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Difficulty in imaging the Trapezium

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  • Kevin Dixon
    Good Morning: I spent approximately six hours last night collecting images of M42 in an effort to try to resolve the Trapezium stars, to no avail. At f/ratios
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 29, 2000
      Good Morning:

      I spent approximately six hours last night collecting images of M42
      in an effort to try to resolve the Trapezium stars, to no avail. At
      f/ratios of f/5.95 and f/3.75 (using the FR237 focal reducer) and
      exposures as short as 10 seconds, I was unable to avoid core burnout.

      I will be posting the calibrated images either later today or
      tomorrow morning for all to observe and critique but I am wondering
      in the meantime if anyone can offer some advice to me as to how to
      capture the Trapezium Stars.

      I am using an ST-237 CCD camera and a C-8 Deluxe telescope.

      The weather conditions were fairly difficult in that wind chills were
      below zero and the wind was gusting to 20 mph so getting steady
      images proved to be a challenge. The skies, however, were remarkably
      clear and BEAUTIFUL!

      All thoughts welcomed.

      Happy Holidays!
      Kevin Dixon
      ksbtk@...

      PS - I am going to post this message on the ST-237 e-group as well so
      please excuse the redundancy if you belong to both groups.
    • Ron Wodaski
      Short exposures are needed. With my setup, a 12-second exposure leads to severe blooming and core burnout (4 refractor), your 8 scope will burn out the core
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 29, 2000
        Short exposures are needed. With my setup, a 12-second exposure leads to
        severe blooming and core burnout (4" refractor), your 8" scope will burn out
        the core much more quickly. 10 seconds is therefore a really long exposure.

        Many stars as bright as the Trapezium, in fact, need exposures of one second
        or less in order to show up cleanly. You have anti blooming in the ST-237,
        so you can probably go a bit longer, but the core is also very bright, so
        you may be down to just a few seconds in order to control both the stars and
        the core. You can then use the masking technique in the recent Sky &
        Telescope issue to merge a short exposure for the core and a longer exposure
        for the rest of the nebula. You might even need 3-4 layers to pull it off.

        Ron Wodaski
        The New CCD Astronomy Book
        web site: http://www.newastro.com



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Kevin Dixon [mailto:ksbtk@...]
        Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 6:52 AM
        To: ccd-newastro@egroups.com
        Subject: [ccd-newastro] Difficulty in imaging the Trapezium


        Good Morning:

        I spent approximately six hours last night collecting images of M42
        in an effort to try to resolve the Trapezium stars, to no avail. At
        f/ratios of f/5.95 and f/3.75 (using the FR237 focal reducer) and
        exposures as short as 10 seconds, I was unable to avoid core burnout.

        I will be posting the calibrated images either later today or
        tomorrow morning for all to observe and critique but I am wondering
        in the meantime if anyone can offer some advice to me as to how to
        capture the Trapezium Stars.

        I am using an ST-237 CCD camera and a C-8 Deluxe telescope.

        The weather conditions were fairly difficult in that wind chills were
        below zero and the wind was gusting to 20 mph so getting steady
        images proved to be a challenge. The skies, however, were remarkably
        clear and BEAUTIFUL!

        All thoughts welcomed.

        Happy Holidays!
        Kevin Dixon
        ksbtk@...

        PS - I am going to post this message on the ST-237 e-group as well so
        please excuse the redundancy if you belong to both groups.



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        ccd-newastro-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      • desnar
        Hi Kevin I have just uploaded a file to the newsgroup of the trapezium. The details are as follows: Vixen 4 f9 refractor. Eyepiece projection 10mm Plossl.
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 29, 2000
          Hi Kevin

          I have just uploaded a file to the newsgroup of the trapezium. The details
          are as follows:

          Vixen 4" f9 refractor.
          Eyepiece projection 10mm Plossl.
          PixCel 255 CCD.
          20 exposures of 0.5 seconds using the autograb function.

          There are 5 stars clearly visible, with the 6th looking like a "bump" on the
          brightest star.

          The brightest star is A and I think the small bump on its limb is E.
          The faintest star near C looks like it could be F.

          I obtained these details from a chart of the Trapezium in our local
          Australian mag, Sky and Space (Dec 1995). The caption states that the chart
          was drawn by S W Burnham and published in Vol 49 of the Monthly Notices of
          the Royal Astronomical Society (1889).

          Best regards

          Dennis



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Kevin Dixon <ksbtk@...>
          To: ccd-newastro@egroups.com <ccd-newastro@egroups.com>
          Date: Saturday, 30 December 2000 12:51
          Subject: [ccd-newastro] Difficulty in imaging the Trapezium


          >Good Morning:
          >
          >I spent approximately six hours last night collecting images of M42
          >in an effort to try to resolve the Trapezium stars, to no avail. At
          >f/ratios of f/5.95 and f/3.75 (using the FR237 focal reducer) and
          >exposures as short as 10 seconds, I was unable to avoid core burnout.
          >
          >I will be posting the calibrated images either later today or
          >tomorrow morning for all to observe and critique but I am wondering
          >in the meantime if anyone can offer some advice to me as to how to
          >capture the Trapezium Stars.
          >
          >I am using an ST-237 CCD camera and a C-8 Deluxe telescope.
          >
          >The weather conditions were fairly difficult in that wind chills were
          >below zero and the wind was gusting to 20 mph so getting steady
          >images proved to be a challenge. The skies, however, were remarkably
          >clear and BEAUTIFUL!
          >
          >All thoughts welcomed.
          >
          >Happy Holidays!
          >Kevin Dixon
          >ksbtk@...
          >
          >PS - I am going to post this message on the ST-237 e-group as well so
          >please excuse the redundancy if you belong to both groups.
          >
          >
          >
          >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >ccd-newastro-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • KSBTK@HOME
          Good evening Dan: Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, I could not find the file. Can you tell me what you named it? So if I understand you correctly,
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 29, 2000
            Good evening Dan:

            Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, I could not find the file. Can
            you tell me what you named it?

            So if I understand you correctly, you gathered the image via eyepiece
            projection. Interesting approach.

            Clear skies,
            Kevin
            ksbtk@...

            From: "desnar" <desnar@...>

            > Hi Kevin
            >
            > I have just uploaded a file to the newsgroup of the trapezium. The
            details
            > are as follows:
            >
            > Vixen 4" f9 refractor.
            > Eyepiece projection 10mm Plossl.
            > PixCel 255 CCD.
            > 20 exposures of 0.5 seconds using the autograb function.
            >
            > There are 5 stars clearly visible, with the 6th looking like a "bump" on
            the
            > brightest star.
            >
            > The brightest star is A and I think the small bump on its limb is E.
            > The faintest star near C looks like it could be F.
            >
            > I obtained these details from a chart of the Trapezium in our local
            > Australian mag, Sky and Space (Dec 1995). The caption states that the
            chart
            > was drawn by S W Burnham and published in Vol 49 of the Monthly Notices of
            > the Royal Astronomical Society (1889).
          • desnar
            Hi Kevin Oops! Forgot to provide details of the file - sorry for the confusion! Here is the http address that should take you to the file directly
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 29, 2000
              Hi Kevin

              Oops! Forgot to provide details of the file - sorry for the confusion!

              Here is the http address that should take you to the file directly
              http://www.egroups.com/files/ccd-astro-imaging/trapezium.jpg

              If that does not work, sign onto the newsgroup at e-Groups called
              "ccd-astro-imaging" and select "Files" from the navigation menu on the
              left-hand side. On my screen, the file is called "trapezium.jpg" and
              happens to be the last entry on the list.

              Hope that helps!

              I grabbed the trapezium after I had been imaging Jupiter and Saturn with my
              4" refractor (Vixen ED102 f9) and PixCel 255 ccd. I had the Taurus Tracker
              II off-axis guider system fitted to the focuser, extension tube for eyepiece
              projection and a 10mm Plossl eyepiece and as everything was set up and in
              focus from imaging Jupiter and Saturn, I thought I'd slew to the Trapezium
              and see what happened. I was very surprised and pleased that an image came
              out, as the magnification was huge to get a decent image scale for the
              planets.

              I then used the auto grab function in CCDOPS to take 20 images of 0.5
              seconds duration each, the SW saves them to disk using a generic name and
              adds the extension 001, 002, 003....to 020. I find this a very useful
              function of CCDOPS. Next I used Christian Buil's free SW called IRIS that I
              downloaded from his site, and used a series of commands to automatically
              register the 20 images and then add them. So all in all, with the stability
              of the Vixen GPDX mount, the accuracy of the Skysensor2000 GOTO, the ease of
              use of CCDOPS and Mr Buil's free software the only value I added to the
              process was to set up the system and push a few buttons!

              Please let me know if you have any other questions, or problems in finding
              the image in the NG Files section.

              Cheers from downunder

              Dennis Simmons

              -----Original Message-----
              From: KSBTK@HOME <ksbtk@...>
              To: ccd-newastro@egroups.com <ccd-newastro@egroups.com>
              Date: Saturday, 30 December 2000 9:43
              Subject: Re: [ccd-newastro] Difficulty in imaging the Trapezium


              >Good evening Dan:
              >
              >Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, I could not find the file. Can
              >you tell me what you named it?
              >
              >So if I understand you correctly, you gathered the image via eyepiece
              >projection. Interesting approach.
              >
              >Clear skies,
              >Kevin
              >ksbtk@...
              >
              big snip
              >
              >
              >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >ccd-newastro-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • KSBTK@HOME
              Good afternoon Dennis: Thanks for the information. I will have to give this a try the next clear evening and see how it turns out. Clear skies, Kevin
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 30, 2000
                Good afternoon Dennis:

                Thanks for the information. I will have to give this a try the next clear
                evening and see how it turns out.

                Clear skies,
                Kevin
                ksbtk@...

                From: "desnar" <desnar@...>

                > Hi Kevin
                >
                > Oops! Forgot to provide details of the file - sorry for the confusion!
                >
                > Here is the http address that should take you to the file directly
                > http://www.egroups.com/files/ccd-astro-imaging/trapezium.jpg
                >
                > If that does not work, sign onto the newsgroup at e-Groups called
                > "ccd-astro-imaging" and select "Files" from the navigation menu on the
                > left-hand side. On my screen, the file is called "trapezium.jpg" and
                > happens to be the last entry on the list.
                >
                > Hope that helps!
                >
                > I grabbed the trapezium after I had been imaging Jupiter and Saturn with
                my
                > 4" refractor (Vixen ED102 f9) and PixCel 255 ccd. I had the Taurus
                Tracker
                > II off-axis guider system fitted to the focuser, extension tube for
                eyepiece
                > projection and a 10mm Plossl eyepiece and as everything was set up and in
                > focus from imaging Jupiter and Saturn, I thought I'd slew to the
                Trapezium
                > and see what happened. I was very surprised and pleased that an image
                came
                > out, as the magnification was huge to get a decent image scale for the
                > planets.
                >
                > I then used the auto grab function in CCDOPS to take 20 images of 0.5
                > seconds duration each, the SW saves them to disk using a generic name and
                > adds the extension 001, 002, 003....to 020. I find this a very useful
                > function of CCDOPS. Next I used Christian Buil's free SW called IRIS that
                I
                > downloaded from his site, and used a series of commands to automatically
                > register the 20 images and then add them. So all in all, with the
                stability
                > of the Vixen GPDX mount, the accuracy of the Skysensor2000 GOTO, the ease
                of
                > use of CCDOPS and Mr Buil's free software the only value I added to the
                > process was to set up the system and push a few buttons!
                >
                > Please let me know if you have any other questions, or problems in finding
                > the image in the NG Files section.
              • KSBTK@HOME
                Good Morning Ron and CCDers: From: Ron Wodaski ... exposure ... Would you happen to know which issue of S&T this was in? It sounds like
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 31, 2000
                  Good Morning Ron and CCDers:

                  From: "Ron Wodaski" <ronw@...>
                  >You can then use the masking technique in the recent Sky &
                  >Telescope issue to merge a short exposure for the core and a longer
                  exposure
                  >for the rest of the nebula. You might even need 3-4 layers to pull it off.

                  Would you happen to know which issue of S&T this was in? It sounds like the
                  way to go.

                  Clear skies,
                  Kevin
                  ksbtk@...
                • James Schenz
                  January 2001 Jim ... [Click Here!]
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 31, 2000
                    January 2001

                    Jim

                    "KSBTK@HOME" wrote:

                    Good Morning Ron and CCDers:

                    From: "Ron Wodaski" <ronw@...>
                    >You can then use the masking technique in the recent Sky &
                    >Telescope issue to merge a short exposure for the core and a longer
                    exposure
                    >for the rest of the nebula. You might even need 3-4 layers to pull it off.

                    Would you happen to know which issue of S&T this was in?  It sounds like the
                    way to go.

                    Clear skies,
                    Kevin
                    ksbtk@...
                     
                     
                     
                     


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                    ccd-newastro-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                     
                     

                  • Kevin Dixon
                    ... Per your recommendation, I have reviewed the S&T article on combining exposures with layer masks by Jerry Lodriguss. The techniques that Jerry uses to
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 1, 2001
                      Good afternoon Ron:

                      --- In ccd-newastro@egroups.com, "Ron Wodaski" <ronw@n...> wrote:
                      >Many stars as bright as the Trapezium, in fact, need exposures of
                      >one second or less in order to show up cleanly. You have anti
                      >blooming in the ST-237, so you can probably go a bit longer, but the
                      >core is also very bright, so you may be down to just a few seconds
                      >in order to control both the stars and the core. You can then use
                      >the masking technique in the recent Sky & Telescope issue to merge a
                      >short exposure for the core and a longer exposure for the rest of
                      >the nebula. You might even need 3-4 layers to pull it off.

                      Per your recommendation, I have reviewed the S&T article on combining
                      exposures with layer masks by Jerry Lodriguss.

                      The techniques that Jerry uses to create the mask and then combine
                      the images are done in Photoshop. Can Maxim DL be utilized to create
                      the layer masks and combine the images? If so, what specific menu
                      commands would be used? I know that is a LOADED question but I am
                      still trying to learn Maxim DL and would like to become proficient
                      with it prior to moving onto Photoshop.

                      Clear skies,
                      Kevin Dxion
                      ksbtk@...
                    • Ron Wodaski
                      Unfortunately, Maxim supports nothing at all along those lines. Even Photoshop only added layers recently. Ron Wodaski The New CCD Astronomy Book web site:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 1, 2001
                        Unfortunately, Maxim supports nothing at all along those lines. Even
                        Photoshop only added layers recently.

                        Ron Wodaski
                        The New CCD Astronomy Book
                        web site: http://www.newastro.com



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Kevin Dixon [mailto:ksbtk@...]
                        Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 11:37 AM
                        To: ccd-newastro@egroups.com
                        Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: Difficulty in imaging the Trapezium


                        Good afternoon Ron:

                        --- In ccd-newastro@egroups.com, "Ron Wodaski" <ronw@n...> wrote:
                        >Many stars as bright as the Trapezium, in fact, need exposures of
                        >one second or less in order to show up cleanly. You have anti
                        >blooming in the ST-237, so you can probably go a bit longer, but the
                        >core is also very bright, so you may be down to just a few seconds
                        >in order to control both the stars and the core. You can then use
                        >the masking technique in the recent Sky & Telescope issue to merge a
                        >short exposure for the core and a longer exposure for the rest of
                        >the nebula. You might even need 3-4 layers to pull it off.

                        Per your recommendation, I have reviewed the S&T article on combining
                        exposures with layer masks by Jerry Lodriguss.

                        The techniques that Jerry uses to create the mask and then combine
                        the images are done in Photoshop. Can Maxim DL be utilized to create
                        the layer masks and combine the images? If so, what specific menu
                        commands would be used? I know that is a LOADED question but I am
                        still trying to learn Maxim DL and would like to become proficient
                        with it prior to moving onto Photoshop.

                        Clear skies,
                        Kevin Dxion
                        ksbtk@...




                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        ccd-newastro-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      • Ron Wodaski
                        Picture Window is also worth a look; forgot to mention it: http://www.dl-c.com/ Ron Wodaski The New CCD Astronomy Book web site: http://www.newastro.com ...
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 1, 2001
                          Picture Window is also worth a look; forgot to mention it:

                          http://www.dl-c.com/

                          Ron Wodaski
                          The New CCD Astronomy Book
                          web site: http://www.newastro.com



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Paul Sterngold [mailto:psterngold@...]
                          Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 12:58 PM
                          To: ccd-newastro@egroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [ccd-newastro] Re: Difficulty in imaging the Trapezium


                          Paint Shop Pro support layers, and is hugely less expensive than PhotoShop.
                          I think it's still under $100. It doesn't have all the features that
                          PhotoShop has, but it's a good product. I think it's at www.jasc.com.

                          Cheers,
                          Paul Sterngold

                          --- Ron Wodaski <ronw@...> wrote:
                          > Unfortunately, Maxim supports nothing at all along those lines. Even
                          > Photoshop only added layers recently.
                          >
                          > Ron Wodaski
                          > The New CCD Astronomy Book
                          > web site: http://www.newastro.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Kevin Dixon [mailto:ksbtk@...]
                          > Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 11:37 AM
                          > To: ccd-newastro@egroups.com
                          > Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: Difficulty in imaging the Trapezium
                          >
                          >
                          > Good afternoon Ron:
                          >
                          > --- In ccd-newastro@egroups.com, "Ron Wodaski" <ronw@n...> wrote:
                          > >Many stars as bright as the Trapezium, in fact, need exposures of
                          > >one second or less in order to show up cleanly. You have anti
                          > >blooming in the ST-237, so you can probably go a bit longer, but the
                          > >core is also very bright, so you may be down to just a few seconds
                          > >in order to control both the stars and the core. You can then use
                          > >the masking technique in the recent Sky & Telescope issue to merge a
                          > >short exposure for the core and a longer exposure for the rest of
                          > >the nebula. You might even need 3-4 layers to pull it off.
                          >
                          > Per your recommendation, I have reviewed the S&T article on combining
                          > exposures with layer masks by Jerry Lodriguss.
                          >
                          > The techniques that Jerry uses to create the mask and then combine
                          > the images are done in Photoshop. Can Maxim DL be utilized to create
                          > the layer masks and combine the images? If so, what specific menu
                          > commands would be used? I know that is a LOADED question but I am
                          > still trying to learn Maxim DL and would like to become proficient
                          > with it prior to moving onto Photoshop.
                          >
                          > Clear skies,
                          > Kevin Dxion
                          > ksbtk@...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > ccd-newastro-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


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                        • Paul Sterngold
                          Paint Shop Pro support layers, and is hugely less expensive than PhotoShop. I think it s still under $100. It doesn t have all the features that PhotoShop has,
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 1, 2001
                            Paint Shop Pro support layers, and is hugely less expensive than PhotoShop.
                            I think it's still under $100. It doesn't have all the features that
                            PhotoShop has, but it's a good product. I think it's at www.jasc.com.

                            Cheers,
                            Paul Sterngold

                            --- Ron Wodaski <ronw@...> wrote:
                            > Unfortunately, Maxim supports nothing at all along those lines. Even
                            > Photoshop only added layers recently.
                            >
                            > Ron Wodaski
                            > The New CCD Astronomy Book
                            > web site: http://www.newastro.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Kevin Dixon [mailto:ksbtk@...]
                            > Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 11:37 AM
                            > To: ccd-newastro@egroups.com
                            > Subject: [ccd-newastro] Re: Difficulty in imaging the Trapezium
                            >
                            >
                            > Good afternoon Ron:
                            >
                            > --- In ccd-newastro@egroups.com, "Ron Wodaski" <ronw@n...> wrote:
                            > >Many stars as bright as the Trapezium, in fact, need exposures of
                            > >one second or less in order to show up cleanly. You have anti
                            > >blooming in the ST-237, so you can probably go a bit longer, but the
                            > >core is also very bright, so you may be down to just a few seconds
                            > >in order to control both the stars and the core. You can then use
                            > >the masking technique in the recent Sky & Telescope issue to merge a
                            > >short exposure for the core and a longer exposure for the rest of
                            > >the nebula. You might even need 3-4 layers to pull it off.
                            >
                            > Per your recommendation, I have reviewed the S&T article on combining
                            > exposures with layer masks by Jerry Lodriguss.
                            >
                            > The techniques that Jerry uses to create the mask and then combine
                            > the images are done in Photoshop. Can Maxim DL be utilized to create
                            > the layer masks and combine the images? If so, what specific menu
                            > commands would be used? I know that is a LOADED question but I am
                            > still trying to learn Maxim DL and would like to become proficient
                            > with it prior to moving onto Photoshop.
                            >
                            > Clear skies,
                            > Kevin Dxion
                            > ksbtk@...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > ccd-newastro-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


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