Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Catholic Questions Re: Doctrine

Expand Messages
  • millersseedling
    ... Works of ... So justification does not so much wear of as drop off. What is the purpose of baptism if its justification is so easily lost?
    Message 1 of 87 , Jun 29 8:23 AM
      --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Atwood"
      <specimenb@...> wrote:
      >
      > On 6/27/07, millersseedling <cornamuse@...> wrote:
      > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Atwood"
      > > <specimenb@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > On 6/26/07, millersseedling <cornamuse@> wrote:
      > > > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Atwood"
      > > > > <specimenb@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > On 6/25/07, millersseedling <cornamuse@> wrote:
      > > > > > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Atwood"
      > > > > > > <specimenb@> wrote:
      > > > > > > > Very well, then lets recap. You made the statement that
      > > > > Catholic works
      > > > > > > > weren't works of faith because Catholics view works to be
      > > > > required to
      > > > > > > > achieve justification. I showed you that was false.
      Works of
      > > > > faith are
      > > > > > > > required to maintain justification already received.<
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > So Catholics start by being fully justified? How is that
      > > achieved?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Catholics are justified through baptism.<
      > > > >
      > > > > Then why the need for works? Or faith?
      > > >
      > > > To maintain justification. <
      > >
      > > So justification wears off?
      >
      > No. the justifying effects of baptism are severed by sin. <

      So justification does not so much wear of as drop off. What is the
      purpose of baptism if its justification is so easily lost?
    • millersseedling
      ... about being ... Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. Mark 12:30 NIV ...
      Message 87 of 87 , Jul 7, 2007
        --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Atwood"
        <specimenb@...> wrote: > On 7/2/07, millersseedling <cornamuse@...> wrote:
        > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Atwood"
        > > <specimenb@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > On 6/29/07, millersseedling <cornamuse@> wrote:
        > > > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Atwood"
        > > > > <specimenb@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On 6/29/07, millersseedling <cornamuse@> wrote:
        > > > > > > --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, covie1646
        > > <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > I was reading Calvin's Commentary in John's verse
        about being
        > > > > born of
        > > > > > > > water and the Spirit. <
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > The word 'water' is here used as a metaphor for Spirit,
        > > denoting the
        > > > > > > cleansing action of the Spirit at conversion.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > If that were true, wouldn't the verse be kind of redundant? No
        > > man can
        > > > > > enter Heaven unless he's born of Spirit and Spirit? <
        > > > >
        > > > > That isn't what it says, though.
        > > >
        > > > It's exactly what it says. <
        > >
        > > It says 'water and Spirit.' A synecdoche.
        >
        > There's no logic to the grammar implied by your argument. Metaphors
        > (or synecdoches, or synonmyms) aren't followed by the word they're
        > meant to represent. <

        '"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul
        and with all your mind and with all your strength."' Mark 12:30 NIV


        > > > > > That isn't the
        > > > > > only spot in the Bible where it's said baptism is necessary. <
        > > > >
        > > > > It's the only 'spot' from which water baptism might be
        supposed to be
        > > > > necessary in order to be born again.
        > > >
        > > > (Matthew 28:18-20) "Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All
        authority
        > > > in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make
        > > > disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
        Father and
        > > > of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey
        > > > everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you
        always,
        > > > to the very end of the age'" <
        > >
        > > That does not mention water.
        >
        > It commands baptism. The Greek word used is baptizo which is a verb
        using water. <

        The same verb was used by John the Baptist, Jesus and Paul with
        reference to the Holy Spirit, not water.


        > > > > > There are
        > > > > > several verses showing water baptism by the Apostles. <
        > > > >
        > > > > Of course there are, but there are none that show that water
        baptism
        > > > > justifies.
        > > >
        > > > Incorrect again.
        > > >
        > > > (Titus 3:4-7) But when the kindness and generous love of God our
        > > > savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but
        > > > because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and
        > > > renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through
        > > > Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace
        > > > and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
        > > >
        > > > Here, the bath of rebirth (i.e. baptism) justifies. <
        > >
        > > Washing by the Holy Spirit, spiritual baptism- 'by the holy Spirit,
        > > whom he richly poured out on us.'
        >
        > You've fallen into the same logic fallacy as in John. Why would the
        > author say the bath of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit if
        > both were the same thing? <

        Because they are the same thing!
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.