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Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Technical pointers...

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  • Tom
    ... I think the closer the strip is to .250 the better. Set-up with the cove and bead bits are critical. Likewise its important to use feather boards or a
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 31 11:44 AM
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      >
      > I set up my table saw and cut some redwood strips
      > from a well dried fence
      > board. I milled the strips to 0.260" thick.

      I think the closer the strip is to .250 the better. Set-up with the cove
      and bead bits are critical. Likewise its important to use feather boards or
      a comparable system to secure the position of the strips as they feed
      through the cutters. I saw my strips over size than run them though a
      planer to size them both width and thickness. I feel that there is a limit
      to the precision, because the wood is forgivving and a lot of latitude can
      be dealt with quite satisfactory results. I like your mail box, good luck,
      Tom, Northeastern CA
    • J. R. Sloan
      ... dried fence ... router table ... was thinking ... Welcome to the Yahoogroup, Scott! It is true that the edges will be very fragile. Some of us worry more
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 1, 2005
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        > I set up my table saw and cut some redwood strips from a well
        dried fence
        > board. I milled the strips to 0.260" thick. I then set-up the
        router table
        > and cut the bead and cove. The cove edges are very fragile. I
        was thinking
        > that for the real-deal I would cut the strips to 0.275" thick. Any
        > suggestions for a more appropriate thickness?
        > Scott Carroll
        >
        > Lakeside, Ca.
        >
        Welcome to the Yahoogroup, Scott!

        It is true that the edges will be very fragile. Some of us worry
        more about that than others...in general, it won't make much
        difference. So long as the part of the cove side that splits off
        isn't a chunk (i.e., remains just a sliver), chances are that once
        you have applied a seal coat of epoxy, sanded it, applied the first
        and then (where applicable) the second coat of glass and epoxy, then
        sand a whole bunch, and then add some coats of UV-treated varnish,
        you won't be able to find the place you're worried about now.

        In fact, strippers have been made using the following methods other
        than bead-and-cove: plain strips with caulking, plain strips with
        glue and no caulking, opposite-diagonal tapers that overlap with
        glue and sometimes epoxy caulk, tongue-and-groove, and probably
        others that we haven't even considered yet. Results? pretty much
        the same, except the ones that don't fully overlap one another
        sometimes show light through the cracks.

        One solution some of us have played around with is going to a larger
        diameter bead-and-cove set. The so-called "canoe" sets are set up
        for .25" thick strips simply because that is a convention we
        strippers have adopted or have had foisted upon us: they're
        available that way, and 1/4" is convenient. But if you choose 3/8"
        diameter bead and cove sets, (a)the combination set is readily
        available anywhere, (b) the larger diameter avoids the edge-
        fragility of the coves problem, and (c) less wood is removed from
        the strips if you do it right. The results are still pretty much
        the same (the joint overlaps and stops light, but the strips are a
        little (a hair) stiffer, and go farther to cover the sides of the
        canoe. Once sanded, sealed and covered with glas + epoxy, you can't
        tell the difference. The one issue is that the 3/8" cove bit is
        usually (not always) a vertical bit, so you want to use a
        sacrificial fence on the router table and a jig to set the strips to
        the proper orientation to the bit. Oh--the 3/8" combination costs
        about $8 a bit where I shop, so the set is about half the price of
        the custom canoe bits.

        After all that, there are two big satisfactions in the craft, at
        opposite ends of a continuum. One is building the most beautifully
        crafted piece of furniture that any of your wacko neighbors have
        ever seen, and the other is peacefully floating in the nearest body
        of water, in it. Most of us find our highest enjoyment somewhere in
        the middle of both.

        Best of luck--and get the thing in the water as soon as you can.

        JR
      • markiv03755
        ... Jon, is it possible to set up your table saw with a planing blade, square things off in relation to the fence and plane off strips without any kerfs in
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 30, 2005
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          --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Jon <ssnvet637@y...> wrote:
          > HI Scott,

          >
          > That being said, I am contemplating on my next
          > stripper to cut the strips thicker and then run them
          > through a drum sander to get the kerf marks off them.
          > Am hoping this reduces the amount of sanding necessary
          > at the end, especially on the inside.

          Jon, is it possible to set up your table saw with a planing blade,
          square things off in relation to the fence and plane off strips
          without any kerfs in them? I thought that was possible.

          Thanks, Corky Scott
        • Jon
          I havn t looked into that. Sounds like a better plan if it means one pass to mill a strip instead of the extra handling though a sander. What is the waste on
          Message 4 of 29 , Aug 30, 2005
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            I havn't looked into that. Sounds like a better plan
            if it means one pass to mill a strip instead of the
            extra handling though a sander. What is the waste on
            a planing blade in comparison to a thin kerf blade and
            additional sanding?

            Jon

            --- markiv03755 <charles.k.scott@...> wrote:

            > --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Jon
            > <ssnvet637@y...> wrote:
            > > HI Scott,
            >
            > >
            > > That being said, I am contemplating on my next
            > > stripper to cut the strips thicker and then run
            > them
            > > through a drum sander to get the kerf marks off
            > them.
            > > Am hoping this reduces the amount of sanding
            > necessary
            > > at the end, especially on the inside.
            >
            > Jon, is it possible to set up your table saw with a
            > planing blade,
            > square things off in relation to the fence and plane
            > off strips
            > without any kerfs in them? I thought that was
            > possible.
            >
            > Thanks, Corky Scott
            >
            >
            >


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          • Jon
            I havn t looked into that. Sounds like a better plan if it means one pass to mill a strip instead of the extra handling though a sander. What is the waste on
            Message 5 of 29 , Aug 30, 2005
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              I havn't looked into that. Sounds like a better plan
              if it means one pass to mill a strip instead of the
              extra handling though a sander. What is the waste on
              a planing blade in comparison to a thin kerf blade and
              additional sanding?

              Jon

              --- markiv03755 <charles.k.scott@...> wrote:

              > --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Jon
              > <ssnvet637@y...> wrote:
              > > HI Scott,
              >
              > >
              > > That being said, I am contemplating on my next
              > > stripper to cut the strips thicker and then run
              > them
              > > through a drum sander to get the kerf marks off
              > them.
              > > Am hoping this reduces the amount of sanding
              > necessary
              > > at the end, especially on the inside.
              >
              > Jon, is it possible to set up your table saw with a
              > planing blade,
              > square things off in relation to the fence and plane
              > off strips
              > without any kerfs in them? I thought that was
              > possible.
              >
              > Thanks, Corky Scott
              >
              >
              >


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            • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
              ... I havn t looked into that. Sounds like a better plan if it means one pass to mill a strip instead of the extra handling though a sander. What is the
              Message 6 of 29 , Aug 30, 2005
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                > Jon, is it possible to set up your table saw with a
                > planing blade,
                > square things off in relation to the fence and plane
                > off strips
                > without any kerfs in them? I thought that was
                > possible.
                >
                > Thanks, Corky Scott

                I havn't looked into that. Sounds like a better plan
                if it means one pass to mill a strip instead of the
                extra handling though a sander. What is the waste on
                a planing blade in comparison to a thin kerf blade and
                additional sanding?

                Jon

                Jon, I'm not a carpentry expert, but I thought that almost by definition the thin kerf blades *WERE* planing blades, but I could easily be mistaken.

                The point of planing blades is to be able to mill your work with a minimum amount of visible saw marks (none, if possible). It takes some time (at least with my vintage table saw) to get the fence squared to the saw blade, and this has to be done each time you change the fence. I have to measure from the fence to the slot that is used for the push plate at both ends to make sure things are squared up. But of course I'm not using the push plate while using the fence. Otherwise the saw blade will have a tendency to bind or overheat because it's wedging the wood against the fence, or it's pulling it away. Once the blade overheats, it can take a permanent warp, if you don't let it run for a while and cool off.

                I have a couple of planing blades and they are all cut down from the hub. They appear to be thin kerf type blades but maybe I'm mistaken.

                Corky Scott
              • Jon
                I guess that is something to look into. I know I have an interest in making less work out of the sanding part, especially on the inside of the hull. JOn ...
                Message 7 of 29 , Aug 30, 2005
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                  I guess that is something to look into. I know I have
                  an interest in making less work out of the sanding
                  part, especially on the inside of the hull.

                  JOn

                  >
                  > Jon, I'm not a carpentry expert, but I thought that
                  > almost by definition the thin kerf blades *WERE*
                  > planing blades, but I could easily be mistaken.
                  >
                  > The point of planing blades is to be able to mill
                  > your work with a minimum amount of visible saw marks
                  > (none, if possible). It takes some time (at least
                  > with my vintage table saw) to get the fence squared
                  > to the saw blade, and this has to be done each time
                  > you change the fence. I have to measure from the
                  > fence to the slot that is used for the push plate at
                  > both ends to make sure things are squared up. But
                  > of course I'm not using the push plate while using
                  > the fence. Otherwise the saw blade will have a
                  > tendency to bind or overheat because it's wedging
                  > the wood against the fence, or it's pulling it away.
                  > Once the blade overheats, it can take a permanent
                  > warp, if you don't let it run for a while and cool
                  > off.
                  >
                  > I have a couple of planing blades and they are all
                  > cut down from the hub. They appear to be thin kerf
                  > type blades but maybe I'm mistaken.
                  >
                  > Corky Scott
                  >
                  >




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                • Scott & Jane
                  Sorry for responding to this post a little late… I use a Freud Diablo 24 tooth ripping blade with a pair of blade stabilizers on my 1961 model Atlas
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 3, 2005
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                    Sorry for responding to this post a little late�



                    I use a Freud Diablo 24 tooth ripping blade with a pair of blade stabilizers
                    on my 1961 model Atlas contractors table saw. I set-up the fence with
                    feather boards and a vacuum wand. With this set-up I get a cut so smooth
                    that there are no kerf marks at all as long as I keep the stock moving
                    through the blade. Doing long rips by myself, I have to stop half way
                    through to step over to the output end to pull the stock through. This
                    produces a blade mark where I stopped. The blade produces a 0.100� kerf.
                    This is because my saw is so old it is not easily adjustable and the .093�
                    blade is about 0.007� (about a tenth of a degree) out of plane with the
                    fence.



                    Yours in a pile of saw dust,

                    Scott Carroll, Lakeside, CA.



                    _____

                    From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 7:15 PM
                    To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Technical pointers...



                    I guess that is something to look into. I know I have
                    an interest in making less work out of the sanding
                    part, especially on the inside of the hull.

                    JOn

                    >
                    > Jon, I'm not a carpentry expert, but I thought that
                    > almost by definition the thin kerf blades *WERE*
                    > planing blades, but I could easily be mistaken.
                    >
                    > The point of planing blades is to be able to mill
                    > your work with a minimum amount of visible saw marks
                    > (none, if possible). It takes some time (at least
                    > with my vintage table saw) to get the fence squared
                    > to the saw blade, and this has to be done each time
                    > you change the fence. I have to measure from the
                    > fence to the slot that is used for the push plate at
                    > both ends to make sure things are squared up. But
                    > of course I'm not using the push plate while using
                    > the fence. Otherwise the saw blade will have a
                    > tendency to bind or overheat because it's wedging
                    > the wood against the fence, or it's pulling it away.
                    > Once the blade overheats, it can take a permanent
                    > warp, if you don't let it run for a while and cool
                    > off.
                    >
                    > I have a couple of planing blades and they are all
                    > cut down from the hub. They appear to be thin kerf
                    > type blades but maybe I'm mistaken.
                    >
                    > Corky Scott
                    >
                    >




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                  • calvin plato
                    Is it possible to get a picture of this set up? Also, what are blade stabilizers and a vaccum wand? How long of a fence do you use for this setup? Scott &
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 3, 2005
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                      Is it possible to get a picture of this set up? Also, what are blade stabilizers and a vaccum wand? How long of a fence do you use for this setup?

                      Scott & Jane <scott.jane@...> wrote:Sorry for responding to this post a little late…



                      I use a Freud Diablo 24 tooth ripping blade with a pair of blade stabilizers
                      on my 1961 model Atlas contractors table saw. I set-up the fence with
                      feather boards and a vacuum wand. With this set-up I get a cut so smooth
                      that there are no kerf marks at all as long as I keep the stock moving
                      through the blade. Doing long rips by myself, I have to stop half way
                      through to step over to the output end to pull the stock through. This
                      produces a blade mark where I stopped. The blade produces a 0.100” kerf.
                      This is because my saw is so old it is not easily adjustable and the .093”
                      blade is about 0.007” (about a tenth of a degree) out of plane with the
                      fence.



                      Yours in a pile of saw dust,

                      Scott Carroll, Lakeside, CA.



                      _____

                      From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 7:15 PM
                      To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Technical pointers...



                      I guess that is something to look into. I know I have
                      an interest in making less work out of the sanding
                      part, especially on the inside of the hull.

                      JOn

                      >
                      > Jon, I'm not a carpentry expert, but I thought that
                      > almost by definition the thin kerf blades *WERE*
                      > planing blades, but I could easily be mistaken.
                      >
                      > The point of planing blades is to be able to mill
                      > your work with a minimum amount of visible saw marks
                      > (none, if possible). It takes some time (at least
                      > with my vintage table saw) to get the fence squared
                      > to the saw blade, and this has to be done each time
                      > you change the fence. I have to measure from the
                      > fence to the slot that is used for the push plate at
                      > both ends to make sure things are squared up. But
                      > of course I'm not using the push plate while using
                      > the fence. Otherwise the saw blade will have a
                      > tendency to bind or overheat because it's wedging
                      > the wood against the fence, or it's pulling it away.
                      > Once the blade overheats, it can take a permanent
                      > warp, if you don't let it run for a while and cool
                      > off.
                      >
                      > I have a couple of planing blades and they are all
                      > cut down from the hub. They appear to be thin kerf
                      > type blades but maybe I'm mistaken.
                      >
                      > Corky Scott
                      >
                      >




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                    • Scott & Jane
                      Hi Calvin, I have broken down the set-up so it would be kinda hard to get a picture now. I copied the set-up that is on Heritage Canoe’s web site,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 3, 2005
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                        Hi Calvin,



                        I have broken down the set-up so it would be kinda hard to get a picture
                        now. I copied the set-up that is on Heritage Canoe�s web site, (HYPERLINK
                        "http://www.heritagecanoes.com/Shop_Talk.html"http://www.heritagecanoes.com/
                        Shop_Talk.html ) so you can get an idea there.



                        The blade stabilizer is a pair of machined steel disks that are about a
                        quarter of an inch thick and vary in diameter. Mine are about 3� dia. They
                        are installed on either side of the blade like big washers. They cut down
                        on blade vibration and thus saw marks, (noise too!). I got mine at Rockler
                        Woodworking supplies. The vacuum wand is just a flat tubular attachment for
                        the shop vac that is positioned to pick up any saw dust the blade kicks up
                        on its way up so it won�t drag it through the cut on the way down and make
                        marks or additional heat. It also cuts way down on the mess when doing a
                        lot of ripping. I made the fence from a 1� piece of melamine board about
                        36� long and screw it to the stock rip fence.



                        I am building a Red Bird from the Canoecraft book.



                        Bst rgds,

                        Scott�



                        _____

                        From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of calvin plato
                        Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 4:44 PM
                        To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Technical pointers...



                        Is it possible to get a picture of this set up? Also, what are blade
                        stabilizers and a vaccum wand? How long of a fence do you use for this
                        setup?

                        Scott & Jane <scott.jane@...> wrote:Sorry for responding to this post a
                        little late�



                        I use a Freud Diablo 24 tooth ripping blade with a pair of blade stabilizers
                        on my 1961 model Atlas contractors table saw. I set-up the fence with
                        feather boards and a vacuum wand. With this set-up I get a cut so smooth
                        that there are no kerf marks at all as long as I keep the stock moving
                        through the blade. Doing long rips by myself, I have to stop half way
                        through to step over to the output end to pull the stock through. This
                        produces a blade mark where I stopped. The blade produces a 0.100� kerf.
                        This is because my saw is so old it is not easily adjustable and the .093�
                        blade is about 0.007� (about a tenth of a degree) out of plane with the
                        fence.



                        Yours in a pile of saw dust,

                        Scott Carroll, Lakeside, CA.



                        _____

                        From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 7:15 PM
                        To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Technical pointers...



                        I guess that is something to look into. I know I have
                        an interest in making less work out of the sanding
                        part, especially on the inside of the hull.

                        JOn

                        >
                        > Jon, I'm not a carpentry expert, but I thought that
                        > almost by definition the thin kerf blades *WERE*
                        > planing blades, but I could easily be mistaken.
                        >
                        > The point of planing blades is to be able to mill
                        > your work with a minimum amount of visible saw marks
                        > (none, if possible). It takes some time (at least
                        > with my vintage table saw) to get the fence squared
                        > to the saw blade, and this has to be done each time
                        > you change the fence. I have to measure from the
                        > fence to the slot that is used for the push plate at
                        > both ends to make sure things are squared up. But
                        > of course I'm not using the push plate while using
                        > the fence. Otherwise the saw blade will have a
                        > tendency to bind or overheat because it's wedging
                        > the wood against the fence, or it's pulling it away.
                        > Once the blade overheats, it can take a permanent
                        > warp, if you don't let it run for a while and cool
                        > off.
                        >
                        > I have a couple of planing blades and they are all
                        > cut down from the hub. They appear to be thin kerf
                        > type blades but maybe I'm mistaken.
                        >
                        > Corky Scott
                        >
                        >




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                        ing+and+kayaking&w3=Wood+strip&w4=Kayak+paddling&c=4&s=82&.sig=8gcTJlXy4X4yo
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                      • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
                        ... I have broken down the set-up so it would be kinda hard to get a picture now. I copied the set-up that is on Heritage Canoe s web site, (HYPERLINK
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- You wrote:
                          I have broken down the set-up so it would be kinda hard to get a picture
                          now. I copied the set-up that is on Heritage Canoe's web site, (HYPERLINK
                          "http://www.heritagecanoes.com/Shop_Talk.html"http://www.heritagecanoes.com/
                          Shop_Talk.html ) so you can get an idea there.
                          --- end of quote ---

                          Thanks for the address, it has a lot of good tips.

                          I ripped a lot of material when I was building my wooden ribbed homebuilt airplane and ripping is fairly straight forward. If you follow the way the photo shows, things basically take care of themselves. The two feather boards on top are to hold the material down on the table, otherwise it has a tendency to ride up over the saw. The side feather board is important to hold the material against the fence so that each strip is the same dimensionally as all the rest. The side feather board has to be readjusted after each pass as the board continues to get trimmed down while you rip each strip. You can make your own feather boards, but I've admired the usefullness and adjustability of the store bought variety for a long time. I especially appreciate how nice it would be to be able to bolt the side feather board into the push plate slot, I had to clamp mine to the table.

                          Having a helper who is standing by to receive the work so that it does not stop moving through the saw is a plus and a big help, but not absolutely necessary. When I used the planing blade, even stopping the material did not cause the blade to cut into the strips. That's because planing blades do not have teeth alternating from one side to the other, like most blades. The teeth are in line with the kerf. What it did do, when I had to move around to pull the work through, was polish that one area a bit.

                          When the teeth got packed with sawdust and resin, I'd clean it using spray-on carb cleaner. That stuff REALLY cleaned it up. Even took off the lettering on the blade.

                          The material I was using was sitka spruce, although I also ripped a bunch of douglas fir too.

                          You might as well take your time on the set up to make sure that the blade is parallel to the fence, or rather that the fence is parallel to the blade.

                          But this is not rocket science, one guy reported that he sliced all his strips using a hand held skill saw with a ripping fence bolted to it!

                          Corky Scott
                        • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
                          I noticed something else on the Heritage Canoe site, they mentioned that they use two-part epoxy glue to glue the cedar strips to each other. They may be the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I noticed something else on the Heritage Canoe site, they mentioned that they use two-part epoxy glue to glue the cedar strips to each other. They may be the only manufacturer of cedar strip canoes doing that because the other companies don't feel it's necessary to use that type of glue for two reasons: 1. You have to continually remix new batches of glue as the pot cures while you work with it. 2. The cedar strips are completely enclosed with fiberglass on both sides of the hull so the strength of the glue joint really doesn't matter, the fiberglass is what gives the hull the strength and waterproofing. One site actually dwelt on why they prefered ordinary wood glue, they said it greatly simplified the process.

                            Corky Scott
                          • Gwen Feero
                            Hi all, I ve been nosing around all over the place and have run up against a block. Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards of the cedar and other
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi all,

                              I've been nosing around all over the place and have
                              run up against a block.

                              Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards
                              of the cedar and other woods we need? Are you guys
                              lapping together boards to make the length? I've only
                              found boards of 6ft lengths, and would need to lap 3
                              together to make the 18ft required by the plans. Or
                              am I totally missing something?

                              Sorry if this has already been beat to death.

                              Gwen






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                            • Jon
                              A few years ago, we had an active member of this forum from Austrailia (infowoodart) who was a professional woodworker. He made some beautiful furniture as
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                A few years ago, we had an active member of this forum
                                from Austrailia (infowoodart) who was a professional
                                woodworker. He made some beautiful furniture as well
                                as canoes. http://www.australianwoodart.com/

                                He would argue that using epozy between the strips did
                                increase the structural strength of the canoe. His
                                theory was that the epoxy between the strips would act
                                like the center part of an I-beam. Using epoxy
                                between the strips eseentially formed many mini epoxy
                                I-beams around your hull. I think it is similar in
                                concept to some of the extruded materials being sold
                                now.

                                I am not advocating using epoxy between the strips due
                                to the issue of constantly mixing batches and the
                                cost. Just thought I'd add an idea to the discussion.

                                Jon


                                --- charles.k.scott@... wrote:

                                > I noticed something else on the Heritage Canoe site,
                                > they mentioned that they use two-part epoxy glue to
                                > glue the cedar strips to each other. They may be
                                > the only manufacturer of cedar strip canoes doing
                                > that because the other companies don't feel it's
                                > necessary to use that type of glue for two reasons:
                                > 1. You have to continually remix new batches of glue
                                > as the pot cures while you work with it. 2. The
                                > cedar strips are completely enclosed with fiberglass
                                > on both sides of the hull so the strength of the
                                > glue joint really doesn't matter, the fiberglass is
                                > what gives the hull the strength and waterproofing.
                                > One site actually dwelt on why they prefered
                                > ordinary wood glue, they said it greatly simplified
                                > the process.
                                >
                                > Corky Scott
                                >





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                              • Jon
                                Hi Gwen, I went to a lumberyard that supplies wood for cabinets. I took in my canoecraft book and showed the counter guy what I was looking for. he was able
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Gwen,

                                  I went to a lumberyard that supplies wood for
                                  cabinets. I took in my canoecraft book and showed the
                                  counter guy what I was looking for. he was able to
                                  special order the lumber for me at no extra cost since
                                  I was willing to wait for their next shipment.

                                  My lumber came from someplace in Minnesota. Where are
                                  you located? Maybe someone on the forum lives near
                                  you and has a solution for you.

                                  Jon

                                  --- Gwen Feero <hilmirsmom@...> wrote:

                                  > Hi all,
                                  >
                                  > I've been nosing around all over the place and have
                                  > run up against a block.
                                  >
                                  > Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards
                                  > of the cedar and other woods we need? Are you guys
                                  > lapping together boards to make the length? I've
                                  > only
                                  > found boards of 6ft lengths, and would need to lap 3
                                  > together to make the 18ft required by the plans. Or
                                  > am I totally missing something?
                                  >
                                  > Sorry if this has already been beat to death.
                                  >
                                  > Gwen
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  ______________________________________________________
                                  > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief
                                  > effort.
                                  > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
                                  >





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                                • Gwen Feero
                                  Hi, I m in SE. Oregon. I ll check with Home Depot, there are two locations within 3 hrs of home. (relatively close). The closest lumber yard looked at me
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi,

                                    I'm in SE. Oregon. I'll check with Home Depot, there
                                    are two locations within 3 hrs of home. (relatively
                                    close). The closest lumber yard looked at me like I
                                    was mental when I asked for clear cedar.

                                    Gwen



                                    --- Jon <ssnvet637@...> wrote:

                                    > Hi Gwen,
                                    >
                                    > I went to a lumberyard that supplies wood for
                                    > cabinets. I took in my canoecraft book and showed
                                    > the
                                    > counter guy what I was looking for. he was able to
                                    > special order the lumber for me at no extra cost
                                    > since
                                    > I was willing to wait for their next shipment.
                                    >
                                    > My lumber came from someplace in Minnesota. Where
                                    > are
                                    > you located? Maybe someone on the forum lives near
                                    > you and has a solution for you.
                                    >
                                    > Jon
                                    >
                                    > --- Gwen Feero <hilmirsmom@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Hi all,
                                    > >
                                    > > I've been nosing around all over the place and
                                    > have
                                    > > run up against a block.
                                    > >
                                    > > Are there suppliers out there that carry long
                                    > boards
                                    > > of the cedar and other woods we need? Are you
                                    > guys
                                    > > lapping together boards to make the length? I've
                                    > > only
                                    > > found boards of 6ft lengths, and would need to lap
                                    > 3
                                    > > together to make the 18ft required by the plans.
                                    > Or
                                    > > am I totally missing something?
                                    > >
                                    > > Sorry if this has already been beat to death.
                                    > >
                                    > > Gwen
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    ______________________________________________________
                                    > > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina
                                    > relief
                                    > > effort.
                                    > > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ______________________________________________________
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                                  • OneSpecialDJ
                                    Corky, You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir., I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Corky,

                                      You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                                      I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the wood also being a factor.

                                      thanks
                                      George

                                      charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                                      --- You wrote:
                                      I have broken down the set-up so it would be kinda hard to get a picture
                                      now. I copied the set-up that is on Heritage Canoe's web site, (HYPERLINK
                                      "http://www.heritagecanoes.com/Shop_Talk.html"http://www.heritagecanoes.com/
                                      Shop_Talk.html ) so you can get an idea there.
                                      --- end of quote ---

                                      Thanks for the address, it has a lot of good tips.

                                      I ripped a lot of material when I was building my wooden ribbed homebuilt airplane and ripping is fairly straight forward. If you follow the way the photo shows, things basically take care of themselves. The two feather boards on top are to hold the material down on the table, otherwise it has a tendency to ride up over the saw. The side feather board is important to hold the material against the fence so that each strip is the same dimensionally as all the rest. The side feather board has to be readjusted after each pass as the board continues to get trimmed down while you rip each strip. You can make your own feather boards, but I've admired the usefullness and adjustability of the store bought variety for a long time. I especially appreciate how nice it would be to be able to bolt the side feather board into the push plate slot, I had to clamp mine to the table.

                                      Having a helper who is standing by to receive the work so that it does not stop moving through the saw is a plus and a big help, but not absolutely necessary. When I used the planing blade, even stopping the material did not cause the blade to cut into the strips. That's because planing blades do not have teeth alternating from one side to the other, like most blades. The teeth are in line with the kerf. What it did do, when I had to move around to pull the work through, was polish that one area a bit.

                                      When the teeth got packed with sawdust and resin, I'd clean it using spray-on carb cleaner. That stuff REALLY cleaned it up. Even took off the lettering on the blade.

                                      The material I was using was sitka spruce, although I also ripped a bunch of douglas fir too.

                                      You might as well take your time on the set up to make sure that the blade is parallel to the fence, or rather that the fence is parallel to the blade.

                                      But this is not rocket science, one guy reported that he sliced all his strips using a hand held skill saw with a ripping fence bolted to it!

                                      Corky Scott


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                                    • ofmik
                                      Check out Noah s Marine Supplies who operate out of both the US and Canada (http://www.noahsmarine.com/United_States/united_states.html) I have ordered
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Check out Noah's Marine Supplies who operate out of both the US and Canada (http://www.noahsmarine.com/United_States/united_states.html) I have ordered finished strips as well as other supplies from them... their prices were fair and the quality excellent.
                                        OneSpecialDJ <onespecialdj@...> wrote:Corky,

                                        You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                                        I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the wood also being a factor.

                                        thanks
                                        George

                                        charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                                        --- You wrote:
                                        I have broken down the set-up so it would be kinda hard to get a picture
                                        now. I copied the set-up that is on Heritage Canoe's web site, (HYPERLINK
                                        "http://www.heritagecanoes.com/Shop_Talk.html"http://www.heritagecanoes.com/
                                        Shop_Talk.html ) so you can get an idea there.
                                        --- end of quote ---

                                        Thanks for the address, it has a lot of good tips.

                                        I ripped a lot of material when I was building my wooden ribbed homebuilt airplane and ripping is fairly straight forward. If you follow the way the photo shows, things basically take care of themselves. The two feather boards on top are to hold the material down on the table, otherwise it has a tendency to ride up over the saw. The side feather board is important to hold the material against the fence so that each strip is the same dimensionally as all the rest. The side feather board has to be readjusted after each pass as the board continues to get trimmed down while you rip each strip. You can make your own feather boards, but I've admired the usefullness and adjustability of the store bought variety for a long time. I especially appreciate how nice it would be to be able to bolt the side feather board into the push plate slot, I had to clamp mine to the table.

                                        Having a helper who is standing by to receive the work so that it does not stop moving through the saw is a plus and a big help, but not absolutely necessary. When I used the planing blade, even stopping the material did not cause the blade to cut into the strips. That's because planing blades do not have teeth alternating from one side to the other, like most blades. The teeth are in line with the kerf. What it did do, when I had to move around to pull the work through, was polish that one area a bit.

                                        When the teeth got packed with sawdust and resin, I'd clean it using spray-on carb cleaner. That stuff REALLY cleaned it up. Even took off the lettering on the blade.

                                        The material I was using was sitka spruce, although I also ripped a bunch of douglas fir too.

                                        You might as well take your time on the set up to make sure that the blade is parallel to the fence, or rather that the fence is parallel to the blade.

                                        But this is not rocket science, one guy reported that he sliced all his strips using a hand held skill saw with a ripping fence bolted to it!

                                        Corky Scott


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                                      • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
                                        ... He would argue that using epozy between the strips did increase the structural strength of the canoe. His theory was that the epoxy between the strips
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- You wrote:
                                          He would argue that using epozy between the strips did
                                          increase the structural strength of the canoe. His
                                          theory was that the epoxy between the strips would act
                                          like the center part of an I-beam. Using epoxy
                                          between the strips eseentially formed many mini epoxy
                                          I-beams around your hull. I think it is similar in
                                          concept to some of the extruded materials being sold
                                          now.
                                          --- end of quote ---

                                          I guess I'd agree that the epoxy would be stronger. The only question I have is is it necessary? Have these canoes blown apart in service? If not then strength, or the lack of it when using ordinary wood glue, may be a non issue.

                                          --- You wrote:
                                          I am not advocating using epoxy between the strips due
                                          to the issue of constantly mixing batches and the
                                          cost. Just thought I'd add an idea to the discussion.
                                          --- end of quote ---

                                          I've used two part epoxy glue a lot and I can certainly testify that a lot of glue gets wasted, and I had to remix and remix and remix for big jobs. The stuff is immensely strong, stronger than the wood itself, but like the companies that are not using it say, what's the point if the canoe hull is strong enough without using it?

                                          There's another parallel from the world of homebuilt airplanes, that of moldless fiberglass construction. This is a method whereby the builder shapes foam to a desired shape and then layers fiberglass on top of it. Some of the longish forms are longer than the available foam blocks. So builders glue them together. What glue do they use to glue the foam together? Simple hot glue, the kind of thing kids use for projects. This is possible because the foam is there simply to hold the shape you want, it's the fiberglass that gives it it's strength. Cedar strip canoes appear to be very similar in concept. The strips form the shape desired, and the fiberglass encapsulates it, waterproof's it and gives it it's strength. You could use almost anything to form the canoe, including cardboard, as long as the proper weight fiberglass is used and it's layered where needed. In fact, use enough fiberglass, and the form itself isn't even needed once the resin has cured. I watched a fiberglass canoe being built at Oldtown Maine back in 1968. They sprayed on a parting material over the form and draped fiberglass cloth over it, then spread on the resin. Once the fiberglass had cured, they broke the glass off the form, painted it and added the gunwalls, seats and other details. Or the paint was a part of the gell coat.

                                          It didn't look as pretty as a cedar strip canoe though. :-)

                                          Corky Scott
                                        • charles.k.scott@dartmouth.edu
                                          ... Corky, You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir., I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- You wrote:
                                            Corky,

                                            You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                                            I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the wood also being a factor.
                                            --- end of quote ---

                                            Before anyone actually listens to me, understand that I have not built a cedar strip canoe yet. I have done a bunch of research over the last several weeks and spent 15 years building a wooden winged airplane. The wood used in airplanes is required to have a number of characteristics that are not necessary for a canoe. The canoe isn't going to be airworthy after all. :-D

                                            But any wood ought to work as long as the grain follows the plank (doesn't angle off much) and there are a lot of rings per inch, and you keep the wood rings as vertical as the wood allows.

                                            Douglas Fir is considered a one to one replacement for Sitka Spruce in airplane construction, however there is a penaly to pay. While the fir is about 10% stronger than Spruce, it's also 10% to 15% heavier and in airplanes, weight is the enemy. In airplane construction, absolute indestructability is not sought, ever. What engineers want is strength that is adaquate for the design and lighter than anything else that could be used. Also, Douglas Fir splits MUCH more easily than does Sitka Spruce. Aircraft grade Sitka Spruce is very difficult to find now, most of it's been logged off.

                                            But as I mentioned in a previous message, the wood in the cedar strip canoe is just there to hold the shape you want while you bond fiberglass over it. Any wood could be used including white pine, as long as it's straight grained and free of knots. You could even stain the wood prior to gluing the strips on the form if you wanted to get fancy. You can get stains in any shade or color you can imagine. (Please note, I've not heard of anyone who's actually done this, I just don't see why you couldn't, and it would certainly save money. But I have heard that cedar is lighter than pine)

                                            Knots or sap pockets would be acceptable in the stock as long as you could rip enough material that gave you enough strips. What I mean is, the knots usually don't go all the way from one side of the stock to the other so you can rip material up to the knot and have it knot free. This may mean that you do not get your full length strip out of some of the stock, but that might be acceptable to you if the stock is inexpensive enough that you can buy extra to rip.

                                            You can also go to some lumber yards and ask to cull through stacks of clear, vertical grained material to get what you want. But you have to smile nicely and catch them on a good day because they really won't like you doing that, it means only the not so great pieces are left. I did that at a lumbar yard once and got all kinds of help and a guy even showed me the pile and helped me lift off pieces so I could get what I wanted. But the next time I went there, I was served by a different guy and he not only didn't want to help, he said I couldn't go through the wood at all, had to take what was stacked or go somewhere else.

                                            Around here there is one lumber yard that has specialty woods. They have cedar, spruce, oak, maple mahogany etc etc. We also have a local, just opened Home Depot and I noticed yesterday that they had a stack of cedar.

                                            Corky Scott
                                          • OneSpecialDJ
                                            Corky, Thanks for the help. I know that I will want something very light and that is why everyone uses cedar. We have a home depot here, and though they carry
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Corky,

                                              Thanks for the help. I know that I will want something very light and that is why everyone uses cedar. We have a home depot here, and though they carry cedar, it is aromatic cedar, with plenty of knots in the wood. Another reader suggested that the home depot he had near him was able to get them to order some clear cedar. I have also tried Cox lumber. The first time I called they said no problem getting the wood, and the next time I came by to buy the wood they said they didn't carry it, so you can guess my trouble getting good wood in florida.

                                              Thanks for the advice and help.

                                              George

                                              charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                                              --- You wrote:
                                              Corky,

                                              You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                                              I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the wood also being a factor.
                                              --- end of quote ---

                                              Before anyone actually listens to me, understand that I have not built a cedar strip canoe yet. I have done a bunch of research over the last several weeks and spent 15 years building a wooden winged airplane. The wood used in airplanes is required to have a number of characteristics that are not necessary for a canoe. The canoe isn't going to be airworthy after all. :-D

                                              But any wood ought to work as long as the grain follows the plank (doesn't angle off much) and there are a lot of rings per inch, and you keep the wood rings as vertical as the wood allows.

                                              Douglas Fir is considered a one to one replacement for Sitka Spruce in airplane construction, however there is a penaly to pay. While the fir is about 10% stronger than Spruce, it's also 10% to 15% heavier and in airplanes, weight is the enemy. In airplane construction, absolute indestructability is not sought, ever. What engineers want is strength that is adaquate for the design and lighter than anything else that could be used. Also, Douglas Fir splits MUCH more easily than does Sitka Spruce. Aircraft grade Sitka Spruce is very difficult to find now, most of it's been logged off.

                                              But as I mentioned in a previous message, the wood in the cedar strip canoe is just there to hold the shape you want while you bond fiberglass over it. Any wood could be used including white pine, as long as it's straight grained and free of knots. You could even stain the wood prior to gluing the strips on the form if you wanted to get fancy. You can get stains in any shade or color you can imagine. (Please note, I've not heard of anyone who's actually done this, I just don't see why you couldn't, and it would certainly save money. But I have heard that cedar is lighter than pine)

                                              Knots or sap pockets would be acceptable in the stock as long as you could rip enough material that gave you enough strips. What I mean is, the knots usually don't go all the way from one side of the stock to the other so you can rip material up to the knot and have it knot free. This may mean that you do not get your full length strip out of some of the stock, but that might be acceptable to you if the stock is inexpensive enough that you can buy extra to rip.

                                              You can also go to some lumber yards and ask to cull through stacks of clear, vertical grained material to get what you want. But you have to smile nicely and catch them on a good day because they really won't like you doing that, it means only the not so great pieces are left. I did that at a lumbar yard once and got all kinds of help and a guy even showed me the pile and helped me lift off pieces so I could get what I wanted. But the next time I went there, I was served by a different guy and he not only didn't want to help, he said I couldn't go through the wood at all, had to take what was stacked or go somewhere else.

                                              Around here there is one lumber yard that has specialty woods. They have cedar, spruce, oak, maple mahogany etc etc. We also have a local, just opened Home Depot and I noticed yesterday that they had a stack of cedar.

                                              Corky Scott


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                                            • Jon
                                              The only issues I have seen with my canoe is deep gouges which puncture the cloth and a small area where there was not any adhesion to the wood. Seems plenty
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                The only issues I have seen with my canoe is deep
                                                gouges which puncture the cloth and a small area where
                                                there was not any adhesion to the wood. Seems plenty
                                                stiff and strong for me.

                                                I paddled my cedar strip in rapids up to class III
                                                (once) and have paddled it through many class I and II
                                                rapids. Many times I have heard the scrape of canoe
                                                against rock and have been pleased with the way it has
                                                held up.

                                                Jon

                                                --- charles.k.scott@... wrote:

                                                > --- You wrote:
                                                > He would argue that using epozy between the strips
                                                > did
                                                > increase the structural strength of the canoe. His
                                                > theory was that the epoxy between the strips would
                                                > act
                                                > like the center part of an I-beam. Using epoxy
                                                > between the strips eseentially formed many mini
                                                > epoxy
                                                > I-beams around your hull. I think it is similar in
                                                > concept to some of the extruded materials being sold
                                                > now.
                                                > --- end of quote ---
                                                >
                                                > I guess I'd agree that the epoxy would be stronger.
                                                > The only question I have is is it necessary? Have
                                                > these canoes blown apart in service? If not then
                                                > strength, or the lack of it when using ordinary wood
                                                > glue, may be a non issue.
                                                >
                                                > --- You wrote:
                                                > I am not advocating using epoxy between the strips
                                                > due
                                                > to the issue of constantly mixing batches and the
                                                > cost. Just thought I'd add an idea to the
                                                > discussion.
                                                > --- end of quote ---
                                                >
                                                > I've used two part epoxy glue a lot and I can
                                                > certainly testify that a lot of glue gets wasted,
                                                > and I had to remix and remix and remix for big jobs.
                                                > The stuff is immensely strong, stronger than the
                                                > wood itself, but like the companies that are not
                                                > using it say, what's the point if the canoe hull is
                                                > strong enough without using it?
                                                >
                                                > There's another parallel from the world of homebuilt
                                                > airplanes, that of moldless fiberglass construction.
                                                > This is a method whereby the builder shapes foam to
                                                > a desired shape and then layers fiberglass on top of
                                                > it. Some of the longish forms are longer than the
                                                > available foam blocks. So builders glue them
                                                > together. What glue do they use to glue the foam
                                                > together? Simple hot glue, the kind of thing kids
                                                > use for projects. This is possible because the foam
                                                > is there simply to hold the shape you want, it's the
                                                > fiberglass that gives it it's strength. Cedar
                                                > strip canoes appear to be very similar in concept.
                                                > The strips form the shape desired, and the
                                                > fiberglass encapsulates it, waterproof's it and
                                                > gives it it's strength. You could use almost
                                                > anything to form the canoe, including cardboard, as
                                                > long as the proper weight fiberglass is used and
                                                > it's layered where needed. In fact, use enough
                                                > fiberglass, and the form itself isn't even needed
                                                > once the resin has cured. I watched a fiberglass
                                                > canoe being built at Oldtown Maine back in 1968.
                                                > They sprayed on a parting material over the form and
                                                > draped fiberglass cloth over it, then spread on the
                                                > resin. Once the fiberglass had cured, they broke
                                                > the glass off the form, painted it and added the
                                                > gunwalls, seats and other details. Or the paint was
                                                > a part of the gell coat.
                                                >
                                                > It didn't look as pretty as a cedar strip canoe
                                                > though. :-)
                                                >
                                                > Corky Scott
                                                >
                                                >





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                                              • Scott & Jane
                                                George, You might consider Redwood for your canoe. It is listed in Canoecraft as an alternate material. It is plenty strong for the application and may well
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Sep 6, 2005
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  George,

                                                  You might consider Redwood for your canoe. It is listed in Canoecraft as an
                                                  alternate material. It is plenty strong for the application and may well be
                                                  more available in your area. It will be much darker than cedar



                                                  I have almost completed a strip built mail box using redwood. I wanted to
                                                  practice the strip building techniques on something small before I launched
                                                  into 20� sticks of cedar on a 17� �Redbird� canoe.



                                                  Scott Carroll�



                                                  _____

                                                  From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                                  [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of OneSpecialDJ
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 8:46 AM
                                                  To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Technical pointers...



                                                  Corky,

                                                  Thanks for the help. I know that I will want something very light and that
                                                  is why everyone uses cedar. We have a home depot here, and though they carry
                                                  cedar, it is aromatic cedar, with plenty of knots in the wood. Another
                                                  reader suggested that the home depot he had near him was able to get them to
                                                  order some clear cedar. I have also tried Cox lumber. The first time I
                                                  called they said no problem getting the wood, and the next time I came by to
                                                  buy the wood they said they didn't carry it, so you can guess my trouble
                                                  getting good wood in florida.

                                                  Thanks for the advice and help.

                                                  George

                                                  charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                                                  --- You wrote:
                                                  Corky,

                                                  You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                                                  I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without
                                                  paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other
                                                  sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the
                                                  wood also being a factor.
                                                  --- end of quote ---

                                                  Before anyone actually listens to me, understand that I have not built a
                                                  cedar strip canoe yet. I have done a bunch of research over the last
                                                  several weeks and spent 15 years building a wooden winged airplane. The
                                                  wood used in airplanes is required to have a number of characteristics that
                                                  are not necessary for a canoe. The canoe isn't going to be airworthy after
                                                  all. :-D

                                                  But any wood ought to work as long as the grain follows the plank (doesn't
                                                  angle off much) and there are a lot of rings per inch, and you keep the wood
                                                  rings as vertical as the wood allows.

                                                  Douglas Fir is considered a one to one replacement for Sitka Spruce in
                                                  airplane construction, however there is a penaly to pay. While the fir is
                                                  about 10% stronger than Spruce, it's also 10% to 15% heavier and in
                                                  airplanes, weight is the enemy. In airplane construction, absolute
                                                  indestructability is not sought, ever. What engineers want is strength that
                                                  is adaquate for the design and lighter than anything else that could be
                                                  used. Also, Douglas Fir splits MUCH more easily than does Sitka Spruce.
                                                  Aircraft grade Sitka Spruce is very difficult to find now, most of it's been
                                                  logged off.

                                                  But as I mentioned in a previous message, the wood in the cedar strip canoe
                                                  is just there to hold the shape you want while you bond fiberglass over it.
                                                  Any wood could be used including white pine, as long as it's straight
                                                  grained and free of knots. You could even stain the wood prior to gluing
                                                  the strips on the form if you wanted to get fancy. You can get stains in
                                                  any shade or color you can imagine. (Please note, I've not heard of anyone
                                                  who's actually done this, I just don't see why you couldn't, and it would
                                                  certainly save money. But I have heard that cedar is lighter than pine)

                                                  Knots or sap pockets would be acceptable in the stock as long as you could
                                                  rip enough material that gave you enough strips. What I mean is, the knots
                                                  usually don't go all the way from one side of the stock to the other so you
                                                  can rip material up to the knot and have it knot free. This may mean that
                                                  you do not get your full length strip out of some of the stock, but that
                                                  might be acceptable to you if the stock is inexpensive enough that you can
                                                  buy extra to rip.

                                                  You can also go to some lumber yards and ask to cull through stacks of
                                                  clear, vertical grained material to get what you want. But you have to
                                                  smile nicely and catch them on a good day because they really won't like you
                                                  doing that, it means only the not so great pieces are left. I did that at a
                                                  lumbar yard once and got all kinds of help and a guy even showed me the pile
                                                  and helped me lift off pieces so I could get what I wanted. But the next
                                                  time I went there, I was served by a different guy and he not only didn't
                                                  want to help, he said I couldn't go through the wood at all, had to take
                                                  what was stacked or go somewhere else.

                                                  Around here there is one lumber yard that has specialty woods. They have
                                                  cedar, spruce, oak, maple mahogany etc etc. We also have a local, just
                                                  opened Home Depot and I noticed yesterday that they had a stack of cedar.

                                                  Corky Scott


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                                                • OneSpecialDJ
                                                  Scott, thanks for the tip I will check with my lumber companies to see if it is available. Thanks George Scott & Jane wrote: George, You
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Sep 7, 2005
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Scott,

                                                    thanks for the tip I will check with my lumber companies to see if it is available.

                                                    Thanks
                                                    George

                                                    Scott & Jane <scott.jane@...> wrote:
                                                    George,

                                                    You might consider Redwood for your canoe. It is listed in Canoecraft as an
                                                    alternate material. It is plenty strong for the application and may well be
                                                    more available in your area. It will be much darker than cedar



                                                    I have almost completed a strip built mail box using redwood. I wanted to
                                                    practice the strip building techniques on something small before I launched
                                                    into 20’ sticks of cedar on a 17’ “Redbird” canoe.



                                                    Scott Carroll…



                                                    _____

                                                    From: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                                    [mailto:cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of OneSpecialDJ
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 8:46 AM
                                                    To: cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: RE: [Cedar Strip Canoes] Re: Technical pointers...



                                                    Corky,

                                                    Thanks for the help. I know that I will want something very light and that
                                                    is why everyone uses cedar. We have a home depot here, and though they carry
                                                    cedar, it is aromatic cedar, with plenty of knots in the wood. Another
                                                    reader suggested that the home depot he had near him was able to get them to
                                                    order some clear cedar. I have also tried Cox lumber. The first time I
                                                    called they said no problem getting the wood, and the next time I came by to
                                                    buy the wood they said they didn't carry it, so you can guess my trouble
                                                    getting good wood in florida.

                                                    Thanks for the advice and help.

                                                    George

                                                    charles.k.scott@... wrote:
                                                    --- You wrote:
                                                    Corky,

                                                    You mentioned you use Sitka Spuce and some Doug Fir.,
                                                    I live in clearwater Florida and I cannot obtain western red cedar without
                                                    paying an arm and a leg to have it trucked here from out west. What other
                                                    sources of wood (cheap) could I use to build a strip kayak? Weight of the
                                                    wood also being a factor.
                                                    --- end of quote ---

                                                    Before anyone actually listens to me, understand that I have not built a
                                                    cedar strip canoe yet. I have done a bunch of research over the last
                                                    several weeks and spent 15 years building a wooden winged airplane. The
                                                    wood used in airplanes is required to have a number of characteristics that
                                                    are not necessary for a canoe. The canoe isn't going to be airworthy after
                                                    all. :-D

                                                    But any wood ought to work as long as the grain follows the plank (doesn't
                                                    angle off much) and there are a lot of rings per inch, and you keep the wood
                                                    rings as vertical as the wood allows.

                                                    Douglas Fir is considered a one to one replacement for Sitka Spruce in
                                                    airplane construction, however there is a penaly to pay. While the fir is
                                                    about 10% stronger than Spruce, it's also 10% to 15% heavier and in
                                                    airplanes, weight is the enemy. In airplane construction, absolute
                                                    indestructability is not sought, ever. What engineers want is strength that
                                                    is adaquate for the design and lighter than anything else that could be
                                                    used. Also, Douglas Fir splits MUCH more easily than does Sitka Spruce.
                                                    Aircraft grade Sitka Spruce is very difficult to find now, most of it's been
                                                    logged off.

                                                    But as I mentioned in a previous message, the wood in the cedar strip canoe
                                                    is just there to hold the shape you want while you bond fiberglass over it.
                                                    Any wood could be used including white pine, as long as it's straight
                                                    grained and free of knots. You could even stain the wood prior to gluing
                                                    the strips on the form if you wanted to get fancy. You can get stains in
                                                    any shade or color you can imagine. (Please note, I've not heard of anyone
                                                    who's actually done this, I just don't see why you couldn't, and it would
                                                    certainly save money. But I have heard that cedar is lighter than pine)

                                                    Knots or sap pockets would be acceptable in the stock as long as you could
                                                    rip enough material that gave you enough strips. What I mean is, the knots
                                                    usually don't go all the way from one side of the stock to the other so you
                                                    can rip material up to the knot and have it knot free. This may mean that
                                                    you do not get your full length strip out of some of the stock, but that
                                                    might be acceptable to you if the stock is inexpensive enough that you can
                                                    buy extra to rip.

                                                    You can also go to some lumber yards and ask to cull through stacks of
                                                    clear, vertical grained material to get what you want. But you have to
                                                    smile nicely and catch them on a good day because they really won't like you
                                                    doing that, it means only the not so great pieces are left. I did that at a
                                                    lumbar yard once and got all kinds of help and a guy even showed me the pile
                                                    and helped me lift off pieces so I could get what I wanted. But the next
                                                    time I went there, I was served by a different guy and he not only didn't
                                                    want to help, he said I couldn't go through the wood at all, had to take
                                                    what was stacked or go somewhere else.

                                                    Around here there is one lumber yard that has specialty woods. They have
                                                    cedar, spruce, oak, maple mahogany etc etc. We also have a local, just
                                                    opened Home Depot and I noticed yesterday that they had a stack of cedar.

                                                    Corky Scott


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                                                  • J. R. Sloan
                                                    ... Canoecraft as an ... well be ... JR Comment: Scott is right--redwood is a good material for canoes, and is readily available (I found) in inexpensive,
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Sep 7, 2005
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, "Scott & Jane"
                                                      <scott.jane@c...> wrote:
                                                      > George,
                                                      >
                                                      > You might consider Redwood for your canoe. It is listed in
                                                      Canoecraft as an
                                                      > alternate material. It is plenty strong for the application and may
                                                      well be
                                                      > more available in your area. It will be much darker than cedar
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      JR Comment: Scott is right--redwood is a good material for canoes, and
                                                      is readily available (I found) in inexpensive, usable lengths. I and
                                                      a neighbor dis-assembled his redwood deck after years of use, so he
                                                      could re-do the deck. The salvaged decking was effectively free for
                                                      the taking, and with some judicious diagonal slicing to avoid knots,
                                                      we were able to scarf together some 20-foot 2x4s. These we ran
                                                      through a planer and then sliced into 3/8"x1.25"(or so) strips using
                                                      thin-kerf 7-1/4" contractors' blades on a table saw (like sawing
                                                      butter, almost). For planking, these became the raw material. At
                                                      their widest, ideal for bottom planking and the first several "starter
                                                      strips" on the sides.

                                                      Color, especially for older-growth redwood, is very dark brown; where
                                                      there was sapwood or younger grains, the yellow turned to a tan.
                                                      Overall, the color combinations give an overall impression of that
                                                      shoeshine color, cordovan.

                                                      I got best results with an initial sealer epoxy coat after the first
                                                      rough sanding: when it's squeegeed on and sets up, it immediately
                                                      stiffens up the whole structure. It's now a real CANOE!...and you can
                                                      start to smooth sand for the next coat, which will have imbedded the
                                                      first layer of glass. The object is both to seal the grain (which
                                                      will soak up an amazing amount of epoxy if a squeegeed-on sealing coat
                                                      isn't applied first) and to make the whole shape a whole--by filling
                                                      in the gaps between all the cracks that the wood glue didn't get to.
                                                      Until you've experienced this "stiffening" of your project the first
                                                      time, you won't get it. Thereafter, you'll always do it that way.

                                                      JR
                                                    • Don Moore
                                                      ... wrote: Hi all, I ve been nosing around all over the place and have run up against a block. Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards of the
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Sep 15, 2005
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        --- In cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com, Gwen Feero <hilmirsmom@y...>
                                                        wrote:
                                                        Hi all,
                                                        I've been nosing around all over the place and have
                                                        run up against a block.
                                                        Are there suppliers out there that carry long boards
                                                        of the cedar and other woods we need? Are you guys
                                                        lapping together boards to make the length? I've only
                                                        found boards of 6ft lengths, and would need to lap 3
                                                        together to make the 18ft required by the plans. Or
                                                        am I totally missing something?
                                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                        Hi Gwen--
                                                        Don't know whether this will help or not. I build woodwind
                                                        instruments and sometimes need straight grained, knot free cedar. I
                                                        usually go to the Revy lumber yard (a canadian version of home depot)
                                                        and pick up a cedar decking plank. If I get the right attendant, I
                                                        can usually get him to let me pick the plank I want. This stuff is a
                                                        full one inch thick (as compared to 1" nominal) and is very straight
                                                        grained and mostly knot free. If using it for strips, you would lose
                                                        a couple of 16ths on both edges of the plank when ripping, as they
                                                        are rounded off a bit on the edge corners. But what the hey, eh?
                                                        The only thing is that they don't come in very long lengths, so would
                                                        have to be spliced.

                                                        Nowdays, it's pretty hard to find knot free lumber anywhere, so you
                                                        unless you get really lucky, you might as well expect at least a few
                                                        splices or skarf joints in your strips to get the full strip length
                                                        you need.

                                                        Skarfing is not all that difficult to do with a bit of practice and
                                                        has been discussed in this group awhile back and I think there is
                                                        some discussion on it in the files section as well.

                                                        Good hunting--
                                                        --Don Moore


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