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Progress on the Gunwales but also a bit of a disaster

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  • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
    All is not lost, but while milling out the scupper slots in the inside gunwale, which was being created by sizing stock so that once the slots are milled out,
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 3, 2007
      All is not lost, but while milling out the scupper slots in the inside gunwale, which was being created by sizing stock so that once the slots are milled out, the stock can be ripped in half and I'm left with both inner gunwales, the router bit grabbed when I wasn't ready and ripped up the gunwale.

      By the time this happened, I'd done the following: Milled the stock to dimension so that when sliced in half each piece was 3/4 x 3/4. Because the white ash I'd bought was only 12' long, I had to scarf pieces together to come up with the necessary length. That worked out nicely. I used my jig to slice the ends at 10 degrees and then carefully glued them together using the epoxy and colloidal silica. In order to make sure the joints were straight, since I did not have a jig for this work, I clamped a caul on each side of the joint, protecting the cauls from the glue using plastic sheeting. A caul is just a piece, or pieces, of wood applied to stiffen or align such joints. Then I squeezed the joint together with more c-clamps. So the joint was bound at the side, and top and bottom.

      Each gunwale needed either two joints or three depending on whether it was an inner or outer gunwale, the inner gunwale being the shorter of the two lengths.

      Then I milled the holes after adjusting the spacing and cut out the material between using a jig saw. That part went fine.

      The difficulty occured when I used my brand new spiral fluted cutter to mill out the slots so they were uniform and conformed to the size of the milled holes. The first run went fine, I was very cautious and only took off little bits of wood while I got used to how things worked. I'd adjusted the fence so that each pass just took a fraction of an inch, and stopped removing material before I got to the the backside of the holes.

      At this time, I was stopping the router each time I lifted the material to get set for the next slot. I'd position everything, grab firmly on the material and then start the router and make the pass. That, in retrospect was a mistake. When I was ready to mill the last portion off so that the slot and the hole were on the same plane, at least on the one side I was working on, I got reset as usual, and turned the router on. This time, the router bit was actually touching the side of the slot. As it spun up, it bit into the wood and ripped the material out of my hands.

      Before I regained my senses and grabbed the wood lifting it up off the router bit, it had destroyed that slot and chewed right through the wood entirely on one side.

      I turned the router off and stared at the damage in dismay. The entire piece was ruined now. The only saving grace was that it was only three slots in from the end so I could slice it off using my scarfing jig, and glue some more material on. Actually, thinking about it, I could cut out any damaged section and glue in replacement stock but it just seemed easier to do it at the end of the gunwale, it only required one glue joint in this case, not two if the damage had occured in the middle.

      That's what I ended up doing once I'd finished milling the rest of the slots. To avoid this disaster from then on, I left the router running once I'd milled what I wanted and just lifted the work up and off the router bit, then moved the gunwale to the next slot and dropped it down in the spinning bit. If it touched during this process, nothing really bad would happen because it was spinning too fast to grab the wood. It just took off a little.

      I also found that things worked best by reverse motion of the wood. By that I mean moving the wood with the rotation of the bit, rather than the more normal method of going against the bit. When I moved the wood against the rotation of the bit, the wood tended to tear out. Moving it with the rotation of the bit was more stressful, because the bit tended to want to grab and pull, which was scary considering what had happened earlier, but nothing bad happened while I finished the rest of the milling, although several times I felt it really tugging.

      Once one side was done, I flipped the gunwale over and repeated the process on the other side of the slots. When all the slots were widened to the diameter of the holes, I changed bits and used a 3/8" roundover bit to clean everything up. I tried a 1/8" radius and didn't like the results. I tried the 1/4" and thought the 3/8" bit would give me the look I wanted so that's what I ended up using.

      There were no further problems. I learned quickly to keep things moving along or the bit would burn the wood.

      I also set up the gunwale on the router table with three feather boards to round off all four outer edges. I should mention that rounding off the outer edges of the gunwale was what I did before I worked on the slots.

      1. Scarf and glue the pieces together while pieces are oversize.
      2. Plane the stock to proper dimension, which cleans up the glued joints nicely.
      3. Mill the holes for slots.
      4. Round the four outer edges.
      5. Mill the slots so they match the holes.
      6. Round over the inner edges of the slots.
      7. Next is to mill the repair section to match the original and then rip the gunwale in half.

      So as you read this, the damaged section has been cut off and the replacement piece is curing, or is now cured as I assembled and glued it last night. It will be a bit tricky to mill it to match what I already have, but I think it will work out.

      Thankfully, I had that 6 foot section of stock left over or I'd REALLY be moaning.

      Corky Scott
    • NGC704@AOL.COM
      Ever used dip-pens with India ink for artwork or calligraphy? They re a lot like routers, whereas they have a tendency to dribble off a blotch late in the
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
        Ever used dip-pens with India ink for artwork or calligraphy? They're a lot
        like routers, whereas they have a tendency to dribble off a blotch late in
        the game, so as to ruin a maximum amount of work. Argh!

        If it makes you feel any better, I scrapped a set of 95% completed inwales
        and outwales for my Merlin project when a router bit performed a little
        tear-out where a round-over had been the desired result. The good news in such
        cases is that the new set comes out quickly and slickly after a good and proper
        rehearsal session...

        Cheers,
        Kurt Maurer
        League City, Texas




        **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
        products.
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • donald kunsman
        for tear-out prevention try going back wards on the piece of work that your working on, normally you folow the rotation of the bit , and this is good and fine
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
          for tear-out prevention try going back wards on the piece of work that
          your working on, normally you folow the rotation of the bit , and
          this is good and fine but like you said you can ge some tear out at
          the very end, i have found that if you start at the end and travel in
          the opposite direction for about an inch you only problem with be some
          burn that needs some sanding out , ........lol pick one , burn out or
          tear out ....

          --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, NGC704@... wrote:
          >
          > Ever used dip-pens with India ink for artwork or calligraphy?
          They're a lot
          > like routers, whereas they have a tendency to dribble off a blotch
          late in
          > the game, so as to ruin a maximum amount of work. Argh!
          >
          > If it makes you feel any better, I scrapped a set of 95% completed
          inwales
          > and outwales for my Merlin project when a router bit performed a little
          > tear-out where a round-over had been the desired result. The good
          news in such
          > cases is that the new set comes out quickly and slickly after a
          good and proper
          > rehearsal session...
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Kurt Maurer
          > League City, Texas
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's
          hottest
          > products.
          >
          (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • NGC704@AOL.COM
          ... Agreed. In the wild and crazy world of woodworking with routers, going with the rotation, as opposed to against it, is called a climb cut or climbing
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 5, 2007
            > for tear-out prevention try going back wards...
            > ........lol pick one , burn out or
            > tear out ....

            Agreed. In the wild and crazy world of woodworking with routers, going with
            the rotation, as opposed to against it, is called a "climb cut" or "climbing
            cut." Feeding into the rotation is much safer and generally works best; climb
            cuts are harder to control, and therefore something of a safety compromise.
            But as mentioned, it's what to try next when tear-out's a problem.

            The Number One error of router users is failure to take the direction of
            rotation into account. (Close second is trying to accomplish too much stock
            removal in one pass, when a few increasing passes would work much better.)

            Cheers,
            Kurt Maurer
            League City, Texas




            **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
            products.
            (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
            ... climb cuts are harder to control, and therefore something of a safety compromise. But as mentioned, it s what to try next when tear-out s a problem. The
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 5, 2007
              --- You wrote:
              climb cuts are harder to control, and therefore something of a safety compromise.
              But as mentioned, it's what to try next when tear-out's a problem.

              The Number One error of router users is failure to take the direction of
              rotation into account. (Close second is trying to accomplish too much stock
              removal in one pass, when a few increasing passes would work much better.)
              --- end of quote ---

              I can second this. For those who have not used routers, either hand held or bolted into a router table, almost all safety directions admonish that the router, or work, be pushed against the bit's rotation for safety.

              When you push it against the rotation, you have to force the router or work to move against it's will. Lessening pressure simply brings things to a halt.

              But with splinter prone wood, routing in this manner can produce tear outs and splinters that can ruin what you are shaping. By moving the work or router *with* the rotation rather than against it, you will eliminate tear out. But moving in this direction gives the router bit fresh wood to bite into as it's moved and causes it to want to accelerate in that direction. You find yourself needing to hold the router/work back from trying to take off on it's own. If it does, the results are almost ALWAYS bad.

              Kurt is absolutely correct, the more wood you try to take off during "climb cut" pass, the stronger the router will try to pull away from you.

              Corky Scott
            • NGC704@AOL.COM
              It also helps a lot to feed the wood, or push/pull the router, in the direction the grain arises in; the same is true when picking the direction to run a
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 6, 2007
                It also helps a lot to feed the wood, or push/pull the router, in the
                direction the grain "arises" in; the same is true when picking the direction to run
                a hand plane, or feed a power planer or jointer. Feed direction often makes
                all the difference in the world in whether tear-out will be a problem or not.
                Trouble is, I'm not sure how to explain what I mean without an illustration.
                I bet Corky knows what I'm trying to say, maybe he can help me out here...?



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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • rberling@charter.net
                I m sure this sounds amateurish, but all this discussion about routers reinforces my conviction that cutting scuppers with a drill press and a hole saw is
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 6, 2007
                  I'm sure this sounds amateurish, but all this discussion about routers reinforces my conviction that cutting scuppers with a drill press and a hole saw is easier for occasional builders like me who don't even own a router. I like the results and I feel safer with a tool I'm familiar with.

                  I do learn a lot reading these emails and appreciate all your comments. Thanks.
                  -
                  Richard C. Berling
                  Madison WI 53714
                  ---------------------
                  rberling@...
                  608-241-0817

                  ---- NGC704@... wrote:

                  =============
                  It also helps a lot to feed the wood, or push/pull the router, in the
                  direction the grain "arises" in; the same is true when picking the direction to run
                  a hand plane, or feed a power planer or jointer. Feed direction often makes
                  all the difference in the world in whether tear-out will be a problem or not.
                  Trouble is, I'm not sure how to explain what I mean without an illustration.
                  I bet Corky knows what I'm trying to say, maybe he can help me out here...?



                  **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
                  products.
                  (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
                  ... Trouble is, I m not sure how to explain what I mean without an illustration. I bet Corky knows what I m trying to say, maybe he can help me out here...?
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 6, 2007
                    --- You wrote:
                    Trouble is, I'm not sure how to explain what I mean without an illustration.
                    I bet Corky knows what I'm trying to say, maybe he can help me out here...?
                    --- end of quote ---

                    I do know what you are trying to say. I'll take a stab at further explanation: Almost all planks of wood have grain that does not run in a straight line from end to end, it tails off either up or down over the length. Lucky is the woodworker who finds a board that is straight grained it's entire length, such wood, if it's clear (absent of knots and blemishes) usually costs more. When I was looking for douglass fir to use for wood in my airplane project, I found a lumber company that allowed me to cull through their stacks of clear stock in order to find boards with minimum grain runoff. Most lumber companies were loath to allow me to do that as it diminishes or devalues what's left for the next buyer.

                    But getting back to the issue of tear out, if you have a board that has a slope to the grain, say it slopes up from left to right. If you run the router across the top of the board from right to left, and the bit is spinning clockwise when facing down, it's rotation will very much want to lift pieces of wood off the board. This is the tear out and splintering mentioned.

                    However, if you flip the board over so that the slope is descending when moving from right to left, very little tear out will now occur because the grain is sloping away from the bit instead of up into it.

                    This is fine if all you are doing is trimming the board with a straight router bit, but if you are attempting to round off only one of the two edges of the board and you don't want to do a climbing cut for safety reasons and for aesthetic reasons you want to utilize that edge of the board that has the grain rising against the rotation of the router bit, your only option to prevent tear out is to purchase a router bit that can be flipped upside down. That way you can turn the board over and run your router along the now downward sloping grain, but the bit is is cutting the bottom edge.

                    Most people eschew buying dozens of bits and simply grip the router firmly and make a climbing cut, when necessary to prevent tear out.

                    Finally, I noticed while milling the cove and bead edges for my cedar strips, that some of the strips had both rising AND descending grain within the same strip! I experienced some tear out while producing the strips, but usually the cutting continued across the minor tear out and milled around it so it was not noticeable. Besides, it all gets covered with fiberglass anyway so minor imperfections are not an issue.

                    Sorry, long winded as usual.

                    Corky Scott
                  • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
                    ... I m sure this sounds amateurish, but all this discussion about routers reinforces my conviction that cutting scuppers with a drill press and a hole saw is
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 6, 2007
                      --- You wrote:
                      I'm sure this sounds amateurish, but all this discussion about routers reinforces my conviction that cutting scuppers with a drill press and a hole saw is easier for occasional builders like me who don't even own a router. I like the results and I feel safer with a tool I'm familiar with.
                      --- end of quote ---

                      Good point Richard. Though, I'd probably screw up the layout and cut one strip of scuppers on the wrong angle... :-D

                      Corky Scott
                    • Jeffrey Hoover
                      I clamped the plank down & cut the scuppers with a plunge router & homemade jig. Seems like an easy & safe way to go. Using an upcut spiral bit & cutting in 3
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 6, 2007
                        I clamped the plank down & cut the scuppers with a plunge router & homemade jig. Seems like an easy & safe way to go. Using an upcut spiral bit & cutting in 3 or 4 passes would provide a perfectly clean cut....no drilling or sawing required.

                        My initial attemp was with a down cut spiral bit which is meant to cut all the way through in 1 pass. Too much burn & chatter, not the way to go.

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: "charles.k.scott@..." <charles.k.scott@...>
                        To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 6:56:23 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Progress on the Gunwales but also a bit of a disaster

                        --- You wrote:
                        I'm sure this sounds amateurish, but all this discussion about routers reinforces my conviction that cutting scuppers with a drill press and a hole saw is easier for occasional builders like me who don't even own a router. I like the results and I feel safer with a tool I'm familiar with.
                        --- end of quote ---

                        Good point Richard. Though, I'd probably screw up the layout and cut one strip of scuppers on the wrong angle... :-D

                        Corky Scott




                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                        http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • donald kunsman
                        that doesnt sound amateurish at all , you have to do what you feel comfortable with , this is a hobby not a job. ... routers reinforces my conviction that
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 6, 2007
                          that doesnt sound amateurish at all , you have to do what you feel
                          comfortable with , this is a hobby not a job.



                          --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, <rberling@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I'm sure this sounds amateurish, but all this discussion about
                          routers reinforces my conviction that cutting scuppers with a drill
                          press and a hole saw is easier for occasional builders like me who
                          don't even own a router. I like the results and I feel safer with a
                          tool I'm familiar with.
                          >
                          > I do learn a lot reading these emails and appreciate all your
                          comments. Thanks.
                          > -
                          > Richard C. Berling
                          > Madison WI 53714
                          > ---------------------
                          > rberling@...
                          > 608-241-0817
                          >
                          > ---- NGC704@... wrote:
                          >
                          > =============
                          > It also helps a lot to feed the wood, or push/pull the router, in the
                          > direction the grain "arises" in; the same is true when picking the
                          direction to run
                          > a hand plane, or feed a power planer or jointer. Feed direction
                          often makes
                          > all the difference in the world in whether tear-out will be a
                          problem or not.
                          > Trouble is, I'm not sure how to explain what I mean without an
                          illustration.
                          > I bet Corky knows what I'm trying to say, maybe he can help me out
                          here...?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's
                          hottest
                          > products.
                          >
                          (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Rus
                          ...also for those of you that prefer not to use a router to make scuppered inwales i ve had great success just using blocks to make my scuppers...I glued them
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 6, 2007
                            ...also for those of you that prefer not to use a router to make
                            scuppered inwales i've had great success just using blocks to make my
                            scuppers...I glued them in place using epoxy and then screwed and glued
                            them to the boat with brass screws...my boat is 7 or 8 years old and
                            they still are in great shape....i rounded off the corners of the
                            spacer blocks and it gives it a nice finished look...actually you can't
                            even tell they were glued in place...



                            -- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                            >
                            > --- You wrote:
                            > I'm sure this sounds amateurish, but all this discussion about
                            routers reinforces my conviction that cutting scuppers with a drill
                            press and a hole saw is easier for occasional builders like me who
                            don't even own a router. I like the results and I feel safer with a
                            tool I'm familiar with.
                            > --- end of quote ---
                            >
                            > Good point Richard. Though, I'd probably screw up the layout and cut
                            one strip of scuppers on the wrong angle... :-D
                            >
                            > Corky Scott
                            >
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