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Catholic Questions Re: Question about Matt. 16:18

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  • ptr_warlock
    What evidence is there of a purgatory, as compared with Earth Heaven and Hell. Who needs purgatory? Where is it referenced in scripture. Is the whole concept
    Message 1 of 281 , Jan 1, 2012
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      What evidence is there of a purgatory, as compared with Earth Heaven and Hell. Who needs purgatory? Where is it referenced in scripture.

      Is the whole concept of Heaven and Hell also a matter of imagery? Or are they supposed to be outside this "infinite" Universe we can scan with our telescopes?

      --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "will" <willpenrhiw@...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes.
      >
      > But between here and Heaven lies Purgatory where the sinners (on Earth) have the
      > opportunity to repent and see the error of their previous earthly deeds. If they
      > don't "see their earthly errors" they won't go to Heaven!
      >
      > Will
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "michael quinlan" <mpquin@...>
      > To: <catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 3:25 PM
      > Subject: Re: Re: Catholic Questions Re: Question about Matt. 16:18
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Let me explain what j.s. is alluding to: God's Infinite Mercy. If God so
      > > desires to have Adolf Hitler in Heaven who are we to say otherwise? Remember
      > > the story of the vineyard and the worker who complained about someone who did
      > > not work as long as he, but got paid more? The answer: it is my money and I
      > > will do what I like with it. It is God's Mercy and He will do what He likes
      > > with it. Does that mean that we will all receive mercy? If so, what is the
      > > point of having a savior die on the cross? Could it be that we are all (born
      > > and re-born) going to Heaven?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • j.s299
      To the contrary of dear Robert s silliness: Paul expresses what he means by words he uses. By the rest of the words he writes. Robert says the Essenes or
      Message 281 of 281 , Jan 13, 2012
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        To the contrary of dear Robert's silliness:
        Paul expresses what he means by words he uses. By the rest of the words he writes. Robert says the Essenes or so-called 'Church Fathers' or John Bergsma are better than the source-documents themselves, to understand the source-documents (the Scriptures).
        This is the difference between Catholicism and those who at least admit that God's Scripture is His (inerrant) top written authority.

        My personal studies have led me to conclude without reservation that, even though in some matters the early 'Church Fathers' deviated from the apostles' teaching, they of course were definitely not yet 'Catholic.' As such an organization as we know it today didn't fully exist then.

        In any case, Robert doesn't bother himself to address Paul's elaboration of "the law" in Rm 2, 3, and 7, as quoted below. Perhaps because Paul's not worth studying to Robert; or Robert cannot remember John Bergsma's or others' (mis)interpretation of Paul---or they don't bother either.

        --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, Robert Stevenson <rlstevensonrocks@...> wrote:
        >
        > Paul is not here to interpret his own term in Romans, only those who choose to use it to their own personal advantage.
        > My personal studies of the early Church Fathers have led me to conclude without reservation that they were all very Catholic. They shed a bright light on how to understand what the apostles meant to say, because they personally KNEW or were appointed by them!
        >
        > With regard to the Dead Sea Scrolls and the "Works of the law" in which Paul refers to. I suggest some reading of some of the works from Dr. John Bergsma http://johnbergsma.com/
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: j.s299 <j.s299@...>
        > To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 5:09 PM
        > Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Romans 3:28
        >
        >
        >  
        > To the contrary of Robert's misunderstanding and misinterpretation,
        > Paul is the first and primary and direct one to interpret his own term in Romans. Not the Essenes.
        >
        > As Paul himself defines the law he refers to, to the Romans:
        > "The law had said, You shall not covet"
        > Rm 7:7
        > "The law...the law...Not to steal...Not to commit adultery...the law"
        > 2:17-23.
        > These are the works of the law. The keeping of the law. As Paul himself, devoutly, religiously, tried to keep before He received Christ. And failed. As in Romans 7:7-25.
        >
        > No doubt the Jewish law also included ceremonial things.
        > Like circumcision and diet (and also days---the sabbath),
        > (which are annulled, Col 2:14, by being replaced with Christ and Christ's Spirit, Col 2:17-20; Mt 5:17-20; Philip 3:2-3).
        >
        > But that is Not the emphasis of the law in Romans concerning condemnation and justification. The ceremonial law is not the law that even nonjews had and have "written in their hearts," Rm 2:14-15; but rather the moral law, basic morality, which can be called the natural law. To treat others as you'd want to be treated.
        >
        > Jewish (moral) law IS God's law. We're not justified (forgiven, initially, to become born of Christ Jesus' Spirit, Rm 3:28)
        > by keeping this law because a) we were born failures, b) we already failed, and c) without God--in us--as the law of the Spirit of Life, Rm 8:2--we're unable to fulfill it. Rather we're justified to 'start over,' begin again, be born again---this time with Another Life--through faith alone. Rm 3:28; 4:2-6; Jn 6:28-29. Because there are no works we can obey or perform without God, to deserve to receive God.
        >
        > Robert's religion is just one of law keeping. Which both can never work, and is consequently an insult to grace. Who is Christ.
        >
        > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, Robert Stevenson <rlstevensonrocks@> wrote:
        > >
        > > "The deeds/works of the law" (also in Gal 2:16) are very unique in Paul's use of the term. It is only known to exist with Paul's references and in the Dead sea scrolls, which has shed new light on the phrase "Works of the law". 
        > > The works of the law that are referred to by the Essenes in the Dead Sea scrolls, show a very concise correlation to the Jewish custom/purity laws. These consist of which include things such as: Keeping away from Gentiles, no dogs allowed in Jerusalem, purity of liquids from one vessel to another (had to be the same type), deaf & blind not allowed in Temple, laws regarding lepers, etc...
        > >
        > > Confessing our belief in the Lord means that we change our habits and lifestyles, not just confess. Far too many scriptures refer to this aspect and Paul makes it the most clear in the book of James.
        > > Jesus himself when asked how to be saved, His reply is be Baptized by water & Fire/Spirit (John 3:5) and also asks that we partake of His Body & Blood (John 6).
        > > We also see when all is said and done on Judgement day (Matt 25), those who will be saved are ONLY those who can answer yes to the series of questions. Did you feed me when I was hungry, clothe me when I was naked, visit me in prison, or when I was sick, invite me in when I was a stranger...etc, These questions were not a matter of simple belief, but of works. 
        > > The thief on the cross is often brought up as an example of simply calling on the name of Jesus. What they might miss is the fact he confesses his sins, defends Christ from the verbal attack of the other thief, and then asks Christ into his heart....no doubt Christ is Mercy and knows our heart well enough to know our sincerity and can distinguish between true love & repentance vs. fear of judgement.
        > >
        > > Praise God for our loving merciful Savior!
        > >
        > > Robert
        > >
        > >
        > > From: j.s299 <j.s299@>
        > > To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 1:46 PM
        > > Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Romans 3:28
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > > "Kingdom of the heavens" doesn't mean 'heaven.'
        > > Though now may be a chance for you too to help me.
        > > What do you mean by 'heaven'? And 'going to heaven'?
        > > Especially if you have any Scriptures in mind.
        > >
        > > "The Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near" I quoted. Does that mean to you that heaven as a big or invisible place, or 'chance,' had descended when John began to preach, when Jesus was around 30 years old?
        > >
        > > You talk about 'obedience, doing the Father's will.'
        > > When Joel and Peter and Paul, for instance, say and write that
        > > "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"
        > > and "If you confess with your mouth Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you'll be saved. For with the heart there's believing unto righteousness [justification] and with the mouth confession unto salvation"----are you saying that is an example of obedience? That to call on and confess the name of Jesus as your Lord is the Father's will?
        > > That they aren't obedience or the Father's will?
        > > At least not your 'serious obedience'?
        > > Not seriously the Father's will?
        > >
        > > What you degrade and deride as a 'password,' the apostle wrote:
        > > "God bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"
        > > Philip 2:9-11.
        > >
        > > I'll repeat this point once more, since you either missed it, ignore it, or don't comprehend it: Mt 7:21's judgment is not the 'final' judgment. It is rather the Lord's judgment of His saints. At His judgment seat. As in Rom 14 and 2 Cor 5. Of Christians. Of God's children. In the "resurrection of life" of John 5.
        > > For reward or punishment. Punishment which is severe and long. But temporary. You're correct that such believers, who did things in their Christian life unauthorized, 'unknown' by the Lord, will be cast out of His presence then.
        > > This is not the "resurrection of judgment" in John 5. Which is separate. And which, in Rev 20---the great white throne----is the 'final' judgment. Of all those not justified by faith (Rm 3; Ac 13). Those not born of the Spirit.
        > >
        > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, Robin <rdnuclearmed@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Ok now you've lost me. Heaven doesn't mean heaven? What on earth are you
        > > > talking about?
        > > >
        > > > "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of
        > > > heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
        > > > (NIV)
        > > >
        > > > Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
        > > > of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (KJV)
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Knowing the correct passwordâ€"saying 'Master, Master,' for instanceâ€" isn't
        > > > going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious
        > > > obedienceâ€"doing what my Father wills. I can see it nowâ€"at the Final
        > > > Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, 'Master, we preached the
        > > > Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone
        > > > talking.' And do you know what I am going to say? 'You missed the boat. All
        > > > you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one
        > > > bit. You're out of here.' (MSG)
        > > >
        > > > God Bless
        > > > Robin
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 1:49 PM, j.s299 <j.s299@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > **
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Matthew 7:21 does not read Robin's mythical 'WILL NOT enter HEAVEN.'
        > > > > Instead Jesus said: "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter
        > > > > into THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS, but he who does the will of My Father who
        > > > > is in the heavens."
        > > > >
        > > > > The kingdom of the heavens is not heaven as a location, or place. Nor
        > > > > destiny. Nor eternal abode. The New Testament concludes with Christ and His
        > > > > Bride (and Body----much more than His mere 'friend') coming DOWN out of
        > > > > heaven. The kingdom of the heavens is Matthew's unique expression, in his
        > > > > gospel. And reminiscient of a phrase from Daniel. Its first mention is Mt
        > > > > 3:1 when John the Baptist appeared preaching and saying "Repent [turn,
        > > > > change your mind----not Catholicism's mythical 'do penance'], for the
        > > > > kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.' In brief, the kingdom of the
        > > > > heavens is Christ Himself, His personal direct living rule over and then
        > > > > inside His believers. Not just in justification, to be born anew, but
        > > > > proceeding to taking up residence in the entire soul and human being of His
        > > > > believer. Including, when He returns, His reward of "entering into His joy"
        > > > > and ruling and reigning and being with Him physically. That future aspect,
        > > > > in specific, is the "kingdom of the heavens" in Matthew 7:21. Since it
        > > > > takes place when Christ is physically present to judge His believers. "THAT
        > > > > DAY" 7:22. The "I never knew you" = I never approved you. As in authorizing
        > > > > their conduct as described in 7:22. And those believers must leave His
        > > > > presence. For discipline. Yet will "be saved." Exactly as in 1 Cor 3 where
        > > > > He also will judge all His believers (not nonbelievers) for how we've built
        > > > > upon His foundation.
        > > > > "Saved, yet so as through fire."
        > > > >
        > > > > 1 Tim 5:8 is about believers, just as 2 Pet 2:20-22 is. Neither is about
        > > > > eternal damnation. Both are about a worse state IN THIS LIFE. Worse in
        > > > > condition and expression than even an unbeliever. Such a thought is also
        > > > > repeated by Paul in 1 Cor 5:1-11. Where a brother fornicates apparently
        > > > > with his stepmom. There too Paul talks severely about discipline. Even
        > > > > "delivering such a one to Satan." But that person is still born of God.
        > > > > Never 'de-born.' Always saved from eternal condemnation. Just as Paul
        > > > > writes: "To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh,
        > > > > that his spirit may be SAVED in the day of the Lord."
        > > > >
        > > > > If any Catholicism pedophile 'priest,' for example, is also a believer
        > > > > into Christ, then that is an example of one who is "worse than an
        > > > > unbeliever," "whose last state has become worse for them than the first,"
        > > > > "the dog who has turned to its own vomit."
        > > > > The "vomit" is not the lake of fire for eternity!!
        > > > > The "vomit" is their condition, and living, and sin, and expression, in
        > > > > this life.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, Robin <rdnuclearmed@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:12 PM, j.s299 <j.s299@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > **
        > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > To the contrary, dear Robin, I noticed Ephesians 2:10.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Ephesians 2's "saved" (2:8) matches Romans 3:20's and 4:2's
        > > > > "justified."
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > They are completely apart from doing works to earn them.
        > > > > > > "By grace you have been saved through faith, and this NOT of
        > > > > yourselves;
        > > > > > > it is the gift of God; NOT of works that no one should boast"
        > > > > > > "Even when we were dead in offenses, [God] made us alive together with
        > > > > > > Christ (by grace you have been saved"
        > > > > > > "If Abraham was justified out of works, he has something to boast in,
        > > > > but
        > > > > > > not before God..."
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Ephesians 2:10's "good works" are the result and issue of the above
        > > > > > > salvation, justification. Not the cause or co-cause or reason.
        > > > > > > It is likewise God's will that people believe into His Son freely,
        > > > > without
        > > > > > > works, to be saved from sin, condemnation, and into regeneration.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Now if a dear believer, chosen one, child of God, does not live for
        > > > > Christ
        > > > > > > or do God's works after His justification; or respects persons (Jm 2)
        > > > > or
        > > > > > > builds with rubbish (1 Cor 3) or doesn't multiply Christ (Mt 24:45-51;
        > > > > > > 25:14-30) or doesn't gain more Christ (Mt 25:1-13) or doesn't bear
        > > > > fruit
        > > > > > > (Jn 15) or doesn't do the will of the Father (Mt 7:21); then such a one
        > > > > > > will be punished. As described in Mt 24--25 and 7 and Jn 15 and 1 Cor
        > > > > 3.
        > > > > > > Saved, ultimately, "through fire," 1 Cor 3:15, 17, after suffering
        > > > > loss.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Robin replies;
        > > > > > Do not do the Will of the Father and you will not enter the kingdom of
        > > > > > heaven(Mat 7:21). You referenced Mat 7:21 to say that if one doesn't do
        > > > > > the will of the father will be punished and yet that verse does NOT say
        > > > > > that. That verse specifically tells us that the one who doesn't do the
        > > > > > will of the Father WILL NOT enter HEAVEN. By your standards one can be
        > > > > > saved and yet still not get to heaven. Another verse for your
        > > > > > consideration is 1 Tim 5:8 where Paul informs Timothy that if one doesn't
        > > > > > provide for his family has DENIED the faith and is worse than an
        > > > > UNBELIEVER.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for
        > > > > their
        > > > > > own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." (1
        > > > > > Tim 5:8 NIV)
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Paul was speaking of believers who deny the faith. And when one does
        > > > > that,
        > > > > > they are worse than unbelievers. Are unbelievers saved? You would say no
        > > > > > since belief comes first.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > God Bless
        > > > > > Robin
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > To fail to distinguish between God's children and the world, to fail to
        > > > > > > distinguish between the church and the world, is to distort the
        > > > > Scripture.
        > > > > > > The apostles' and prophets' writings. And Jesus' words.
        > > > > > > Which is what Catholicism does in this instance.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, Robin <rdnuclearmed@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:44 PM, j.s299 <j.s299@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I apologize. 3. Not 2.
        > > > > > > > > "a man is justified by faith APART FROM the works of the law."
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Robin replies:
        > > > > > > > Had you read in context you would have noticed that the very next
        > > > > verse
        > > > > > > > beyond the one you quote reads: "For we are God's handiwork, created
        > > > > in
        > > > > > > > Christ Jesus to do good works, which *God prepared in advance for us
        > > > > to
        > > > > > > do*.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > "
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > In other words it is His Will that we do good works the He prepared
        > > > > for
        > > > > > > > us. What happens if we do not do His Will? ""Not everyone who says
        > > > > to me,
        > > > > > > > `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who
        > > > > does
        > > > > > > > the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mat 7:21)
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > If you do not DO the Will of the Father you also will not enter the
        > > > > > > kingdom
        > > > > > > > of heaven.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > "Justified FREELY by His grace through the redemption which is in
        > > > > > > Christ
        > > > > > > > > Jesus"
        > > > > > > > > 3:24.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > "To the one who works, his wages are not counted according to
        > > > > grace,
        > > > > > > but
        > > > > > > > > according to what's due. But to the one who believes on Him who
        > > > > > > justifies
        > > > > > > > > THE UNGODLY, his faith is counted as righteousness. Even as David
        > > > > also
        > > > > > > > > speaks blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart
        > > > > from
        > > > > > > > > works"
        > > > > > > > > 4:4-6
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > James' context for his word "justification" is the godly.
        > > > > Believers.
        > > > > > > The
        > > > > > > > > church. Those already justified by Paul's "justification."
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Robin replies:
        > > > > > > > They are believers and yet they still will not be saved if they do
        > > > > > > nothing
        > > > > > > > along with their faith because without faith your faith is dead
        > > > > (James
        > > > > > > > 2:20) and therefore does not save (v. 26).
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > God Bless
        > > > > > > > Robin
        >
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