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lapping and strip length

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  • Gwen Feero
    Hi all, I ve been nosing around all over the place and have run up against a block. Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards of the cedar and other
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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      Hi all,

      I've been nosing around all over the place and have
      run up against a block.

      Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards
      of the cedar and other woods we need? Are you guys
      lapping together boards to make the length? I've only
      found boards of 6ft lengths, and would need to lap 3
      together to make the 18ft required by the plans. Or
      am I totally missing something?

      Sorry if this has already been beat to death.

      Gwen






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    • Jon
      A few years ago, we had an active member of this forum from Austrailia (infowoodart) who was a professional woodworker. He made some beautiful furniture as
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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        A few years ago, we had an active member of this forum
        from Austrailia (infowoodart) who was a professional
        woodworker. He made some beautiful furniture as well
        as canoes. http://www.australianwoodart.com/

        He would argue that using epozy between the strips did
        increase the structural strength of the canoe. His
        theory was that the epoxy between the strips would act
        like the center part of an I-beam. Using epoxy
        between the strips eseentially formed many mini epoxy
        I-beams around your hull. I think it is similar in
        concept to some of the extruded materials being sold
        now.

        I am not advocating using epoxy between the strips due
        to the issue of constantly mixing batches and the
        cost. Just thought I'd add an idea to the discussion.

        Jon


        --- charles.k.scott@... wrote:

        > I noticed something else on the Heritage Canoe site,
        > they mentioned that they use two-part epoxy glue to
        > glue the cedar strips to each other. They may be
        > the only manufacturer of cedar strip canoes doing
        > that because the other companies don't feel it's
        > necessary to use that type of glue for two reasons:
        > 1. You have to continually remix new batches of glue
        > as the pot cures while you work with it. 2. The
        > cedar strips are completely enclosed with fiberglass
        > on both sides of the hull so the strength of the
        > glue joint really doesn't matter, the fiberglass is
        > what gives the hull the strength and waterproofing.
        > One site actually dwelt on why they prefered
        > ordinary wood glue, they said it greatly simplified
        > the process.
        >
        > Corky Scott
        >





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      • Jon
        Hi Gwen, I went to a lumberyard that supplies wood for cabinets. I took in my canoecraft book and showed the counter guy what I was looking for. he was able
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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          Hi Gwen,

          I went to a lumberyard that supplies wood for
          cabinets. I took in my canoecraft book and showed the
          counter guy what I was looking for. he was able to
          special order the lumber for me at no extra cost since
          I was willing to wait for their next shipment.

          My lumber came from someplace in Minnesota. Where are
          you located? Maybe someone on the forum lives near
          you and has a solution for you.

          Jon

          --- Gwen Feero <hilmirsmom@...> wrote:

          > Hi all,
          >
          > I've been nosing around all over the place and have
          > run up against a block.
          >
          > Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards
          > of the cedar and other woods we need? Are you guys
          > lapping together boards to make the length? I've
          > only
          > found boards of 6ft lengths, and would need to lap 3
          > together to make the 18ft required by the plans. Or
          > am I totally missing something?
          >
          > Sorry if this has already been beat to death.
          >
          > Gwen
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          ______________________________________________________
          > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief
          > effort.
          > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
          >





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        • Gwen Feero
          Hi, I m in SE. Oregon. I ll check with Home Depot, there are two locations within 3 hrs of home. (relatively close). The closest lumber yard looked at me
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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            Hi,

            I'm in SE. Oregon. I'll check with Home Depot, there
            are two locations within 3 hrs of home. (relatively
            close). The closest lumber yard looked at me like I
            was mental when I asked for clear cedar.

            Gwen



            --- Jon <ssnvet637@...> wrote:

            > Hi Gwen,
            >
            > I went to a lumberyard that supplies wood for
            > cabinets. I took in my canoecraft book and showed
            > the
            > counter guy what I was looking for. he was able to
            > special order the lumber for me at no extra cost
            > since
            > I was willing to wait for their next shipment.
            >
            > My lumber came from someplace in Minnesota. Where
            > are
            > you located? Maybe someone on the forum lives near
            > you and has a solution for you.
            >
            > Jon
            >
            > --- Gwen Feero <hilmirsmom@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Hi all,
            > >
            > > I've been nosing around all over the place and
            > have
            > > run up against a block.
            > >
            > > Are there suppliers out there that carry long
            > boards
            > > of the cedar and other woods we need? Are you
            > guys
            > > lapping together boards to make the length? I've
            > > only
            > > found boards of 6ft lengths, and would need to lap
            > 3
            > > together to make the 18ft required by the plans.
            > Or
            > > am I totally missing something?
            > >
            > > Sorry if this has already been beat to death.
            > >
            > > Gwen
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            ______________________________________________________
            > > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina
            > relief
            > > effort.
            > > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • OneSpecialDJ
            Corky, You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir., I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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              Corky,

              You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
              I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the wood also being a factor.

              thanks
              George

              charles.k.scott@... wrote:
              --- You wrote:
              I have broken down the set-up so it would be kinda hard to get a picture
              now. I copied the set-up that is on Heritage Canoe's web site, (HYPERLINK
              "http://www.heritagecanoes.com/Shop_Talk.html"http://www.heritagecanoes.com/
              Shop_Talk.html ) so you can get an idea there.
              --- end of quote ---

              Thanks for the address, it has a lot of good tips.

              I ripped a lot of material when I was building my wooden ribbed homebuilt airplane and ripping is fairly straight forward. If you follow the way the photo shows, things basically take care of themselves. The two feather boards on top are to hold the material down on the table, otherwise it has a tendency to ride up over the saw. The side feather board is important to hold the material against the fence so that each strip is the same dimensionally as all the rest. The side feather board has to be readjusted after each pass as the board continues to get trimmed down while you rip each strip. You can make your own feather boards, but I've admired the usefullness and adjustability of the store bought variety for a long time. I especially appreciate how nice it would be to be able to bolt the side feather board into the push plate slot, I had to clamp mine to the table.

              Having a helper who is standing by to receive the work so that it does not stop moving through the saw is a plus and a big help, but not absolutely necessary. When I used the planing blade, even stopping the material did not cause the blade to cut into the strips. That's because planing blades do not have teeth alternating from one side to the other, like most blades. The teeth are in line with the kerf. What it did do, when I had to move around to pull the work through, was polish that one area a bit.

              When the teeth got packed with sawdust and resin, I'd clean it using spray-on carb cleaner. That stuff REALLY cleaned it up. Even took off the lettering on the blade.

              The material I was using was sitka spruce, although I also ripped a bunch of douglas fir too.

              You might as well take your time on the set up to make sure that the blade is parallel to the fence, or rather that the fence is parallel to the blade.

              But this is not rocket science, one guy reported that he sliced all his strips using a hand held skill saw with a ripping fence bolted to it!

              Corky Scott


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            • ofmik
              Check out Noah s Marine Supplies who operate out of both the US and Canada (http://www.noahsmarine.com/United_States/united_states.html) I have ordered
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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                Check out Noah's Marine Supplies who operate out of both the US and Canada (http://www.noahsmarine.com/United_States/united_states.html) I have ordered finished strips as well as other supplies from them... their prices were fair and the quality excellent.
                OneSpecialDJ <onespecialdj@...> wrote:Corky,

                You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the wood also being a factor.

                thanks
                George

                charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                --- You wrote:
                I have broken down the set-up so it would be kinda hard to get a picture
                now. I copied the set-up that is on Heritage Canoe's web site, (HYPERLINK
                "http://www.heritagecanoes.com/Shop_Talk.html"http://www.heritagecanoes.com/
                Shop_Talk.html ) so you can get an idea there.
                --- end of quote ---

                Thanks for the address, it has a lot of good tips.

                I ripped a lot of material when I was building my wooden ribbed homebuilt airplane and ripping is fairly straight forward. If you follow the way the photo shows, things basically take care of themselves. The two feather boards on top are to hold the material down on the table, otherwise it has a tendency to ride up over the saw. The side feather board is important to hold the material against the fence so that each strip is the same dimensionally as all the rest. The side feather board has to be readjusted after each pass as the board continues to get trimmed down while you rip each strip. You can make your own feather boards, but I've admired the usefullness and adjustability of the store bought variety for a long time. I especially appreciate how nice it would be to be able to bolt the side feather board into the push plate slot, I had to clamp mine to the table.

                Having a helper who is standing by to receive the work so that it does not stop moving through the saw is a plus and a big help, but not absolutely necessary. When I used the planing blade, even stopping the material did not cause the blade to cut into the strips. That's because planing blades do not have teeth alternating from one side to the other, like most blades. The teeth are in line with the kerf. What it did do, when I had to move around to pull the work through, was polish that one area a bit.

                When the teeth got packed with sawdust and resin, I'd clean it using spray-on carb cleaner. That stuff REALLY cleaned it up. Even took off the lettering on the blade.

                The material I was using was sitka spruce, although I also ripped a bunch of douglas fir too.

                You might as well take your time on the set up to make sure that the blade is parallel to the fence, or rather that the fence is parallel to the blade.

                But this is not rocket science, one guy reported that he sliced all his strips using a hand held skill saw with a ripping fence bolted to it!

                Corky Scott


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              • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
                ... He would argue that using epozy between the strips did increase the structural strength of the canoe. His theory was that the epoxy between the strips
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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                  --- You wrote:
                  He would argue that using epozy between the strips did
                  increase the structural strength of the canoe. His
                  theory was that the epoxy between the strips would act
                  like the center part of an I-beam. Using epoxy
                  between the strips eseentially formed many mini epoxy
                  I-beams around your hull. I think it is similar in
                  concept to some of the extruded materials being sold
                  now.
                  --- end of quote ---

                  I guess I'd agree that the epoxy would be stronger. The only question I have is is it necessary? Have these canoes blown apart in service? If not then strength, or the lack of it when using ordinary wood glue, may be a non issue.

                  --- You wrote:
                  I am not advocating using epoxy between the strips due
                  to the issue of constantly mixing batches and the
                  cost. Just thought I'd add an idea to the discussion.
                  --- end of quote ---

                  I've used two part epoxy glue a lot and I can certainly testify that a lot of glue gets wasted, and I had to remix and remix and remix for big jobs. The stuff is immensely strong, stronger than the wood itself, but like the companies that are not using it say, what's the point if the canoe hull is strong enough without using it?

                  There's another parallel from the world of homebuilt airplanes, that of moldless fiberglass construction. This is a method whereby the builder shapes foam to a desired shape and then layers fiberglass on top of it. Some of the longish forms are longer than the available foam blocks. So builders glue them together. What glue do they use to glue the foam together? Simple hot glue, the kind of thing kids use for projects. This is possible because the foam is there simply to hold the shape you want, it's the fiberglass that gives it it's strength. Cedar strip canoes appear to be very similar in concept. The strips form the shape desired, and the fiberglass encapsulates it, waterproof's it and gives it it's strength. You could use almost anything to form the canoe, including cardboard, as long as the proper weight fiberglass is used and it's layered where needed. In fact, use enough fiberglass, and the form itself isn't even needed once the resin has cured. I watched a fiberglass canoe being built at Oldtown Maine back in 1968. They sprayed on a parting material over the form and draped fiberglass cloth over it, then spread on the resin. Once the fiberglass had cured, they broke the glass off the form, painted it and added the gunwalls, seats and other details. Or the paint was a part of the gell coat.

                  It didn't look as pretty as a cedar strip canoe though. :-)

                  Corky Scott
                • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
                  ... Corky, You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir., I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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                    --- You wrote:
                    Corky,

                    You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                    I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the wood also being a factor.
                    --- end of quote ---

                    Before anyone actually listens to me, understand that I have not built a cedar strip canoe yet. I have done a bunch of research over the last several weeks and spent 15 years building a wooden winged airplane. The wood used in airplanes is required to have a number of characteristics that are not necessary for a canoe. The canoe isn't going to be airworthy after all. :-D

                    But any wood ought to work as long as the grain follows the plank (doesn't angle off much) and there are a lot of rings per inch, and you keep the wood rings as vertical as the wood allows.

                    Douglas Fir is considered a one to one replacement for Sitka Spruce in airplane construction, however there is a penaly to pay. While the fir is about 10% stronger than Spruce, it's also 10% to 15% heavier and in airplanes, weight is the enemy. In airplane construction, absolute indestructability is not sought, ever. What engineers want is strength that is adaquate for the design and lighter than anything else that could be used. Also, Douglas Fir splits MUCH more easily than does Sitka Spruce. Aircraft grade Sitka Spruce is very difficult to find now, most of it's been logged off.

                    But as I mentioned in a previous message, the wood in the cedar strip canoe is just there to hold the shape you want while you bond fiberglass over it. Any wood could be used including white pine, as long as it's straight grained and free of knots. You could even stain the wood prior to gluing the strips on the form if you wanted to get fancy. You can get stains in any shade or color you can imagine. (Please note, I've not heard of anyone who's actually done this, I just don't see why you couldn't, and it would certainly save money. But I have heard that cedar is lighter than pine)

                    Knots or sap pockets would be acceptable in the stock as long as you could rip enough material that gave you enough strips. What I mean is, the knots usually don't go all the way from one side of the stock to the other so you can rip material up to the knot and have it knot free. This may mean that you do not get your full length strip out of some of the stock, but that might be acceptable to you if the stock is inexpensive enough that you can buy extra to rip.

                    You can also go to some lumber yards and ask to cull through stacks of clear, vertical grained material to get what you want. But you have to smile nicely and catch them on a good day because they really won't like you doing that, it means only the not so great pieces are left. I did that at a lumbar yard once and got all kinds of help and a guy even showed me the pile and helped me lift off pieces so I could get what I wanted. But the next time I went there, I was served by a different guy and he not only didn't want to help, he said I couldn't go through the wood at all, had to take what was stacked or go somewhere else.

                    Around here there is one lumber yard that has specialty woods. They have cedar, spruce, oak, maple mahogany etc etc. We also have a local, just opened Home Depot and I noticed yesterday that they had a stack of cedar.

                    Corky Scott
                  • OneSpecialDJ
                    Corky, Thanks for the help. I know that I will want something very light and that is why everyone uses cedar. We have a home depot here, and though they carry
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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                      Corky,

                      Thanks for the help. I know that I will want something very light and that is why everyone uses cedar. We have a home depot here, and though they carry cedar, it is aromatic cedar, with plenty of knots in the wood. Another reader suggested that the home depot he had near him was able to get them to order some clear cedar. I have also tried Cox lumber. The first time I called they said no problem getting the wood, and the next time I came by to buy the wood they said they didn't carry it, so you can guess my trouble getting good wood in florida.

                      Thanks for the advice and help.

                      George

                      charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                      --- You wrote:
                      Corky,

                      You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                      I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the wood also being a factor.
                      --- end of quote ---

                      Before anyone actually listens to me, understand that I have not built a cedar strip canoe yet. I have done a bunch of research over the last several weeks and spent 15 years building a wooden winged airplane. The wood used in airplanes is required to have a number of characteristics that are not necessary for a canoe. The canoe isn't going to be airworthy after all. :-D

                      But any wood ought to work as long as the grain follows the plank (doesn't angle off much) and there are a lot of rings per inch, and you keep the wood rings as vertical as the wood allows.

                      Douglas Fir is considered a one to one replacement for Sitka Spruce in airplane construction, however there is a penaly to pay. While the fir is about 10% stronger than Spruce, it's also 10% to 15% heavier and in airplanes, weight is the enemy. In airplane construction, absolute indestructability is not sought, ever. What engineers want is strength that is adaquate for the design and lighter than anything else that could be used. Also, Douglas Fir splits MUCH more easily than does Sitka Spruce. Aircraft grade Sitka Spruce is very difficult to find now, most of it's been logged off.

                      But as I mentioned in a previous message, the wood in the cedar strip canoe is just there to hold the shape you want while you bond fiberglass over it. Any wood could be used including white pine, as long as it's straight grained and free of knots. You could even stain the wood prior to gluing the strips on the form if you wanted to get fancy. You can get stains in any shade or color you can imagine. (Please note, I've not heard of anyone who's actually done this, I just don't see why you couldn't, and it would certainly save money. But I have heard that cedar is lighter than pine)

                      Knots or sap pockets would be acceptable in the stock as long as you could rip enough material that gave you enough strips. What I mean is, the knots usually don't go all the way from one side of the stock to the other so you can rip material up to the knot and have it knot free. This may mean that you do not get your full length strip out of some of the stock, but that might be acceptable to you if the stock is inexpensive enough that you can buy extra to rip.

                      You can also go to some lumber yards and ask to cull through stacks of clear, vertical grained material to get what you want. But you have to smile nicely and catch them on a good day because they really won't like you doing that, it means only the not so great pieces are left. I did that at a lumbar yard once and got all kinds of help and a guy even showed me the pile and helped me lift off pieces so I could get what I wanted. But the next time I went there, I was served by a different guy and he not only didn't want to help, he said I couldn't go through the wood at all, had to take what was stacked or go somewhere else.

                      Around here there is one lumber yard that has specialty woods. They have cedar, spruce, oak, maple mahogany etc etc. We also have a local, just opened Home Depot and I noticed yesterday that they had a stack of cedar.

                      Corky Scott


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                    • Jon
                      The only issues I have seen with my canoe is deep gouges which puncture the cloth and a small area where there was not any adhesion to the wood. Seems plenty
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
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                        The only issues I have seen with my canoe is deep
                        gouges which puncture the cloth and a small area where
                        there was not any adhesion to the wood. Seems plenty
                        stiff and strong for me.

                        I paddled my cedar strip in rapids up to class III
                        (once) and have paddled it through many class I and II
                        rapids. Many times I have heard the scrape of canoe
                        against rock and have been pleased with the way it has
                        held up.

                        Jon

                        --- charles.k.scott@... wrote:

                        > --- You wrote:
                        > He would argue that using epozy between the strips
                        > did
                        > increase the structural strength of the canoe. His
                        > theory was that the epoxy between the strips would
                        > act
                        > like the center part of an I-beam. Using epoxy
                        > between the strips eseentially formed many mini
                        > epoxy
                        > I-beams around your hull. I think it is similar in
                        > concept to some of the extruded materials being sold
                        > now.
                        > --- end of quote ---
                        >
                        > I guess I'd agree that the epoxy would be stronger.
                        > The only question I have is is it necessary? Have
                        > these canoes blown apart in service? If not then
                        > strength, or the lack of it when using ordinary wood
                        > glue, may be a non issue.
                        >
                        > --- You wrote:
                        > I am not advocating using epoxy between the strips
                        > due
                        > to the issue of constantly mixing batches and the
                        > cost. Just thought I'd add an idea to the
                        > discussion.
                        > --- end of quote ---
                        >
                        > I've used two part epoxy glue a lot and I can
                        > certainly testify that a lot of glue gets wasted,
                        > and I had to remix and remix and remix for big jobs.
                        > The stuff is immensely strong, stronger than the
                        > wood itself, but like the companies that are not
                        > using it say, what's the point if the canoe hull is
                        > strong enough without using it?
                        >
                        > There's another parallel from the world of homebuilt
                        > airplanes, that of moldless fiberglass construction.
                        > This is a method whereby the builder shapes foam to
                        > a desired shape and then layers fiberglass on top of
                        > it. Some of the longish forms are longer than the
                        > available foam blocks. So builders glue them
                        > together. What glue do they use to glue the foam
                        > together? Simple hot glue, the kind of thing kids
                        > use for projects. This is possible because the foam
                        > is there simply to hold the shape you want, it's the
                        > fiberglass that gives it it's strength. Cedar
                        > strip canoes appear to be very similar in concept.
                        > The strips form the shape desired, and the
                        > fiberglass encapsulates it, waterproof's it and
                        > gives it it's strength. You could use almost
                        > anything to form the canoe, including cardboard, as
                        > long as the proper weight fiberglass is used and
                        > it's layered where needed. In fact, use enough
                        > fiberglass, and the form itself isn't even needed
                        > once the resin has cured. I watched a fiberglass
                        > canoe being built at Oldtown Maine back in 1968.
                        > They sprayed on a parting material over the form and
                        > draped fiberglass cloth over it, then spread on the
                        > resin. Once the fiberglass had cured, they broke
                        > the glass off the form, painted it and added the
                        > gunwalls, seats and other details. Or the paint was
                        > a part of the gell coat.
                        >
                        > It didn't look as pretty as a cedar strip canoe
                        > though. :-)
                        >
                        > Corky Scott
                        >
                        >





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                      • Scott & Jane
                        George, You might consider Redwood for your canoe. It is listed in Canoecraft as an alternate material. It is plenty strong for the application and may well
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          George,

                          You might consider Redwood for your canoe. It is listed in Canoecraft as an
                          alternate material. It is plenty strong for the application and may well be
                          more available in your area. It will be much darker than cedar



                          I have almost completed a strip built mail box using redwood. I wanted to
                          practice the strip building techniques on something small before I launched
                          into 20� sticks of cedar on a 17� �Redbird� canoe.



                          Scott Carroll�



                          _____

                          From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of OneSpecialDJ
                          Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 8:46 AM
                          To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Technical pointers...



                          Corky,

                          Thanks for the help. I know that I will want something very light and that
                          is why everyone uses cedar. We have a home depot here, and though they carry
                          cedar, it is aromatic cedar, with plenty of knots in the wood. Another
                          reader suggested that the home depot he had near him was able to get them to
                          order some clear cedar. I have also tried Cox lumber. The first time I
                          called they said no problem getting the wood, and the next time I came by to
                          buy the wood they said they didn't carry it, so you can guess my trouble
                          getting good wood in florida.

                          Thanks for the advice and help.

                          George

                          charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                          --- You wrote:
                          Corky,

                          You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                          I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without
                          paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other
                          sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the
                          wood also being a factor.
                          --- end of quote ---

                          Before anyone actually listens to me, understand that I have not built a
                          cedar strip canoe yet. I have done a bunch of research over the last
                          several weeks and spent 15 years building a wooden winged airplane. The
                          wood used in airplanes is required to have a number of characteristics that
                          are not necessary for a canoe. The canoe isn't going to be airworthy after
                          all. :-D

                          But any wood ought to work as long as the grain follows the plank (doesn't
                          angle off much) and there are a lot of rings per inch, and you keep the wood
                          rings as vertical as the wood allows.

                          Douglas Fir is considered a one to one replacement for Sitka Spruce in
                          airplane construction, however there is a penaly to pay. While the fir is
                          about 10% stronger than Spruce, it's also 10% to 15% heavier and in
                          airplanes, weight is the enemy. In airplane construction, absolute
                          indestructability is not sought, ever. What engineers want is strength that
                          is adaquate for the design and lighter than anything else that could be
                          used. Also, Douglas Fir splits MUCH more easily than does Sitka Spruce.
                          Aircraft grade Sitka Spruce is very difficult to find now, most of it's been
                          logged off.

                          But as I mentioned in a previous message, the wood in the cedar strip canoe
                          is just there to hold the shape you want while you bond fiberglass over it.
                          Any wood could be used including white pine, as long as it's straight
                          grained and free of knots. You could even stain the wood prior to gluing
                          the strips on the form if you wanted to get fancy. You can get stains in
                          any shade or color you can imagine. (Please note, I've not heard of anyone
                          who's actually done this, I just don't see why you couldn't, and it would
                          certainly save money. But I have heard that cedar is lighter than pine)

                          Knots or sap pockets would be acceptable in the stock as long as you could
                          rip enough material that gave you enough strips. What I mean is, the knots
                          usually don't go all the way from one side of the stock to the other so you
                          can rip material up to the knot and have it knot free. This may mean that
                          you do not get your full length strip out of some of the stock, but that
                          might be acceptable to you if the stock is inexpensive enough that you can
                          buy extra to rip.

                          You can also go to some lumber yards and ask to cull through stacks of
                          clear, vertical grained material to get what you want. But you have to
                          smile nicely and catch them on a good day because they really won't like you
                          doing that, it means only the not so great pieces are left. I did that at a
                          lumbar yard once and got all kinds of help and a guy even showed me the pile
                          and helped me lift off pieces so I could get what I wanted. But the next
                          time I went there, I was served by a different guy and he not only didn't
                          want to help, he said I couldn't go through the wood at all, had to take
                          what was stacked or go somewhere else.

                          Around here there is one lumber yard that has specialty woods. They have
                          cedar, spruce, oak, maple mahogany etc etc. We also have a local, just
                          opened Home Depot and I noticed yesterday that they had a stack of cedar.

                          Corky Scott


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                        • OneSpecialDJ
                          Scott, thanks for the tip I will check with my lumber companies to see if it is available. Thanks George Scott & Jane wrote: George, You
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 7, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Scott,

                            thanks for the tip I will check with my lumber companies to see if it is available.

                            Thanks
                            George

                            Scott & Jane <scott.jane@...> wrote:
                            George,

                            You might consider Redwood for your canoe. It is listed in Canoecraft as an
                            alternate material. It is plenty strong for the application and may well be
                            more available in your area. It will be much darker than cedar



                            I have almost completed a strip built mail box using redwood. I wanted to
                            practice the strip building techniques on something small before I launched
                            into 20’ sticks of cedar on a 17’ “Redbird” canoe.



                            Scott Carroll…



                            _____

                            From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of OneSpecialDJ
                            Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 8:46 AM
                            To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Technical pointers...



                            Corky,

                            Thanks for the help. I know that I will want something very light and that
                            is why everyone uses cedar. We have a home depot here, and though they carry
                            cedar, it is aromatic cedar, with plenty of knots in the wood. Another
                            reader suggested that the home depot he had near him was able to get them to
                            order some clear cedar. I have also tried Cox lumber. The first time I
                            called they said no problem getting the wood, and the next time I came by to
                            buy the wood they said they didn't carry it, so you can guess my trouble
                            getting good wood in florida.

                            Thanks for the advice and help.

                            George

                            charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                            --- You wrote:
                            Corky,

                            You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                            I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without
                            paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other
                            sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the
                            wood also being a factor.
                            --- end of quote ---

                            Before anyone actually listens to me, understand that I have not built a
                            cedar strip canoe yet. I have done a bunch of research over the last
                            several weeks and spent 15 years building a wooden winged airplane. The
                            wood used in airplanes is required to have a number of characteristics that
                            are not necessary for a canoe. The canoe isn't going to be airworthy after
                            all. :-D

                            But any wood ought to work as long as the grain follows the plank (doesn't
                            angle off much) and there are a lot of rings per inch, and you keep the wood
                            rings as vertical as the wood allows.

                            Douglas Fir is considered a one to one replacement for Sitka Spruce in
                            airplane construction, however there is a penaly to pay. While the fir is
                            about 10% stronger than Spruce, it's also 10% to 15% heavier and in
                            airplanes, weight is the enemy. In airplane construction, absolute
                            indestructability is not sought, ever. What engineers want is strength that
                            is adaquate for the design and lighter than anything else that could be
                            used. Also, Douglas Fir splits MUCH more easily than does Sitka Spruce.
                            Aircraft grade Sitka Spruce is very difficult to find now, most of it's been
                            logged off.

                            But as I mentioned in a previous message, the wood in the cedar strip canoe
                            is just there to hold the shape you want while you bond fiberglass over it.
                            Any wood could be used including white pine, as long as it's straight
                            grained and free of knots. You could even stain the wood prior to gluing
                            the strips on the form if you wanted to get fancy. You can get stains in
                            any shade or color you can imagine. (Please note, I've not heard of anyone
                            who's actually done this, I just don't see why you couldn't, and it would
                            certainly save money. But I have heard that cedar is lighter than pine)

                            Knots or sap pockets would be acceptable in the stock as long as you could
                            rip enough material that gave you enough strips. What I mean is, the knots
                            usually don't go all the way from one side of the stock to the other so you
                            can rip material up to the knot and have it knot free. This may mean that
                            you do not get your full length strip out of some of the stock, but that
                            might be acceptable to you if the stock is inexpensive enough that you can
                            buy extra to rip.

                            You can also go to some lumber yards and ask to cull through stacks of
                            clear, vertical grained material to get what you want. But you have to
                            smile nicely and catch them on a good day because they really won't like you
                            doing that, it means only the not so great pieces are left. I did that at a
                            lumbar yard once and got all kinds of help and a guy even showed me the pile
                            and helped me lift off pieces so I could get what I wanted. But the next
                            time I went there, I was served by a different guy and he not only didn't
                            want to help, he said I couldn't go through the wood at all, had to take
                            what was stacked or go somewhere else.

                            Around here there is one lumber yard that has specialty woods. They have
                            cedar, spruce, oak, maple mahogany etc etc. We also have a local, just
                            opened Home Depot and I noticed yesterday that they had a stack of cedar.

                            Corky Scott


                            SPONSORED LINKS
                            Paddling gear Canoeing and kayaking Wood strip Kayak paddling

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                          • J. R. Sloan
                            ... Canoecraft as an ... well be ... JR Comment: Scott is right--redwood is a good material for canoes, and is readily available (I found) in inexpensive,
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 7, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, "Scott & Jane"
                              <scott.jane@c...> wrote:
                              > George,
                              >
                              > You might consider Redwood for your canoe. It is listed in
                              Canoecraft as an
                              > alternate material. It is plenty strong for the application and may
                              well be
                              > more available in your area. It will be much darker than cedar
                              >
                              >
                              JR Comment: Scott is right--redwood is a good material for canoes, and
                              is readily available (I found) in inexpensive, usable lengths. I and
                              a neighbor dis-assembled his redwood deck after years of use, so he
                              could re-do the deck. The salvaged decking was effectively free for
                              the taking, and with some judicious diagonal slicing to avoid knots,
                              we were able to scarf together some 20-foot 2x4s. These we ran
                              through a planer and then sliced into 3/8"x1.25"(or so) strips using
                              thin-kerf 7-1/4" contractors' blades on a table saw (like sawing
                              butter, almost). For planking, these became the raw material. At
                              their widest, ideal for bottom planking and the first several "starter
                              strips" on the sides.

                              Color, especially for older-growth redwood, is very dark brown; where
                              there was sapwood or younger grains, the yellow turned to a tan.
                              Overall, the color combinations give an overall impression of that
                              shoeshine color, cordovan.

                              I got best results with an initial sealer epoxy coat after the first
                              rough sanding: when it's squeegeed on and sets up, it immediately
                              stiffens up the whole structure. It's now a real CANOE!...and you can
                              start to smooth sand for the next coat, which will have imbedded the
                              first layer of glass. The object is both to seal the grain (which
                              will soak up an amazing amount of epoxy if a squeegeed-on sealing coat
                              isn't applied first) and to make the whole shape a whole--by filling
                              in the gaps between all the cracks that the wood glue didn't get to.
                              Until you've experienced this "stiffening" of your project the first
                              time, you won't get it. Thereafter, you'll always do it that way.

                              JR
                            • Don Moore
                              ... wrote: Hi all, I ve been nosing around all over the place and have run up against a block. Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards of the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 15, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Gwen Feero <hilmirsmom@y...>
                                wrote:
                                Hi all,
                                I've been nosing around all over the place and have
                                run up against a block.
                                Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards
                                of the cedar and other woods we need? Are you guys
                                lapping together boards to make the length? I've only
                                found boards of 6ft lengths, and would need to lap 3
                                together to make the 18ft required by the plans. Or
                                am I totally missing something?
                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Hi Gwen--
                                Don't know whether this will help or not. I build woodwind
                                instruments and sometimes need straight grained, knot free cedar. I
                                usually go to the Revy lumber yard (a canadian version of home depot)
                                and pick up a cedar decking plank. If I get the right attendant, I
                                can usually get him to let me pick the plank I want. This stuff is a
                                full one inch thick (as compared to 1" nominal) and is very straight
                                grained and mostly knot free. If using it for strips, you would lose
                                a couple of 16ths on both edges of the plank when ripping, as they
                                are rounded off a bit on the edge corners. But what the hey, eh?
                                The only thing is that they don't come in very long lengths, so would
                                have to be spliced.

                                Nowdays, it's pretty hard to find knot free lumber anywhere, so you
                                unless you get really lucky, you might as well expect at least a few
                                splices or skarf joints in your strips to get the full strip length
                                you need.

                                Skarfing is not all that difficult to do with a bit of practice and
                                has been discussed in this group awhile back and I think there is
                                some discussion on it in the files section as well.

                                Good hunting--
                                --Don Moore


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