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Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Epoxy choices

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  • Anthony Spezio
    I have used System Three Epoxy and really like it. I have enough for the second canoe that is  ready to Epoxy but due to health problems, I sold the hull and
    Message 1 of 12 , May 19, 2012
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      I have used System Three Epoxy and really like it. I have enough for the second canoe that is  ready to Epoxy but due to health problems, I sold the hull and the materials to finish the canoe.  The buyer will come over next month and get the glass on the hull so it can be moved to his shop. I have photos of the hull on the photo section under bambotony Canoe. The Cypress strip Canoe also on the photo page was finished with the System Three. The people at System Three were very pleasant to work with.
      Arkansas Tony


      ________________________________
      From: woodjointer <troll4vikings@...>
      To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 3:51 PM
      Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Epoxy choices


       

      I am about to embark on a project that will culminate in me jointly building a Chestnut Prospector from a set of plans from Bear Mountain boats; while I also explain the steps that I have taken to accomplish my do-it-yourself project on you-yube. I have spent nearly a decade preparing to do this by reading e-mails from this group, as well as reading three books:

      Canoecraft: by Ted Moores,

      Strip Built Canoe: by Randy Folsom and

      Building Strip-Planked Boats by Nick Schade

      Trying to obtain a better advantage as I demonstrate and also explain to the you-tube viewer what I am doing at the same time. I really found Randy Folsom's book the best one of all three to help me understand lofting. I had struggled learning how to use a table of offsets to loft my patterns. That is why I bought full size pans. I think I am ready to demonstrate lofting in a video on you-tube.

      I have decided to use 80% Select Western Red Cedar and 20% mixture of Ash and White Cedar and African Mahogany to build this canoe and subscribe myself to a deliberate and artful approach to building my first wood strip canoe. I truly appreciate the members in this group who have shared their experience and wisdom and can only hope that my efforts pay respect to this craft and honor those who have figured out how to build boats from wooden strips.

      One area that I have not really sharpened wits about is Epoxy choices.

      I have bought 20 yards of 60 inch wide 6 ounce fabric from West systems, but I am not so sure that West systems Epoxy is a better choice than System Three's Silver Tip epoxy.

      Does anybody care to share their experience?

      Thanks, Blake




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • dcarm1@comcast.net
      In 1989 I made a 16 Micmac from the plans in David Hazen s book, Strippers guide to Canoe Making.  I used Sy stem 3 epoxy and it was very easy to work with
      Message 2 of 12 , May 19, 2012
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        In 1989 I made a 16' Micmac from the plans in David Hazen's book, Strippers guide to Canoe Making.  I used Sy stem 3 epoxy and it was very easy to work with and has held up quite well over the years. 

        -just my 2 cents worth-



        ----- Original Message -----


        From: "woodjointer" <troll4vikings@...>
        To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 1:51:23 PM
        Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Epoxy choices

         




        I am about to embark on a project that will culminate in me jointly building a Chestnut Prospector from a set of plans from Bear Mountain boats; while I also explain the steps that I have taken to accomplish my do-it-yourself project on you-yube. I have spent nearly a decade preparing to do this by reading e-mails from this group, as well as reading three books:

        Canoecraft: by Ted Moores,

        Strip Built Canoe: by Randy Folsom and

        Building Strip-Planked Boats by Nick Schade

        Trying to obtain a better advantage as I demonstrate and also explain to the you-tube viewer what I am doing at the same time. I really found Randy Folsom's book the best one of all three to help me understand lofting. I had struggled learning how to use a table of offsets to loft my patterns. That is why I bought full size pans. I think I am ready to demonstrate lofting in a video on you-tube.

        I have decided to use 80% Select Western Red Cedar and 20% mixture of Ash and White Cedar and African Mahogany to build this canoe and subscribe myself to a deliberate and artful approach to building my first wood strip canoe. I truly appreciate the members in this group who have shared their experience and wisdom and can only hope that my efforts pay respect to this craft and honor those who have figured out how to build boats from wooden strips.

        One area that I have not really sharpened wits about is Epoxy choices.

        I have bought 20 yards of 60 inch wide 6 ounce fabric from West systems, but I am not so sure that West systems Epoxy is a better choice than System Three's Silver Tip epoxy.

        Does anybody care to share their experience?

        Thanks, Blake




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • derenoncourt.lionel@gmail.com
        Blake, I have just finished building a White Guide strip canoe from the plans provided by Gil Gilpatrick in his book: Building a Strip Canoe . I also used
        Message 3 of 12 , May 19, 2012
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          Blake,

          I have just finished building a White Guide strip canoe from the plans provided by Gil Gilpatrick in his book: "Building a Strip Canoe". I also used guidance from Susan Van Leuven in her book: "Illustrated Guide to Wood Strip Canoe !uilding". They both were very helpful. I particularly appreciated the detailed explanations given by Susan Van Leuven and her attention to details that make for good craftmanship.

          I used MAS epoxy and am very glad with it. Simple to use. No blush, minimal air bubbles. Although I used some fast hardener, I mostly used the slow hardener with the resin. I particularly liked the fact that the slow hardener resin mix has very low odor and did not trigger allergies. I had prepared myself with buying a mask against the fume. But there was hardly any to be bothered with. I highly recommend the MAS epoxy system.

          I did announced that I have a 16' strongback made of 2x6 s to give away to anyone who would care to use it. Unfortunately I do not have a place to store it and would hate to see it destroyed in the rains of the summer. - live in Louisville KY.

          Good luck with your project.

          Lionel D
          Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

          -----Original Message-----
          From: "woodjointer" <troll4vikings@...>
          Sender: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 20:51:23
          To: <cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com>
          Reply-To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Epoxy choices

          I am about to embark on a project that will culminate in me jointly building a Chestnut Prospector from a set of plans from Bear Mountain boats; while I also explain the steps that I have taken to accomplish my do-it-yourself project on you-yube. I have spent nearly a decade preparing to do this by reading e-mails from this group, as well as reading three books:

          Canoecraft: by Ted Moores,

          Strip Built Canoe: by Randy Folsom and

          Building Strip-Planked Boats by Nick Schade

          Trying to obtain a better advantage as I demonstrate and also explain to the you-tube viewer what I am doing at the same time. I really found Randy Folsom's book the best one of all three to help me understand lofting. I had struggled learning how to use a table of offsets to loft my patterns. That is why I bought full size pans. I think I am ready to demonstrate lofting in a video on you-tube.

          I have decided to use 80% Select Western Red Cedar and 20% mixture of Ash and White Cedar and African Mahogany to build this canoe and subscribe myself to a deliberate and artful approach to building my first wood strip canoe. I truly appreciate the members in this group who have shared their experience and wisdom and can only hope that my efforts pay respect to this craft and honor those who have figured out how to build boats from wooden strips.

          One area that I have not really sharpened wits about is Epoxy choices.

          I have bought 20 yards of 60 inch wide 6 ounce fabric from West systems, but I am not so sure that West systems Epoxy is a better choice than System Three's Silver Tip epoxy.

          Does anybody care to share their experience?

          Thanks, Blake




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • smart151@btinternet.com
          Hi could tell us your you-tube page , thanks , Graeme.
          Message 4 of 12 , May 20, 2012
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            Hi could tell us your you-tube page , thanks ,
            Graeme.

            --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, "woodjointer" <troll4vikings@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am about to embark on a project that will culminate in me jointly building a Chestnut Prospector from a set of plans from Bear Mountain boats; while I also explain the steps that I have taken to accomplish my do-it-yourself project on you-yube. I have spent nearly a decade preparing to do this by reading e-mails from this group, as well as reading three books:
            >
            > Canoecraft: by Ted Moores,
            >
            > Strip Built Canoe: by Randy Folsom and
            >
            > Building Strip-Planked Boats by Nick Schade
            >
            > Trying to obtain a better advantage as I demonstrate and also explain to the you-tube viewer what I am doing at the same time. I really found Randy Folsom's book the best one of all three to help me understand lofting. I had struggled learning how to use a table of offsets to loft my patterns. That is why I bought full size pans. I think I am ready to demonstrate lofting in a video on you-tube.
            >
            > I have decided to use 80% Select Western Red Cedar and 20% mixture of Ash and White Cedar and African Mahogany to build this canoe and subscribe myself to a deliberate and artful approach to building my first wood strip canoe. I truly appreciate the members in this group who have shared their experience and wisdom and can only hope that my efforts pay respect to this craft and honor those who have figured out how to build boats from wooden strips.
            >
            > One area that I have not really sharpened wits about is Epoxy choices.
            >
            > I have bought 20 yards of 60 inch wide 6 ounce fabric from West systems, but I am not so sure that West systems Epoxy is a better choice than System Three's Silver Tip epoxy.
            >
            > Does anybody care to share their experience?
            >
            > Thanks, Blake
            >
          • woodjointer
            Thanks to all who replied. My main concern about the difference is because West systems states theirs hardens with a slightly yellow hue and System 3 states
            Message 5 of 12 , May 20, 2012
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              Thanks to all who replied. My main concern about the difference is because West systems states theirs hardens with a slightly yellow hue and System 3 states theirs is clear when it cures. Now I am almost certain that a slight yellow hue would be nearly impossible to see, but OTOH I want the wooden strips to be displayed in full color.

              I anticipate this project is going to take six to eight months to do, but if anybody is interested in looking at my you tube channel to see previous videos I have posted on woodworking, simply point your browser here:

              http://www.youtube.com/vikingsquid

              There is nothing on there now about wood strip canoes except a paragraph that promises a video series in the future. I have not posted a video in nearly two years, so the ones there are not new. I made a short series about backyard wood shops and a couple videos about making a garden bench. Also a silly video about trivial nonsense and some videos from the South Tube gathering that took place in Marrietta about four years ago.

              I think I am going to use the system 3 epoxy simply because I prefer the plastic jugs over metal cans that tend to rust quickly in South Georgia humidity. Over the years I have lost uncountable amounts of paint thinner, laminate glue thinner and cleaner and mineral spirits as well as lacquer thinner and paint and stains because the cans rust and ruin the product inside.

              I welcome anybody here to participate in my you tube venture by way of video response to critique, correct, or else reiterate a point or perhaps expound on a topic I did not fully cover. I want this series to be as helpful as can be to further spark interest in this craft. I already know a group of folks who are looking forward to seeing how this is done.

              Blake
            • Gary Jackson
              The only thing you may want to look in to is whether or not the sizing in the fabric is compatible between the epoxies. Gary From:
              Message 6 of 12 , May 21, 2012
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                The only thing you may want to look in to is whether or not the sizing in the fabric is compatible between the epoxies.

                Gary

                From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Scott
                Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 2:15 PM
                To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Epoxy choices



                I'm not positive that there is an enormous difference between one or the
                other epoxies. My sense is that they all work fine.

                Corky Scott

                Sent from my iPad

                On May 19, 2012, at 4:51 PM, woodjointer <troll4vikings@...<mailto:troll4vikings%40gmail.com>> wrote:

                I am about to embark on a project that will culminate in me jointly
                building a Chestnut Prospector from a set of plans from Bear Mountain
                boats; while I also explain the steps that I have taken to accomplish my
                do-it-yourself project on you-yube. I have spent nearly a decade preparing
                to do this by reading e-mails from this group, as well as reading three
                books:

                Canoecraft: by Ted Moores,

                Strip Built Canoe: by Randy Folsom and

                Building Strip-Planked Boats by Nick Schade

                Trying to obtain a better advantage as I demonstrate and also explain to
                the you-tube viewer what I am doing at the same time. I really found Randy
                Folsom's book the best one of all three to help me understand lofting. I
                had struggled learning how to use a table of offsets to loft my patterns.
                That is why I bought full size pans. I think I am ready to demonstrate
                lofting in a video on you-tube.

                I have decided to use 80% Select Western Red Cedar and 20% mixture of Ash
                and White Cedar and African Mahogany to build this canoe and subscribe
                myself to a deliberate and artful approach to building my first wood strip
                canoe. I truly appreciate the members in this group who have shared their
                experience and wisdom and can only hope that my efforts pay respect to this
                craft and honor those who have figured out how to build boats from wooden
                strips.

                One area that I have not really sharpened wits about is Epoxy choices.

                I have bought 20 yards of 60 inch wide 6 ounce fabric from West systems,
                but I am not so sure that West systems Epoxy is a better choice than System
                Three's Silver Tip epoxy.

                Does anybody care to share their experience?

                Thanks, Blake

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • woodjointer
                I am not really sure what you are referring to, but I could just call the folks at System 3 and tell them that I bought 6 ounce fabric that is made by (or for)
                Message 7 of 12 , May 21, 2012
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                  I am not really sure what you are referring to, but I could just call the folks at System 3 and tell them that I bought 6 ounce fabric that is made by (or for) West Systems. When I bought the box online from Boaters land dot com; I do not recall if I was made aware of the manufacturer at purchase, but I was fully aware of what I was buying and how much was in the box. I bought it from this web page because they had the best price listed. I know I looked at at least five other web pages.

                  Northwoods Canoe Company has the best price I have found for silicon bronze carriage bolts at 110 dollars for (100) 4 inch bolts with washers and nuts; fully threaded.

                  Even though I had already ordered what I need from CC Fasteners; I had to buy more from Northwoods simply because the price was so irresistible

                  Chesapeake Bay Light Craft has the best price I have found for epoxy.

                  I also looked at Bear Mountain Boats, West Marine and several others who popped up in my google search strings, but mostly for naught.

                  Does this group have a listing of suppliers who have the stuff? If not, why not? Seems we could all use a good point toward where the goods are.

                  Just sayin, Blake



                  --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Gary Jackson <gjackson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The only thing you may want to look in to is whether or not the sizing in the fabric is compatible between the epoxies.
                  >
                  > Gary
                  >
                • Gary Jackson
                  Hopefully they shipped the fabric rolled and not folded. It can be difficult dealing with folded fabric when it comes time to apply epoxy. As for the sizing;
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 21, 2012
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                    Hopefully they shipped the fabric rolled and not folded. It can be difficult dealing with folded fabric when it comes time to apply epoxy.

                    As for the sizing; if the fabric was ordered to be used with epoxy resin it really shouldn't be a problem. If they shipped fabric that was intended for polyester resin, then you may have issues.

                    Gary

                    From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of woodjointer
                    Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 3:13 PM
                    To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Epoxy choices



                    I am not really sure what you are referring to, but I could just call the folks at System 3 and tell them that I bought 6 ounce fabric that is made by (or for) West Systems. When I bought the box online from Boaters land dot com; I do not recall if I was made aware of the manufacturer at purchase, but I was fully aware of what I was buying and how much was in the box. I bought it from this web page because they had the best price listed. I know I looked at at least five other web pages.

                    Northwoods Canoe Company has the best price I have found for silicon bronze carriage bolts at 110 dollars for (100) 4 inch bolts with washers and nuts; fully threaded.

                    Even though I had already ordered what I need from CC Fasteners; I had to buy more from Northwoods simply because the price was so irresistible

                    Chesapeake Bay Light Craft has the best price I have found for epoxy.

                    I also looked at Bear Mountain Boats, West Marine and several others who popped up in my google search strings, but mostly for naught.

                    Does this group have a listing of suppliers who have the stuff? If not, why not? Seems we could all use a good point toward where the goods are.

                    Just sayin, Blake

                    --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cedarstripcanoes%40yahoogroups.com>, Gary Jackson <gjackson@...<mailto:gjackson@...>> wrote:
                    >
                    > The only thing you may want to look in to is whether or not the sizing in the fabric is compatible between the epoxies.
                    >
                    > Gary
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • woodjointer
                    The box is five feet long and the fabric is on a roll inside a vacuum packed plastic bag. It does not appear to be folded. The end box label reads West
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 21, 2012
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                      The box is five feet long and the fabric is on a roll inside a vacuum packed plastic bag. It does not appear to be folded.

                      The end box label reads "West System 742 Glass Fabric" and the paragraph tells that it is intended to be used in applications where wood grain will be clearly visible, and when applied correctly the fabric will completely disappear.

                      The side box reads "from Gougeon Brothers INC, West System Brand Reinforcing Fabric"

                      This was being advertised as fabric for use on wood strip canoes.

                      thanks for your helpful advice
                      Blake

                      --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Gary Jackson <gjackson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hopefully they shipped the fabric rolled and not folded. It can be difficult dealing with folded fabric when it comes time to apply epoxy.
                      >
                      > As for the sizing; if the fabric was ordered to be used with epoxy resin it really shouldn't be a problem. If they shipped fabric that was intended for polyester resin, then you may have issues.
                      >
                    • Jim Marco
                      There are lots of epoxies out there that work for various aspects of building a boat. I generally use MAS epoxy with slow hardener. Mostly because I work alone
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 28, 2012
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                        There are lots of epoxies out there that work for various aspects of building a boat. I generally use MAS epoxy with slow hardener. Mostly because I work alone and don't have a lot of time doing a full hull covering. I also use thinner 3.2oz satin weave cloth for the last few boats. I no longer use 6oz, except at the stems (inner and outer) where a bit of extra strength against abrasion is needed.

                        One of the great things about MAS epoxies is the very thin coats it lets me use with no extra troweling needed. Of course you always need to do some. Because it is thinner than others (System 3, West or Northwest Canoes), but still a marine epoxy, penetrating the satin weave fine glass is a problem. Thinner epoxy wets out easier and allows air bubbles to escape. (After mixing I add a small amount of acetone to thin it, for the wet-out and glass applications...around 10% or a bit more after it starts setting. It slows setting.)

                        Color is another problem. West is defiantly blue-ish. It lays up good leaving an amber color. As does System 3. The stuff from North Canoe is less amber than West. MAS is very clear, leaving the boat lighter...not amber.

                        West is *much* thicker than MAS, and somewhat thicker than System 3 and North. In flatter areas, this is a problem and often requires a couple trowelings. Especially on the inner hull, 2-3 trowelings are needed separated by about a minute of "flow" time. On vertical sides, this is somewhat of an advantage. Soo, both work, depending on the area of the canoe.

                        West generally sets faster than the others. This is good and bad, again. For large full hull layups, it is difficult to do without stepping the process. On smaller areas it is very much an advantage.

                        Soo, I don't use any one particular brand, and, I don't worry about coating one over another (once it has set.) I try to use the different epoxies as needed for cure times and thickness of coating. Even the 5 minute epoxy has its place for attaching stem pieces or skid plates. Color tends to be a minor issue, though *if* I look I can tell a slight color difference between the stems and hull body. Anyway, all good marine grade epoxies will bond to other epoxies. Not as well as a full chemical bond, but well enough.

                        For wood work, I mix a batch and let it start to thicken. Then add about twice the amount of acetone as epoxy and cover all the wood work. This lets the epoxy penetrate a bit deeper into the wood.

                        For removing scratches on the hull after a hard trip, I do about the same, except the mix is about 50/50 epoxy/acetone. This covers the worst of the scratches and rebonds an lose material in the scratches and eliminates the worst of the scratch. THEN I use 400# carbide paper to sand these areas smooth before recoating the boat hull again. This is often a yearly chore, though.

                        I would suggest you avoid polyester or other non-marine grade epoxies. Many will NOT bond to the marine grade epoxy used on the hulls of commercial boats, or vinyl boats for that matter. It can also absorb a certain amount of moisture. This can also cause expansion and contraction issues with the boat. Vinyl boats/kayaks call for special epoxies for repairs. On some, Bondo works, on others it does not. Use caution when choosing stuff, generally nothing will be permanent except a "melted in" repair... Iff you use poly epoxy, nothing sticks too well after that. Though it works fairly well for SOF boats, depending on the fabric chosen.

                        My thoughts only . . .
                        jdm
                        James D. Marco
                        302 Mary Lane
                        Ithaca, NY 14850
                        607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)
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