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Re: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

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  • gich2
    Thanks Steve. I have some further questions. Why is this important? Is the conception of Mary mentioned anywhere in the Bible? Peace Gich ... From: Steve
    Message 1 of 59 , Sep 28, 2007
      Thanks Steve.
      I have some further questions.
      Why is this important?
      Is the 'conception of Mary' mentioned anywhere in the Bible?
      Peace
      Gich
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:33 AM
      Subject: RE: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

                      The Immaculate Conception is about Mary being free from original sin from the moment of HER conception. Most people confuse this to mean the moment that Jesus was conceived in her.

      In other words Mary was born, without original sin.

      God Bless,

      Steve Fredette

      http://www.catholic webauthors. com

      "Worry never robs tomorrow of its sorrow, it only saps today of its joy."

      -Leo Buscaglia

      From: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:catholicque stions@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of gich2
      Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 13:01 PM
      To: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

      Steve, Could you explain how Immaculate Conception is related to Original Sin.

      Peace

      Gich

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:39 PM

      Subject: RE: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

                      The last one is easy, just look at the Byzantine Rite, that is Eastern, and under the Pope. They have been able to keep all of their Traditions, and basically govern themselves. So your last one is a moot point, only raised by anti-unity radicals.

                      Of course Immaculate Conception is not part of your teachings, since you do not believe in Original Sin. ThatÂ’s a no brainer.

                      As for the Filioque, it can only be blamed on Biblical ignorance on the Eastern part for the lack of belief in this.

      John 20: 21-23

      (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them,   Receive the holy Spirit.  Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

                      Hence the Holy Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

      God Bless,

      Steve Fredette

      http://www.catholic webauthors. com

      "Worry never robs tomorrow of its sorrow, it only saps today of its joy."

      -Leo Buscaglia

      From: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:catholicque stions@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of John Lee
      Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 00:18 AM
      To: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

      I mean Catholic Orthodoxy but that is not in communion with Rome The remaining Patriarchs after the Schism in 1054 are Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, and lastly Moscow and all Russia.

         I also have a question for some people in this forum.  How is it disrespectful of the Pope to reject his rule since he is not Orthodox, and Orthodox Christians are not in communion with Rome.  I have no desire to prostletize Orthodoxy in this forum, but I do believe that I can and should question things that are not a part of Orthodoxy like the "Filioque" and The Immaculate Conception, and even non-Orthodox governance.

      John Lee.  

      -----Original Message-----
      From: gich2 <gich2@btinternet. com>
      To: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:39 am
      Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

      John, would you please clarify how you use the term 'orthodoxy.'

      I presume you mean Catholic orthodoxy rather than Protestant orthodoxy.

      peace

      Gich

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: John Lee

      Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:10 PM

      Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

         I find it interesting that the Church prior to 1054 was governed by Church Council and not by the dictatorship of the monarchy of Rome.  Simply put the first excommunication was from Rome over the alteration of the work of the first two Ecumenical Councils , Nicea and Constantinople. To change the work of an Ecumenical Council requires another Ecumenical Council.  This was not done. The Patriarch of Rome simply declared the change.  From the Orthodox view this change Heterodox and remains so even though the mutual excommunication has been lifted.   The Pope was simply first among equals until 1054 when he became dictator among his equals.
         From the Orthodox view to have Jesus Christ as fully human and fully God; His mother must be fully human.  We also find the concept of the "Stain of Original Sin"as a false doctrine first proposed by St. Augustine.  Man is tied to the result of the Sin of Adam, death.  The Stain of Original Sin is not like the Bubonic Plague and passed from generation to generation.  With these views Orthodoxy should not be forced to accept what we view has further heterodoxy.  There are other deep seated issues, but these are but two of the main issues.

      John Lee 

      -----Original Message-----
      From: bridget alabi <phina081@yahoo. co.uk>
      To: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 7:07 pm
      Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

      Interesting that you should think that it is the Roman Catholic Church that is being heterodox in her teachings when it was the Orthodoz Church that broke away. I dont claim to be familiar with the history of the Orthodox Church but i do know tht the Roman Church was the only one before the splits. I can honestly say tht if coming back together means tht we change the doctrine on the Immaculate Conception, then am not sure i want tht to happen. It is one of the important dogmas of the Church. I dont know the arguments of the Orthodox Church against it but i understand why its a dogma. It makes perfect sense to me that Jesus being God wanted to be conceived in the womb of someone who is not stained by original sin. It doesnt mean she was divine, it simply means she was absolved from sin from the minute she was conceived. God could do it and He did. I certainly hope we dont compromise our beliefs. I know Jesus prayed that we be one but i am sure tht its not at the expense of important doctrines. There wont be an end to Papal Authority because Jesus himself handed the keys to Peter, not even the gates of Hell will prevail against it.

      As for the authority of Pope Shenuda and others, do they really trace their authority to that which Jesus Christ gave to Peter? I really do not understand. Can u enlighten me on this?

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: John Lee <JArthurLee@aim. com>
      To: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Sunday, 9 September, 2007 3:49:34 AM
      Subject: Re: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

      I have no desire to find myself within Roman Catholicism precisely because I do not believe that the Pope has any more authority than Pope Shenuda Patriarch of Alexandria or Alexy Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia.  Secondarily the Pope teaches error as in the Case of the Immaculate Conception and the Filioque.   As an Orthodox Christian I would never accept the authority of a non-Orthodox Patriarch.
        Now from the Orthodox view there are real problems with Roman teachings such as "The Immaculate Conception" which we view as Heterodox, The Filioque which we also view as Heterodox.  We also look to the day when there will be an end to Papal Authority or the Monarchy, and the rule of the Ecumenical Councils.

      John Lee

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jon P <pax_65@yahoo. com>
      To: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:20 am
      Subject: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism


      John,

      I agree there should be more peace and less argument. Despite your
      post detailing doctrinal differences between Orthodox and Catholic, I
      still believe the differences in the two churches are more cultural
      and "political" - by which I mean that both sides are proud of their
      faith and have no great desire to merge together if that means their
      own identity would be lost.

      We could debate the Immaculate Conception and the Authority of the
      Pope but I still don't think these are at the crux of the issue.

      The one thing about Catholicism is that you can find your faith
      within it. Yes, you are not required to fast (except during Lent) and
      Reconciliation (confession) is only required once a year (unless
      mortal sin is present). Similarly, you are only required to attend
      mass weekly.

      However, all these things are encouraged if not required. There are
      Catholics who attend mass daily, go to Reconciliation weekly and fast
      on a regular basis. Like many Catholics, I find myself somewhere in
      the middle, although I move from one side to another as my faith
      journey moves me.

      I agree with you about following the Holy Spirit's guidance and for
      shooting for "the maximum" (I think, if I understand you correctly) -
      my goal is to do what I need to do to be like Christ. This is very
      difficult, and I fall short constantly, but still I aim for that
      lofty goal and find many gifts along the way.

      God bless!

      Jon

      --- In catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com, John Lee <JArthurLee@ ...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Jon:
      >
      > I still view the Roman Church as modernist and minimalist.? As the
      Church in Rome has departed from the Fasts and the weekly Confession;
      I have started to believe that the Holy Spirit led me to the right
      place; when I was led to Orthodoxy.? I do not view the divisions as
      to Vatican II as the real question.? I am faced with the maximum and
      then I find that when I cannot fulfill this maximum I then have a
      goal to shoot at next year or in the coming years.
      > ? As an Orthodox Christian we have our differences with the Coptic
      branch of Orthodoxy, but never do we suggest that they are not
      Orthodox.? I still view Pope Shenuda as a great Patriarch.? What I
      think and I believe is that there should be more peace and less
      argument.? More cooperation even with those we might disagree with.?
      We should love and forgive our neighbors as Christ loves and forgives
      us.
      >
      > John Lee?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Jon P <pax_65@...>
      > To: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 8:35 am
      > Subject: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism
      >
      >
      >
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      > James,
      >
      >
      >
      > Welcome to both Catholicism and the list! LOL.
      >
      >
      >
      > I converted in 2002. Since then I've been pretty active online,
      >
      > questioning everything, debating anyone, and sincerely seeking the
      >
      > Truth. I also serve on the RCIA Team at my parish, helping others
      >
      > take the same journey home that I've taken.
      >
      >
      >
      > Have you converted yet, or are you just starting the process?
      >
      >
      >
      > I wouldn't worry too much about sedevacantism. It is indeed
      primarily
      >
      > a backlash against Vatican II. The council brought the focus of the
      >
      > Church back to spreading God's Word, opening up the Church to all -
      >
      > including people like you and me. Now the Mass is held in the
      native
      >
      > language, Bible study is encouraged, and RCIA classes help bring
      new
      >
      > people into the Church in much the same way as in the early Church.
      >
      >
      >
      > Despite what sedevacantists might say (and they can't even agree on
      >
      > this amongst themselves), the doctrines of the Church did not
      change.
      >
      > They remain the same from the earliest days of Christianity. This
      >
      > consistency is one of the many things I love about the Catholic
      >
      > Church.
      >
      >
      >
      > God bless!
      >
      >
      >
      > Jon
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com, Chi Rho 888
      >
      > <chi.rho888@ > wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > And I was asking how "Sedevacantism" got started. Could it be a
      >
      > backlash against Vatican II, since it began under John XXIII,
      >
      > concluded under Paul VI, and no pope since has gone against it?
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Please keep in mind that I'm new to both Catholicism and this
      >
      > list.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Pax Dei,
      >
      > > "James"
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Brian Atwood <specimenb@> wrote:
      >
      > > On 8/29/07, chi.rho888 <chi.rho888@ > wrote:
      >
      > > > --- In catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com, "Brian Atwood"
      >
      > > > <specimenb@> wrote:
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > > > > He's referring to a small group of Catholics the don't
      >
      > recognize the
      >
      > > > > authority of any pope since Pope Pius XII. They claim that
      the
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      > popes
      >
      > > > > following him are heretics and they've formed their own
      >
      > conclave and
      >
      > > > > some have even placed their own "pope". They call themselves
      the
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      > > > > "true Catholic Church". In my opinion, it's a group of
      >
      > seditionists.
      >
      > > > > I say it's impossible for our church to fall into heresy
      >
      > because of
      >
      > > > > the promise God made us in Matthew 16:18.
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > > I agree with you. How did this idea get started?
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > > Deo gratias,
      >
      > > > "James"
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Someone asked what the deal was behind sedevacantists and how we
      >
      > felt about it.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > B
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      > > __._,_.__
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      > > .
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      >
      > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
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    • bridget alabi
      I think you misunderstood me. Its obvious to me from John s posts that he is not going to change his mind. The debate on the pope s infallibilty, immaculate
      Message 59 of 59 , Oct 5, 2007
        I think you misunderstood me. Its obvious to me from John's posts that he is not going to change his mind. The debate on the pope's infallibilty, immaculate conception and filioque has been going on for a long time. He repeats the same arguments regardless of whatever anyone says. He is even insulting sometimes. If his intention is to find out why the Catholic Church preaches what She does, his attitude would be different. If he is more polite when he refers to our Church then we will know he seeks to understand our position on these issues. To any observer who wishes to be objective that is not the attitude reflected in his posts.
         
        If he is not intending to change our minds then he is being outrightly antagonistic. Thats the reason for my statement. And i am saying again, if he continues to disrepect the Catholic Church and the Pope, no good catholic is going to respect his views, not to mention accept them. He need not bother.

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: ehlsmith <ehlsmith@...>
        To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 5:55:02 AM
        Subject: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism

        Bridget,

        You yourself asked John to enlighten you on the Orthodox viewpoint,
        and when he responded you say "What i dont understand is why he
        insists on arguments if his purpose is not trying to make see that the
        Catholic church is wrong."

        Why did you ask him in the first if you know you're probably not going
        to like the answer?

        I'm not asking this to try to be snippy, or a wise guy, and I hope you
        don't take it that way, but it does seem a little unfair, a kind of
        catch 22 (even though I agree with Brian that John's answer could have
        been phrased more tactfully).

        Sincerely,
        ehlsmith

        --- In catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com, bridget alabi <phina081@.. .>
        wrote:

        >
        > I get the impression that no amount of explanation will satisfy John
        Lee on the papal infallibility, the immaculate conception and the
        filioque. He has made up his mind on these issues. What i dont
        understand is why he insists on arguments if his purpose is not trying
        to make see that the Catholic church is wrong.
        >
        >
        > Bridget
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: salsaman60 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
        > To: catholicquestions@ yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 7:50:29 AM
        > Subject: Catholic Questions Re: Sedevacantism
        >
        > John Lee. You wrote the following:
        > I also have a question for some people in this forum. How is it
        > disrespectful of the Pope to reject his rule since he is not
        > Orthodox, and Orthodox Christians are not in communion with Rome. I
        > have no desire
        to prostletize Orthodoxy in this forum, but I do
        > believe that I can and should question things that are not a part of
        > Orthodoxy like the "Filioque" and The Immaculate Conception, and even
        > non-Orthodox governance.
        >
        > John Lee.
        >
        > Reply: The term Orthodox is a word use to describe a Self-
        > Righteousness community. Personally I feel it best describes a
        > heresiarch. Especially, since, their own self-destruction was cause
        > by their own pride.
        >
        > Moreover, the Eastern Church will never be united with Rome, until
        > they renounce their pride and return to the true Church established
        > by Jesus Christ.
        >
        > No. You may NOT proselytize your religion on this forum. You may ask
        > questions, about Roman Catholicism and we would gladly try to give a
        > correct answer. But, too questions pertaining to other denominations,
        > which
        differ, with Catholic teachings are of no interest to us.
        >
        > As to your question on the "Filioque," that is an undefined word.
        > Please explain.
        >
        > As to the question on The Immaculate Conception, that is a doctrine
        > proclaimed as infallible by Pope Pius IX 1854. and an important
        > article of faith for Roman Catholics.
        >
        > On the question of non-Orthodox governance: that does not pertain to
        > Roman Catholic interest.
        >
        > Fidel
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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