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Re: [ccd-newastro] CCD camera for C14

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  • Steven Orlando
    What you can also do is get a hyperstar, and image at f/1.9. Any camera would be able to image at that fast focal ratio and short focal length (about 700 mm)
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 5, 2009
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      What you can also do is get a hyperstar, and image at f/1.9. Any camera would be able to image at that fast focal ratio and short focal length (about 700 mm)

      We are using that at our observatory for widefield research imaging, and it is working out very well for us.

      Steve

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: george hall
      To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 8:03 PM
      Subject: Re: [ccd-newastro] CCD camera for C14


      I would look to see what others have done with a similar setup. Find a
      setup that produces results that you like and try to replicate it. I
      have a 12" LX200GPS and I use an ST-8XME and AO-8 at F10 (0.6 arc sec/
      pixel). Here is a link to my most recent image.

      http://web.me.com/georgedh/DeepSky/NGC2392_-_Eskimo_Nebula.html

      Here is another link to a C14 on a Paramount mount with an ST-8XME
      (0.57 arcsec/pixel).

      http://virtualtelescope.bellatrixobservatory.org/newsetupeng.html

      I don't think that you should be concerned about large pixels. I
      believe that you need to be imaging at 0.5 to 1.0 arc sec per pixel to
      take advantage of 2 arcsec seeing.

      Good Luck,
      George

      On Apr 5, 2009, at 6:19 PM, mplavlegl wrote:

      > What would be a reccommended camera for the C14 at F/11 and F6.3? I
      > seem to have read that the pixel size will half to be fairly large?
      >
      > Thanks Mike
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • ido12342001
      Hi, We are using a C14 at f/8.7 with a ST8XE CCD camera, for remote & automated research activities. Works fairly well. You can see several images that was
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 6, 2009
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        Hi,

        We are using a C14 at f/8.7 with a ST8XE CCD camera, for remote & automated research activities.
        Works fairly well.

        You can see several images that was taken by the system in the following link :
        http://bareket-astro.com/BAREKET_GALLERY/in.scope/base0.html

        Ido.
        http://bareket-astro.com/en.htm
      • Tom Picciani
        A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 6, 2009
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          A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.

          If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).

          1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.

          2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.

          You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.

          Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.

          Tom P.




          --- In ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com, "ido12342001" <ido12342001@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > We are using a C14 at f/8.7 with a ST8XE CCD camera, for remote & automated research activities.
          > Works fairly well.
          >
          > You can see several images that was taken by the system in the following link :
          > http://bareket-astro.com/BAREKET_GALLERY/in.scope/base0.html
          >
          > Ido.
          > http://bareket-astro.com/en.htm
          >
        • Michael Lowden
          How does a less than year-old CGE mount with the C14 rank as far as tracking goes.   Thanks Mike ... From: Tom Picciani Subject:
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 6, 2009
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            How does a less than year-old CGE mount with the C14 rank as far as tracking goes.
             
            Thanks Mike

            --- On Mon, 4/6/09, Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...> wrote:


            From: Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...>
            Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
            To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 1:04 PM






            A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.

            If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).

            1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.

            2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.

            You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.

            Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.

            Tom P.
          • Tom Picciani
            That was the QHY9 camera I was talking about, BTW. Looks like 8.6 megapixels, 5.4 x 5.4 microns. If you bin 2x2 you get almost 11 micron pixels for a 2.1
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 6, 2009
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              That was the QHY9 camera I was talking about, BTW. Looks like 8.6 megapixels, 5.4 x 5.4 microns. If you bin 2x2 you get almost 11 micron pixels for a 2.1 megapixel image. I think that image scale would work well for you.

              Tom P.


              --- In ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Picciani" <tpicciani@...> wrote:
              >
              > A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.
              >
              > If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).
              >
              > 1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.
              >
              > 2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.
              >
              > You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.
              >
              > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
              >
              > Tom P.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com, "ido12342001" <ido12342001@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > We are using a C14 at f/8.7 with a ST8XE CCD camera, for remote & automated research activities.
              > > Works fairly well.
              > >
              > > You can see several images that was taken by the system in the following link :
              > > http://bareket-astro.com/BAREKET_GALLERY/in.scope/base0.html
              > >
              > > Ido.
              > > http://bareket-astro.com/en.htm
              > >
              >
            • Randy Nulman
              Hi, I read some of the responses and would like to add my 2 cents: I think your first challenge will be the mount and it s PE plus other issues. Using an SBIG
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 6, 2009
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                Hi,

                I read some of the responses and would like to add my 2 cents:

                I think your first challenge will be the mount and it's PE plus other issues. Using an SBIG camera which allows for the AO unit would mitigate the mount's lack of optimal performance since the guiding is primarily done thru the AO unit (a tip/tilt mirror or prism unit that guides without much mount interference from mount issues.)

                Thus, I would suggest an SBIG camera which, to my knowledge, is the only factory offering an AO unit. This, again, will eliminate most of your mount issues. Then, if the seeing is good, you could go with something in the 9u range which will give you a resolution of .47 as/pix (very good if your seeing can get to the the low 2's fwhm. If the seeing is in the typical 3 fwhm for typical suburban sites, then simply bin and you will be at .94 as/pix but still have good resolution for your site and the AO unit will still deal with the mount's issues.

                Also, considering the small FOV your scope will provide at native FL, I think a larger chip will help quite a bit. Thus I am suggesting something like an STL11000...a proven performer with 9u pixels and the AO-L unit if this can fit your budget. (Perhaps a used version to help with the budget scenario). I think an ST8XME would give you too small a FOV and an ST10 would give you pixels that are too small for your scope. The STL6303 would also be a great alternative with a pretty large FOV, but it is an NABG camera so expect so blooming (which can be easily dealt with via software).

                You really will need help with the mount's performance and the AO units can do this quite effectively. I'm not trying to suggest SBIG as the only alternative as there are many good alternative camera manufacturers out there...it is just that I'm not familiar with any others that offer the AO unit scenario which I think is important in helping your ultimate guiding performance by eliminating some of your mount's issues.

                Hope this makes sense.

                Randy Nulman
                http://www.nulman.darkhorizons.org



                --- In ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com, "mplavlegl" <mplavlegl@...> wrote:
                >
                > What would be a reccommended camera for the C14 at F/11 and F6.3? I seem to have read that the pixel size will half to be fairly large?
                >
                > Thanks Mike
                >
              • Mike Dodd
                ... No personal experience, but while I had my CGE-9.25, I participated in a couple of groups having members who put a C14 on the CGE. The consensus was that
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 6, 2009
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                  Michael Lowden wrote:
                  > How does a less than year-old CGE mount with the C14 rank as far as tracking goes.

                  No personal experience, but while I had my CGE-9.25, I participated in a
                  couple of groups having members who put a C14 on the CGE. The consensus
                  was that the OTA weight made balance very touchy, and consequently made
                  reliable and consistent imaging difficult to achieve.

                  Have you considered the new CGE Pro? Costs $5,000 and is supposed to be
                  a big step up from the original CGE.
                  --
                  Mike

                  Mike Dodd
                  Montpelier, VA USA
                  http://astronomy.mdodd.com
                • Steven Orlando
                  Tom, That company is Starlight XPress. Adirondack Video Astronomy is their USA dealer (www.astrovid.com). As far as the C14, you should consider the hyperstar.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 6, 2009
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                    Tom,

                    That company is Starlight XPress. Adirondack Video Astronomy is their USA dealer (www.astrovid.com).

                    As far as the C14, you should consider the hyperstar.

                    Steve

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Michael Lowden
                    To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:01 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14


                    How does a less than year-old CGE mount with the C14 rank as far as tracking goes.

                    Thanks Mike

                    --- On Mon, 4/6/09, Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...> wrote:

                    From: Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...>
                    Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
                    To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 1:04 PM

                    A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.

                    If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).

                    1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.

                    2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.

                    You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.

                    Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.

                    Tom P.




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • george hall
                    Randy, Don t you think that the field curvature of the C14 will render most of the larger chips useless? Here is a link to the CCDWare field curvature gallery.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 6, 2009
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                      Randy,

                      Don't you think that the field curvature of the C14 will render most
                      of the larger chips useless? Here is a link to the CCDWare field
                      curvature gallery.

                      http://ccdware.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7421008431/m/4901089521

                      George


                      On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:57 PM, Randy Nulman wrote:

                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > I read some of the responses and would like to add my 2 cents:
                      >
                      > I think your first challenge will be the mount and it's PE plus
                      > other issues. Using an SBIG camera which allows for the AO unit
                      > would mitigate the mount's lack of optimal performance since the
                      > guiding is primarily done thru the AO unit (a tip/tilt mirror or
                      > prism unit that guides without much mount interference from mount
                      > issues.)
                      >
                      > Thus, I would suggest an SBIG camera which, to my knowledge, is the
                      > only factory offering an AO unit. This, again, will eliminate most
                      > of your mount issues. Then, if the seeing is good, you could go with
                      > something in the 9u range which will give you a resolution of .47 as/
                      > pix (very good if your seeing can get to the the low 2's fwhm. If
                      > the seeing is in the typical 3 fwhm for typical suburban sites, then
                      > simply bin and you will be at .94 as/pix but still have good
                      > resolution for your site and the AO unit will still deal with the
                      > mount's issues.
                      >
                      > Also, considering the small FOV your scope will provide at native
                      > FL, I think a larger chip will help quite a bit. Thus I am
                      > suggesting something like an STL11000...a proven performer with 9u
                      > pixels and the AO-L unit if this can fit your budget. (Perhaps a
                      > used version to help with the budget scenario). I think an ST8XME
                      > would give you too small a FOV and an ST10 would give you pixels
                      > that are too small for your scope. The STL6303 would also be a great
                      > alternative with a pretty large FOV, but it is an NABG camera so
                      > expect so blooming (which can be easily dealt with via software).
                      >
                      > You really will need help with the mount's performance and the AO
                      > units can do this quite effectively. I'm not trying to suggest SBIG
                      > as the only alternative as there are many good alternative camera
                      > manufacturers out there...it is just that I'm not familiar with any
                      > others that offer the AO unit scenario which I think is important in
                      > helping your ultimate guiding performance by eliminating some of
                      > your mount's issues.
                      >
                      > Hope this makes sense.
                      >
                      > Randy Nulman
                      > http://www.nulman.darkhorizons.org
                      >
                      > --- In ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com, "mplavlegl" <mplavlegl@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > What would be a reccommended camera for the C14 at F/11 and F6.3?
                      > I seem to have read that the pixel size will half to be fairly large?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks Mike
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • maxmsm
                      I had a C14 for a couple years. The coma becomes bad with larger sensors. I was using a 25mm square chip at the time. ... Sony chips are fine. I Believe the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 6, 2009
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                        I had a C14 for a couple years. The coma becomes bad with larger sensors. I was using a 25mm square chip at the time.

                        > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                        >>


                        Sony chips are fine. I Believe the reference is to Starlight Xpress.
                        Sony's sensors are also used by QHY and CCD-labs cameras. All have open loop cooling for a reason.
                        The Sony sensors do require that much cooling.
                        The dark current is low enough that temperature regulation is not necessary.
                        More importantly the number of hot pixels is much lower than almost all other sensors.
                        Dark frames are not necessary as part of routine calibration.


                        Max

                        --- In ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Picciani" <tpicciani@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.
                        >
                        > If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).
                        >
                        > 1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.
                        >
                        > 2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.
                        >
                        > You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.
                        >
                        > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                        >
                        > Tom P.
                      • Michael Lowden
                        Is there a way to calculate the optimum size chip for a specific telescope ie: C14. I am new to this and don t want to but a camera that has a larger area than
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 7, 2009
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                          Is there a way to calculate the optimum size chip for a specific telescope ie: C14. I am new to this and don't want to but a camera that has a larger area than the 6.3 C14 can handle. Or is the problem fixed with the imaging software,  for example would I just crop the image.
                           
                          Thanks

                          --- On Tue, 4/7/09, maxmsm <maxmirot@...> wrote:


                          From: maxmsm <maxmirot@...>
                          Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
                          To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:06 AM






                          I had a C14 for a couple years. The coma becomes bad with larger sensors. I was using a 25mm square chip at the time.

                          > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                          >>

                          Sony chips are fine. I Believe the reference is to Starlight Xpress.
                          Sony's sensors are also used by QHY and CCD-labs cameras. All have open loop cooling for a reason.
                          The Sony sensors do require that much cooling.
                          The dark current is low enough that temperature regulation is not necessary..
                          More importantly the number of hot pixels is much lower than almost all other sensors.
                          Dark frames are not necessary as part of routine calibration.


                          Max

                          --- In ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Picciani" <tpicciani@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          > A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.
                          >
                          > If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).
                          >
                          > 1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.
                          >
                          > 2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.
                          >
                          > You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.
                          >
                          > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                          >
                          > Tom P.


















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Tom Picciani
                          Question: Are you in possession of a C14 or are you contemplating buying one? If you are thinking of getting one, do you realize how heavy they are and what
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 7, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Question: Are you in possession of a C14 or are you contemplating buying one? If you are thinking of getting one, do you realize how heavy they are and what sort of mount you'll need to drive it effectively?

                            For my 2 cents, the largest aperture SCT that has a relatively flat field is the C 9.25. Field curvature on all SCT's above that is pretty severe.

                            Remember, there's always a tradeoff in optical quality when when applying optical correction.

                            Tom P.



                            --- In ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com, Michael Lowden <mplavlegl@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Is there a way to calculate the optimum size chip for a specific telescope ie: C14. I am new to this and don't want to but a camera that has a larger area than the 6.3 C14 can handle. Or is the problem fixed with the imaging software,  for example would I just crop the image.
                            >  
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            > --- On Tue, 4/7/09, maxmsm <maxmirot@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: maxmsm <maxmirot@...>
                            > Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
                            > To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:06 AM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I had a C14 for a couple years. The coma becomes bad with larger sensors. I was using a 25mm square chip at the time.
                            >
                            > > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                            > >>
                            >
                            > Sony chips are fine. I Believe the reference is to Starlight Xpress.
                            > Sony's sensors are also used by QHY and CCD-labs cameras. All have open loop cooling for a reason.
                            > The Sony sensors do require that much cooling.
                            > The dark current is low enough that temperature regulation is not necessary..
                            > More importantly the number of hot pixels is much lower than almost all other sensors.
                            > Dark frames are not necessary as part of routine calibration.
                            >
                            >
                            > Max
                            >
                            > --- In ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Picciani" <tpicciani@ ..> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.
                            > >
                            > > If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).
                            > >
                            > > 1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.
                            > >
                            > > 2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.
                            > >
                            > > You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.
                            > >
                            > > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                            > >
                            > > Tom P.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Michael Lowden
                            To late I already own the C14 with a regular CGE mount both are less than a year old. The way I am  understanding it is that if the camera is to large the
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 7, 2009
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                              To late I already own the C14 with a regular CGE mount both are less than a year old.
                              The way I am  understanding it is that if the camera is to large the edges of the image will be affected
                              by the curvature of the mirror. The CCD calculator does not address this? Please correct me if I am misinformed. Is there a simple way to figure the largest chip that will work with a C14 at 6.3
                               
                              Thanks Mike

                              --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...> wrote:


                              From: Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...>
                              Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
                              To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 5:01 PM






                              Question: Are you in possession of a C14 or are you contemplating buying one? If you are thinking of getting one, do you realize how heavy they are and what sort of mount you'll need to drive it effectively?

                              For my 2 cents, the largest aperture SCT that has a relatively flat field is the C 9.25. Field curvature on all SCT's above that is pretty severe.

                              Remember, there's always a tradeoff in optical quality when when applying optical correction.

                              Tom P.

                              --- In ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com, Michael Lowden <mplavlegl@. ..> wrote:
                              >
                              > Is there a way to calculate the optimum size chip for a specific telescope ie: C14. I am new to this and don't want to but a camera that has a larger area than the 6.3 C14 can handle. Or is the problem fixed with the imaging software,  for example would I just crop the image.
                              >  
                              > Thanks
                              >
                              > --- On Tue, 4/7/09, maxmsm <maxmirot@.. .> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: maxmsm <maxmirot@.. .>
                              > Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
                              > To: ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:06 AM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I had a C14 for a couple years. The coma becomes bad with larger sensors. I was using a 25mm square chip at the time.
                              >
                              > > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip.. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                              > >>
                              >
                              > Sony chips are fine. I Believe the reference is to Starlight Xpress.
                              > Sony's sensors are also used by QHY and CCD-labs cameras. All have open loop cooling for a reason.
                              > The Sony sensors do require that much cooling.
                              > The dark current is low enough that temperature regulation is not necessary..
                              > More importantly the number of hot pixels is much lower than almost all other sensors.
                              > Dark frames are not necessary as part of routine calibration.
                              >
                              >
                              > Max
                              >
                              > --- In ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Picciani" <tpicciani@ ..> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.
                              > >
                              > > If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).
                              > >
                              > > 1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.
                              > >
                              > > 2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.
                              > >
                              > > You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.
                              > >
                              > > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip.. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                              > >
                              > > Tom P.
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                              >



















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                            • Tom Picciani
                              MIke, George Hall mentioned a good link to an involved discussion on imaging located at: http://www.ewellobservatory.com/bestpractices/ I recommend you look
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 7, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                MIke,

                                George Hall mentioned a good link to an involved discussion on imaging located at: http://www.ewellobservatory.com/bestpractices/

                                I recommend you look into it.

                                From the video there are a few hints that bear on your setup:

                                There are 4 things that affect image quality the most:

                                Atmosphere
                                Optics
                                Focus
                                Tracking.

                                In my opinion you have 2 issues of most concern; field flatness and tracking accuracy.

                                I believe both can be mitigated a little with a focal reducer/field flattener. But you're not going to cut your f/ratio by more than half more than likely so you're looking at guiding at 2000 mm.

                                I'm very concerned about the loading of your mount and the accuracy loss due to the excessive loading on it. I've not heard good things about a c14 on a CGE.

                                I think that the best advice I can give is to perhaps find a webcam or some sort of video camera and inexpensively rig it to the scope. Use the demo of Pempro and see if you can track accurately enough to your taste. Pempro has a video input feature to test a mount via a video / webcam input.

                                At least you'll know where you stand before you start spending major dollars on a camera.

                                Tom P.



                                --- In ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com, Michael Lowden <mplavlegl@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > To late I already own the C14 with a regular CGE mount both are less than a year old.
                                > The way I am  understanding it is that if the camera is to large the edges of the image will be affected
                                > by the curvature of the mirror. The CCD calculator does not address this? Please correct me if I am misinformed. Is there a simple way to figure the largest chip that will work with a C14 at 6.3
                                >  
                                > Thanks Mike
                                >
                                > --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...>
                                > Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
                                > To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 5:01 PM
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Question: Are you in possession of a C14 or are you contemplating buying one? If you are thinking of getting one, do you realize how heavy they are and what sort of mount you'll need to drive it effectively?
                                >
                                > For my 2 cents, the largest aperture SCT that has a relatively flat field is the C 9.25. Field curvature on all SCT's above that is pretty severe.
                                >
                                > Remember, there's always a tradeoff in optical quality when when applying optical correction.
                                >
                                > Tom P.
                                >
                                > --- In ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com, Michael Lowden <mplavlegl@ ..> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Is there a way to calculate the optimum size chip for a specific telescope ie: C14. I am new to this and don't want to but a camera that has a larger area than the 6.3 C14 can handle. Or is the problem fixed with the imaging software,  for example would I just crop the image.
                                > >  
                                > > Thanks
                                > >
                                > > --- On Tue, 4/7/09, maxmsm <maxmirot@ .> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > From: maxmsm <maxmirot@ .>
                                > > Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
                                > > To: ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:06 AM
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I had a C14 for a couple years. The coma becomes bad with larger sensors. I was using a 25mm square chip at the time.
                                > >
                                > > > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip.. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                                > > >>
                                > >
                                > > Sony chips are fine. I Believe the reference is to Starlight Xpress.
                                > > Sony's sensors are also used by QHY and CCD-labs cameras. All have open loop cooling for a reason.
                                > > The Sony sensors do require that much cooling.
                                > > The dark current is low enough that temperature regulation is not necessary..
                                > > More importantly the number of hot pixels is much lower than almost all other sensors.
                                > > Dark frames are not necessary as part of routine calibration.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Max
                                > >
                                > > --- In ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Picciani" <tpicciani@ ..> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.
                                > > >
                                > > > If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).
                                > > >
                                > > > 1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.
                                > > >
                                > > > 2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.
                                > > >
                                > > > You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.
                                > > >
                                > > > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip.. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                                > > >
                                > > > Tom P.
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                              • georgeh630
                                I have an ST8 camera on my c14 with a focal reducer that ends up at 2180mm. That works very well, but requires flat frames to fix the vignetting always. I used
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 8, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I have an ST8 camera on my c14 with a focal reducer that ends up at 2180mm. That works very well, but requires flat frames to fix the vignetting always.

                                  I used my CGE for almost a year before giving up on it with the c14.
                                  It was not reliable enough to actually make pictures every night.
                                  Drove me mad with all the fiddling required to use it.
                                  I was determined to make it work!
                                  Actually it does make great pictures at 600mm with another scope.

                                  I now have an AP1200 to handle the c14 and it works great. It is very solid compared to the CGE. Now I can use it every clear night without fiddling with the hardware.

                                  Good luck in your effort, but you might want to try a shorter focal length with the CGE. 2000-2500mm is a whole different animal to control. Forget 3900mm! The moon and planets are fine with the short exposure required.

                                  Adaptive optics could help your mount (ao-7, ao-8 etc.), but I have no first hand experience to lend other than what I have read.
                                  I thought about it before spending the money for a mount that could handle my needs.


                                  Good Luck,
                                  George H
















                                  --- In ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com, Michael Lowden <mplavlegl@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > To late I already own the C14 with a regular CGE mount both are less than a year old.
                                  > The way I am  understanding it is that if the camera is to large the edges of the image will be affected
                                  > by the curvature of the mirror. The CCD calculator does not address this? Please correct me if I am misinformed. Is there a simple way to figure the largest chip that will work with a C14 at 6.3
                                  >  
                                  > Thanks Mike
                                  >
                                  > --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: Tom Picciani <tpicciani@...>
                                  > Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
                                  > To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 5:01 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Question: Are you in possession of a C14 or are you contemplating buying one? If you are thinking of getting one, do you realize how heavy they are and what sort of mount you'll need to drive it effectively?
                                  >
                                  > For my 2 cents, the largest aperture SCT that has a relatively flat field is the C 9.25. Field curvature on all SCT's above that is pretty severe.
                                  >
                                  > Remember, there's always a tradeoff in optical quality when when applying optical correction.
                                  >
                                  > Tom P.
                                  >
                                  > --- In ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com, Michael Lowden <mplavlegl@ ..> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Is there a way to calculate the optimum size chip for a specific telescope ie: C14. I am new to this and don't want to but a camera that has a larger area than the 6.3 C14 can handle. Or is the problem fixed with the imaging software,  for example would I just crop the image.
                                  > >  
                                  > > Thanks
                                  > >
                                  > > --- On Tue, 4/7/09, maxmsm <maxmirot@ .> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > From: maxmsm <maxmirot@ .>
                                  > > Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: CCD camera for C14
                                  > > To: ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:06 AM
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I had a C14 for a couple years. The coma becomes bad with larger sensors. I was using a 25mm square chip at the time.
                                  > >
                                  > > > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip.. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                                  > > >>
                                  > >
                                  > > Sony chips are fine. I Believe the reference is to Starlight Xpress.
                                  > > Sony's sensors are also used by QHY and CCD-labs cameras. All have open loop cooling for a reason.
                                  > > The Sony sensors do require that much cooling.
                                  > > The dark current is low enough that temperature regulation is not necessary..
                                  > > More importantly the number of hot pixels is much lower than almost all other sensors.
                                  > > Dark frames are not necessary as part of routine calibration.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Max
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In ccd-newastro@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Picciani" <tpicciani@ ..> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > A c14 at F11 will put a lot of demands on your mount. If your mount can handle the tracking demands then you can use the smaller resolutions of under 1 arc second/pixel.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If your mount is not up to the task or marginal at best, then you have 2 options (possibly to be used at the same time).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > 1. Get a focal reducer. I like the Optec .5x reducer for this task.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > 2. Get a larger array, perhaps the 8.3 megapixel cameras from QSI. That option allows you to bin 2x2 and still have a good resolution. You give up the ability to guide internally ala the SBIG system but QSI makes an off axis guider that mounts to their equipment and allows a guider camera to be attached.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > You could also go with an SBIG ST10 but that locks you into the larger pixels with no way to get down to smaller pixels. But then again, you gain the dual chip capability of SBIG's internal guider.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Note, there is another company with a brand named something like HSX or something like that which produces a similar camera but uses the Sony chip.. Looking at it, I don't think the cooling can be manually regulated or read. So you can't predict the dark frame performance which akes dark frame subtraction a little tricky.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Tom P.
                                  > >
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