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Re: Story

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  • lynano
    Great story, Piper. Thanks for sharing it. I read it at a most appropriate time. A friend of mine and I were just discussing this. I will share it with her,
    Message 1 of 13348 , Sep 1, 2000
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      Great story, Piper. Thanks for sharing it. I read
      it at a most appropriate time. A friend of mine and
      I were just discussing this. I will share it with
      her, she will love it. Thank you and peace be with
      you.<br><br>Lynn
    • ehlsmith@worldnet.att.net
      I will. Thanks.
      Message 13348 of 13348 , Aug 6, 2011
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        I will. Thanks.

        --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, Cecilieaux <cecilieaux@...> wrote:
        >
        > Check it out further. The work is part of a three-volume series (he's
        > working on the fourth).
        >
        > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 6:08 PM, <ehlsmith@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Thanks for asking, Cecilieaux. I don't think I have read Meier, or if I did
        > > it must have been back in the '90s when his first edition came out, and I
        > > wasn't keeping track of what I read. But your question made me re-read my
        > > source notes a little clearer the second time, and I see I made a very
        > > serious error. The book which impressed me most about non-biblical sources
        > > for the historic Jesus was not Bock's, but
        > > "Jesus Outside the New Testament : an introduction to the ancient evidence"
        > > / Robert E. Van Voorst. Grand Rapids, Mich. : W.B. Eerdmans, c2000.
        > >
        > > I apologize for my careless mistake.
        > >
        > > Peace,
        > > Ned
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, Cecilieaux <cecilieaux@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Thanks for your thoughts, Ned. Have you tried John Meier's "A Marginal
        > > Jew"?
        > > >
        > > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 2:12 PM, <ehlsmith@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > Dear Cecilieaux, Michael, and Nathan,
        > > > >
        > > > > Josephus's work not only mentioned Jesus, but also James, the brother
        > > of
        > > > > Jesus, who would have been a contemporary of Josephus when both
        > > supposedly
        > > > > lived in Jerusalem. The question about Josephus's work though, is
        > > whether
        > > > > parts were added by later Christian scribes. All copies existing today
        > > were
        > > > > produced by monks who made their copies after Christianity had spread
        > > > > throughout the Empire.
        > > > >
        > > > > One argument for the historical existence of an actual Jesus of
        > > Nazareth is
        > > > > based on the Nativity story. Many scholars consider the allegation that
        > > > > Joseph and Mary had to travel to Joseph's ancestral home an absurdity.
        > > Who
        > > > > would run a census that way? It would not only be extremely disruptive
        > > to
        > > > > the economy but would defeat some of the purposes of holding a census.
        > > > > Censuses are held to find out how many are living where, not primarily
        > > where
        > > > > did they come from?
        > > > >
        > > > > They see that story as just a plot device, to provide a Bethlehem birth
        > > to
        > > > > someone the public knew was from Galilee, since some scripture stated
        > > the
        > > > > messiah would come from Bethlehem. If Jesus was just a fiction there
        > > would
        > > > > be no need for such a plot device- just have him come from Bethlehem.
        > > It
        > > > > suggests that instead they were trying to tailor facts around an actual
        > > > > person who was from Nazareth.
        > > > >
        > > > > A book I recommend on the issue of non-biblical sources for Jesus is:
        > > > >
        > > > > Studying the historical Jesus : a guide to sources and methods /
        > > Darrell L.
        > > > > Bock.
        > > > > Bock, Darrell L.
        > > > > Grand Rapids, MI : Baker Academic ; Leicester, England : Apollos,
        > > c2002.
        > > > >
        > > > > Peace,
        > > > > Ned
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, Cecilieaux <cecilieaux@>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Oy,vey, M! That's a load of questions ... one by one, below.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:00 AM, michael quinlan <mpquin@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Dear C,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Wasn't Jesus mentioned by a contemporary historian?
        > > The
        > > > > name
        > > > > > > escapes me.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > You're thinking of Josephus. That's second (or third) hand. There's
        > > ample
        > > > > > evidence that there was a movement that told the story of Jesus, from
        > > > > which
        > > > > > Josephus gets his opinion. What there isn't is independent
        > > > > (non-Christian)
        > > > > > first-hand evidence of Jesus himself.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > Also, wasn't he mentioned in conjunction with Pontius Pilate?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > There's evidence of Pontius Pilate, who apparently go his comeuppance
        > > a
        > > > > few
        > > > > > years after the crucifixion. Imperial auditors found he was pocketing
        > > > > more
        > > > > > than he should and he was removed. But, again, there is no evidence
        > > of PP
        > > > > > and Jesus.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > I vaguely recall that his place in history was verified outside the
        > > > > Bible.
        > > > > > > Within the Bible, wouldn't elements of the divine be expressed by
        > > > > miracles,
        > > > > > > or were miracles also associated with those that were chosen by
        > > God?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Moses and a whole rafter of prophets performed miracles, without ever
        > > > > > claiming divinity. I'll leave Mary for a separate message as it could
        > > > > start
        > > > > > a whole argu ... um gentlemanly debate.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > C
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On Aug 5, 2011, *Cecilieaux* <cecilieaux@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > That's the teaching, from post-apostolic times on and, yes, who
        > > knows. If
        > > > > > you say the creed with belief, as I do, I believe in the God from
        > > God,
        > > > > > Begotten not Made, etc., without necessarily knowing how this is
        > > > > possible.
        > > > > > That's why it's called faith.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > It's important to understand that Nicea-Constantinople defined these
        > > > > things
        > > > > > in the way that became the norm in the development of doctrine: the
        > > via
        > > > > > negativa. The councils didn't add something that was not there (the
        > > > > trinity
        > > > > > is implied, by name, in the command to baptize in Matthew). They
        > > merely
        > > > > shot
        > > > > > down theories that were, in their view, not consonant with apostolic
        > > > > > teaching.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Now if you want to debate what we know about the natures of Jesus the
        > > > > > Christ, I would begin by arguing that he wasn't human since he wasn't
        > > an
        > > > > > actual historical figure, which is sustained by the absence of
        > > > > independent
        > > > > > evidence that the man ever existed. So there goes the human Jesus, or
        > > > > Yeshua
        > > > > > bar Yosif. Arguably, also, that Jesus (per the gospels) did not
        > > affirm
        > > > > his
        > > > > > divinity in an indisputable way. The full idea began to be expressed
        > > in a
        > > > > > developed way sometime between the Pentecost event and the conversion
        > > of
        > > > > > Paul, the man who arguably invented Christianity as a religion
        > > separate
        > > > > from
        > > > > > Judaism.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Of course, neither the divine or human natures of Jesus the Christ
        > > were
        > > > > at
        > > > > > issue before post-apostolic times, when the Christians began to rub
        > > > > against
        > > > > > the Greek mystery religions and the Church became definitively and
        > > > > > irrevocably Gentilized, losing many Judaic understandings that might
        > > have
        > > > > > been helpful to keep in mind later.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Cheerio,
        > > > > > C
        > > > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:36 PM, michael quinlan <mpquin@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Dear Nathan,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > As it was explained to me as a child, "Jesus
        > > is
        > > > > 100%
        > > > > > > God, AND 100% Man." But, this adds up to 200% in my book. How can
        > > > > > > something be 100% one thing, and yet 100% something else?? I think
        > > > > this
        > > > > > > falls into the storage bin called "it's a mystery." Do I believe
        > > it?
        > > > > Of
        > > > > > > course! What is the harm in believing it? It does not affect our
        > > > > society.
        > > > > > > There are no 200% beings wandering around that I know of.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > God Bless
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > On Aug 4, 2011, *Nathan* <rdnuclearmed@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Very funny.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I was asking if Jesus was divine? Is Jesus Christ, God?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > God Bless
        > > > > > > Nathan
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Cecilieaux <cecilieaux@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >> How would we be able to tell between truly divine and falsely
        > > divine?
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Nathan <rdnuclearmed@> wrote:
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >>>
        > > > > > >>>
        > > > > > >>> Just trying to stimulate conversation, I thought I'd ask: "Is
        > > Jesus
        > > > > > >>> Christ truly divine?"
        > > > > > >>>
        > > > > > >>>
        > > > > > >>> God Bless
        > > > > > >>> Nathan
        > > > > > >>>
        > > > > > >>>
        > > > > > >>>
        > > > > > >>>
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >> --
        > > > > > >> Cecilieaux -- blogging at:
        > > > > > >> Cecilieaux! -- musings of a contrarian <
        > > > > http://cecilieaux.blogspot.com/>
        > > > > > >> Desde Yanquilandia <http://desdeyanquilandia.blogspot.com/>
        > > > > > >> Headline du Jour <http://headlinedujour.wordpress.com/>
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >>
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --
        > > > > > Cecilieaux -- blogging at:
        > > > > > Cecilieaux! -- musings of a contrarian <
        > > http://cecilieaux.blogspot.com/>
        > > > > > Desde Yanquilandia <http://desdeyanquilandia.blogspot.com/>
        > > > > > Headline du Jour <http://headlinedujour.wordpress.com/>
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --
        > > > > > Cecilieaux -- blogging at:
        > > > > > Cecilieaux! -- musings of a contrarian <
        > > http://cecilieaux.blogspot.com/>
        > > > > > Desde Yanquilandia <http://desdeyanquilandia.blogspot.com/>
        > > > > > Headline du Jour <http://headlinedujour.wordpress.com/>
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ------------------------------------
        > > > >
        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --
        > > > Cecilieaux -- blogging at:
        > > > Cecilieaux! -- musings of a contrarian <http://cecilieaux.blogspot.com/>
        > > > Desde Yanquilandia <http://desdeyanquilandia.blogspot.com/>
        > > > Headline du Jour <http://headlinedujour.wordpress.com/>
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Cecilieaux -- blogging at:
        > Cecilieaux! -- musings of a contrarian <http://cecilieaux.blogspot.com/>
        > Desde Yanquilandia <http://desdeyanquilandia.blogspot.com/>
        > Headline du Jour <http://headlinedujour.wordpress.com/>
        >
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