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Re: northern white cedar with knots

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  • dwellej
    I just finished stripping my second canoe and used sinker cypress strips that were clear but had various lengths, none of which were sufficient for the whole
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 8, 2012
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      I just finished stripping my second canoe and used sinker cypress strips that were clear but had various lengths, none of which were sufficient for the whole length of the canoe. Rather than scarf joints together, which would have taken forever, I butted strips together while building the hull. You could use a similar approach and cut shorter strips to avoid any loose knots. The joints in my boat are somewhat visible but only if you look close and I figure it is worth it to use interesting wood with a story behind it.

      To ensure this didn't leave a weak point in the canoe I made sure to stagger all of the joints so that they were always at least two feet from the previous joint and didn't repeat the location for at least 10 strips.

      The basic process... I would cut a square edge on a strip and place it in the middle of one of the forms and glue it up but would leave the last station before the joint un-stapled. To make the joint, I would choose a second strip of the correct length with similar grain and color. I would then lay this strip in the cove, overlap the first strip slightly and trace the joint profile on the second strip. I would then cut this second strip at the marked line, glue it up, and butt the two together with plenty of glue between them. A staple across the joint ensured that the strips stayed together well.

      Good luck, whatever you end up doing. This is my second boat and they are as fun to paddle as they are to make.

      --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, William Schuster <wmschuster@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > I recently had two twenty foot northern white cedar logs cut & dried for boat cedar strips. Unfortunately the boards have a lot of knots and not as clear as I had hoped for. So, knots and
      > all I plan to cut the strips. The question is; will the cutting of the strips and routering the bead/cove workout with the knots?
      >
      > Thoughts?
      >
      > Schuster
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------
      > On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 4:01 PM CDT William Schuster wrote:
      >
      > >Yes, I had similar concerns. Also potential "bleeding" of the stain to adjacent cedar strips.
      > >
      > >Schuster
      > >
      > >
      > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
    • Tim
      William- I don t think cutting and routing is where you will have the problems. Getting the strips to hang together near the lower bow and stern (they need to
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 11, 2013
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        William-

        I don't think cutting and routing is where you will have the problems. Getting the strips to hang together near the lower bow and stern (they need to twist a lot there) and your aesthetic sense would be bigger concerns. It's easy to test the strips to see how much twist they can take. Sanding will take longer and be more difficult due to knots being harder than the adjacent wood. I have had good luck scarfing 45 degrees vertically in the strips.

        Tim Greiner

        > --- William Schuster wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I recently had two twenty foot northern white cedar logs cut & dried for boat cedar strips. Unfortunately the boards have a lot of knots and not as clear as I had hoped for. So, knots and
        > > all I plan to cut the strips. The question is; will the cutting of the strips and routering the bead/cove workout with the knots?
        > >
        > > Thoughts?
        > >
        > > Schuster
        > >
        >
      • Charles Scott
        Hi William, I did the same thing it sounds like; bought some local white cedar and had it milled onsite and then delivered to me at home. It was the knottiest
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 12, 2013
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          Hi William, I did the same thing it sounds like; bought some local white
          cedar and had it milled onsite and then delivered to me at home. It was
          the knottiest wood I've ever seen.

          I took the labor intensive method of dealing with it. After drying it out
          I planed it all to rough dimension, then ripped it all to slightly oversize
          in thickness. Then I built a jig to scarf each piece and cut out all the
          knots and blemishes. I ended up with hundreds of strips of wood, each one
          having a 10 degree scarf joint and varying in length from 1 foot to over
          ten feet. Most were only 1 to 3 feet long.

          Then I built a jig that was 18 feet long into which I could lay up to three
          runs of strips. I painstakingly applied glue and clamped each run and left
          them to dry up overnight. I'd remove them the next evening and lay in more
          and continued this until I had as many 18 foot long strips as I felt I
          needed. Then I planed each one to proper thickness, and milled the bead
          and cove in them. Rare was the strip that was single colored or had one or
          only two joints. Most had four to six joints.

          I didn't do that again when I built my second canoe, I bought clear western
          redwood in the proper dimension and length and ripped what I needed from
          them. I still planed and then bead and coved them, but not having to glue
          everything together this time saved me months of work.

          Corky Scott




          > --- William Schuster wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I recently had two twenty foot northern white cedar logs cut & dried
          for boat cedar strips. Unfortunately the boards have a lot of knots and not
          as clear as I had hoped for. So, knots and
          > > all I plan to cut the strips. The question is; will the cutting of the
          strips and routering the bead/cove workout with the knots?
          > >
          > > Thoughts?
          > >
          > > Schuster
          > >
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gerald Boucher
          I hates Knots! I did the same money saving move and cut and scarfed and glued until I learned buy junk you get junk . Adding the cost of labor to the wood
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 12, 2013
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            I hates Knots!

            I did the same money saving move and cut and scarfed and glued until I
            learned 'buy junk you get junk'.

            Adding the cost of labor to the wood made me realize my error.
            I deserve better, my boat deserves better.

            Now I buy carefully selected material
            I make enough mistakes along the way but not this one anymore.
            GerryB



            -----Original Message-----
            From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Scott
            Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:47 AM
            To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: northern white cedar with knots

            Hi William, I did the same thing it sounds like; bought some local white
            cedar and had it milled onsite and then delivered to me at home. It was
            the knottiest wood I've ever seen.

            I took the labor intensive method of dealing with it. After drying it out
            I planed it all to rough dimension, then ripped it all to slightly oversize
            in thickness. Then I built a jig to scarf each piece and cut out all the
            knots and blemishes. I ended up with hundreds of strips of wood, each one
            having a 10 degree scarf joint and varying in length from 1 foot to over
            ten feet. Most were only 1 to 3 feet long.

            Then I built a jig that was 18 feet long into which I could lay up to three
            runs of strips. I painstakingly applied glue and clamped each run and left
            them to dry up overnight. I'd remove them the next evening and lay in more
            and continued this until I had as many 18 foot long strips as I felt I
            needed. Then I planed each one to proper thickness, and milled the bead
            and cove in them. Rare was the strip that was single colored or had one or
            only two joints. Most had four to six joints.

            I didn't do that again when I built my second canoe, I bought clear western
            redwood in the proper dimension and length and ripped what I needed from
            them. I still planed and then bead and coved them, but not having to glue
            everything together this time saved me months of work.

            Corky Scott




            > --- William Schuster wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I recently had two twenty foot northern white cedar logs cut & dried
            for boat cedar strips. Unfortunately the boards have a lot of knots and not
            as clear as I had hoped for. So, knots and
            > > all I plan to cut the strips. The question is; will the cutting of the
            strips and routering the bead/cove workout with the knots?
            > >
            > > Thoughts?
            > >
            > > Schuster
            > >
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

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          • Mike Duffy
            Tim, I would go ahead and cut your strips. Then I would examine where the knots are located. If they are located on an edge cut them out and scarf the piece
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 12, 2013
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              Tim,
              I would go ahead and cut your strips. Then I would examine where the knots are located. If they are located on an edge cut them out and scarf the piece back together if you need the longer length. I would also cut out knots which are big enough to cover most of a strip.

              When I scarf strips together I use an 8-1 ratio for the joint and use a belt sander to match the pieces, this gives a larger surface area for gluing. I used to use a 45 miter but found the piece to be fragile and great care had to be taken when placing them, with an 8-1 joint I've not a a failure and the joint is barely visible.

              Beware, for some reason the strips will tend to bend like a hockey stick in the areas around a knot.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • norcal729
              Greetings Mike, Please excuse my ignorance, but would you elaborate on exactly what you mean by an 8-1 ratio? TNX n advance. Ron
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 12, 2013
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                Greetings Mike,
                Please excuse my ignorance, but would you elaborate on exactly what you mean by an 8-1 ratio? TNX n advance.
                Ron

                --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Mike Duffy wrote:
                >
                > Tim,
                > I would go ahead and cut your strips. Then I would examine where the knots are located. If they are located on an edge cut them out and scarf the piece back together if you need the longer length. I would also cut out knots which are big enough to cover most of a strip.
                >
                > When I scarf strips together I use an 8-1 ratio for the joint and use a belt sander to match the pieces, this gives a larger surface area for gluing. I used to use a 45 miter but found the piece to be fragile and great care had to be taken when placing them, with an 8-1 joint I've not a a failure and the joint is barely visible.
                >
                > Beware, for some reason the strips will tend to bend like a hockey stick in the areas around a knot.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • cbp704
                8 to 1 ratio of thickness to length in the ramp of a scarf joint. Here s an illustration of how it s done in plywood:
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 12, 2013
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                  8 to 1 ratio of thickness to length in the "ramp" of a scarf joint. Here's an illustration of how it's done in plywood:

                  http://www.clcboats.com/default/stitch-and-glue-boat-building.html

                  I don't get scientific about it myself, just make a simple miter box-like jig and go to town, see:

                  http://ngc704.home.comcast.net/~ngc704/NewOI/page_2.htm

                  As for knots, I included plenty on my first couple strippers because I thought they look cool, and so they do -- but never again. They're problematic in too many ways; may cause excessive epoxy sponging, outgassing, sanding inconsistency, weak spots, etc., etc. In short, I wish I could include knots for appearance reasons, but have determined that I cannot for every other reason in the world. Your mileage may vary, but that's my experience.

                  Cheers,
                  Kurt Maurer
                  League City, Texas
                  www.sawdustfactory.net

                  --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, "norcal729" wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings Mike,
                  > Please excuse my ignorance, but would you elaborate on exactly what you mean by an 8-1 ratio? TNX n advance.
                  > Ron
                  >
                • Mike Duffy
                  It the ratio of length over thickness. A 1 thick board would have an 8 long joint. For our use a 1/4 thick strip would have a 2 joint. I make mine after I
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 13, 2013
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                    It the ratio of length over thickness. A 1" thick board would have an 8" long joint. For our use a 1/4 thick strip would have a 2" joint. I make mine after I have milled the strips. I lay them side by side bead into cove and make the joint with a belt sander sanding until the ends are feathered. I then flip one piece over and glue.
                    I came across the ratio while browsing for info on scarf joints a few years ago. I got the technique the same way.

                    --- On Tue, 2/12/13, norcal729 <berlier@...> wrote:

                    From: norcal729 <berlier@...>
                    Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: northern white cedar with knots
                    To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, February 12, 2013, 12:35 PM
















                     













                    Greetings Mike,

                    Please excuse my ignorance, but would you elaborate on exactly what you mean by an 8-1 ratio? TNX n advance.

                    Ron



                    --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Mike Duffy wrote:

                    >

                    > Tim,

                    > I would go ahead and cut your strips. Then I would examine where the knots are located. If they are located on an edge cut them out and scarf the piece back together if you need the longer length. I would also cut out knots which are big enough to cover most of a strip.

                    >

                    > When I scarf strips together I use an 8-1 ratio for the joint and use a belt sander to match the pieces, this gives a larger surface area for gluing. I used to use a 45 miter but found the piece to be fragile and great care had to be taken when placing them, with an 8-1 joint I've not a a failure and the joint is barely visible.

                    >

                    > Beware, for some reason the strips will tend to bend like a hockey stick in the areas around a knot.

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >



























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tim
                    Mike, Ron- 8:1 is certainly strong, but I have successfully used 1:1 (45 degree) as the joints are low stress and reinforced by another strip on each side of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 13, 2013
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                      Mike, Ron-

                      8:1 is certainly strong, but I have successfully used 1:1 (45 degree) as the joints are low stress and reinforced by another strip on each side of it. Don't put joints where you need to twist and bend them a lot and you'll be fine. 45 degrees is a lot faster because you can do it in a miter box. The joint is less conspicuous also due to less feathering being exposed by sanding.

                      Tim Greiner

                      --- Mike Duffy wrote:
                      >
                      > It the ratio of length over thickness. A 1" thick board would have an 8" long joint. For our use a 1/4 thick strip would have a 2" joint. I make mine after I have milled the strips. I lay them side by side bead into cove and make the joint with a belt sander sanding until the ends are feathered. I then flip one piece over and glue.
                      > I came across the ratio while browsing for info on scarf joints a few years ago. I got the technique the same way.
                      > >
                      > norcal729
                      >
                      > Greetings Mike,
                      >
                      > Please excuse my ignorance, but would you elaborate on exactly what you mean by an 8-1 ratio? TNX n advance.
                      >
                      > Ron
                      >
                      >
                      Mike Duffy wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Tim,
                      >
                      > > I would go ahead and cut your strips. Then I would examine where the knots are located. If they are located on an edge cut them out and scarf the piece back together if you need the longer length. I would also cut out knots which are big enough to cover most of a strip.
                      >
                      > > When I scarf strips together I use an 8-1 ratio for the joint and use a belt sander to match the pieces, this gives a larger surface area for gluing. I used to use a 45 miter but found the piece to be fragile and great care had to be taken when placing them, with an 8-1 joint I've not a a failure and the joint is barely visible.
                      >
                      > > Beware, for some reason the strips will tend to bend like a hockey stick in the areas around a knot.
                      >
                      > >
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