Re: Catholic Questions Questions
- On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 5:31 PM, F Taylor <ftaylor1960@...> wrote:>>Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? It's the same idea.Ummmm, not really. That's kind of comparing apples and oranges.In every example given, the Bible is talking about living people talking to living people, and living people praying to God.Robin:
Exactly! Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive, even though they are physically dead since the God of Abraham is God of the LIVING.God BlessRobinThe one exception is the revelations passage, and it could certainly be argued that Revelations is full of allegory, symbollism and the attempts of a person to describe the indescribable. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the "holy ones" were dead people praying in response to anything they heard from living people. I don't doubt that saints who went to heaven are able to pray, but there's nothing I've ever seen in the Bible to suggest that God allows them to monitor what goes on in the land of the living or gives them the power to read our minds.
>>The Bible states that saints may approach God with our prayers.If the request was made before the saint died, sure. I'm sure that we don't stop praying just because we go to heaven. But I'd be interested in hearing what passage suggests that God allows living people access to the dead. There are examples of angels interacting with the living, and as I remember, Elijah appeared to Jesus. Other than that, nothing that I can recall. There is one example of the dead wanting to communicate with the living and God made it pretty clear that He wasn't going to allow it. Once you're dead, your connections with the living are severed.What is the different between prayer and conversation? If you're talking to me, it's conversation. If you're talking to God, it's prayer. Beyond that, things get a little less easy to define. If you talk to a dead person, what is that? Most people refer to it as channelling. If you talk to a rock, is it conversation? What if you expect that the rock can hear you, and understands? Animists would say that was worship. Christians would call it false worship. Asking for intercession from anything other than God is, at best, false worship. At worst...well...there are a lot less harmless things to ask for help from than a rock.People can't understand God. He's just too incomprehensible. It's only human that we would want to rely on something we understood better, these idealized Very Good People who will understand us back and who we want to believe have been given the power to hear us. But from the moment the curtain ripped, the time of relying on sanctified people to give us access to God was over. Still, people want to fall back on what is familiar, so they now have replaced High Priests with saints. We can't be bothering God with our communication, after all. He's much too busy.And yet, that's exactly what Christ told us to do. He even told us how to pray. To God. Directly. God loves us. When you love someone you want to hear from them face to face, not second-hand through someone else.Francine TaylorFrom: Big B <specimenb@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Questions
Let's discuss praying to Mary and the saints.
Be careful not to confuse prayer with worship. Prayer is a method of communication. Prayer is not worship, but through prayer we can worship. Catholics pray to (or communicate to) saints for the same reason we pray to Mary; to profess admiration and honor and for intercession. Never to worship them as deities. Prayer is how we send our requests and pleas to God and we ask Mary and the saints to pray for us. So, instead of saying we pray to the saints, it's more accurate to say we pray through the saints.
Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? It's the same idea. We ask Mary and the saints to pray for us. The saints are in Heaven and thus have achieved perfection. There's no reason to believe that their love for us and works for humanity stop when they reach Heaven. Many Protestants may say there is no intercessor other than Christ, but the Bible has several mentions of intercessory prayer.
(Romans 15:30) I urge you, (brothers,) by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf
(Colossians 4:3-4) at the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison, that I may make it clear, as I must speak.
(Ephesians 6:18-20) With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones and also for me, that speech may be given me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must.
(2 Corinthians 1:11) as you help us with prayer, so that thanks may be given by many on our behalf for the gift granted us through the prayers of many.
(1 Thessalonians 5:25) Brothers, pray for us.
(2 Thessalonians 1:11) To this end, we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and powerfully bring to fulfillment every good purpose and every effort of faith
(Acts 12:5) Peter thus was being kept in prison, but prayer by the church was fervently being made to God on his behalf.
(James 5:16) Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.
The Bible states that saints may approach God with our prayers. Because they are now perfect, their prayers or method of praying is now perfect compared to our imperfection. So, when we pray to Mary or a saint on a particular matter, we ask them to intercede to God on our behalf. The passage below shows the saints passing on our requests to God.
(Revelation 5:8) When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
--- In mailto:catholicquestions%40yahoogroups.com, surindras_fawn <no_reply@...> wrote:
> What about John 20:22-23 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
> 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
> Also Matthew 18:18 repeats the same phrase 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
> I am under the impression that what Jesus meant by I will build my church is the solid faith (rock) of believing that Jesus is the Son of god and through only him is salvation obtained. Because beforehand Jesus asked Peter who do you say that I am. When Christ returns for the Bride it will only be those who true followers who have note adhered to false doctrine or fleshly lusts of the world. I don't believe in the concept of having a Pope because I see no point in regards to the actual forgiveness of sin. If our bodies are the temple of Christ then we have direct access to Him and He has direct access to the Father in Heaven. This may come as a surprise to yo , but through research I can relate much of the Catholic church to ancient Babylonian worship.
> Fish on Friday and the mitre seem to be directly symbolic to the half man half fish god Dagon of the Philistines.
> The worship of Mary as the mother goddess - I cannot find anything in scripture to support praying to Mary. Furthermore, the Madonna and child seems directly associated with Semiramis and Tammuz.
> Whats with the bent cross staff that the Pope carries - In occultism a bent cross signifies mockery to the power of Jesus' blood atonement for sin.
> I find no mention of Purgatory in the Bible
> These are few of many suspicions I have drawn from Catholicism and would like scriptural references for why they are practiced.
> --- In mailto:catholicquestions%40yahoogroups.com, Patrick Miron <patrickmiron66@> wrote:
> > Nicely done!
> > Thank you.
> > I don't claim that it's metaphorical at all.
> > What you seem not to fully understand is that in Transferring His Godly Powers and Authority [which BTW] was an absolute necessity in order to actually empower Peter and subsequent Popes to actually run the Church /Faith He, Christ had just founded; God say's very clearly: "And I [Jesus; Your Perfect God] say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." Matthew 16: 18-19
> > This term to bind and or to loose at the time made direct and specific reference to POWERS of Governance and authority. PLEASE read the attached explanation of â€œthe keyâ€™sâ€
> > This is a extremely minor, even insignifiantÂ point without any direct effect on anyoneâ€™s salvation; unless one in error chooses to extrapolate this term to deny the Power and authority of the papacy. This at best would be a silly and improvable error.
> > God Bless you! Well done!
> > Patrick
> > ________________________________
> > From: surindras_fawn <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>
> > To: mailto:catholicquestions%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 10:22 AM
> > Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Questions
> > Â
> > What about the Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Scriptures translated by Robert Young? It states in Luke 11 Father, which art in the heavens..... and this was translated straight from the original Greek. Furthermore, Christ says "and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth," This is not pertaining to the fact that the Pharisees were too corrupted to hold such a title....It goes on to say that "for one is your Father, which is in heaven." I would argue that declaring the Pope to be holy father is an abomination in the eyes of Jehovah. Now I accept that Paul was metaphorically speaking when he spoke of children and father, but this was simply to be used as a tool of interpreting his message. Paul was stating that he was teaching them as a mature father (in Christ) would teach children. Another passage says "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
> > 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." So this was a metaphorical way of teaching the people his message, however I guarantee he did not take on the actual title of being called "Father" as priests and the Pope have done. God is the Father of all creation.
> > --- In mailto:catholicquestions%40yahoogroups.com, "Big B" <specimenb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Lets focus on one thing at a time because any of these can move into an
> > > in depth argument.
> > > Let's start by discussing 'father' and Luke's omission.
> > > If it were the Catholic Church's intent to deceive, they would have
> > > removed it from Matthew 6 as well. But the fact of the matter is that,
> > > in the original Greek, Luke's prayer does not include 'art in Heaven'.
> > > Only Matthew said that. That phrase gets added later at the mistake of
> > > Lucius of Antioch who created the Byzantine Greek NT from which the KJV
> > > comes.
> > > Christ clearly said in scripture to call no man father, so why do
> > > Catholics call priests "father"? To answer this, we have to understand
> > > the context of what Christ was talking about in Matthew 23. He's
> > > speaking of the hypocrisy and exaggerated status that the Pharisees had
> > > elevated themselves to.
> > > (Matthew 23:4-7) They tie up heavy burdens (hard to carry) and lay them
> > > on people's shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them. All
> > > their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and
> > > lengthen their tassels. They love places of honor at banquets, seats of
> > > honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation
> > > 'Rabbi.'
> > > Christ goes on to tell his listeners not to exalt them with titles such
> > > as father, master or teacher because they are hypocrites in their
> > > superiority. He says "we are all brothers" and no one is above another.
> > > However, Paul, Peter and John all refer to themselves as spiritual
> > > fathers and spiritual teachers and refers to the members of the church
> > > as their children. It's not used as a title of exaggerated status or
> > > honor. It's a metaphor in reference to the parental guidance the clergy
> > > offers to the members of the church.
> > > (1 Corinthians 4:14,15) I am writing you this not to shame you, but to
> > > admonish you as my beloved children. Even if you should have countless
> > > guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your
> > > father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
> > > (Philemon 10) I urge you on behalf of my child Onesimus, whose father I
> > > have become in my imprisonment
> > > St. John the Apostle calls the priests "father" in his letters.
> > > (1 John 2:13) I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is
> > > from the beginning.
> > > --- In mailto:catholicquestions%40yahoogroups.com, surindras_fawn wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why do Catholics refer to the Pope as the holy father when Jesus
> > > Christ says specifically in Matthew 23:9 9 And call no man your father
> > > upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Also the
> > > New Resvised Standard Version Catholic Edition - as well as the NIV
> > > removed which art in heaven from the Lord's prayer in Luke 11:2. Why
> > > were the scriptures changed? Perhaps so the Pope could be called
> > > father?
> > > >
> > > > Why do Catholics pray to Mary when the Holy bible never says to do
> > > such a things, but rather emphasizes that Jesus is the only way in all
> > > of the NT. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
> > > the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5
> > > >
> > > > Why do Catholics confess their sins to priests for forgiveness when
> > > Hebrews 4:14-16 names Jesus Christ as the High Priest that has direct
> > > access to the Father.
> > > > --- In mailto:catholicquestions%40yahoogroups.com, Robin rdnuclearmed@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ask away.
> > > > > On Jul 18, 2013 9:50 PM, "surindras_fawn" mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had some questions concerning the Catholic take on Christianity
> > > if
> > > > > > anyone would be so kind?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
- That Christ *could* relay messages if He chose, I have no doubt. But that He chooses to do so...no. I see no evidence in the Bible that Christ makes himself available to carry messages for people, living or dead. He certainly conveys the messages of God the Father, but to assume that He relays prayer requests from one person to the other, just so that the second person can relay to Christ or God a prayer that He had to have already heard (having carried it himself)...what an awkward, bureaucratic system that sounds to be. Not to mention a touch insulting...assuming that we can rely on our Savior to act as our messenger boy.>Robin:
>That's not quite how I was picturing it either. In any case though we know that the last will be first and>the lowest will be greatest (Luke 22:27). Who is the lowest in your picture?I see what you are saying, Robin. Carrying our messages would be serving us. Still, that doesn't change the fact that just because He *could* do so doesn't prove that He does. And what would be the point of Jesus listening to our prayers and then relaying them to saints so that they could give them back to Him? If He hears them he's already heard them. Is it your assertion that he is going to give these prayers more weight because they were directed to saints instead of directly to God?You can test the theory yourself. Pray to a brother or sister in a far distant place, and then find out later if Christ conveyed the message. Assuming that the message has not been conveyed (and that would be my assumption), to explain it by saying that the Lord only relays prayer requests from live people to dead ones...oh, and only ones who have been declared as Catholic Saints...that sounds as if you are making up rules in order to to prove something that we might wish were true but isn't necessarily.>Robin:
>I will not put the Lord our God to the test (Mat 4:7).Good answer :) And so true. But then you are arguing against praying to the saints...it's the same thing. You are asking someone who is not physically present to pray for you and expecting that Jesus will relay the message. How can the one be putting the Lord to the test and the other not?>But can the 'dead' hear our prayers? I would have to say yes. Not only from the fact that God wants us>to help each other but to know when someone needs help we need to be aware of what is happening.>The members of the Body of Christ who are already in heaven either know of the happenings on earth> through simply witnessing it for themselves (Heb 11 along with Heb 12:1) or from receiving the>prayers of those on earth asking for intercession (Rev 5:8).I couldn't see anything in Hebrews 11 or 12 that suggests to me that members in heaven are aware of doings on earth. Can you be more specific? That would be an important passage to consider.>Robin:
>These 'witnesses' are the OT saints (read chapter 11 to see). The fact that they WITNESS things>happening on earth tells us that they are aware of what is happening on earth.I'm sorry, I've read Hebrews 11 through from start to finish three times and then in several translations including the one from the catholic version, but I still don't see any mention of saints who are hearing things happening on earth. It talks about all the people in the OT who obeyed God by virtue of their faith, and what they suffered and accomplished, but no mention of anything that happened to them after they died, other than that God had prepared a city for them.>In Rev 5:8 we see 24 elders holding bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints, ie the>members of the Body of Christ. These elders know the prayers of those on earth and can therefore>offer there own prayers when they offer them up to God.This passage's details sounds symbolic, as is much of Revelations. I'd be inclined to believe the elders represent 24 groups, and perhaps the creatures as well.>>Robin:
>>The principal remains. Elders handed over the prayers of those on earth to the Lord. They interceded for>>them which is what we Catholics do when we 'pray' to saints. We ask them to pray with us and for us.But even if they aren't symbolic groups and the writer of this passage was seeing a vision of actual people in the presence of God, the elders are merely holding bowls of Christian prayers, and are offering their praises to God. There is nothing to suggest that their praises or prayers were being shaped by the content of the prayers in their bowls.>Robin:
>Prayers are not something we can physically hold on to. Therefore, for the elders in heaven to hand over> the prayers of those on earth to the Lord means that they would have to be AWARE of what those prayers>actually were and then hand those over to the Lord in the form of prayers from them to the Lord. That's>basically what we do when I would ask you to pray for my well being during a difficult time. You are>made aware of my predicament and then procede to pray for my well being.But they don't hand them over. They just "hold" them. In a bowl. If prayers aren't something that can physically be held they certainly can't be held in a bowl. It's symbolic.(And as an aside, even if they did hand them over that wouldn't guarantee that they knew anything about what they were "made" of. I could hold a package, and hand it over to someone else without being aware of the contents or its composition. Or adding to it.)The bowls are filled with incense which is peoples' prayers. The vision seen by the writer was trying to convey that the prayers of God's people are pleasing to him (the "scent" of them being sweet to his senses). It could be that the elders represent 24 specific groups of people, be they ethnic or locational or ideological groups, and the bowls represent all the prayers that these groups of people have prayed in their lifetimes. If these elders had been meant to represent all the Saints they would have been described as hundreds, or a multitude, not just 24 "people".