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RE: Catholic Questions Re: Ordination of Women - the debate about the ordination of women - why some christians are in favour of it

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  • Marshall, Keith
    Hi Spacemouse, FYI the C.S.Lewis article is online at http://huey.cc/dunstan/PriestessesintheChurch.HTM & I ve just looked through it. I think hes wrong about
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 1, 2005
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      Hi Spacemouse,

      FYI the C.S.Lewis article is online at
      http://huey.cc/dunstan/PriestessesintheChurch.HTM & I've just looked through
      it. I think hes wrong about Mary not being present at Pentecost (Acts
      1:12-14; & Acts 2:1-4,) about equality of men & women not being a basic
      christian principle (Galatians 3:28 & Acts 2 ... on all flesh), but right
      about refraining from any use of language about God that God has not been
      seen to endorse or which differs from that used by God in relation to God.

      I will also forever be in his debt for that beautiful book "Mere
      Christianity", for the narnia chronicles <<which used to be like drinking
      fresh spring water after being forced to live in a hot stagnant swamp during
      my days doing theology!>> & for his critique of some of the absurdities of
      the modernistic literary analysis of the bible,. I also inadvertently cried
      my eyes out when watching the film "Shadowlands" many years ago, the one
      starring Anthony Hopkins and Debra Winger. If anyone here has not seen it
      ... do so ... but make sure you have a box of tissues to hand!

      I would theorize that one of the joys of parenthood must be being able to
      read the narnia chronicles to your child.
      also re Narnia ... http://cslewis.drzeus.net/ +
      http://adisney.go.com/disneypictures/narnia/index.html : )

      When you write "For us, being ordained a priest primarily means being
      ordained to administer the sacraments, to say Mass. We don't see evidence
      that women had this role in the early church."

      That is an important point. Those non-catholics who believe not just the
      mystical priesthood of all believers <<based on such scriptures as 1 Pet
      2:5, 1Pet 2:9 and Rev 1:6 ect>> but that this undermines a NT equivalent of
      the OT role models (but whom the majority of may still not agree with women
      being ordained) will freely accept & acknowledge that the primary role
      models are all men in the NT ... the apostles ect... but simply make the
      point that if IN CHRIST a woman DOES STILL have the restrictions that a
      woman has as compared to a man ... or that IN CHRIST a slave DOES STILL have
      the restrictions of a slave as opposed to one who is free ... <<no
      inflammatory parallel is intended here by the way ... just dramatic license
      to illustrate ... as also used by Paul, : ) >> then what Paul meant in
      Galatians 3 seems to get turned on its head & appear to have lost any
      positive impact.

      Again they might say that being circumcised was an OT rite that was
      exclusive to men ... but that under the new covenant we all have the
      circumcision of the Holy Spirit in our heart. That the structures &
      restrictions of the Old Covenant ... have been transformed, expired & have
      been surpassed by the freedom & flexibility, of all having the capacity to
      be used by God under the New Covenant when appointed or available to, God, &
      empowered by the Holy Spirit.

      They will also question how clear cut is the case that can be made for
      saying that the office of elder\bishop\priest was not held by women ... or
      that there is insufficient data there to make a reasonable case for women
      acting in that capacity. Again I'm not seeking to undermine any church
      teaching here ... just explain why some christians believe this. Some of the
      scriptures already quoted will contain some of the references they would
      refer to.

      Also ... its probably a dumb question to ask ... but where would one look to
      understand the catholic view of the mass <<apart from the NT ... : ) >> ...
      In other words what early church fathers ideally of the 1st or 2nd century
      would describe it ... say before ad 225, ... that you would look to?? How
      flexible is the mass? Does anything matter in the mass order or format apart
      from the actual consecration of the bread & wine? Could you have the church
      in 2100ad saying that an hour of music by the band, 30 minutes of prayer &
      intercession by the congregation & the priest, would be followed by the
      taking of the bread & wine at the end??

      Also ... if God can be seen to bring one into the church without the
      sacrament of baptism ... or save outside of the sacrament of the catholic
      church ... then why could God not be seen to raise up those who are
      /qualified/ to minister or celebrate the sacrament of the mass .... apart
      from the churchs explicite blessing ... having hands laid on him by those
      who are already in this ministry? Practically speaking this would mean that
      in time of persecution & the removal\jailing or killing of all priests, that
      christians would still be able to celebrate the lords supper. Apologies if
      my language is at times incorrect or inaccurate.

      Best wishes,
      Keith
      -----Original Message-----
      From: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of the_spacemouse

      Keith,

      One thing I would point out is that Catholics don't view ordination
      in the same way as non-Catholics. What I mean is that for us, the
      reason women aren't ordained has more to do with sacerdotal
      functions than with whether women can be teachers or prophets. We
      would point to the fact that it seems that the apostles, bishops,
      and elders were all men. Further, it seems that these were the
      people who typically ministered the sacraments of baptism and
      anointing of the sick (we believe they were the ones who
      administered the Eucharist, too). For us, being ordained a priest
      primarily means being ordained to administer the sacraments, to say
      Mass. We don't see evidence that women had this role in the early
      church.

      This is why it is significant for Catholics that although Israel did
      have female prophets and judges, it never had female PRIESTS. Since
      we see our ministry performing a priestly function rather than
      merely or primarily a teaching function, it is not enough to prove
      that women can be prophets.

      Anyway, I'm not trying to way in on the issue of whether non-
      Catholic Christians are right to allow women to minister in their
      churches as pastors. That's their buisness, not mine. I am just
      pointing out that the issue is a bit different in the Catholic
      Church because we have a different view of what it means to be
      ordained.

      You might find C.S. Lewis's short essay on "Priestesses in the
      Church," found in _God in the Dock_, to be interesting reading on
      this subject.
    • Rebecca Mandala
      Also ... its probably a dumb question to ask ... but where would one look to ... The essence of the Mass is reading the Scriptures, gathering in prayer,
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 1, 2005
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            Also ... its probably a dumb question to ask ... but where would one look to
        understand the catholic view of the mass <<apart from the NT ... : ) >> ...
        In other words what early church fathers ideally of the 1st or 2nd century
        would describe it ... say before ad 225, ... that you would look to?? How
        flexible is the mass? Does anything matter in the mass order or format apart
        from the actual consecration of the bread & wine? Could you have the church
        in 2100ad saying that an hour of music by the band, 30 minutes of prayer &
        intercession by the congregation & the priest, would be followed by the
        taking of the bread & wine at the end??

        The essence of the Mass is reading the Scriptures, gathering in prayer, celebrating the Eucharist.

        I posted this in my other post, but I'll repost it here. From AD 155:

        On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.

        The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

        When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

        Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

        When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

        Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

        He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

        When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'

        When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.

        I'm sure that there are more witnesses as well, this is just the one quoted in the CCC.

        Becky


      • Michael
        Catholic Home Study Service has a FREE course on the Mass that covers most all of this . It s called We Worship... and can be found on their website. It s
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 1, 2005
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          Catholic Home Study Service has a FREE course on the Mass that covers most all of this . It's
          called "We Worship..." and can be found on their website. It's very good! http://www.catholic.com/
          Pax tecum,

          --- Rebecca Mandala <la.mama.loca@...> wrote:

          > Also ... its probably a dumb question to ask ... but where would one look to
          >
          > > understand the catholic view of the mass <<apart from the NT ... : ) >>
          > > ...
          > > In other words what early church fathers ideally of the 1st or 2nd century
          > > would describe it ... say before ad 225, ... that you would look to?? How
          > > flexible is the mass? Does anything matter in the mass order or format
          > > apart
          > > from the actual consecration of the bread & wine? Could you have the
          > > church
          > > in 2100ad saying that an hour of music by the band, 30 minutes of prayer &
          > > intercession by the congregation & the priest, would be followed by the
          > > taking of the bread & wine at the end??
          >
          >
          > The essence of the Mass is reading the Scriptures, gathering in prayer,
          > celebrating the Eucharist.
          >
          > I posted this in my other post, but I'll repost it here. From AD 155:
          >
          > On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country
          > gather in the same place.
          >
          > The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as
          > much as time permits.
          >
          > When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes
          > and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
          >
          > Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all
          > others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life
          > and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal
          > salvation.
          >
          > When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
          >
          > Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him
          > who presides over the brethren.
          >
          > He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe,
          > through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable
          > time he gives thanks (in Greek: *eucharistian*) that we have been judged
          > worthy of these gifts.
          >
          > When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice
          > to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'
          >
          > When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those
          > whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and
          > water and take them to those who are absent.
          > I'm sure that there are more witnesses as well, this is just the one quoted
          > in the CCC.
          >
          > Becky
          >


          "Dominus meus et Deus meus"
          Michael

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