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Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Glassing the inside hull

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  • Anthony Spezio
    No photo here. Arkansas Tony ... From: galeria Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Glassing the inside hull To:
    Message 1 of 14 , May 30, 2011
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      No photo here.
      Arkansas Tony

      --- On Mon, 5/30/11, galeria <galeria@...> wrote:

      From: galeria <galeria@...>
      Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Glassing the inside hull
      To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 7:44 AM







       









      Hi James, thanks for your reply.... and please don´t mind all my english mistakes. Writing in portuguese won´t help as well, right? :)



      I don´t think that weight is a main problem with the overlaps. Few extra grams on a 5cm overlap won´t hurt anybody....



      In true, I believe that working with 2 or 3 loose parts is more difficult than with a single long one...but that, as everything else, is just a personal preference. We work with what works for us, right? :)



      The unit (OZ/sq inch) is a bit weird for me, but I´m sure we all work around the same weight/area cloth. In metric - I use 200g/sq meter cloth with an extra football shape on the outside bottom too.



      I build 3 personal designs with 15, 16 and 17 feet; they are all intended for tripping (short/medium and long term). I recently started a true solo design based on 6 different projects from famous designers from US and Canada. My idea is to cross the data from all 6 projects and try to find where they are similar and where they differ....and why!! :) Hope I don´t end with a horrible useless Frankestein!!! :)



      Not sure if I can post pictures here, but here is one...



      ----- Original Message -----

      From: James D. Marco

      To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 7:54 AM

      Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Glassing the inside hull



      TonyBR,

      Sure, it's possible to do the inner hull in a single piece. It's a lot more fussy.

      And, all the stretching and pulling around the stems eventually translates back

      into the rest of the cloth making it close to twice the density of what you started

      with in places and close to half the density in others. Piecing greatly minimizes

      this.

      You could argue that the overlap between a couple sheets is actually

      heavier than a single sheet. Probably picking up 5-6oz in cloth and extra epoxy

      alone. This is *IFF* you avoid the puddling. So, from the weight standpoint, I do

      try to keep the number of pieces down. As does Kurt, I am sure. You make a

      good point about a single piece on the inside. And working the cloth heavily to

      get it to conform to the hull.

      I generally use a lighter cloth (3.20oz crowfoot) on my boats. The Nimble

      Weed series are UL solo trippers. The smallest is 12'6" with three layers on the

      bottom and weighs 22lb total (including yoke and spraydecks.) The stems inside

      are 12" x 18" pieces of 6oz cloth. The hull body is two pieces of 3.2oz cloth. The

      Outside was about the same, except I managed to get a single sheet over it and

      a single sheet over the foot ball. (Repairs after ~500mi of mixed rivers and lakes,

      including some class II and some short class III white water was another layer

      over the foot ball, hence from 21lb to 22lb. Here is the source:

      http://www.fiberglasswarehouse.com/ClothPage.php?Nav=Fiberglass Products&Category=Fiberglass Cloth



      Kurt's Merlin, while not UL, is on the light weight side at about 44lb. As light as

      most commercial kayaks. I believe he used 6oz cloth on his, but the entire

      process was similar to mine. The Merlin's are some nice solo boats.

      Anyway, I am glad you presented your methode for doing the inside. It is always

      nice to have a few techniques in the trick bag!

      Thanks!

      jdm



      At 08:03 PM 5/29/2011, you wrote:

      >Hi Kurt.

      >

      >I didn´t mean any disrespect over the finish of your canoes.... sorry if it sounded like that in any way. What I can say is that a glassing made with one full length of cloth will not have any sort of "refractive line" to show, or will not need any extra sanding to eliminate little steps that naturally results from the overlaping. Working with a full length piece of cloth sure asks for more attention and care while conforming it to the hull, but it´s not all that difficult.

      >

      >As I work with full length glass, kevlar and carbon cloths on all my composite and wooden canoes, stretching the material over and in the molds/hulls is an everyday job. All I can say is that it´s possible and not all that difficult. Just spend a few more minutes to stretch it with your hands, pull here and there, stretch again and again....etc etc.

      >

      >Oh, here is a tip from my shop:

      >

      >1) lay the full length cloth over the turned hull (outside). mark center of the hull with a colour pen on the cloth, close to sheer line

      >2) cut the cloth following the sheer line + 2 or 3cm

      >3) with help from someone, lift the cloth, turn back the hull ("mouth up") and set the cloth in with care. Align and fix the centers (cloth/hull)

      >4) start working from center to ends and up. wear cotton gloves to make it smoother...... :)

      >

      >TonyBR

      >

      >

      >

      > ----- Original Message -----

      > From: Kurt Maurer

      > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com

      > Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 11:33 AM

      > Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Glassing the inside hull

      >

      >

      >

      > > You get a (much) better finish without the cloth overlaps....

      >

      > "Much"? If you ever met my Merlin, I seriously doubt you would notice them.

      >

      > > The most common mistake I see on this phase is trying to put more

      > resin than needed.....

      >

      > Now there's something I couldn't agree with more. Seems like at least

      > half of the homemade boats I see are loaded with excess epoxy that does

      > nothing but add excess weight. My boats finish out well under forty

      > pounds, and it ain't done by skimping on fiberglass, or by starving the

      > cloth. It is done by using only the amount of epoxy necessary to make

      > fiberglass "work as advertised", and hide the weave where applicable.

      >

      > --

      > Cheers,

      > Kurt Maurer

      > League City, Texas

      > www.sawdustfactory.net

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >----------------------------------------------------------

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      > Verificado por AVG - www.avgbrasil.com.br

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      >

      >

      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      >

      >

      >

      >------------------------------------

      >

      >Yahoo! Groups Links

      >

      >

      >

      James Marco,

      302 Mary Lane,

      Ithaca, NY 14850

      607-273-9132



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Kurt Maurer
      ... 44lb. As light as ... AHEM!!!! And so I come flouncing in like a highly indignant haughty little lady who s weight is being spoken about in public, lol. My
      Message 2 of 14 , May 30, 2011
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        > Kurt's Merlin, while not UL, is on the light weight side at about
        44lb. As light as
        > most commercial kayaks. I believe he used 6oz cloth......

        AHEM!!!!

        And so I come flouncing in like a highly indignant haughty little lady
        who's weight is being spoken about in public, lol. My Merlin weighed in
        at 33 lbs on the button when launched, and today weighs almost 34 lbs,
        four years and a few refinish & repair sessions later. I used 4 oz plain
        weave e-glass inside and out, with 6 oz plain weave e-glass doublers on
        the football, with the ends truncated. Right about it not being ultra
        lightweight, my Wenonah Advantage and J-201 in ULKevlar layup are
        sub-thirty. But it was built to be my fishing boat, and it performs that
        function most perfectly (and so does the Advantage).

        My two 18' x 21" Outer Island sea kayaks came in at 36 lbs and 30.5 lbs.
        The first one had a straightforward 6 oz plain weave e-glass inside and
        out with 3.2 oz satin weave on the deck exterior, the second a somewhat
        involved layup using 4 oz s-glass, 3.2 satin weave e-glass, and bits of
        carbon fiber and Kevlar, full details of which are on my web site, URL
        listed below. Trying to stay as light as possible while maintaining full
        strength and features is my idea of of a good time, and I do the same
        with everything I build, including large aperture astronomical
        telescopes. Guess that's what happens when you get your start flying
        model airplanes.

        Tony, no offense taken. sounds like you and I have similar experience
        levels....? Where in Brazil are you (is it a tropical paradise)??

        Everybody Else: there is no wrong way or right way .... just my way and
        your way. I'm here to compare notes and "pay forward" some experience,
        not enter a contest. I've got my opinions, alright, but I swear I'm
        >trying< to be halfway agreeable about it! My mantra is "do what works
        best for you" (even if I may secretly think my way will work best for
        you, lol).

        --
        Cheers,
        Kurt Maurer
        League City, Texas
        www.sawdustfactory.net
      • galeria
        Hi Kurt, greetings from BR. Well, there are some tropical paradises around indeed.... :) But I live quite close to hell: a 17 million 3rd world city called
        Message 3 of 14 , May 30, 2011
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          Hi Kurt, greetings from BR. Well, there are some tropical paradises around indeed.... :) But I live quite close to hell: a 17 million 3rd world city called São Paulo!!! hahahahaahah Just imagine the traffic at 6pm!!! :(

          You can see some of my canoe work at www.companhiadecanoagem.com.br There are many pictures of our trips too. Just keep klicking on the links in weird portuguese and you will find some :)

          As we use to play here about how to di stuff... "It´s not that you are wrong....you´re just not right!!!" hahahahaah

          See you around

          TonyBR




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Kurt Maurer
          To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 11:08 AM
          Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Glassing the inside hull



          > Kurt's Merlin, while not UL, is on the light weight side at about
          44lb. As light as
          > most commercial kayaks. I believe he used 6oz cloth......

          AHEM!!!!

          And so I come flouncing in like a highly indignant haughty little lady
          who's weight is being spoken about in public, lol. My Merlin weighed in
          at 33 lbs on the button when launched, and today weighs almost 34 lbs,
          four years and a few refinish & repair sessions later. I used 4 oz plain
          weave e-glass inside and out, with 6 oz plain weave e-glass doublers on
          the football, with the ends truncated. Right about it not being ultra
          lightweight, my Wenonah Advantage and J-201 in ULKevlar layup are
          sub-thirty. But it was built to be my fishing boat, and it performs that
          function most perfectly (and so does the Advantage).

          My two 18' x 21" Outer Island sea kayaks came in at 36 lbs and 30.5 lbs.
          The first one had a straightforward 6 oz plain weave e-glass inside and
          out with 3.2 oz satin weave on the deck exterior, the second a somewhat
          involved layup using 4 oz s-glass, 3.2 satin weave e-glass, and bits of
          carbon fiber and Kevlar, full details of which are on my web site, URL
          listed below. Trying to stay as light as possible while maintaining full
          strength and features is my idea of of a good time, and I do the same
          with everything I build, including large aperture astronomical
          telescopes. Guess that's what happens when you get your start flying
          model airplanes.

          Tony, no offense taken. sounds like you and I have similar experience
          levels....? Where in Brazil are you (is it a tropical paradise)??

          Everybody Else: there is no wrong way or right way .... just my way and
          your way. I'm here to compare notes and "pay forward" some experience,
          not enter a contest. I've got my opinions, alright, but I swear I'm
          >trying< to be halfway agreeable about it! My mantra is "do what works
          best for you" (even if I may secretly think my way will work best for
          you, lol).

          --
          Cheers,
          Kurt Maurer
          League City, Texas
          www.sawdustfactory.net




          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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        • James D. Marco
          Sorry, Kurt! I thought I saw 44lb somewhere, I was wrong. jdm ... James Marco, 302 Mary Lane, Ithaca, NY 14850 607-273-9132 [Non-text portions of this message
          Message 4 of 14 , May 30, 2011
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            Sorry, Kurt! I thought I saw 44lb somewhere, I was wrong.
            jdm
            At 10:08 AM 5/30/2011, you wrote:
            > > Kurt's Merlin, while not UL, is on the light weight side at about
            >44lb. As light as
            > > most commercial kayaks. I believe he used 6oz cloth......
            >
            >AHEM!!!!
            >
            >And so I come flouncing in like a highly indignant haughty little lady
            >who's weight is being spoken about in public, lol. My Merlin weighed in
            >at 33 lbs on the button when launched, and today weighs almost 34 lbs,
            >four years and a few refinish & repair sessions later. I used 4 oz plain
            >weave e-glass inside and out, with 6 oz plain weave e-glass doublers on
            >the football, with the ends truncated. Right about it not being ultra
            >lightweight, my Wenonah Advantage and J-201 in ULKevlar layup are
            >sub-thirty. But it was built to be my fishing boat, and it performs that
            >function most perfectly (and so does the Advantage).
            >
            >My two 18' x 21" Outer Island sea kayaks came in at 36 lbs and 30.5 lbs.
            >The first one had a straightforward 6 oz plain weave e-glass inside and
            >out with 3.2 oz satin weave on the deck exterior, the second a somewhat
            >involved layup using 4 oz s-glass, 3.2 satin weave e-glass, and bits of
            >carbon fiber and Kevlar, full details of which are on my web site, URL
            >listed below. Trying to stay as light as possible while maintaining full
            >strength and features is my idea of of a good time, and I do the same
            >with everything I build, including large aperture astronomical
            >telescopes. Guess that's what happens when you get your start flying
            >model airplanes.
            >
            >Tony, no offense taken. sounds like you and I have similar experience
            >levels....? Where in Brazil are you (is it a tropical paradise)??
            >
            >Everybody Else: there is no wrong way or right way .... just my way and
            >your way. I'm here to compare notes and "pay forward" some experience,
            >not enter a contest. I've got my opinions, alright, but I swear I'm
            > >trying< to be halfway agreeable about it! My mantra is "do what works
            >best for you" (even if I may secretly think my way will work best for
            >you, lol).
            >
            >--
            >Cheers,
            >Kurt Maurer
            >League City, Texas
            >www.sawdustfactory.net
            >
            >
            >
            >------------------------------------
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            James Marco,
            302 Mary Lane,
            Ithaca, NY 14850
            607-273-9132


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jack Collingsworth
            Much thanks for all the info: it was a real confidence booster! I applied the seal coat Monday and plan on working with some thickened epoxy today filling
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 1, 2011
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              Much thanks for all the info: it was a real confidence booster! I applied the seal coat Monday and plan on working with some thickened epoxy today filling voids and the stems. I've been worried about the glass for months, but now I can't wait to "get it on!" I hope to take this Freedom 15 to the BWCA in September...


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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