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Re: Greetings from Quick,

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  • annie kendrick
    -Im so sorry you feel like that.. Im a convert of 8 years.. I feel being a Catholic is wonderfull... Fullfilling in every way... I wish you the best.. GOD BE
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 30, 2006
      -Im so sorry you feel like that.. Im a convert of 8 years.. I feel
      being a Catholic is wonderfull... Fullfilling in every way... I wish
      you the best..
      GOD BE WITH YOU


      -- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Ash"
      <quicksilverspiel@...> wrote:
      >
      > Greetings..
      >
      > I'm not sure it I have a voice here but I thought I`d give it a
      go,
      > you know, generosity being a fundamental to the Christian
      > disposition. And on that note I request of all who grace such a
      > forum and might read my posts their pertinence and to forgive any
      > trespasses.
      >
      > Like the original intent, I come in peace.
      >
      > So what of this issue of Christ and the Catholic Church?
      >
      > I was raised Catholic, been trying to recover ever since--once a
      > Catholic always a Catholic <wry grin>. However I'm no longer one,
      in
      > fact I'm no longer a practising anything other than a human being
      so
      > if I belong to a Church at all I belong to the Church of humanity,
      > which I would define as the Church of God because I believe it
      comes
      > down to the same thing. I think we are all connected and
      fundamental
      > to each, other simply different aspects of the same almighty
      thing.
      > I guess it is so common and idea that it has become a cliché but
      > that is how I feel and I don't see what dogma or religious
      > instruction has to do with it. As far as I can tell those things
      are
      > manufactured concepts so of mankind rather than God and his way of
      > knowing him.
      >
      > My experience with the Catholic Church was always very negative, a
      > great evil done to me as a child to satisfy its insatiable need
      for
      > imposition, which is why I have spent my life resenting its
      > ideology. I stand against the things it tries to sell as essential
      > to spiritual grace such as damnation, fear, guilt and shame. To me
      > those are spiritually bankrupt tyrannies and contradictory to
      > spiritual strength and more in keeping with our concept of the
      Devil
      > and the negative things that feed it. The very thing the Church is
      > suppose to fight against so I wonder why the Catholic Church would
      > come to represent such a distorted disposition of Christ's
      original
      > message of unconditional acceptance, love and forgiveness. I also
      > wonder what it is that keep people bound to such an uncharitable
      > religion and whether I've missed something spiritually profound
      > about Catholicism.
      >
      > I come here to discuss such contradictions and consider the pros
      and
      > cons and even the detail of what defines this religion and how it
      > sits in relation to spiritual strength and finding God (as if he
      was
      > something to be lost like a sorry old purse).
      >
      > I'm not interested in offending anybody so if my type of
      questioning
      > and debate is unwelcome let me know and I will resign from the
      group.
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > -Quick
      >
    • Ash
      Hi, Brian.. you wrote: Thank you.. and I really hope so.
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 30, 2006
        Hi, Brian..

        you wrote:

        << Welcome. I think you will find most of the debaters here to be
        rather fair and hard to offend. >>

        Thank you.. and I really hope so.

        << Typically we only get offended when the debate turns to blatant
        stabs to the faith or the person. >>

        I come from the same point of view. I can just about respect and
        allow for any disposition so long as it doesn't impose on me, which
        rarely happens because I'm universal. In fact even though I find
        petty attacks and personal remarks unpleasant they don't truly
        offend me. I figure everyone has a right to be and express
        themselves as their see fit so my job as me is to make accommodation
        for it.

        << You had a negative experience with Catholicism and I think you
        will find most (if not all) here to be understanding of that. >>

        I despise every shade of oppression especially when
        institutionalised and the product of indoctrination. I'm a Scot, by
        both genetic disposition and historical heritage we love freedom and
        the right of the individual to be. I'd rather give up my life than
        live as a slave or bound. And this is why I object to any philosophy
        that is based upon moderation or condemnation. A man is only as
        bound as he allows himself to be including the truth of his
        spirituality. I believe in the vastness of things, in the promise of
        potential and in such expansion we know God best. I believe we are
        only as limited as we allow. Nothing spiritually good ever came from
        feeling regret or guilt, guilt is the lack of God's grace and what
        we feel when we fear we might have lost this. It is the emotion of
        human tragedy and weakness. And that is all it symbolises.

        << I'd like to ask a few more questions to get a better idea of
        your stance on Catholicism and religion in general. >.

        LOL I'm a font, probably of many contradiction. Please feel free to
        ask away.

        << There was a period that I call "Neo-Catholicism" that
        unfortunately some today still subscribe to.>>

        I was educated Catholic, what this meant was that there was only one
        Church, the Catholic Church and all else pretenders or fakes. It was
        a very traditional religion based upon instilling self-loathing,
        guilt and fear starting with original sin and ending with Christ
        dying on the Cross to allow us escape from it. In the Catholicism I
        was taught everyone was a sinner and thus unworthy of God's love
        unless he atoned for his sins and made the effort to redeem himself
        by obeying God's (the Church's) laws in order to seek salvation.
        Sins could be forgiven when confessed and sincerely regretted. Not
        every sin though, menial sins were normal expected and ultimately
        forgivable with the right amount of penance but mortal sins
        condemned you to spiritual damnation and exclusion from God's love.
        It meat that whatever the Church said was mortal, usually murder,
        abortion and possibly divorce, would cut you from spiritual
        salvation and condemn you to Hell.

        << Basically, to the neo-Catholic, we walk a razor's edge and on
        both sides is hellfire and forgiveness comes with sacrifice (usually
        physical). This type of attitude drove many away from the Church.
        Which brings me to my questions. Was it the doctrine of the Church
        in general that you found fault in or was it someone in particular
        (parents, teachers, priests) that made Catholicism a negative
        experience for you? >>

        The doctrine in general..

        I believe its okay to make mistakes that the true sin is to live in
        fear. Anything that strives to undermine a man and what faith he
        holds in himself only gets in the way of his spiritual strength. I
        think the best way to know God is through love, hope and
        forgiveness, forgiveness of our own weakness as much as the weakness
        of others. The Church I was educated in never talked about this
        truth. There has to be something profoundly wrong with any religion
        take takes little children and condemns them unilaterally as sinners.

        << Do you still believe in the authority of Christ and scripture? >>

        I believe in the absolute authority of *me* as the child of God. I
        believe we are all like Christ, God made man and that what lives
        within comes from God, is of God and this is our ultimate fact--
        nothing can diminish this.

        As for scriptures, they are documents that are written by men and as
        such subject to human limits, intentions and interpretations, no?
        Even if from God the mind that interprets such divinity is still
        human and thus flawed. This lends the truth within such scriptures
        and Holy books open to debate. The profoundness of such truths seem
        to have altered from culture to culture as society progressed—like
        you said the Catholic Church has reformed so surely any spiritual
        merit within is just as conditional of human disposition as the word
        of God. However Christ is someone I can find no fault with. His idea
        is my idea his love my love, his infinite patience and acceptance my
        own. I feel no anger, hatred, fear or guilt because I love myself,
        my life, you and everyone else including the world. I am filled with
        God I am spiritually content, arrived and safe.

        I can't say Christ taught me this because I was born always knowing
        such certainty only in Christ I recognised a kinship. I understand
        him perfectly and there is nothing but peace within his creed. The
        only place where we differed is down to heritage. He was born a Jew
        of a primitive time and product of the angry dictatorial God of the
        Hebrew and Old Testament. I never knew such a God, God to me was
        always the ultimate solution of all physical pain and loss, he was
        my inner strength and from where my compassion flowed. I have never
        feared God. I know I am his. And perhaps because of this I don't
        fear anything.

        Does this answer your question??

        << The Church embodies unconditional love, acceptance and
        forgiveness. >>

        Then I see no fault in it.

        << There is a degree of guilt that comes with sin which is a natural
        response if you love God and are sorry for offending him. >>

        I disagree. God is unconditional and to place a condition to him is
        to apply human considerations to something beyond it so I would
        argue God above our ability to offend him. I'm convinced that there
        is no right or wrong way for me to be me or you to be you as long as
        we are sincere. The regret you speak about is of our human
        condition and perhaps the weakness that keeps us from fully knowing
        God. When we are weak or do not live up to our spiritual potential
        we offend ourselves. In fact I don't really believe in sin as such.
        I think sin is the absence of God's grace when we perhaps forget our
        connection to its magnificence.

        << However, if someone in your life introduced fear and shame as
        methods of control, that was wrong. >>

        Yes.

        Regards

        Ash (Quick)


        ++++++++++++++++++++
        --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Atwood"
        <specimenb@...> wrote:
        >
        > Welcome. I think you will find most of the debaters here to be
        rather fair
        > and hard to offend. Typically we only get offended when the debate
        turns to
        > blatant stabs to the faith or the person. You had a negative
        experience with
        > Catholicism and I think you will find most (if not all) here to be
        > understanding of that. I'd like to ask a few more questions to get
        a better
        > idea of your stance on Catholicism and religion in general. There
        was a
        > period that I call "Neo-Catholicism" that unfortunately some today
        still
        > subscribe to. Basically, to the neo-Catholic, we walk a razor's
        edge and on
        > both sides is hellfire and forgiveness comes with sacrifice
        (usually
        > physical). This type of attitude drove many away from the Church.
        Which
        > brings me to my questions. Was it the doctrine of the Church in
        general that
        > you found fault in or was it someone in particular (parents,
        teachers,
        > priests) that made Catholicism a negative experience for you? Do
        you still
        > believe in the authority of Christ and scripture? The Church
        embodies
        > unconditional love, acceptance and forgiveness. There is a degree
        of guilt
        > that comes with sin which is a natural response if you love God
        and are
        > sorry for offending him. However, if someone in your life
        introduced fear
        > and shame as methods of control, that was wrong.
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ash
        > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 3:21 AM
        > To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Catholic Questions Greetings from Quick,
        >
        >
        >
        > Greetings..
        >
        > I'm not sure it I have a voice here but I thought I`d give it a
        go,
        > you know, generosity being a fundamental to the Christian
        > disposition. And on that note I request of all who grace such a
        > forum and might read my posts their pertinence and to forgive any
        > trespasses.
        >
        > Like the original intent, I come in peace.
        >
        > So what of this issue of Christ and the Catholic Church?
        >
        > I was raised Catholic, been trying to recover ever since--once a
        > Catholic always a Catholic <wry grin>. However I'm no longer one,
        in
        > fact I'm no longer a practising anything other than a human being
        so
        > if I belong to a Church at all I belong to the Church of humanity,
        > which I would define as the Church of God because I believe it
        comes
        > down to the same thing. I think we are all connected and
        fundamental
        > to each, other simply different aspects of the same almighty
        thing.
        > I guess it is so common and idea that it has become a cliché but
        > that is how I feel and I don't see what dogma or religious
        > instruction has to do with it. As far as I can tell those things
        are
        > manufactured concepts so of mankind rather than God and his way of
        > knowing him.
        >
        > My experience with the Catholic Church was always very negative, a
        > great evil done to me as a child to satisfy its insatiable need
        for
        > imposition, which is why I have spent my life resenting its
        > ideology. I stand against the things it tries to sell as essential
        > to spiritual grace such as damnation, fear, guilt and shame. To me
        > those are spiritually bankrupt tyrannies and contradictory to
        > spiritual strength and more in keeping with our concept of the
        Devil
        > and the negative things that feed it. The very thing the Church is
        > suppose to fight against so I wonder why the Catholic Church would
        > come to represent such a distorted disposition of Christ's
        original
        > message of unconditional acceptance, love and forgiveness. I also
        > wonder what it is that keep people bound to such an uncharitable
        > religion and whether I've missed something spiritually profound
        > about Catholicism.
        >
        > I come here to discuss such contradictions and consider the pros
        and
        > cons and even the detail of what defines this religion and how it
        > sits in relation to spiritual strength and finding God (as if he
        was
        > something to be lost like a sorry old purse).
        >
        > I'm not interested in offending anybody so if my type of
        questioning
        > and debate is unwelcome let me know and I will resign from the
        group.
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > -Quick
        >
      • Ash
        Hullo Annie, and thank you for your kind reply. You wrote: Nah, don t be. I had a hard childhood as well but I seem to
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 2, 2006
          Hullo Annie,

          and thank you for your kind reply.

          You wrote:

          << -Im so sorry you feel like that.. >>

          Nah, don't be. I had a hard childhood as well but I seem to have
          survived it just as well and become stronger for it. If anything the
          Catholicism I was taught help me crystallise my spiritual identity
          and understand better my relationship with God so in a sense it
          succeeded.

          << Im a convert of 8 years.. I feel being a Catholic is wonderfull
          ... Fullfilling in every way >>

          I am happy for you and please know that I do not condemn you or your
          faith or in deed your religion. I guess knowing God is a very
          personal thing and what might have offended me could have easily
          provided sanctuary for another. I'm just an evolved human who
          believes all the answers come within so that is where I look. I
          don't require religion because I don't need to be taught how to know
          God, I do, I always did. My relationship with him ( for want of a
          better expression) is part of who I am, and just as importantly I
          have never needed God to be some sort of reprieve from myself, my
          life or my sins because I accept full and frank it all including
          those sad points in my life of spiritual weakness. I am with God as
          much as he is with me so we are the one inseparable truth and
          nothing can get in the way of this no matter how black black gets.

          Anyway..

          It became very obvious to me at an early age that I was always going
          to have a problem accepting dogma or indoctrination generally. I
          speak of social and intellectual constraints and prejudices as much
          as those of the Church.

          I don't hate the Church but I do see it is my enemy because to me
          God is all about universal acceptance, forgiveness and love and
          there is little of this in ideas of sin, confession, guilt,
          redemption or conditional salvation. In fact those things speak of
          man's servitude rather than his liberation to me. <shrug>

          May I ask, what attracted you to it?

          << ... I wish you the best.. >>

          As I do for you and I thank you once more for your wonderful
          kindness.

          << GOD BE WITH YOU >>

          He is. And may he continue to bless *you*. :)

          In our love we are made more magnificent and know God best.

          Ash


          ++++++++++++++++++++++++
          --- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "annie kendrick"
          <lil_softy_ann@...> wrote:
          >
          > -Im so sorry you feel like that.. Im a convert of 8 years.. I feel
          > being a Catholic is wonderfull... Fullfilling in every way... I
          wish
          > you the best..
          > GOD BE WITH YOU
          >
          >
          > -- In catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com, "Ash"
          > <quicksilverspiel@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Greetings..
          > >
          > > I'm not sure it I have a voice here but I thought I`d give it a
          > go,
          > > you know, generosity being a fundamental to the Christian
          > > disposition. And on that note I request of all who grace such a
          > > forum and might read my posts their pertinence and to forgive
          any
          > > trespasses.
          > >
          > > Like the original intent, I come in peace.
          > >
          > > So what of this issue of Christ and the Catholic Church?
          > >
          > > I was raised Catholic, been trying to recover ever since--once a
          > > Catholic always a Catholic <wry grin>. However I'm no longer
          one,
          > in
          > > fact I'm no longer a practising anything other than a human
          being
          > so
          > > if I belong to a Church at all I belong to the Church of
          humanity,
          > > which I would define as the Church of God because I believe it
          > comes
          > > down to the same thing. I think we are all connected and
          > fundamental
          > > to each, other simply different aspects of the same almighty
          > thing.
          > > I guess it is so common and idea that it has become a cliché but
          > > that is how I feel and I don't see what dogma or religious
          > > instruction has to do with it. As far as I can tell those things
          > are
          > > manufactured concepts so of mankind rather than God and his way
          of
          > > knowing him.
          > >
          > > My experience with the Catholic Church was always very negative,
          a
          > > great evil done to me as a child to satisfy its insatiable need
          > for
          > > imposition, which is why I have spent my life resenting its
          > > ideology. I stand against the things it tries to sell as
          essential
          > > to spiritual grace such as damnation, fear, guilt and shame. To
          me
          > > those are spiritually bankrupt tyrannies and contradictory to
          > > spiritual strength and more in keeping with our concept of the
          > Devil
          > > and the negative things that feed it. The very thing the Church
          is
          > > suppose to fight against so I wonder why the Catholic Church
          would
          > > come to represent such a distorted disposition of Christ's
          > original
          > > message of unconditional acceptance, love and forgiveness. I
          also
          > > wonder what it is that keep people bound to such an uncharitable
          > > religion and whether I've missed something spiritually profound
          > > about Catholicism.
          > >
          > > I come here to discuss such contradictions and consider the pros
          > and
          > > cons and even the detail of what defines this religion and how
          it
          > > sits in relation to spiritual strength and finding God (as if he
          > was
          > > something to be lost like a sorry old purse).
          > >
          > > I'm not interested in offending anybody so if my type of
          > questioning
          > > and debate is unwelcome let me know and I will resign from the
          > group.
          > >
          > > Regards
          > >
          > > -Quick
          > >
          >
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