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RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Prospector bow/stem shape question

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  • Jim Marco
    Yeah, there is a certain amount of spring back with all wood and forms. This is one of the reasons that it is still more of an art than a scientific method.
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 31 10:47 AM
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      Yeah, there is a certain amount of spring back with all wood and forms. This is one of the reasons that it is still more of an art than a scientific method. Especially with the first boat, it is debatable if the plans are correct. Even then there are differences in plans and overall design constraints between each builder. Generally a recurve will stay in the lower hull, once the hull is complete with gunnels set to the designed width, though spring back from 3/8" will probably be around 1/16-1/4" depending exactly where on the boat. The bow and stern are relatively stable, though.

      I built some larger boats, in the 16' range, but the past four or five years have settled into smaller solo boats because it is not always possible to get a partner to head out with me. (I have kept the Minnesota II as one of the best purchased boats I ever paddled with an experienced paddler in the bow. But, it is nearly impossible to handle alone. . .well, difficult, anyway.) Plans are never that exact, it seems. Whether the recurve is a mistake or not? Well, use your best judgment. Like I say, it could be a design characteristic for flat water (slightly easier paddling.) Do you want it? Depends. I prefer shorter hulls because my shop is short, a very practical reason. I *can* fit 16' in there, barely. But 12'6-13'6 is a heck of a lot easier to build in *my* shop. I am not that heavy, soo between my pack, body and any other gear, I plan on a 240# payload for a week or two at a time. I am comfortable with three foot waves and larger swells provided there is no storm. I can handle class II rapids OK. I don't plan to take my strippers down class III, unless they are very short and I have a clear run. I prefer high length to width ratio hulls, even at 12'6". I prefer sharp keelless construction. I don't worry about stability overly much because I sit close to the bottom. Especially with a front keel, this can affect the overall curvature of the stems. A blunt keel (say a 1"x3/4" laminated keel) will be much different than a overlapped strip (keelless). Somewhere that inch *will* show up between the stations.

      One of the great strengths of building a canoe is the total design freedom. This is also one of the great problems for a first time builder. You are not quite sure what you want. Nor, quite sure how to achieve the things you want. . .hah, hey...many times you cannot. As you are seeing, stems and the final finished design are more of a moving target. Will you be using skid plates? How Thick? What Size? How thick will the epoxy be in this area? Can you lay a 6" piece of fiberglass around a 1/8" complex curve? How many layers on the stems? Did you allow enough to make up for the length? It gets problematical with all the details, so I usually don't bother figuring the exact length. If I do, I ignore the 1/4" skid plate. This will ALL effect the final entry into the water, and the positive/negative curvature of the hull in the stem area.

      I would suggest simply following the plans as close as possible. Check the notes for any keel. This should tell you what the designer was thinking. Following what he was thinking will tell you what to do. Often, you *must* build the boat to follow his thoughts. Reading his thoughts, through the design and plans, is to understand them...understand them enough to know that you can make a 3/8" change without hurting things. Or, leave it as is. It is OK, whatever you decide. Don't get too tied up in details, rather always think of the completed boat in your mind. Your design criteria will be different from mine or his. Make it YOUR boat!
      My thoughts only . . .
      jdm
      James D. Marco
      302 Mary Lane
      Ithaca, NY 14850
      607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)

      From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
      Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 9:51 AM
      To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Prospector bow/stem shape question



      Randall,
      I'm finishing up a canoe with similar features, it looks good. The biggest problem I have had with it is keeping the planking pressed against the form. (I use a stapleless method) I've had to redo the bow a couple of times as the hull was not symmetrical. Once I got it right and I removed the canoe from the frame I lost some of the re-curve, and again the symmetry. With some clamps and outside forms I can restore things. I've been thinking about how to fix this.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Randall Leard
      Jim, Thanks for the note, I appreciate your insight and sharing your experience. I m figuring out that there s more discretion than the literature would
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 3, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Jim,

        Thanks for the note, I appreciate your insight and sharing your experience. I'm figuring out that there's more discretion than the literature would suggest. The books speaks in terms of 1/64" tolerance, which is a bit much to worry about...not to suggest we shouldn't get as close as possible, ..but like the old farmers say...there's a difference between scratching your ass and tearing it all to hell. I did in fact get an email from Ted, he stated that the boat in edition 1 of the book, had a re-curve bow, however when people took the boats of the mold, it popped out, so it sounds like the plans were adjusted for the 2nd edition of the book. I have both books and reading them can cause considerable angst, the plans are just different enough to make you stop what you�re doing and seek clarity.

        However, I will have all the station forms on the strongback this week, it looks good so far, hopefully it will fair out nicely.

        All the best, Randall




        LiveStrong





        To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
        From: jdm27@...
        Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:47:32 +0000
        Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Prospector bow/stem shape question






        Yeah, there is a certain amount of spring back with all wood and forms. This is one of the reasons that it is still more of an art than a scientific method. Especially with the first boat, it is debatable if the plans are correct. Even then there are differences in plans and overall design constraints between each builder. Generally a recurve will stay in the lower hull, once the hull is complete with gunnels set to the designed width, though spring back from 3/8" will probably be around 1/16-1/4" depending exactly where on the boat. The bow and stern are relatively stable, though.

        I built some larger boats, in the 16' range, but the past four or five years have settled into smaller solo boats because it is not always possible to get a partner to head out with me. (I have kept the Minnesota II as one of the best purchased boats I ever paddled with an experienced paddler in the bow. But, it is nearly impossible to handle alone. . .well, difficult, anyway.) Plans are never that exact, it seems. Whether the recurve is a mistake or not? Well, use your best judgment. Like I say, it could be a design characteristic for flat water (slightly easier paddling.) Do you want it? Depends. I prefer shorter hulls because my shop is short, a very practical reason. I *can* fit 16' in there, barely. But 12'6-13'6 is a heck of a lot easier to build in *my* shop. I am not that heavy, soo between my pack, body and any other gear, I plan on a 240# payload for a week or two at a time. I am comfortable with three foot waves and larger swells provided there is no storm. I can handle class II rapids OK. I don't plan to take my strippers down class III, unless they are very short and I have a clear run. I prefer high length to width ratio hulls, even at 12'6". I prefer sharp keelless construction. I don't worry about stability overly much because I sit close to the bottom. Especially with a front keel, this can affect the overall curvature of the stems. A blunt keel (say a 1"x3/4" laminated keel) will be much different than a overlapped strip (keelless). Somewhere that inch *will* show up between the stations.

        One of the great strengths of building a canoe is the total design freedom. This is also one of the great problems for a first time builder. You are not quite sure what you want. Nor, quite sure how to achieve the things you want. . .hah, hey...many times you cannot. As you are seeing, stems and the final finished design are more of a moving target. Will you be using skid plates? How Thick? What Size? How thick will the epoxy be in this area? Can you lay a 6" piece of fiberglass around a 1/8" complex curve? How many layers on the stems? Did you allow enough to make up for the length? It gets problematical with all the details, so I usually don't bother figuring the exact length. If I do, I ignore the 1/4" skid plate. This will ALL effect the final entry into the water, and the positive/negative curvature of the hull in the stem area.

        I would suggest simply following the plans as close as possible. Check the notes for any keel. This should tell you what the designer was thinking. Following what he was thinking will tell you what to do. Often, you *must* build the boat to follow his thoughts. Reading his thoughts, through the design and plans, is to understand them...understand them enough to know that you can make a 3/8" change without hurting things. Or, leave it as is. It is OK, whatever you decide. Don't get too tied up in details, rather always think of the completed boat in your mind. Your design criteria will be different from mine or his. Make it YOUR boat!
        My thoughts only . . .
        jdm
        James D. Marco
        302 Mary Lane
        Ithaca, NY 14850
        607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)

        From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
        Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 9:51 AM
        To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Prospector bow/stem shape question

        Randall,
        I'm finishing up a canoe with similar features, it looks good. The biggest problem I have had with it is keeping the planking pressed against the form. (I use a stapleless method) I've had to redo the bow a couple of times as the hull was not symmetrical. Once I got it right and I removed the canoe from the frame I lost some of the re-curve, and again the symmetry. With some clamps and outside forms I can restore things. I've been thinking about how to fix this.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Marco
        Randall, Typical, even the author of a published and well known book is not quite sure of a design even though he is talking precision execution. Actually,
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 3, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Randall,
          Typical, even the author of a published and well known book is not quite sure of a design even though he is talking precision execution. Actually, that *is* two separate animals...
          Yeah, the overall design is pretty loose no matter what boat you are looking at. Most builders won't say "Yes, it is the Prospector I built exactly from plans..." More often it is "It is based on the Prospector from...." Everybody adds their own personal touches. I don't think I have ever built two identical boats. More like well "John has lots of experience, and can handle a little extra length and less width." It all comes out in the wash, and you will certainly be proud of your boat. Enjoy your build!
          My thoughts only . . .
          jdm
          James D. Marco
          302 Mary Lane
          Ithaca, NY 14850
          607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > Randall Leard
          > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 11:09 AM
          > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Prospector
          > bow/stem shape question
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Jim,
          >
          > Thanks for the note, I appreciate your insight and
          > sharing your experience. I'm figuring out that there's
          > more discretion than the literature would suggest. The
          > books speaks in terms of 1/64" tolerance, which is a
          > bit much to worry about...not to suggest we shouldn't
          > get as close as possible, ..but like the old farmers
          > say...there's a difference between scratching your ass
          > and tearing it all to hell. I did in fact get an email
          > from Ted, he stated that the boat in edition 1 of the
          > book, had a re-curve bow, however when people took the
          > boats of the mold, it popped out, so it sounds like the
          > plans were adjusted for the 2nd edition of the book. I
          > have both books and reading them can cause considerable
          > angst, the plans are just different enough to make you
          > stop what you're doing and seek clarity.
          >
          > However, I will have all the station forms on the
          > strongback this week, it looks good so far, hopefully
          > it will fair out nicely.
          >
          > All the best, Randall
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > LiveStrong
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          > From: jdm27@...
          > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:47:32 +0000
          > Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Prospector
          > bow/stem shape question
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yeah, there is a certain amount of spring back with all
          > wood and forms. This is one of the reasons that it is
          > still more of an art than a scientific method.
          > Especially with the first boat, it is debatable if the
          > plans are correct. Even then there are differences in
          > plans and overall design constraints between each
          > builder. Generally a recurve will stay in the lower
          > hull, once the hull is complete with gunnels set to the
          > designed width, though spring back from 3/8" will
          > probably be around 1/16-1/4" depending exactly where on
          > the boat. The bow and stern are relatively stable,
          > though.
          >
          > I built some larger boats, in the 16' range, but the
          > past four or five years have settled into smaller solo
          > boats because it is not always possible to get a
          > partner to head out with me. (I have kept the Minnesota
          > II as one of the best purchased boats I ever paddled
          > with an experienced paddler in the bow. But, it is
          > nearly impossible to handle alone. . .well, difficult,
          > anyway.) Plans are never that exact, it seems. Whether
          > the recurve is a mistake or not? Well, use your best
          > judgment. Like I say, it could be a design
          > characteristic for flat water (slightly easier
          > paddling.) Do you want it? Depends. I prefer shorter
          > hulls because my shop is short, a very practical
          > reason. I *can* fit 16' in there, barely. But 12'6-13'6
          > is a heck of a lot easier to build in *my* shop. I am
          > not that heavy, soo between my pack, body and any other
          > gear, I plan on a 240# payload for a week or two at a
          > time. I am comfortable with three foot waves and larger
          > swells provided there is no storm. I can handle class
          > II rapids OK. I don't plan to take my strippers down
          > class III, unless they are very short and I have a
          > clear run. I prefer high length to width ratio hulls,
          > even at 12'6". I prefer sharp keelless construction. I
          > don't worry about stability overly much because I sit
          > close to the bottom. Especially with a front keel, this
          > can affect the overall curvature of the stems. A blunt
          > keel (say a 1"x3/4" laminated keel) will be much
          > different than a overlapped strip (keelless). Somewhere
          > that inch *will* show up between the stations.
          >
          > One of the great strengths of building a canoe is the
          > total design freedom. This is also one of the great
          > problems for a first time builder. You are not quite
          > sure what you want. Nor, quite sure how to achieve the
          > things you want. . .hah, hey...many times you cannot.
          > As you are seeing, stems and the final finished design
          > are more of a moving target. Will you be using skid
          > plates? How Thick? What Size? How thick will the epoxy
          > be in this area? Can you lay a 6" piece of fiberglass
          > around a 1/8" complex curve? How many layers on the
          > stems? Did you allow enough to make up for the length?
          > It gets problematical with all the details, so I
          > usually don't bother figuring the exact length. If I
          > do, I ignore the 1/4" skid plate. This will ALL effect
          > the final entry into the water, and the
          > positive/negative curvature of the hull in the stem
          > area.
          >
          > I would suggest simply following the plans as close as
          > possible. Check the notes for any keel. This should
          > tell you what the designer was thinking. Following what
          > he was thinking will tell you what to do. Often, you
          > *must* build the boat to follow his thoughts. Reading
          > his thoughts, through the design and plans, is to
          > understand them...understand them enough to know that
          > you can make a 3/8" change without hurting things. Or,
          > leave it as is. It is OK, whatever you decide. Don't
          > get too tied up in details, rather always think of the
          > completed boat in your mind. Your design criteria will
          > be different from mine or his. Make it YOUR boat!
          > My thoughts only . . .
          > jdm
          > James D. Marco
          > 302 Mary Lane
          > Ithaca, NY 14850
          > 607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)
          >
          > From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > Mike
          > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 9:51 AM
          > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Prospector bow/stem
          > shape question
          >
          > Randall,
          > I'm finishing up a canoe with similar features, it
          > looks good. The biggest problem I have had with it is
          > keeping the planking pressed against the form. (I use a
          > stapleless method) I've had to redo the bow a couple of
          > times as the hull was not symmetrical. Once I got it
          > right and I removed the canoe from the frame I lost
          > some of the re-curve, and again the symmetry. With some
          > clamps and outside forms I can restore things. I've
          > been thinking about how to fix this.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
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