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Re: [cc2-dev-l] CC2 and PHP??!

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  • Jeff Cuscutis
    One good language would be Python. http://www.python.org It is easily embeddable and many applications use it. One example is Caligari TrueSpace
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 11, 2003
      One good language would be Python. http://www.python.org
      It is easily embeddable and many applications use it. One example is
      Caligari TrueSpace http://www.caligari.com
      It is an easy language to learn and has much online support.

      Jeff Cuscutis

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Simon Rogers" <simon@...>
      To: <cc2-dev-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:21 AM
      Subject: RE: [cc2-dev-l] CC2 and PHP??!


      > We certainly are looking for a new script language for version 8 - one for
      > version 6 would also be great. I'm not familiar enough with PHP to say
      > whether that's the one to go for. Does anyone else have an opinion?
      > Simon
      >
    • Jeff Osborn
      Python programs are also easier to read than, say Perl. Perl is practically illegible to anyone but the original author. How about creating an Java JNI
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 11, 2003
        Python programs are also easier to read than, say Perl. Perl is practically
        illegible to anyone but the original author.

        How about creating an Java JNI library interface to the existing API so that
        people can write Java (portable) applications for CC2?

        Java and Javascript are more approachable and have a lot of books that
        people
        can get their hands on to understand it. The one fault of Python is that it
        can be hard to pick up (although it is readable).

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jeff Cuscutis [mailto:cuscutis@...]
        Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:56 PM
        To: cc2-dev-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [cc2-dev-l] CC2 and PHP??!


        One good language would be Python. http://www.python.org
        It is easily embeddable and many applications use it. One example is
        Caligari TrueSpace http://www.caligari.com
        It is an easy language to learn and has much online support.

        Jeff Cuscutis

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Simon Rogers" <simon@...>
        To: <cc2-dev-l@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:21 AM
        Subject: RE: [cc2-dev-l] CC2 and PHP??!


        > We certainly are looking for a new script language for version 8 - one for
        > version 6 would also be great. I'm not familiar enough with PHP to say
        > whether that's the one to go for. Does anyone else have an opinion?
        > Simon
        >



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      • Gregory Simkins
        ... From: Jeff Osborn ... practically ... This is really a programmer problem not a problem of the language. The language allows users
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 14, 2003
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jeff Osborn" <twajjo@...>
          > Python programs are also easier to read than, say Perl. Perl is
          practically
          > illegible to anyone but the original author.

          This is really a programmer problem not a problem of the language. The
          language allows users to _quickly_ prototype. Sadly, many programmers take
          that to mean they can do it _sloppily_. Perl allows users to write in a
          variety of styles so that people from all programming niches can readily get
          up to speed using it.
          Well written code by a good programmer in any language is always easy to
          read and poor programmers can generate spagetti code out of the strictest
          languages.

          Just a side note: java and javascript share this problem of often sloppy
          code with perl - though not to as great of a degree - unless people use the
          instant code generators for web/cgi - in which case the effect is often much
          worse.

          -Greg, greg@... - http://www.fwpro.org
        • Gregory Simkins
          ... I noted in one of my previous messages exactly what I would like in a scripting language (net/db/text processing....) and how they were important to me -
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 14, 2003
            > the difference is subtle but I think it's important. Are there any
            > particular aspects of [insert your scripting language of choice here] that
            > make it particularly well-suited to CC2?
            >
            > Keith Mann

            I noted in one of my previous messages exactly what I would like in a
            scripting language (net/db/text processing....) and how they were important
            to me - let me see if I can make those more direct to CC2
            features/functions - and tie them to Python, Tcl, Perl

            As to exact cc2 things I would like
            -> Obviously: access to all the features provided by the current and
            soon to be replaced macro system. (Python, Tcl, Perl)

            -> Control over symbols, this would be most accessible if the symbols
            were called by name as objects. By control I mean movement, scale, rotation
            as well as properties such as color and text attributes. (Python, Tcl, Perl)

            -> Control over layers and sheets (which we mostly already have with the
            current macro system) (Python, Tcl, Perl)

            -> Access to GUI for creation/display of zoom windows and map notes. To
            allow dynamic/interactive atlas features. Would also be a first step in
            making cc2 a much more useful piece of in-game software rather than just
            pre-game. (Tcl shines here- python & perl both use Tcl's tk controls )

            -> Access to external data sources (using current DBI standards this
            could be anywhere - local drive or cross the world) so that map info could
            be stored in a more useful manner - also brings back some underdeveloped
            ideas from the old CM and the CoreRules Encounter generator. (Perl out
            shines others here mostly from the numerous reusable DBI interfaces already
            available)

            -> Searching and manipulation of text within map and map notes to
            include regular expressions - this tied in with the above GUI control makes
            for full utility in interactive in-game maps. (Again Perl, nothing else -
            well SED and AWK perhaps, comes close to perl in text manipulations)

            Perl, Python and Tcl are really the major players with the most support.
            Javascript lacks the power of true scripting languages as it is really made
            mostly for the web and not application scripting. VBscript/VBA is out for
            previously mentioned reasons (cost and multi-platform being key)

            -Greg, greg@... - http://www.fwpro.org
          • Peter Olsson
            ... My initial idea on using PHP was not because of its web capabilities. Most of the standard PHP library is of no use with CC2. However I find it fairly easy
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 15, 2003
              > As to scripting languages, I would love to see something along the
              > lines of perl, python or tcl. I would not recommend PHP as a
              > general purpose scripting language, I love it for what it does, but
              > it's really not the kind of swissarmy knife I would want in a
              > application scripting language. Javascript is also in this category
              > with PHP (and VBscript as well I suppose)

              My initial idea on using PHP was not because of its web capabilities.
              Most of the standard PHP library is of no use with CC2. However I
              find it fairly easy to learn and with a few additional libraries I
              think it could work well with CC2. Anyway I have dropped the PHP idea
              now...

              There has been several suggestions of alternatives. I'm only vaguely
              familiar with some of them and some I haven't heard of before (Lua
              and ECMA Script). To me Python seems one of the strongest candidates
              (it beats PHP :-)). From your arguments and a quick look at the web
              site:

              - Fairly common (at least many of you have suggested it)
              - Free license
              - Well documented on embedding and extending the language

              The main point in all this is probably:
              - Is Python easy enough to learn?

              Lua looks like it could be a strong candidate as well, but the web
              site gives the impression that it is a small project that might be
              discontinued with a short notice. To me many languages seem too
              complex for non-programmers to pick up or has problem with licensing
              or embedding/installing. Right or wrong?

              Peter
            • Simon Rogers
              What about Javascript/Java? That s free, cross platform and reasonably well known Simon ... From: Peter Olsson [mailto:peter@pkdata.se] Sent: 15 September 2003
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 16, 2003
                What about Javascript/Java? That's free, cross platform and reasonably well
                known
                Simon

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Peter Olsson [mailto:peter@...]
                Sent: 15 September 2003 22:10
                To: cc2-dev-l@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [cc2-dev-l] CC2 and PHP??!


                > As to scripting languages, I would love to see something along the
                > lines of perl, python or tcl. I would not recommend PHP as a
                > general purpose scripting language, I love it for what it does, but
                > it's really not the kind of swissarmy knife I would want in a
                > application scripting language. Javascript is also in this category
                > with PHP (and VBscript as well I suppose)

                My initial idea on using PHP was not because of its web capabilities.
                Most of the standard PHP library is of no use with CC2. However I
                find it fairly easy to learn and with a few additional libraries I
                think it could work well with CC2. Anyway I have dropped the PHP idea
                now...

                There has been several suggestions of alternatives. I'm only vaguely
                familiar with some of them and some I haven't heard of before (Lua
                and ECMA Script). To me Python seems one of the strongest candidates
                (it beats PHP :-)). From your arguments and a quick look at the web
                site:

                - Fairly common (at least many of you have suggested it)
                - Free license
                - Well documented on embedding and extending the language

                The main point in all this is probably:
                - Is Python easy enough to learn?

                Lua looks like it could be a strong candidate as well, but the web
                site gives the impression that it is a small project that might be
                discontinued with a short notice. To me many languages seem too
                complex for non-programmers to pick up or has problem with licensing
                or embedding/installing. Right or wrong?

                Peter



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              • Sam Robinson
                In my opinion, if we have an automation interface, then any of the mentioned choices is fine. I suggested Javascript way back in the beginning of this
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 16, 2003
                  In my opinion, if we have an automation interface, then any of the mentioned
                  choices is fine. I suggested Javascript 'way back in the beginning of this
                  discussion. I've been thinking about the uses of scripting, and am fairly
                  excited about the possibilities.

                  My feeling is that many of the mentioned choices are a bit obscure.
                  Javascript and VB Script are fairly common in the windows world, and java
                  script is common everywhere. It makes a compelling case for javascript in my
                  mind.

                  In other words, yes javascript is a fine first choice.

                  Sam Robinson

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Simon Rogers [mailto:simon@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:18 AM
                  To: cc2-dev-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [cc2-dev-l] CC2 and PHP??!


                  What about Javascript/Java? That's free, cross platform and reasonably well
                  known
                  Simon

                  [...]
                • Bruce A. Carson
                  I disagree. JavaScript is a HORRIBLE language. It is not strongly typed so every function call that you try to integrate with would have to attempt to
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 16, 2003
                    I disagree. JavaScript is a HORRIBLE language. It is not strongly typed so
                    every function call that you try to integrate with would have to attempt to
                    convert variable types both on the way into the function and on the way out.
                    The syntax is unclear and the implementations that I have seen the compilers
                    can't seem to determine where errors lie in the code.

                    Java is a better choice, but I don't think that it is any easier to learn
                    than C++. One of the targets in the original e-mail was to open up the
                    programming to less experienced coders and Java just won't do that.

                    Bruce

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Sam Robinson" <sam@...>
                    To: <cc2-dev-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:59 AM
                    Subject: RE: [cc2-dev-l] CC2 and PHP??!


                    > In my opinion, if we have an automation interface, then any of the
                    mentioned
                    > choices is fine. I suggested Javascript 'way back in the beginning of this
                    > discussion. I've been thinking about the uses of scripting, and am fairly
                    > excited about the possibilities.
                    >
                    > My feeling is that many of the mentioned choices are a bit obscure.
                    > Javascript and VB Script are fairly common in the windows world, and java
                    > script is common everywhere. It makes a compelling case for javascript in
                    my
                    > mind.
                    >
                    > In other words, yes javascript is a fine first choice.
                    >
                    > Sam Robinson
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Simon Rogers [mailto:simon@...]
                    > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:18 AM
                    > To: cc2-dev-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [cc2-dev-l] CC2 and PHP??!
                    >
                    >
                    > What about Javascript/Java? That's free, cross platform and reasonably
                    well
                    > known
                    > Simon
                    >
                    > [...]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: cc2-dev-l@...
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: cc2-dev-l-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Sam
                    Most scripting languages are pretty horrible, from a language purist s viewpoint. First, they are typically interpreted, rather than compiled. You are correct,
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 16, 2003
                      Most scripting languages are pretty horrible, from a language purist's viewpoint. First, they are typically interpreted, rather than compiled. You are correct, they tend to have weak typing (because the user community for them prefers ease of coding to ease of maintenance) I'm curious about your experience with Javascript compilers, as this is not a thing I've ever seen. I certainly would expect this particular version to be an interpreted script engine, rather than a JIT engine.

                      Having said that, this is the reason that I want an automation interface. If you prefer <language of your choice here> I would like for you to be able to implement it and give it to the rest of us. If it's truely that much better, then none of use would _want_ to use anything else.

                      But as a company, I suspect that Profantasy, or any other company, would prefer to implement a standard widely recognised language, something that most of the potential buyers would know about, even if they didn't know it personally.

                      Given that many of us are using C, C++, or assembler to do XPs I think that your comments about horrible languages might need to be reconsidered. Have you seen the kind of havoc that a bug in an assmbley level dll can cause? Any scripting language is safer than that!

                      I'm not looking for perfect here, just good enough.

                      Sam Robinson


                      > I disagree. JavaScript is a HORRIBLE language. It is not strongly typed so
                      > every function call that you try to integrate with would have to attempt to
                      > convert variable types both on the way into the function and on the way out.
                      > The syntax is unclear and the implementations that I have seen the compilers
                      > can't seem to determine where errors lie in the code.
                      >
                      > Java is a better choice, but I don't think that it is any easier to learn
                      > than C++. One of the targets in the original e-mail was to open up the
                      > programming to less experienced coders and Java just won't do that.
                      >
                      > Bruce
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Sam Robinson" <sam@...>
                      > To: <cc2-dev-l@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:59 AM
                      > Subject: RE: [cc2-dev-l] CC2 and PHP??!
                      >
                      >
                      > > In my opinion, if we have an automation interface, then any of the
                      > mentioned
                      > > choices is fine. I suggested Javascript 'way back in the beginning of this
                      > > discussion. I've been thinking about the uses of scripting, and am fairly
                      > > excited about the possibilities.
                      > >
                      [...]
                    • Gregory Simkins
                      ... well ... JavaScript doesn t seem robust enough to handle the job, also it lacks some basic scripting needs such as being embeddable and creation of gui
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 19, 2003
                        > What about JavaScript/Java? That's free, cross platform and reasonably
                        well
                        > known
                        > Simon

                        JavaScript doesn't seem robust enough to handle the job, also it lacks some
                        basic scripting needs such as being embeddable and creation of gui elements
                        in all os environments - there are platform specific libraries that
                        'supposedly' handle this, but I've seen very limited success on this in
                        anything but X Window systems - and there it uses a tcl/Tk extension to do
                        the work.

                        Java, while certainly robust enough, isn't really a scripting language.
                        Also as languages go, it isn't really any easier to teach or learn than
                        C/C++.

                        Side note:
                        Just happened across this between classes today (amazing what you can do
                        with a minute of searching while kids change classes :)

                        http://www.tcl.tk/advocacy/ <- it is unfortunately a biased page, but does
                        have a fairly accurate comparison chart of features (of course like all
                        'advocacy' charts they only list features inherit to tcl/Tk)

                        -Greg, greg@... - http://www.fwpro.org
                      • Simon Rogers
                        Whatever programming language we use, the FastCAD core will be doing the GUI work. Almost all code will be function calls to FastCAD. Simon ... well ...
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 22, 2003
                          Whatever programming language we use, the FastCAD core will be doing the GUI
                          work. Almost all code will be function calls to FastCAD.
                          Simon

                          > What about JavaScript/Java? That's free, cross platform and reasonably
                          well
                          > known
                          > Simon

                          JavaScript doesn't seem robust enough to handle the job, also it lacks some
                          basic scripting needs such as being embeddable and creation of gui elements
                          in all os environments - there are platform specific libraries that
                          'supposedly' handle this, but I've seen very limited success on this in
                          anything but X Window systems - and there it uses a tcl/Tk extension to do
                          the work.

                          Java, while certainly robust enough, isn't really a scripting language.
                          Also as languages go, it isn't really any easier to teach or learn than
                          C/C++.

                          Side note:
                          Just happened across this between classes today (amazing what you can do
                          with a minute of searching while kids change classes :)

                          http://www.tcl.tk/advocacy/ <- it is unfortunately a biased page, but does
                          have a fairly accurate comparison chart of features (of course like all
                          'advocacy' charts they only list features inherit to tcl/Tk)

                          -Greg, greg@... - http://www.fwpro.org







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                        • Simon Rogers
                          Mike? Peter? What do you think? Which language appeals? Simon
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 23, 2003
                            Mike? Peter? What do you think? Which language appeals?
                            Simon
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