Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

What is your favorite epoxy glue for laminating stems?

Expand Messages
  • Bret
    I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don t like the fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems. Has
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems. Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a stiff brush?
    • James D. Marco
      Hi Bret, System Three is OK. There are actually several kinds for use on boats. I am guessing you are using regular stuff. The Clear Coat is much thinner
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 2, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Bret,
        System Three is OK. There are actually several kinds for use on boats.
        I am guessing you are using regular stuff. The "Clear Coat" is much thinner
        than the regular (low viscosity for wet out.) It also does not "dry" quite as hard
        and brittle...it takes a full 24hours to set well enough to sand it. I would
        suggest this is what you are after for wet out, but not really for laminates.
        MAS is about the same and works well for wet out.
        For stems and other wood laminations, you actually want thick. A
        small amount of micro-balloon filler, too. Otherwise the epoxy can run out
        along the joint before it sets, leaving a glue starved joint and a weak piece.
        You can also use wood flour as a filler. Epoxy likes a relatively thick glue
        line compared with white or yellow glue. Laminating stems can be painful
        because of the pressure (used to bend the strips) can build up enough
        to squeeze too much out. A filler is needed to pick up the pressure and
        still leave an adequate glue line. Even thick epoxy, like west or system 3,
        is not good enough all alone for this task. You really want the filler to insure
        a consistent glue line. West works well for laminating.
        If it looks like you are having trouble spreading it, add a small amount
        of acetone to your mix. In a plastic camp cup, about 1/3 full of epoxy mix,
        add about 2tbs of microballons or 2tbs of wood flour. If it seems too thick,
        add a spoon full of acetone. (Just to give you an idea of how much to add.)
        Try not to thin it too much. Again, you will have problems with delamination
        by putting on too thin of a layer. It should look a lot like thick molasses, if
        you used sanding dust.) You can add a bit more as you work and the
        epoxy hardens. Basically, if you can apply it with a paint brush, it is
        probably too thin to be used for laminating. A glue brush will work, though.
        Tim quoted a study that indicated some short chain formation
        in the epoxy by adding acetone. I have done this for 4 boats and not seen
        any structural problems. One is about 10 years old, now. Soo, I don't
        think the loss of strength is a serious problem. I do this a LOT on other
        boats (maybe 20 or so kevlar, fiberglass,) as a scratch fix. You can thin it
        out to less viscosity than water, the epoxy will still harden (I use this as a
        fresh gel coat on my kevlar boat every couple years to "fix" light
        scratches.)
        My thoughts only . . .
        jdm
        At 10:01 PM 11/1/2010, you wrote:
        >I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems. Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a stiff brush?
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        James Marco,
        302 Mary Lane,
        Ithaca, NY 14850
        607-273-9132
      • Charles & Dana Scott
        Hi Brett, I d like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together to prevent
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 2, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
          there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
          to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
          there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
          as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.



          Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
          of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
          microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
          Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
          before. It worked fine.



          You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
          the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.



          Corky Scott



          _____

          From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret
          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:02 PM
          To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
          laminating stems?





          I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
          fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
          Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
          stiff brush?





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bret Smith
          Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 2, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the fiberglass?

            Bret
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Charles & Dana Scott
            To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 12:19 PM
            Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for laminating stems?



            Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
            there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
            to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
            there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
            as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.

            Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
            of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
            microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
            Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
            before. It worked fine.

            You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
            the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.

            Corky Scott

            _____

            From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret
            Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:02 PM
            To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
            laminating stems?

            I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
            fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
            Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
            stiff brush?

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James D. Marco
            Hi Bret, Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear and tear) than lake
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 2, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Bret,
              Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you
              would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear
              and tear) than lake cruising. You never really need a stem, otherwise
              ...'cept if you like the way it looks. Corky will no doubt add in his own
              comments...he knows more about boat building than me, I'm just a
              retired carpenter/computer scientist.
              There are a lot of ways to build canoes. None of them wrong.
              The old style keels and stems were hold overs from old style frame
              and skin type, later clinker built, then lapstrake canoes. Canvas was
              easier to waterproof than cedar, so, we saw a lot of these around
              1890-1940 or so. There are still a lot of people out there that build
              this way. Or,the older frame and skin, for that matter. They all have
              advantages and nostalgic proponents.
              Getting back to cedar strips/fiberglass canoes, modern
              monocoque engineering (developed mostly in aircraft in the 50's)
              shows that the entire skin is stronger than most old style canoes,
              and it uses no framing. Wear, however, is about the only time you
              want a heavier stem. Repeated hits on a rock will eventually break
              any fiberglass/epoxy (it is brittle). And it abrades fairly easily on
              sand, soo, this is why my assumption of your paddling use.
              (Of course, you could use graphite or kevlar cloth, too...same
              technique...)
              I do mostly lake paddling, with some white water, river running
              thrown in. I don't use separate stem or a keel. Rather, I rely on hull
              design and heavier coatings (skid plates) to take up the wear and
              occasional tango with a rock.
              On my first boat I did put both. I could stand on it when it was
              upside down. A bit of overkill, I am afraid.
              Anyway, getting back to wear and rock damage, you will find
              that a cracked epoxy skin will leak water. Soo, if you use white glue
              it will weaken the laminate. Even yellow glue will weaken. Epoxy,
              used as a glue, has pretty much been the standard, but the past few
              years. Newer glues, I have lost track of...just too many out there to
              know which one to pick. Even then a 20 year creep test still takes 20
              years to be sure.
              Anyway, what were you talking about if not laminating stems?
              I'm afraid I missed the point of your question...old age, I guess...
              Maybe someone else has a better thought...
              My apologies...
              jdm

              At 01:28 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote:
              >Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the fiberglass?
              >
              >Bret
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Charles & Dana Scott
              > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 12:19 PM
              > Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for laminating stems?
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
              > there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
              > to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
              > there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
              > as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.
              >
              > Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
              > of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
              > microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
              > Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
              > before. It worked fine.
              >
              > You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
              > the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.
              >
              > Corky Scott
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret
              > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:02 PM
              > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
              > laminating stems?
              >
              > I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
              > fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
              > Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
              > stiff brush?
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              James Marco,
              302 Mary Lane,
              Ithaca, NY 14850
              607-273-9132
            • Bret
              James, Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 2, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                James,

                Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is two-parts that are mixed in equal amounts. The result is a strong, waterproof bond that dries to an amber hue.

                My question was what others have used for laminations. I have heard that others were simply using West Systems 105 resin and the hardener for laminations. While I like using the West epoxy for the fiberglass work I was not sure if the 105 resin would provide the structural strength necessary for stem laminations. I appreciate your emphasis on using a thickening agent such as wood dust in order to keep from starving the joint.

                What I enjoy most about this forum is the ability to hear alternative views and different ways of doing things.

                Bret

                --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, "James D. Marco" <jdm27@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Bret,
                > Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you
                > would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear
                > and tear) than lake cruising. You never really need a stem, otherwise
                > ...'cept if you like the way it looks. Corky will no doubt add in his own
                > comments...he knows more about boat building than me, I'm just a
                > retired carpenter/computer scientist.
                > There are a lot of ways to build canoes. None of them wrong.
                > The old style keels and stems were hold overs from old style frame
                > and skin type, later clinker built, then lapstrake canoes. Canvas was
                > easier to waterproof than cedar, so, we saw a lot of these around
                > 1890-1940 or so. There are still a lot of people out there that build
                > this way. Or,the older frame and skin, for that matter. They all have
                > advantages and nostalgic proponents.
                > Getting back to cedar strips/fiberglass canoes, modern
                > monocoque engineering (developed mostly in aircraft in the 50's)
                > shows that the entire skin is stronger than most old style canoes,
                > and it uses no framing. Wear, however, is about the only time you
                > want a heavier stem. Repeated hits on a rock will eventually break
                > any fiberglass/epoxy (it is brittle). And it abrades fairly easily on
                > sand, soo, this is why my assumption of your paddling use.
                > (Of course, you could use graphite or kevlar cloth, too...same
                > technique...)
                > I do mostly lake paddling, with some white water, river running
                > thrown in. I don't use separate stem or a keel. Rather, I rely on hull
                > design and heavier coatings (skid plates) to take up the wear and
                > occasional tango with a rock.
                > On my first boat I did put both. I could stand on it when it was
                > upside down. A bit of overkill, I am afraid.
                > Anyway, getting back to wear and rock damage, you will find
                > that a cracked epoxy skin will leak water. Soo, if you use white glue
                > it will weaken the laminate. Even yellow glue will weaken. Epoxy,
                > used as a glue, has pretty much been the standard, but the past few
                > years. Newer glues, I have lost track of...just too many out there to
                > know which one to pick. Even then a 20 year creep test still takes 20
                > years to be sure.
                > Anyway, what were you talking about if not laminating stems?
                > I'm afraid I missed the point of your question...old age, I guess...
                > Maybe someone else has a better thought...
                > My apologies...
                > jdm
                >
                > At 01:28 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote:
                > >Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the fiberglass?
                > >
                > >Bret
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: Charles & Dana Scott
                > > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 12:19 PM
                > > Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for laminating stems?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
                > > there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
                > > to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
                > > there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
                > > as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.
                > >
                > > Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
                > > of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
                > > microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
                > > Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
                > > before. It worked fine.
                > >
                > > You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
                > > the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.
                > >
                > > Corky Scott
                > >
                > > _____
                > >
                > > From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret
                > > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:02 PM
                > > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
                > > laminating stems?
                > >
                > > I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
                > > fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
                > > Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
                > > stiff brush?
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >------------------------------------
                > >
                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > James Marco,
                > 302 Mary Lane,
                > Ithaca, NY 14850
                > 607-273-9132
                >
              • Tim
                Bret- If you go on the manufacturer s websites they will give you the physical properties of all their various products- I think the 105 resin will give a high
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 2, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Bret-

                  If you go on the manufacturer's websites they will give you the physical properties of all their various products- I think the 105 resin will give a high percentage of the strength of T-88, and will be considerably stronger than the wood you are laminating. Some of the super-clear epoxies may have worse numbers, but the general-purpose pretty clear ones are close to the best structurals.

                  The keys in fillers are choosing one that is as strong as the wood you are laminating, and not putting in too much filler so that the epoxy still has adhesion. Watch out for fillers that are intended only for fairing (they will be lightweight and sand easily), I think cab-o-sil is one of these. If you use wood flour, have it be a wood as strong as the one you're laminating- like ash laminations shouldn't have cedar flour, use ash. If you err when mixing in fillers, err on the side of putting in too little so it keeps being sticky.

                  Tim Greiner

                  --- Bret wrote:
                  >
                  > James,
                  >
                  > Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is two-parts that are mixed in equal amounts. The result is a strong, waterproof bond that dries to an amber hue.
                  >
                  > My question was what others have used for laminations. I have heard that others were simply using West Systems 105 resin and the hardener for laminations. While I like using the West epoxy for the fiberglass work I was not sure if the 105 resin would provide the structural strength necessary for stem laminations. I appreciate your emphasis on using a thickening agent such as wood dust in order to keep from starving the joint.
                  >
                  > What I enjoy most about this forum is the ability to hear alternative views and different ways of doing things.
                  >
                  > Bret
                  >
                  > --- James D. Marco wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Bret,
                  > > Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you
                  > > would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear
                  > > and tear) than lake cruising. You never really need a stem, otherwise
                  > > ...'cept if you like the way it looks. Corky will no doubt add in his own
                  > > comments...he knows more about boat building than me, I'm just a
                  > > retired carpenter/computer scientist.
                  > > There are a lot of ways to build canoes. None of them wrong.
                  > > The old style keels and stems were hold overs from old style frame
                  > > and skin type, later clinker built, then lapstrake canoes. Canvas was
                  > > easier to waterproof than cedar, so, we saw a lot of these around
                  > > 1890-1940 or so. There are still a lot of people out there that build
                  > > this way. Or,the older frame and skin, for that matter. They all have
                  > > advantages and nostalgic proponents.
                  > > Getting back to cedar strips/fiberglass canoes, modern
                  > > monocoque engineering (developed mostly in aircraft in the 50's)
                  > > shows that the entire skin is stronger than most old style canoes,
                  > > and it uses no framing. Wear, however, is about the only time you
                  > > want a heavier stem. Repeated hits on a rock will eventually break
                  > > any fiberglass/epoxy (it is brittle). And it abrades fairly easily on
                  > > sand, soo, this is why my assumption of your paddling use.
                  > > (Of course, you could use graphite or kevlar cloth, too...same
                  > > technique...)
                  > > I do mostly lake paddling, with some white water, river running
                  > > thrown in. I don't use separate stem or a keel. Rather, I rely on hull
                  > > design and heavier coatings (skid plates) to take up the wear and
                  > > occasional tango with a rock.
                  > > On my first boat I did put both. I could stand on it when it was
                  > > upside down. A bit of overkill, I am afraid.
                  > > Anyway, getting back to wear and rock damage, you will find
                  > > that a cracked epoxy skin will leak water. Soo, if you use white glue
                  > > it will weaken the laminate. Even yellow glue will weaken. Epoxy,
                  > > used as a glue, has pretty much been the standard, but the past few
                  > > years. Newer glues, I have lost track of...just too many out there to
                  > > know which one to pick. Even then a 20 year creep test still takes 20
                  > > years to be sure.
                  > > Anyway, what were you talking about if not laminating stems?
                  > > I'm afraid I missed the point of your question...old age, I guess...
                  > > Maybe someone else has a better thought...
                  > > My apologies...
                  > > jdm
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
                  > > > there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
                  > > > to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
                  > > > there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
                  > > > as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.
                  > > >
                  > > > Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
                  > > > of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
                  > > > microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
                  > > > Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
                  > > > before. It worked fine.
                  > > >
                  > > > You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
                  > > > the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.
                  > > >
                  > > > Corky Scott
                  > >
                • James D. Marco
                  Bret, Oh, I got it right, then. Yeah, for laminations, you can use any good epoxy that you would use for glass. As Tim says, they all exceed the strength of
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 3, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Bret,
                    Oh, I got it right, then. Yeah, for laminations, you can use any
                    good epoxy that you would use for glass. As Tim says, they all exceed
                    the strength of the wood if done correctly.
                    Once you exceed the strength of the wood, any failures will be
                    the result of the wood itself, ripped out fibers, cracked layers, etc. It
                    doesn't make any real sense to use super strong adhesives for this
                    because the wood will break long before the glue lets loose.
                    Kind'a like edge doweling. In the days of hot hide glue, it made
                    sense. Today, it doesn't. Most laminates will break somewhere else,
                    NOT at the glue line. This presupposes a good joint. Over clamping,
                    ie, clamping too tight, can squeeze glue out of the joint. Releasing the
                    clamps after the glue sets will allow it to spring back, on a microscopic
                    level. This leaves a "soft" joint...glue starved and weak. Epoxy depends
                    on bonding with itself and into the microscopic pores of the wood for
                    it's strength. Soo, this condition is very bad for epoxy. Squeezing it out
                    will cause it to fail. Using a filler, as Tim says, of equal strength of the
                    wood, will force the pieces to stay spread apart the distance needed
                    for the epoxy to work it's magic. It also gives you some friction for
                    clamping so the pieces don't slide out of position.
                    The upside to using epoxy is that any gaps can be filled with
                    epoxy. Unlike a wood glue, it sticks to itself. It does not depend on
                    pores for bonding, if you do it within 24 hours...the "chemical" bond.
                    Building an occasional paddle or two, I have been using regular
                    glass epoxy for a number of years. As a carpenter, some woods
                    almost require it. Rosewood is one. Repairing a lifted laminate on
                    a table top, it was the only way I could get it down. High density, oily
                    woods in general will bond better with epoxy.
                    That said, on my first boat, I used yellow glue on the stems and
                    keel, reinforced with some joinery. That works fine, but you have to keep
                    it sealed. Water will soften it. The newer glues are supposed to be water
                    proof...verdict is still out, in my book. 'Corse, I built that boat over 30
                    years ago. I know different, today.
                    Marc, a member here, does a lot of paddle work, he might be
                    able to supply additional help with laminations. Here is his business
                    address.
                    http://dogpaddlecanoe.com/
                    He does some really high quality work.
                    My thoughts only . . .
                    jdm
                    At 09:15 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote:
                    >James,
                    >
                    >Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is two-parts that are mixed in equal amounts. The result is a strong, waterproof bond that dries to an amber hue.
                    >
                    >My question was what others have used for laminations. I have heard that others were simply using West Systems 105 resin and the hardener for laminations. While I like using the West epoxy for the fiberglass work I was not sure if the 105 resin would provide the structural strength necessary for stem laminations. I appreciate your emphasis on using a thickening agent such as wood dust in order to keep from starving the joint.
                    >
                    >What I enjoy most about this forum is the ability to hear alternative views and different ways of doing things.
                    >
                    >Bret
                    >
                    >--- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, "James D. Marco" <jdm27@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Hi Bret,
                    >> Well, yes. I was assuming, that with any stem on a boat, you
                    >> would be doing more river running (a lot of rocks and other wear
                    >> and tear) than lake cruising. You never really need a stem, otherwise
                    >> ...'cept if you like the way it looks. Corky will no doubt add in his own
                    >> comments...he knows more about boat building than me, I'm just a
                    >> retired carpenter/computer scientist.
                    >> There are a lot of ways to build canoes. None of them wrong.
                    >> The old style keels and stems were hold overs from old style frame
                    >> and skin type, later clinker built, then lapstrake canoes. Canvas was
                    >> easier to waterproof than cedar, so, we saw a lot of these around
                    >> 1890-1940 or so. There are still a lot of people out there that build
                    >> this way. Or,the older frame and skin, for that matter. They all have
                    >> advantages and nostalgic proponents.
                    >> Getting back to cedar strips/fiberglass canoes, modern
                    >> monocoque engineering (developed mostly in aircraft in the 50's)
                    >> shows that the entire skin is stronger than most old style canoes,
                    >> and it uses no framing. Wear, however, is about the only time you
                    >> want a heavier stem. Repeated hits on a rock will eventually break
                    >> any fiberglass/epoxy (it is brittle). And it abrades fairly easily on
                    >> sand, soo, this is why my assumption of your paddling use.
                    >> (Of course, you could use graphite or kevlar cloth, too...same
                    >> technique...)
                    >> I do mostly lake paddling, with some white water, river running
                    >> thrown in. I don't use separate stem or a keel. Rather, I rely on hull
                    >> design and heavier coatings (skid plates) to take up the wear and
                    >> occasional tango with a rock.
                    >> On my first boat I did put both. I could stand on it when it was
                    >> upside down. A bit of overkill, I am afraid.
                    >> Anyway, getting back to wear and rock damage, you will find
                    >> that a cracked epoxy skin will leak water. Soo, if you use white glue
                    >> it will weaken the laminate. Even yellow glue will weaken. Epoxy,
                    >> used as a glue, has pretty much been the standard, but the past few
                    >> years. Newer glues, I have lost track of...just too many out there to
                    >> know which one to pick. Even then a 20 year creep test still takes 20
                    >> years to be sure.
                    >> Anyway, what were you talking about if not laminating stems?
                    >> I'm afraid I missed the point of your question...old age, I guess...
                    >> Maybe someone else has a better thought...
                    >> My apologies...
                    >> jdm
                    >>
                    >> At 01:28 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote:
                    >> >Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for wetting the fiberglass?
                    >> >
                    >> >Bret
                    >> > ----- Original Message -----
                    >> > From: Charles & Dana Scott
                    >> > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                    >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 12:19 PM
                    >> > Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for laminating stems?
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > Hi Brett, I'd like to second what JDM said. When you laminate the stems
                    >> > there is necessarily a lot of pressure exerted to keep the strips together
                    >> > to prevent gaposis. If you do not mix in a thickener of some sort, and
                    >> > there are many to choose from, you could end up with an epoxy starved stem
                    >> > as ordinary non thickened epoxy will squeeze out.
                    >> >
                    >> > Normally, the manuals recommend mixing enough thickener to create a mixture
                    >> > of peanut butter consistency. Thickeners can be cabosil, flox,
                    >> > microsphere's or even powdered sawdust. The latest epoxy kit I got from
                    >> > Newfound Woodworks had a plastic can of thickener that I'd never heard of
                    >> > before. It worked fine.
                    >> >
                    >> > You don't have to limit yourself to using a brush, a mixing stick will smear
                    >> > the thickened epoxy along the strip just fine.
                    >> >
                    >> > Corky Scott
                    >> >
                    >> > _____
                    >> >
                    >> > From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                    >> > [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret
                    >> > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:02 PM
                    >> > To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                    >> > Subject: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
                    >> > laminating stems?
                    >> >
                    >> > I have had good success with System Three two-part epoxy but don't like the
                    >> > fact that it is fairly thick and difficult to apply when laminating stems.
                    >> > Has anyone found a good epoxy glue that, when mixed, can be applied with a
                    >> > stiff brush?
                    >> >
                    >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >------------------------------------
                    >> >
                    >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> James Marco,
                    >> 302 Mary Lane,
                    >> Ithaca, NY 14850
                    >> 607-273-9132
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    James Marco,
                    302 Mary Lane,
                    Ithaca, NY 14850
                    607-273-9132
                  • Charles & Dana Scott
                    Yes, any epoxy or fiberglass resin of any type can be thickened with various substances. Corky Scott _____ From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 3, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes, any epoxy or fiberglass resin of any type can be thickened with various
                      substances.



                      Corky Scott



                      _____

                      From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret Smith
                      Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 1:29 PM
                      To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
                      laminating stems?





                      Am I understanding that you are using epoxy resin/hardener (i.e., West
                      Systems, MAS, System Three) as an epoxy glue? The same epoxy resin used for
                      wetting the fiberglass?

                      Bret





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Charles & Dana Scott
                      Oh, T-88. That is a structural epoxy, often used in wooden aircraft construction. You are correct it is pretty thick when mixed, but it can still bleed out
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 3, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Oh, T-88. That is a structural epoxy, often used in wooden aircraft
                        construction. You are correct it is pretty thick when mixed, but it can
                        still bleed out of joints if they are compressed. Typically most joints
                        when using T-88 are not compressed too much, or too much epoxy squeezes out.
                        I've used T-88 for laminating stems and still mixed in a thickener to make
                        it even more thick than it is normally.



                        But the type of epoxy used for wetting out fiberglass is much more thin that
                        T-88, hence the need for a lot of thickener, so that it does not run.



                        Corky Scott



                        _____

                        From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bret
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 9:15 PM
                        To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] What is your favorite epoxy glue for
                        laminating stems?





                        James,

                        Maybe I confused the issue. Up until now, I have been using a product by
                        System Three called T-88 for laminations. This is a structural epoxy that is
                        two-parts that are mixed in equal amounts. The result is a strong,
                        waterproof bond that dries to an amber hue.

                        My question was what others have used for laminations. I have heard that
                        others were simply using West Systems 105 resin and the hardener for
                        laminations. While I like using the West epoxy for the fiberglass work I was
                        not sure if the 105 resin would provide the structural strength necessary
                        for stem laminations. I appreciate your emphasis on using a thickening agent
                        such as wood dust in order to keep from starving the joint.

                        What I enjoy most about this forum is the ability to hear alternative views
                        and different ways of doing things.

                        Bret





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James D. Marco
                        Hi all, I finally got some planing done on the cedar for Nimble Weed II. Baby sitting has really put a serious crimp in my work time. Down to 1 day per week
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 4, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi all,
                          I finally got some planing done on the cedar for Nimble Weed II.
                          Baby sitting has really put a serious crimp in my work time. Down to 1
                          day per week out in the shop...
                          Anyway, the shop is very small, 16'x16', so I had a lot of clean up
                          to do. Rather than toss out the scraps I rebuilt my band saw to get it
                          ready for cutting the strips, adding a larger table with provisions for
                          extensions. Between getting the shop cleaned up and the rebuild, it has
                          taken 3 weeks...WOW.
                          I cut the rough 1x12-14' down to 1x6's. The bandsaw cuts out
                          about 1/16 of wood (actually a hair less...like 7/128" or a thin pencil
                          line less.) Soo, I am planning 4 strips per inch at 3/16. This is a slight
                          increase over the first Nimble Weed (5/32.) But, because of the
                          increased overall rounding, I am planning to cut the edges off the strips
                          more during fairing.
                          I planed the rough cedar siding 1x6 down to a bit more than 3/4"
                          ...25/32" to clean it and remove any cupping before slicing strips and
                          gunnels.
                          That's about where I am... as I baby sit another day. Hopefully,
                          I can finalize the station layouts today...
                          My thoughts only . . .
                          jdm


                          By my calculations, I will need 56 strips to
                          cover the hull.



                          James Marco,
                          302 Mary Lane,
                          Ithaca, NY 14850
                          607-273-9132
                        • James D. Marco
                          Hi All, This past weekend I got about 12 hours in on the boat. What I accomplished: Band saw set up, ripped strips, solid cedar gunnels, handles, thwarts, seat
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 10, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi All,
                            This past weekend I got about 12 hours in on the boat.
                            What I accomplished:
                            Band saw set up, ripped strips, solid cedar gunnels, handles, thwarts,
                            seat and yoke rough cut. (60 strips were cut, 3 had a small check in them.)
                            Tear down saw and start form.
                            New stems (longer boat) by 1-1/2"
                            New stations at #1, #5 and # 6
                            strong back cleaned and laid out, stems, #1 and #2 stations installed

                            Upon building the strongback, I re-evaluated Nimble Weed I.
                            Some minor changes:
                            I lengthened the stems somewhat and rounded the nose so there was
                            a 45 degree angle as it meets the water line: 3-1/2". The 3 degree bow angle
                            of the first boat soaked up considerable damage on the NFCT from submerged
                            rocks (many) and three blow downs. By adding in rounded bow I hope to
                            minimize the effects of the impacts. The down side is I loose hull length at the waterline by about 2". Since the boat was lengthened by 18", this was an
                            acceptable trade off. It also shortened the stem slightly. On Nimble Weed I,
                            this area was very fine and could stand to be slightly shortened.
                            Station #3 was pushed back from 12" to 13" spacing. This is where hull
                            transitions from the stem to the center hull, proper. This reduces the water entry
                            of the stem sections yielding a bit finer entry while maintaining the hull length
                            at the water line. Between the rounded stem, and the increased rocker (from a
                            4" waterline to 3-1/2 waterline at the bow) the reduction of width here maintains
                            about the same (slightly less:~2%) frontal stem entry to the water at the same
                            distance as the original Nimble Weed I. Being short boats, the Nimble Weed's
                            tend to be somewhat bulbous(for buoyancy) in this area to meet the center hull
                            area. I didn't want any more, and the slight decrease is a good thing. This is
                            where the maximum wake will(and does on NW I) occur. At high speeds,
                            a wake develops in this area (4-5 knots,) bleeding energy. It will happen,
                            again.
                            Station #4 was also pushed back from 12" to 13" to complete the
                            transition from stem to center hull. Between #3 and #4 is where the boat
                            transitions from parting water (pushing it aside/pushing it down) to a more or
                            less even flow around the hull curves. All rocker stops by the time the water gets
                            here. The parting friction of the water stops here (~95% of it anyway.) The
                            concern here is a smooth flow of water, ie reduction of eddies/vortices.
                            #5 and #6 are the center hull sections. The largest cross section of
                            the hull shows up here. (NW I is about 26-3/4" wide at #6, NW II is 25-1/2"
                            between the two #6 stations.) Both of these sections were recut as new
                            stations for NW II. A flatter, oval hull was used with sharper chines. Also, the
                            flare angle was changed in the center from 3 degrees(NW I) to about 5
                            degrees of flare for NW II. This increases the hull water friction slightly, but
                            the overall 10" increase in center length should increase efficiency, about
                            canceling each other. The somewhat flatter oval bottom will increase overall
                            initial stability but decrease secondary stability. The additional flare should
                            offset the decrease in secondary stability somewhat. NW I had a LOT of
                            secondary stability. The small decrease in this (flatter hull, harder chines)
                            is easily acceptable. Since these changes were more than 1/4" compared
                            to NW I's stations, they were re cut. They were also reduced from NW I's
                            wider design beam of 26-3/4" to 25-1/2" to maintain the same strength
                            characteristics of the boat. I also increased the center shear from 10" to
                            10-1/4" offsetting the buoyancy pushed to the center from adding the rocker.
                            (This boat is once again new, so I am not playing with decreasing
                            the center rocker to stress the outer hull skin. I may do this when lining
                            up the forms, adding some negative rocker in the center. Then, adding
                            a few layers of tape to #5 and #6 to build these out a bit. Squeezing it
                            back should eliminate the negative center rocker, stressing the outer
                            skin. But, on thinking about this Saturday while working on the stems,
                            I think it will compress the wood, and not achieve the amount of stress
                            on the outside skin I need to reach pre stressed strengths. A good case
                            for using high density strips like oak or walnut on the boat. Still a little
                            may help. I may yet try it.)
                            In summary, NW II should have very similar characteristics to NW I.
                            Longer and as good or better maneuverability. More stable for casual use.
                            OK, efficiency for wilderness tripping, lake paddling. Not a good boat for
                            Class II rapids but manageable. A slightly increased payload of 260
                            pounds over the 240 pounds for NW I, despite the increased rocker.
                            A double paddle design for my daughter.
                            I have a dentist appointment this morning, soo, no baby sitting today.
                            I hope to get the form built and lined up. Maybe a few strips added after
                            checking the new stations if all goes well?
                            My thoughts only . . .
                            jdm

                            James Marco,
                            302 Mary Lane,
                            Ithaca, NY 14850
                            607-273-9132
                          • James D. Marco
                            Hi All, I ran into a bit of a snag with the boat. The number 4 station does not quite line up properly with #3 (from Nimble Weed I) and #5 (recut for Nimble
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 11, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi All,
                              I ran into a bit of a snag with the boat. The number 4 station does
                              not quite line up properly with #3 (from Nimble Weed I) and #5 (recut for
                              Nimble Weed II.) I have to decide on whether to cut 5 down a little (about
                              1/2") to insure an even lay of the strips or recut #4 larger to compensate.
                              Cutting down #5 will reduce buoyancy slightly (about 8-10 pounds.)
                              Increasing the size of #4 will increase frontal area slightly reducing
                              performance slightly...
                              ???
                              My thoughts only . . .
                              jdm

                              James Marco,
                              302 Mary Lane,
                              Ithaca, NY 14850
                              607-273-9132
                            • James D. Marco
                              Hi All, OK. I decided to recut #4. This will add a little to the buoyancy, not too much (5-6 pounds) but will also increase the frontal area. Since I increased
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 11, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi All,
                                OK. I decided to recut #4. This will add a little to the buoyancy,
                                not too much (5-6 pounds) but will also increase the frontal area.
                                Since I increased the stem length, I can afford the slight performance
                                degradation.
                                My thoughts only . . .
                                jdm
                                At 06:16 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote:
                                >Hi All,
                                > I ran into a bit of a snag with the boat. The number 4 station does
                                >not quite line up properly with #3 (from Nimble Weed I) and #5 (recut for
                                >Nimble Weed II.) I have to decide on whether to cut 5 down a little (about
                                >1/2") to insure an even lay of the strips or recut #4 larger to compensate.
                                >Cutting down #5 will reduce buoyancy slightly (about 8-10 pounds.)
                                >Increasing the size of #4 will increase frontal area slightly reducing
                                >performance slightly...
                                > ???
                                > My thoughts only . . .
                                > jdm
                                >
                                >James Marco,
                                >302 Mary Lane,
                                >Ithaca, NY 14850
                                >607-273-9132
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >------------------------------------
                                >
                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                James Marco,
                                302 Mary Lane,
                                Ithaca, NY 14850
                                607-273-9132
                              • James D. Marco
                                Hi All, Stripping of Nimble Weed II is nearing completion. Again, the tight curves forced a bubble in a couple strips. These were removed. Rather than
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 22, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi All,
                                  Stripping of Nimble Weed II is nearing completion. Again, the
                                  tight curves forced a bubble in a couple strips. These were removed.
                                  Rather than cheaters, I did the majority of the hull bottom from about
                                  a 2" waterline onward, simply following the strips. Slow going, since
                                  I can really only get 2-3 days per week in the shop. I have about 34
                                  hours into stripping, but that also includes laminating the thwarts and
                                  seat back. The removable yoke worked well with the first boat, soo I
                                  am retaining it.
                                  The seat back has more curve and a little more complexity to
                                  it. (Nimble Weed I had a 1-1/2" radius for the seat.) This was laminated
                                  to form 2" over 16" with a shorter 2" flatter section for the center of the
                                  back. I clamped it to a door way and leaned on it a bit...seems much
                                  better. However, the 2" thick laminate is way too thick. It is quite stiff.
                                  I will need to fine this down some. . .probably about 1-1 /4" would have
                                  been better. I didn't figure on the additional strength of the laminate.
                                  The other thwarts were laminated 1" x 13/16". These have a milder
                                  upward radius. About 1" over the 24" of the thwarts length. This will make
                                  the boat harder to load onto a vehicle, but will also add some structure to
                                  the spray decks. Water will roll off to the sides a bit more. The first. boat
                                  would build up a puddle on the front spray deck after about 45 minutes of
                                  paddling. If I can minimize this by changing the thwarts, I will. It will also
                                  make the front thwart/footrest placement a bit too high I am afraid. I may
                                  have to add a couple small blocks for this.
                                  Also, I am planning a seat in this one. I think a 1-1/2" front tapering
                                  back to about 3/4" will keep your butt out of the bilge water. I used a 1 -1/2"
                                  life vest for a seat in Nimble Weed. This worked OK. But I often opened
                                  one wing up to give me a seat back cushion. I will allow for it on this boat.
                                  The taper will make some concession to comfort, while I am at it. I may
                                  use cane for this...light and strong, but, it requires a frame...heavy.
                                  jdm


                                  James Marco,
                                  302 Mary Lane,
                                  Ithaca, NY 14850
                                  607-273-9132
                                • James D. Marco
                                  Hi All, OK. I finished stripping and pulling the staples from the new boat. I also trimmed the stems. That was it. Getting ready for fairing...sharpened my 4
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 23, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi All,
                                    OK. I finished stripping and pulling the staples from the
                                    new boat. I also trimmed the stems. That was it. Getting ready
                                    for fairing...sharpened my 4 block planes and a couple smaller
                                    smoothing planes. I pulled a hook on a couple scrapers, but
                                    they don't work that well on softwood. I knocked the glue off the
                                    laminates (three thwarts, one seat back.)
                                    Has anyone tried to make a seat frame out of scrap
                                    strips from the boat hull? I have had good results with a larger
                                    barn repair, laminating 6 syp 2x10 to make up a broken 8-3/4x9"
                                    beam (tree damage.) I was thinking to plane the strips down to
                                    about an 1/8" thick (carefully, the planer is not real good with
                                    small stuff, but I just sharpened it...) and using 9 layers,
                                    laminating up a seat frame out of cedar. Then using some
                                    nylon web for the seat.
                                    Baby sitting has really cut into my work time. . .well, play
                                    time??
                                    My thoughts only . . .
                                    jdm

                                    James Marco,
                                    302 Mary Lane,
                                    Ithaca, NY 14850
                                    607-273-9132
                                  • James D. Marco
                                    Hi all, I finished fairing and filling. I got a scratch coat of epoxy painted on. Several air bubbles, but these will sand clean. Easier to do it now, because
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 27, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi all,
                                      I finished fairing and filling. I got a scratch coat of epoxy
                                      painted on. Several air bubbles, but these will sand clean. Easier
                                      to do it now, because it is nearly impossible to fill them after the
                                      glass is on. I got the first layer of glass over the stems. Standard
                                      6oz cloth, satin cloth is a bit difficult to wrap around. A 6" strip
                                      should cover the worst of any wear damage to the hull. Coupled
                                      with 1/8" nylon rope skid plates, this should leave the stems in pretty
                                      good shape for a light weight boat.
                                      No work today. The kids will be over.
                                      My thoughts only . . .
                                      jdm

                                      James Marco,
                                      302 Mary Lane,
                                      Ithaca, NY 14850
                                      607-273-9132
                                    • James D. Marco
                                      Hi all, I managed to get a whole day of work on the boat! WOW! Anyway, I got the outer hull sanded clean, tapered the glass on the stems, and washed the boat
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 30, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi all,
                                        I managed to get a whole day of work on the boat! WOW!
                                        Anyway, I got the outer hull sanded clean, tapered the glass on
                                        the stems, and washed the boat off with acetone. Then I put a
                                        layer of 6oz glass on the outer hull. Looks good so far. A couple
                                        trowel marks to clean up, and some sanding will be needed on
                                        the stems. But, I can trim the glass and flip the boat to work on
                                        the inside. I only have enough satin cloth for one layer, so, I
                                        decided to put it on the inside.
                                        I stressed the hull open at each station. Depending on the
                                        station, anywhere between 1/2" and 1-1/2". After I get the inner hull
                                        sanded, I will once again squeeze the boat about 2-3" after applying
                                        the glass. After releasing the clamps, this *should* stress both the
                                        outer and inner skins, resulting in a stiffer, stronger hull. In the past,
                                        an occasional bit of damage has occurred on rocks and downed
                                        trees, etc. I have noticed that the result was often cracked strips.
                                        Assuming that the strips are weaker than the glass, pre-stressing
                                        the skins should also help with overall skin strength. Stiffness, of
                                        course, adds to the efficiency of the boat. A good example of stressed
                                        skin stuff we are so fond of ;-)
                                        Corky mentioned oil canning. I hope to avoid this by seat and
                                        seat back placement. Two ribs will be made as seat supports in
                                        this boat too, since it has a flatter bottom than Nimble Weed I. This
                                        should minimize the effect of oil canning.
                                        My thoughts only . . .
                                        jdm

                                        James Marco,
                                        302 Mary Lane,
                                        Ithaca, NY 14850
                                        607-273-9132
                                      • James D. Marco
                                        Hi all, I managed to get the glass trimmed and the interior sanded. I painted a scratch coat of epoxy on the inside too. The boat picked up the extra width
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 4, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi all,
                                          I managed to get the glass trimmed and the interior sanded.
                                          I painted a scratch coat of epoxy on the inside too.
                                          The boat picked up the extra width from pushing out each station
                                          pretty well. I am reading about 2-1/2" over design spec. After some light
                                          sanding, I will add the stem and inner glass squeezing the boat back.
                                          This part will be easier, too. The stressed skins should result in a stronger
                                          and stiffer boat.
                                          I will also add a couple floatation chambers, bow and stern. These will
                                          cover the mess I make of the inner stems and add some floatation. I have the
                                          triangular shaped pieces leftover from trimming the boat and several 12-14"
                                          pieces of strips leftover. Not exactly ultra-light, but the little extra will help with
                                          safety and help with overall stiffness, besides covering my poor looking inner
                                          stems. (glass covers it, but I KNOW it is there.) Thinking about it, I can taper
                                          the gunnels down, front and rear, offsetting some of the weight. Still hoping
                                          to come in about 24# at 13'6" even with the added weight.
                                          My thoughts only . . .
                                          jdm

                                          James Marco,
                                          302 Mary Lane,
                                          Ithaca, NY 14850
                                          607-273-9132
                                        • James D. Marco
                                          Hi all, OK, I got the interior done, sanded and glassed. I was working on gunnels. The router (of course, I would never do this) splintered the wood a bit and
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 7, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi all,
                                            OK, I got the interior done, sanded and glassed. I was working on
                                            gunnels. The router (of course, I would never do this) splintered the wood
                                            a bit and had to abandon the laminated gunnels...again. Anyway, this was
                                            the answer to bubbling: inner, outer, glue, oak strip, oak strip, glue, outer
                                            and inner. All were lightly clamped together every 8"...no bubbles.
                                            Routing went poorly though. Apparently there was a grain mis-match
                                            between the oak and cedar...it splintered, broke the strip and let the bearing
                                            ride into the wood, ruining one gunnel. Soo, I think this was a fluke, it
                                            happens sometimes even with climb cutting to remove a lot of material,
                                            first. Corse, it could also be that the router bit was not the sharpest it has
                                            ever been. Anyway, I recut the two gunnels after milling the under coves.
                                            Then tapered then from 3/4" to about 1/2" over 6'. I did this on the back
                                            side. I did the same on the inner gunnel, but routed this with a 3/8 under and
                                            1/4" over. After sanding, this should leave a good oval piece. I will also notch
                                            the thwarts/seat-back with the 3/8" route to make a good solid fit, at 3/8"
                                            below the shear. (The thwarts have a rounded arc to them.) Soo, I should be
                                            able to drop a screw from the top of the cove, through the inner gunwale and
                                            into the thwart just fine.
                                            Why all the fuss? Well, in the past, I have found that water can be
                                            turned easier than simply rounding over a 5/8" gunnel. Soo, the 1/2" cove
                                            will deflect water better. Important with a 11" stem shear and a fully loaded
                                            boat. I am not sure if I need both, though. I will still need the spray decks
                                            for when my daughter happens to submerge the stems (heavy waves or
                                            current, for example.) But every little bit of weight helps, too. Drilling for a
                                            3" SS screw, off center because of the cove, will be facilitated by dropping
                                            the thwart 3/8". Just easier when putting things together. Probably being
                                            too fussy to save the 3oz...
                                            My thoughts only . . .
                                            jdm

                                            James Marco,
                                            302 Mary Lane,
                                            Ithaca, NY 14850
                                            607-273-9132
                                          • Charles & Dana Scott
                                            If you can find some lacquer thinner, or acetate and soak the bit in a glass of that, it will allow you to clean off the bit nicely. Just don t breath the
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 7, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              If you can find some lacquer thinner, or acetate and soak the bit in a glass
                                              of that, it will allow you to clean off the bit nicely. Just don't breath
                                              the fumes.



                                              Once it's clean, you can gently file or sand the edge to improve it's
                                              sharpness.



                                              Corky Scott



                                              _____

                                              From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James D. Marco
                                              Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:41 AM
                                              To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Nimble Weed II...continued





                                              Hi all,
                                              OK, I got the interior done, sanded and glassed. I was working on
                                              gunnels. The router (of course, I would never do this) splintered the wood
                                              a bit and had to abandon the laminated gunnels...again. Anyway, this was
                                              the answer to bubbling: inner, outer, glue, oak strip, oak strip, glue,
                                              outer
                                              and inner. All were lightly clamped together every 8"...no bubbles.
                                              Routing went poorly though. Apparently there was a grain mis-match
                                              between the oak and cedar...it splintered, broke the strip and let the
                                              bearing
                                              ride into the wood, ruining one gunnel. Soo, I think this was a fluke, it
                                              happens sometimes even with climb cutting to remove a lot of material,
                                              first. Corse, it could also be that the router bit was not the sharpest it
                                              has
                                              ever been. My thoughts only . . .
                                              jdm

                                              James Marco,
                                              302 Mary Lane,
                                              Ithaca, NY 14850
                                              607-273-9132





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • James D. Marco
                                              Corky, Yeah, I have a gallon of acetone. But the splinters went through most of the cedar, besides breaking the strip. Not really worth salvaging. Thanks for
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 7, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Corky,
                                                Yeah, I have a gallon of acetone. But the splinters went through
                                                most of the cedar, besides breaking the strip. Not really worth salvaging.
                                                Thanks for the thought, though.
                                                jdm
                                                At 03:58 PM 12/7/2010, you wrote:
                                                >If you can find some lacquer thinner, or acetate and soak the bit in a glass
                                                >of that, it will allow you to clean off the bit nicely. Just don't breath
                                                >the fumes.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Once it's clean, you can gently file or sand the edge to improve it's
                                                >sharpness.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Corky Scott

                                                James Marco,
                                                302 Mary Lane,
                                                Ithaca, NY 14850
                                                607-273-9132
                                              • James D. Marco
                                                Hi all, Thanks again, Corky! The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Dec 14, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi all,
                                                  Thanks again, Corky!
                                                  The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold
                                                  Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter weather!)
                                                  Anyway, Feeling a bit better this morning so I thought I would do another
                                                  update.
                                                  Gunnels, inner gunwale and outer gunwale were installed. Planed
                                                  and tapered to match the boat. (About 1/2"x1/2"(stems) to 13/16"x13/16"
                                                  at the center. Screw holes were filled, bow and stern "gaps" were filled.
                                                  Thwarts were laid out, handles were laminated.
                                                  Working on the seat...

                                                  My shop heater blew out and I had to run to get one.
                                                  Anyway, not a lot of work, but some anyway.
                                                  My thoughts only. . .
                                                  jdm



                                                  James Marco,
                                                  302 Mary Lane,
                                                  Ithaca, NY 14850
                                                  607-273-9132
                                                • James D. Marco
                                                  Hi all, All of the wood work on the boat is now done. Sanding is done. Down to painting it...not done. Unfortunately, I have baby sitting duties again. Doesn t
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Dec 22, 2010
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi all,
                                                    All of the wood work on the boat is now done. Sanding is done. Down to painting it...not done.
                                                    Unfortunately, I have baby sitting duties again. Doesn't look like I will be quite done by Christmas... My wife is busy with other things, soo she cannot make the
                                                    spray decks, either. Total work time was 165 hours.
                                                    But, at least I have something to give my daughter...
                                                    Starting plans for the next boat... A lighter version ...

                                                    My thoughts only . . .
                                                    jdm

                                                    At 04:28 AM 12/14/2010, you wrote:
                                                    >Hi all,
                                                    > Thanks again, Corky!
                                                    > The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold
                                                    >Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter weather!)
                                                    >Anyway, Feeling a bit better this morning so I thought I would do another
                                                    >update.
                                                    > Gunnels, inner gunwale and outer gunwale were installed. Planed
                                                    >and tapered to match the boat. (About 1/2"x1/2"(stems) to 13/16"x13/16"
                                                    >at the center. Screw holes were filled, bow and stern "gaps" were filled.
                                                    > Thwarts were laid out, handles were laminated.
                                                    > Working on the seat...
                                                    >
                                                    > My shop heater blew out and I had to run to get one.
                                                    > Anyway, not a lot of work, but some anyway.
                                                    > My thoughts only. . .
                                                    > jdm
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >James Marco,
                                                    >302 Mary Lane,
                                                    >Ithaca, NY 14850
                                                    >607-273-9132
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    James Marco,
                                                    302 Mary Lane,
                                                    Ithaca, NY 14850
                                                    607-273-9132
                                                  • Charles & Dana Scott
                                                    Really? Lighter than the last one? I thought that one was so light you could lift it with one hand. Corky _____ From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Dec 22, 2010
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Really? Lighter than the last one? I thought that one was so light you
                                                      could lift it with one hand.



                                                      Corky



                                                      _____

                                                      From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                                      [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James D. Marco
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:57 AM
                                                      To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Nimble Weed II...continued





                                                      Hi all,
                                                      All of the wood work on the boat is now done. Sanding is done. Down to
                                                      painting it...not done.
                                                      Unfortunately, I have baby sitting duties again. Doesn't look like I will be
                                                      quite done by Christmas... My wife is busy with other things, soo she cannot
                                                      make the
                                                      spray decks, either. Total work time was 165 hours.
                                                      But, at least I have something to give my daughter...
                                                      Starting plans for the next boat... A lighter version ...

                                                      My thoughts only . . .
                                                      jdm

                                                      At 04:28 AM 12/14/2010, you wrote:
                                                      >Hi all,
                                                      > Thanks again, Corky!
                                                      > The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold
                                                      >Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter weather!)
                                                      >Anyway, Feeling a bit better this morning so I thought I would do another
                                                      >update.
                                                      > Gunnels, inner gunwale and outer gunwale were installed. Planed
                                                      >and tapered to match the boat. (About 1/2"x1/2"(stems) to 13/16"x13/16"
                                                      >at the center. Screw holes were filled, bow and stern "gaps" were filled.
                                                      > Thwarts were laid out, handles were laminated.
                                                      > Working on the seat...
                                                      >
                                                      > My shop heater blew out and I had to run to get one.
                                                      > Anyway, not a lot of work, but some anyway.
                                                      > My thoughts only. . .
                                                      > jdm
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >James Marco,
                                                      >302 Mary Lane,
                                                      >Ithaca, NY 14850
                                                      >607-273-9132
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      James Marco,
                                                      302 Mary Lane,
                                                      Ithaca, NY 14850
                                                      607-273-9132





                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • James D. Marco
                                                      Corky, Yeah. Nimble Weed I was pretty light. 21 pounds including spray decks. (Not including paddle and life vest.) Nimble Weed II is a foot larger. It is at
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Dec 22, 2010
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Corky,
                                                        Yeah. Nimble Weed I was pretty light. 21 pounds including spray decks.
                                                        (Not including paddle and life vest.)
                                                        Nimble Weed II is a foot larger. It is at 22 pounds now, but, I have not
                                                        made the spray decks nor completed painting yet. It will finish around 24-25
                                                        pounds when I am done, I am afraid. Heavier than I would like.
                                                        I will make another Nimble Weed II, this time shooting for light weight
                                                        rather than safety. The longer length will better accommodate my wife (who is
                                                        a bit lighter than me, but also more paranoid of the boat.) This time I will get
                                                        the 3.1oz Satin weave cloth for less epoxy weight. Still shooting for the magic
                                                        17#. (The lightest I know of at that length with the same durability.)
                                                        I was thinking I could use the same strips (5/32) as the last build up to
                                                        the bilge. Then drop to 1/16" strips for the side walls. Rather than use the 3.1oz
                                                        glass on the inside, I would get some 2oz, and try that. I had tapered the
                                                        gunnels from 3/4" to 1/2". The next boat will be 3/8x5/8 stock. Anyway, The plan
                                                        is to cut back those things that are well overbuilt.
                                                        The skin stressing seemed to work well. The hull is much stiffer
                                                        than Nimble Weed I, and it is also flatter, less strongly ovaled. This could just
                                                        be a product of the 6oz glass, too. But, Nimble Weed I had two layers on the
                                                        bottom. I did not need two layers on Nimble Weed II. If anything, there is *more*
                                                        glass on NW I. Shooting for 17#. I will see how close I can get. Just thinking
                                                        about it right now....
                                                        jdm






                                                        jdm
                                                        At 02:07 PM 12/22/2010, you wrote:
                                                        >Really? Lighter than the last one? I thought that one was so light you
                                                        >could lift it with one hand.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >Corky
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > _____
                                                        >
                                                        >From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                                        >[mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James D. Marco
                                                        >Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:57 AM
                                                        >To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                                        >Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Nimble Weed II...continued
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >Hi all,
                                                        >All of the wood work on the boat is now done. Sanding is done. Down to
                                                        >painting it...not done.
                                                        >Unfortunately, I have baby sitting duties again. Doesn't look like I will be
                                                        >quite done by Christmas... My wife is busy with other things, soo she cannot
                                                        >make the
                                                        >spray decks, either. Total work time was 165 hours.
                                                        >But, at least I have something to give my daughter...
                                                        >Starting plans for the next boat... A lighter version ...
                                                        >
                                                        >My thoughts only . . .
                                                        >jdm
                                                        >
                                                        >At 04:28 AM 12/14/2010, you wrote:
                                                        >>Hi all,
                                                        >> Thanks again, Corky!
                                                        >> The gunnels were installed on Saturday. I came down with a cold
                                                        >>Saturday night so not much work got done. (I dislike winter weather!)
                                                        >>Anyway, Feeling a bit better this morning so I thought I would do another
                                                        >>update.
                                                        >> Gunnels, inner gunwale and outer gunwale were installed. Planed
                                                        >>and tapered to match the boat. (About 1/2"x1/2"(stems) to 13/16"x13/16"
                                                        >>at the center. Screw holes were filled, bow and stern "gaps" were filled.
                                                        >> Thwarts were laid out, handles were laminated.
                                                        >> Working on the seat...
                                                        >>
                                                        >> My shop heater blew out and I had to run to get one.
                                                        >> Anyway, not a lot of work, but some anyway.
                                                        >> My thoughts only. . .
                                                        >> jdm
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>James Marco,
                                                        >>302 Mary Lane,
                                                        >>Ithaca, NY 14850
                                                        >>607-273-9132
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>------------------------------------
                                                        >>
                                                        >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >James Marco,
                                                        >302 Mary Lane,
                                                        >Ithaca, NY 14850
                                                        >607-273-9132
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >------------------------------------
                                                        >
                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        James Marco,
                                                        302 Mary Lane,
                                                        Ithaca, NY 14850
                                                        607-273-9132
                                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.