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AutoMapperII, TPoint, and 602 points all EAST

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  • David Plesko
    For various reasons it was time to run a new, large TPoint model, large enough to do ProTrack justice. Please tell me that I did the right thing in deleting
    Message 1 of 5 , May 3, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      For various reasons it was time to run a new, large TPoint model, large
      enough to do ProTrack justice. Please tell me that I did the right thing in
      deleting and restarting a new TPoint model after spending all of last nights
      good seeing time mapping 602 points all to realize today that they were all
      on the EAST side of the meridian!!!??? I chose too big of a map point list
      in AutoMapper and my run terminated this morning having not ever gotten far
      enough in the list to get to points in the West. I assume a large TPoint
      model with all points on one side of the meridian isn't the best I could do?
      Please make me feel better about wasting another clear night tonite-or make
      me feel even worse for having deleted a dense east model that would have
      been fine.



      Thanks,
      David Plesko

      www.cherrymountainobservatory.com
      <http://www.cherrymountainobservatory.com/>





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Wodaski - Yahoo
      An all-east model will only work on the east side. If you were to try to do the west on the following night, it isn t likely to work out, and definitely won t
      Message 2 of 5 , May 4, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        An all-east model will only work on the east side.

        If you were to try to do the west on the following night, it isn't likely to
        work out, and definitely won't work if you shut down the mount.

        Best bet is to take the main lesson here: with those settings, you can do a
        600-point model at most on a single night. That's a really dense model and
        should be fine. If you are like most of us and don't image below, say, 35
        degrees, then limit your model to above that altitude (or whatever yours is)
        so that you get the benefit of a dense model in the part of the sky where
        you actually image.

        Ron Wodaski88

        -----Original Message-----
        From: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of David Plesko
        Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:40 PM
        To: paramount@yahoogroups.com; ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ccd-newastro] AutoMapperII, TPoint, and 602 points all EAST

        For various reasons it was time to run a new, large TPoint model, large
        enough to do ProTrack justice. Please tell me that I did the right thing in
        deleting and restarting a new TPoint model after spending all of last nights
        good seeing time mapping 602 points all to realize today that they were all
        on the EAST side of the meridian!!!??? I chose too big of a map point list
        in AutoMapper and my run terminated this morning having not ever gotten far
        enough in the list to get to points in the West. I assume a large TPoint
        model with all points on one side of the meridian isn't the best I could do?
        Please make me feel better about wasting another clear night tonite-or make
        me feel even worse for having deleted a dense east model that would have
        been fine.



        Thanks,
        David Plesko

        www.cherrymountainobservatory.com
        <http://www.cherrymountainobservatory.com/>





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        ------------------------------------
      • Neil Fleming
        That s an interesting point. Assuming one leaves the entire setup on, I still seem to be hearing that a T-point session still should not be longer than one
        Message 3 of 5 , May 4, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          That's an interesting point. Assuming one leaves the
          entire setup on, I still seem to be hearing that a
          T-point session still should not be longer than one
          night.

          Why is this? "Drift" due to less than totally
          accurate time measurement?

          Thanks...Neil

          --- Wodaski - Yahoo <yahoo@...> wrote:

          > An all-east model will only work on the east side.
          >
          > If you were to try to do the west on the following
          > night, it isn't likely to
          > work out, and definitely won't work if you shut down
          > the mount.
          >
          > Best bet is to take the main lesson here: with those
          > settings, you can do a
          > 600-point model at most on a single night. That's a
          > really dense model and
          > should be fine. If you are like most of us and don't
          > image below, say, 35
          > degrees, then limit your model to above that
          > altitude (or whatever yours is)
          > so that you get the benefit of a dense model in the
          > part of the sky where
          > you actually image.
          >
          > Ron Wodaski88
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of David Plesko
          > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:40 PM
          > To: paramount@yahoogroups.com;
          > ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ccd-newastro] AutoMapperII, TPoint, and
          > 602 points all EAST
          >
          > For various reasons it was time to run a new, large
          > TPoint model, large
          > enough to do ProTrack justice. Please tell me that
          > I did the right thing in
          > deleting and restarting a new TPoint model after
          > spending all of last nights
          > good seeing time mapping 602 points all to realize
          > today that they were all
          > on the EAST side of the meridian!!!??? I chose too
          > big of a map point list
          > in AutoMapper and my run terminated this morning
          > having not ever gotten far
          > enough in the list to get to points in the West. I
          > assume a large TPoint
          > model with all points on one side of the meridian
          > isn't the best I could do?
          > Please make me feel better about wasting another
          > clear night tonite-or make
          > me feel even worse for having deleted a dense east
          > model that would have
          > been fine.
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks,
          > David Plesko
          >
          > www.cherrymountainobservatory.com
          > <http://www.cherrymountainobservatory.com/>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          www.flemingastrophotography.com
          Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
          Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
        • Wodaski - Yahoo
          The most common cause of trouble: Diurnal heat cycle. When the scope goes through the daytime, some parts may get a little out of alignment in ways that are
          Message 4 of 5 , May 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            The most common cause of trouble: Diurnal heat cycle. When the scope goes
            through the daytime, some parts may get a little out of alignment in ways
            that are not part of what TPoint accounts for. I've tried the
            leave-the-mount-on-during-the-daytime schtick on several different setups,
            but in the end, I was better off with a single-night clean model than I was
            with a dirty model with minor variations from undiscoverable/non-recoverable
            causes.

            I also learned that you can't improve a TPoint model by going lower than you
            plan to image - in fact, you can make it worse because the interaction of
            issues on a consumer-grade setup and the complexity of trying to deal with
            those issues lead to modeling that has too much noise. The pros can get past
            this by spending a lot of time either writing equations to handle discovered
            flaws and issues, or getting the machine shop guys in to fix something that
            is fixable. That's the real reason that pro scopes point and track so well;
            they put an incredible amount of time and effort into refining the model
            that they start with and the scope/mount itself. I read a paper recently
            where a team at a large telescope discovered that temperature changes
            throughout the night were affecting pointing accuracy; if I recall
            correctly, they re-wrote portions of their pointing model software to deal
            with that. And of course, they had to install sensors to measure temp to
            even discover in the first place that temperature was the problem - how many
            things did they try before they realized what the source of the trouble was?


            Ron Wodaski

            -----Original Message-----
            From: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Neil Fleming
            Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:21 AM
            To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [ccd-newastro] AutoMapperII, TPoint, and 602 points all EAST

            That's an interesting point. Assuming one leaves the
            entire setup on, I still seem to be hearing that a
            T-point session still should not be longer than one
            night.

            Why is this? "Drift" due to less than totally
            accurate time measurement?

            Thanks...Neil

            --- Wodaski - Yahoo <yahoo@...> wrote:

            > An all-east model will only work on the east side.
            >
            > If you were to try to do the west on the following
            > night, it isn't likely to
            > work out, and definitely won't work if you shut down
            > the mount.
            >
            > Best bet is to take the main lesson here: with those
            > settings, you can do a
            > 600-point model at most on a single night. That's a
            > really dense model and
            > should be fine. If you are like most of us and don't
            > image below, say, 35
            > degrees, then limit your model to above that
            > altitude (or whatever yours is)
            > so that you get the benefit of a dense model in the
            > part of the sky where
            > you actually image.
            >
            > Ron Wodaski88
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of David Plesko
            > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:40 PM
            > To: paramount@yahoogroups.com;
            > ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [ccd-newastro] AutoMapperII, TPoint, and
            > 602 points all EAST
            >
            > For various reasons it was time to run a new, large
            > TPoint model, large
            > enough to do ProTrack justice. Please tell me that
            > I did the right thing in
            > deleting and restarting a new TPoint model after
            > spending all of last nights
            > good seeing time mapping 602 points all to realize
            > today that they were all
            > on the EAST side of the meridian!!!??? I chose too
            > big of a map point list
            > in AutoMapper and my run terminated this morning
            > having not ever gotten far
            > enough in the list to get to points in the West. I
            > assume a large TPoint
            > model with all points on one side of the meridian
            > isn't the best I could do?
            > Please make me feel better about wasting another
            > clear night tonite-or make
            > me feel even worse for having deleted a dense east
            > model that would have
            > been fine.
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks,
            > David Plesko
            >
            > www.cherrymountainobservatory.com
            > <http://www.cherrymountainobservatory.com/>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            www.flemingastrophotography.com
            Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
            Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!


            ------------------------------------
          • Neil Fleming
            Interesting. Thanks for the feedback! ... www.flemingastrophotography.com Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup Also check out the
            Message 5 of 5 , May 4, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Interesting. Thanks for the feedback!

              ...Neil

              --- Wodaski - Yahoo <yahoo@...> wrote:

              > The most common cause of trouble: Diurnal heat
              > cycle. When the scope goes
              > through the daytime, some parts may get a little out
              > of alignment in ways
              > that are not part of what TPoint accounts for. I've
              > tried the
              > leave-the-mount-on-during-the-daytime schtick on
              > several different setups,
              > but in the end, I was better off with a single-night
              > clean model than I was
              > with a dirty model with minor variations from
              > undiscoverable/non-recoverable
              > causes.
              >
              > I also learned that you can't improve a TPoint model
              > by going lower than you
              > plan to image - in fact, you can make it worse
              > because the interaction of
              > issues on a consumer-grade setup and the complexity
              > of trying to deal with
              > those issues lead to modeling that has too much
              > noise. The pros can get past
              > this by spending a lot of time either writing
              > equations to handle discovered
              > flaws and issues, or getting the machine shop guys
              > in to fix something that
              > is fixable. That's the real reason that pro scopes
              > point and track so well;
              > they put an incredible amount of time and effort
              > into refining the model
              > that they start with and the scope/mount itself. I
              > read a paper recently
              > where a team at a large telescope discovered that
              > temperature changes
              > throughout the night were affecting pointing
              > accuracy; if I recall
              > correctly, they re-wrote portions of their pointing
              > model software to deal
              > with that. And of course, they had to install
              > sensors to measure temp to
              > even discover in the first place that temperature
              > was the problem - how many
              > things did they try before they realized what the
              > source of the trouble was?
              >
              >
              > Ron Wodaski
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of Neil Fleming
              > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:21 AM
              > To: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [ccd-newastro] AutoMapperII, TPoint,
              > and 602 points all EAST
              >
              > That's an interesting point. Assuming one leaves
              > the
              > entire setup on, I still seem to be hearing that a
              > T-point session still should not be longer than one
              > night.
              >
              > Why is this? "Drift" due to less than totally
              > accurate time measurement?
              >
              > Thanks...Neil
              >
              > --- Wodaski - Yahoo <yahoo@...> wrote:
              >
              > > An all-east model will only work on the east side.
              > >
              > > If you were to try to do the west on the following
              > > night, it isn't likely to
              > > work out, and definitely won't work if you shut
              > down
              > > the mount.
              > >
              > > Best bet is to take the main lesson here: with
              > those
              > > settings, you can do a
              > > 600-point model at most on a single night. That's
              > a
              > > really dense model and
              > > should be fine. If you are like most of us and
              > don't
              > > image below, say, 35
              > > degrees, then limit your model to above that
              > > altitude (or whatever yours is)
              > > so that you get the benefit of a dense model in
              > the
              > > part of the sky where
              > > you actually image.
              > >
              > > Ron Wodaski88
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com] On
              > > Behalf Of David Plesko
              > > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:40 PM
              > > To: paramount@yahoogroups.com;
              > > ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [ccd-newastro] AutoMapperII, TPoint, and
              > > 602 points all EAST
              > >
              > > For various reasons it was time to run a new,
              > large
              > > TPoint model, large
              > > enough to do ProTrack justice. Please tell me
              > that
              > > I did the right thing in
              > > deleting and restarting a new TPoint model after
              > > spending all of last nights
              > > good seeing time mapping 602 points all to realize
              > > today that they were all
              > > on the EAST side of the meridian!!!??? I chose
              > too
              > > big of a map point list
              > > in AutoMapper and my run terminated this morning
              > > having not ever gotten far
              > > enough in the list to get to points in the West.
              > I
              > > assume a large TPoint
              > > model with all points on one side of the meridian
              > > isn't the best I could do?
              > > Please make me feel better about wasting another
              > > clear night tonite-or make
              > > me feel even worse for having deleted a dense east
              > > model that would have
              > > been fine.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > > David Plesko
              > >
              > > www.cherrymountainobservatory.com
              > > <http://www.cherrymountainobservatory.com/>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > > removed]
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > www.flemingastrophotography.com
              > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea
              > soup
              > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              www.flemingastrophotography.com
              Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
              Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
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