil is an international term for what in the USA we call sheet. So PE Foil is polyethylene sheet. Basically disposable painter drop cloth or garbage bags. Buy it on a roll in bulk.

                        Tim G
                        Denver, CO

                        --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Charles Scott <charles.k.scott@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Carel, what is this PE foil sheet you speak of? Can you describe it or
                        > name a vendor for it, or cite a Youtube that shows it being used?
                        >
                        > Thanks, Corky Scott
                        >
                        > Sent from my iPad
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jim Marco
                        Hi Carel, Yeah, we have both types of bags here in the states. In fact, I much prefer the paper bags, since they can be recycled at need and when in a
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Carel,
                          Yeah, we have both types of bags here in the 'states. In fact, I much prefer the paper bags, since they can be recycled at need and when in a landfill they break down like any other paper waste. Anyway, they often use different plastics, it is not strictly PE. Some just tear with the slightest nick, some are more like garbage bags and have good stretch properties. You can get all sorts of films at the local hardware store. .3mil up to 8mil with 3mil and 6mil being the most common.
                          Epoxy can be a odd. Many people think it "dries", but it really does not. It hardens. It does not need air. It also benefits from a chemical bond. IE hot coating, or coating directly over a gelled coat. Gelling is the process of curing that can take up to three weeks to a month. Usually I consider 24 hours the maximum for a chemical bond. But this is not strictly true. I have had layers flake off after a repair on boats that are a couple years. Extra sanding or a slightly less well prepared surface is all it takes to prevent that. Using 80grit rather than smoothing grits (223 or 400) will leave a stronger "tooth" to the old epoxy. It actually hardens exponentially...ie it hardens fairly quickly then slows down and goes slower over time. As long as it is still hardening, a chemical bond is possible. The glaze or blush of some epoxies can interfere, too. This should at least be washed with soap and water or acetone/toluene or something like that.
                          Thanks for mentioning the PE films. This is the first I have seen it on this list.
                          jdm
                          From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carel Ruysink
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 3:30 AM
                          To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass



                          You and David (Ryoalty) are 'spot on".

                          I started this practice years ago repairing my whitewater canoes and kayaks in particular the kevlar ones because it is impossible to sand kevlar/epoxy smooth. Sanding makes the surface only worse.
                          I used at first PE shoppingbags from the supermarket. I live in the Netherlands, I believe in the US of A you use paperbags, that wont work LOL. I dont know if you use plasic bags too.
                          They have the right thickness not to tear when pulling the plastic off. Thinner will tear, thicker will not stay snug to the wet resin.
                          Later I did buy it by the yard/meter for pristine foldfree plasic. For a complete side I cut strips from 3/4 foot wide to 2 foot wide to follow the curves (have 2 to 4 inch overlaps).
                          Use sqeegees to remove exces resin and wooden battens, clamped or ballasted to hold the assembly in place and prevent air getting under.

                          Afterwards there are of course some small ridges and wrinkles you have to sand but sanding is always neccesary for the next layer (glassfibre or UV varnish).
                          Small repairs hardly ever need sanding for the purpose of fairing.

                          Carel.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: timgoldstein
                          To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:18 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] applying fiberglass

                          PE is Polyethylene and foil is an international term for what in the USA we call sheet. So PE Foil is polyethylene sheet. Basically disposable painter drop cloth or garbage bags. Buy it on a roll in bulk.

                          Tim G
                          Denver, CO

                          --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>, Charles Scott <charles.k.scott@...<mailto:charles.k.scott@...>> wrote:
                          >
                          > Carel, what is this PE foil sheet you speak of? Can you describe it or
                          > name a vendor for it, or cite a Youtube that shows it being used?
                          >
                          > Thanks, Corky Scott
                          >
                          > Sent from my iPad
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mike
                          I d like to thank every-one for their input. Some interesting ideas came up. I ll have to play around with the PE sheets and see how that can work. It should
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I'd like to thank every-one for their input. Some interesting ideas came up. I'll have to play around with the PE sheets and see how that can work. It should work well in combination with James suggestion of applying a strip along the sheer line. I'll have to set up something to test it on.
                            I usually have tumble-homes on my canoes for a good reason, I need them. I frequently take a break from building canoes and go put them to use. I'll take off for a week to 10 days into the back country of Maine, NH . For a trip this long you'll be hitting lakes, rivers and rapids. Since most of the lakes run north to south you frequently (almost daily)get northerly winds coming down the lakes generating waves that break over the bow. Once on the rivers you have a choice of either running the rapids or portaging. I'd rather not unload carry and re-load, so I take a break and scout then head on down. It's usually 2.5+ but after a rain hitting sections of class 3 are not unusual.
                            So I build my canoes to not only look good but to be well used. They get scratched up but I've never had one break.
                          • Charles Scott
                            I used peel ply when I was fabricating fuel tanks for the airplane I was building. Peel ply was basically polyester dacron cloth that was laid on top of the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I used peel ply when I was fabricating fuel tanks for the airplane I was
                              building. Peel ply was basically polyester dacron cloth that was laid on
                              top of the fiberglass after it was saturated, and it was squeegeed down on
                              top of the layup. When the resin had cured, the peel ply was "peeled" off.
                              The resultant surface was ready for another layup, or sanding down for a
                              final painting, if you were creating a wing surface. The peel ply was like
                              sail material, it was stiff and did not lend itself well to following
                              curves. And of course it was absolutely necessary to rip it off the
                              surface each time it was used or it would compromise the strength of
                              ensuing layups if left in place and bonded over. The beauty of peel ply is
                              that is set up the surface of the layup for further layups, without needing
                              excessive sanding to prep the surface for the next layup.

                              Does this work for cedar strip canoe fabrication? Well in some
                              circumstances yes, in others no. Because peel ply doesn't bend well, it
                              cannot help with intricate curves, unless you slice it and lay it in
                              piecemeal. It might be easier to attach fiberglass fabric to tumblehome
                              designs by standing by and repeated gentle stroking using a squeegee to
                              keep the fabric attached while it cured. Or, having a lot of cauls nearby
                              with which to bend the fabric into place with clamps.

                              No one claimed fabricating a cedar strip canoe was easy, they merely said
                              that it looked good.

                              Corky Scott



                              Sent from my iPad

                              On Apr 4, 2013, at 10:12 AM, Mike <naicrafts@...> wrote:



                              I'd like to thank every-one for their input. Some interesting ideas came
                              up. I'll have to play around with the PE sheets and see how that can work.
                              It should work well in combination with James suggestion of applying a
                              strip along the sheer line. I'll have to set up something to test it on.
                              I usually have tumble-homes on my canoes for a good reason, I need them. I
                              frequently take a break from building canoes and go put them to use. I'll
                              take off for a week to 10 days into the back country of Maine, NH . For a
                              trip this long you'll be hitting lakes, rivers and rapids. Since most of
                              the lakes run north to south you frequently (almost daily)get northerly
                              winds coming down the lakes generating waves that break over the bow. Once
                              on the rivers you have a choice of either running the rapids or portaging.
                              I'd rather not unload carry and re-load, so I take a break and scout then
                              head on down. It's usually 2.5+ but after a rain hitting sections of class
                              3 are not unusual.
                              So I build my canoes to not only look good but to be well used. They get
                              scratched up but I've never had one break.




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