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Re: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.

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  • Rondinelly Ribeiro
    Matt, how are you? I m from Brazil and i m a great reader of your debates with protestants. You are doing a great apostolate with this, and i m glad to thank
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
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      Matt, how are you? I'm from Brazil and i'm a great reader of your debates
      with protestants. You are doing a great apostolate with this, and i'm glad
      to thank you for help me in lots of issues. So, i'd like to ask you
      something about other thing, and this is about purgatory. (hey, just
      remembering - i'm catholic!). I'm know the hole teology about purgatory and
      the misconceptions that protestants ever do with this, but there's som that
      is interesting: The question is: Does Tertullian accept or not the
      conception of a purgatory? Protestants say NO! He doen't, becouse he
      rejected this in some of his letters, but all catholic apologist quote him
      whem are in defense of purgatory. Could you help in this?

      Thanks
      Rondinelly - Brazil
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <matt161819@...>
      To: <catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 3:08 PM
      Subject: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.


      > In answering the question of the Real Presence we must take under
      consideration other related questions, all the while understanding that the
      answers we give must be consistent; not because we are pedants or slaves to
      a narrow reason, but because of the unity of God and the unity of truth
      which flows from His Being and His creation.
      > Related questions have to do ultimately with the role of matter, both in
      creation and the recreation Christ brings to us in the New Covenant. Other
      questions have to do with God's own relationship to His creation and this
      ultimately brings up the matters of Sainthood and sanctification. Finally,
      there are scriptures which must be interpreted.
      > For example, St. Paul states, "I am dead, yet I live. But it no longer I
      who live, but Christ who lives in me."
      > Are we to regard this statement as merely figurative? Or do we find in St.
      Paul the Real Presence; is he speaking of his own "transubstantiation"...or
      just giving into hyperbole?
      > When the Pilgrims and others of the radical dualist mind-set eschew matter
      as intrincally evil and opt for a doctrine of radical transcendence, how did
      they then understand St. Paul's exhortation in Romans 12:1?
      > If Paul thought like a modern day evangelical, strict Calvanist or
      fundamentalist would he have said such a thing as he does in Collosians
      1:24? or Romans 12:1? Or would he have said something like this:
      > "Your bodies are useless. First, because they are matter and matter is
      worthless and good for nothing; we are in the Spirit. Second, you are to
      despise the body in a most thoroughgoing way, since it remains corrupt and
      unredeemed, as our great founders Luther and Calvin have taught us. So to
      offer it in sacrifice is nothing but an insult to God and the Christ. First
      because it is intrinsically corrupt. And second because Christ has made the
      only sacrifice and is the only mediator, not only unique, but utterly
      disconnected to anything and anyone else."
      > Either matter is intrinsically evil or it's not. Either our bodies are
      acceptable in Christ as sacrificial offerings united to His sacrifice or
      they are not. Either we are covered only and remain corrupt or we are
      renewed inwardly and transformed into Christ by Christ, and are therefore
      saved sinners only insofar as we are transformed into Christ and made
      saints.
      > The reformer's insistence on changing the ancient and persistent teaching
      of the Church on the Eucharist was made necessary because of a change of
      identity in the believer and of the understanding of the relationship of the
      believer to God and the work of Christ. If Christ only covers us with HIs
      righteousness and we remain corrupt and unchanged within, then neither
      Transubstantiation nor the possibility of becoming saints as Scripture
      defines saints can be realities in any way but metaphorical. God is utterly
      transcendent, having nothing to do with matter.
      > As time progressed in Protestant thought the emphasis on transcendence
      caused even the incarnation to be regarded as myth.
      > We must see doctrine one of two ways: As somethign simply man-made based
      upon symbol and myths. Or as God revealed, as integral, flowing from the
      Unity of God's own being, and formulated in the Church by the inspiration of
      the Paraclete, the advocate, the Spirit of Truth (not the spirit of
      opinion)who would speak through men in Christ's name.
      > IF God is really present in the Holy Spirit to teach us through the
      apostles and their heirs, the Bishops, God is also really present to nourish
      and empower us, and just as in Biblical time, matter was the stuff He chose.
      > If all this is true then the Protestant view on the Eucharist is therefore
      unscriptural, contrary to Tradition, contrary to ancient and sound doctrine,
      unhistorical and contracitory to and inconsistent with other realities which
      are at the Heart of the Christian faith, most notably the Incarnation.
      > As Newman said, "to go deep into history is to cease to become
      Protestant."
      > Tom
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > catholicquestions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Rondinelly Ribeiro
      MessageHey, it depends if you a historical protestant, like lutheran or anglican, or not. Understand? Newman was anglican, and yet before he converts to
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
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        Hey, it depends if you a historical protestant, like lutheran or anglican, or not. Understand?
         
        Newman was anglican, and yet before he converts to catholic he "understand Jn 6" and yet believe in transubstantiation. Even lutheran believe in it, but whith other name - cosubstantiation - but in fact it's the same.
         
        Thus you are a protestant, you can't affirm that just being a protestant is umbelieve in transubstantiation.
         
        Abraços
        Rondinelly
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 1:10 AM
        Subject: RE: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.

        Newman may have said, "to go deep into history is to cease to become Protestant."  I would add, "to read and understand John 6 is to cease to believe in Transubstantiation"
         
        -Calvin
         

         


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      • Calvin Fabre
        Boa noite Rondinelly, Thanks for the reply. I was not saying that all protestants believe in real presence. What I was trying to get across was that the idea
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
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          Boa noite Rondinelly,
           
          Thanks for the reply.  I was not saying that all protestants believe in real presence.  What I was trying to get across was that the idea of real presence, as understood by the Roman Catholic Church, not being found in the pages of Scripture--especially John 6.  My brother calls himself Roman Catholic but does not believe in purgatory (neither do I) nor does he even know what Real Presence is, does that make him a protestant?  Can one not beleive in purgatory and/or Real Presence and still be a Catholic?
           
          Obrigado,
           
          Calvin 
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Rondinelly Ribeiro [mailto:apologista@...]
          Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 7:23 AM
          To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.

          Hey, it depends if you a historical protestant, like lutheran or anglican, or not. Understand?
           
          Newman was anglican, and yet before he converts to catholic he "understand Jn 6" and yet believe in transubstantiation. Even lutheran believe in it, but whith other name - cosubstantiation - but in fact it's the same.
           
          Thus you are a protestant, you can't affirm that just being a protestant is umbelieve in transubstantiation.
           
          Abraços
          Rondinelly
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 1:10 AM
          Subject: RE: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.

          Newman may have said, "to go deep into history is to cease to become Protestant."  I would add, "to read and understand John 6 is to cease to believe in Transubstantiation"
           
          -Calvin
           

           


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        • Rondinelly Ribeiro
          Message Boa noite Rondinelly, Muito boa noite, você fala português? (Do you speak portuguese?) Thanks for the reply. How... I was not saying that all
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 1, 2002
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            Message
            Boa noite Rondinelly,

            Muito boa noite, você fala português? (Do you speak portuguese?)

            Thanks for the reply. 

            How...

            I was not saying that all protestants believe in real presence. 

            It's not a surprise for me, for sure!

            What I was trying to get across was that the idea of real presence, as understood by the Roman Catholic Church, not being found in the pages of Scripture--especially John 6. 

            Ok, but, why?

            My brother calls himself Roman Catholic but does not believe in purgatory (neither do I) nor does he even know what Real Presence is, does that make him a protestant? 

            No, but its just a point of view. You can be a jew and don't bileive in real presence, but the ways to have this conclusion is too different of your (protestants) becouse protestant theology use the human doctrine of Sola Scriptura to understand what is more confortable to their minds and to their people. If Jn 6 doesn't teach the real presence, it must be a unique intepretation in all those protestant churchs that use the same tool of interpretation - the called Sola Scriptura - but it don't happened even in the begginig of the refomation, when Luther reject the anabaptist for their new doctrines of rebatism and probably other inovations, like reject the real presence, what he hardly bilieved.

            Can one not beleive in purgatory and/or Real Presence and still be a Catholic?

            Of course not, at leat Romam Catholic because here in Brazil we have some "churchs" that label themselves like "Brazilian Catholic Churchs", but they are not but others sects agains papacy and the church of Christ authority.

            Obrigado,

            De nada (you're welcome) and excuse-me in my inglish, i have to improve it! :-)

            Abraços
            Rondinelly

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Rondinelly Ribeiro [mailto:apologista@...]
            Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 7:23 AM
            To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.


            Hey, it depends if you a historical protestant, like lutheran or anglican, or not. Understand?

            Newman was anglican, and yet before he converts to catholic he "understand Jn 6" and yet believe in transubstantiation. Even lutheran believe in it, but whith other name - cosubstantiation - but in fact it's the same.

            Thus you are a protestant, you can't affirm that just being a protestant is umbelieve in transubstantiation.

            Abraços
            Rondinelly
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Calvin Fabre
            To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 1:10 AM
            Subject: RE: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.


            Newman may have said, "to go deep into history is to cease to become Protestant."  I would add, "to read and understand John 6 is to cease to believe in Transubstantiation"

            -Calvin


             


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          • Mike Stockmeyer
            Hi Rondinelli! Purgatory comes out of Sacred Scripture and Tradition and I am sure many here will explain that! I just wanted to add another twist based
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 3, 2002
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              Hi Rondinelli!    Purgatory comes out of Sacred Scripture and Tradition and I am sure many here will explain that!   I just wanted to add another twist based on LOGIC  I believe that when it comes to spiritual growth we are basically on a Journey.  One of the many things that changed after the "Fall in the garden" is as Humans we do not really have a natural ability to Love in a Healthy manner.  In other words our love is not perfect and is a mixture of selfishness, fear, control, greed, lust, etc.   As we go through our Earthly journey and are trying to grow Spiritually....Our ability to Love grows directly proportional to Our Spiritual growth.   It is an absolute Truth that those on Earth that love God have the greatest ability to give Healthy Love to God, themselves, and their Neighbor.
                    So before We share in Gods Glory, we have to be able to give Him perfect Love or we won't even Understand His Perfect love and Glory.  The part of Us that can not "Love perfectly" must be purged out on earth.....if that doesn't occur it stands to reason that an in between place must exist where Our inability to "Love perfectly" is purged out.   God is 'Perfect justice" and any other explanation about what occurs after Our deaths would not include His Perfect justice.
               
                                                        God Bless,  Mike
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 8:15 AM
              Subject: Re: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.

              Matt, how are you? I'm from Brazil and i'm a great reader of your debates
              with protestants. You are doing a great apostolate with this, and i'm glad
              to thank you for help me in lots of issues. So, i'd like to ask you
              something about other thing, and this is about purgatory. (hey, just
              remembering - i'm catholic!). I'm know the hole teology about purgatory and
              the misconceptions that protestants ever do with this, but there's som that
              is interesting: The question is: Does Tertullian accept or not the
              conception of a purgatory? Protestants say NO! He doen't, becouse he
              rejected this in some of his letters, but all catholic apologist quote him
              whem are in defense of purgatory. Could you help in this?

              Thanks
              Rondinelly - Brazil
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <matt161819@...>
              To: <catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 3:08 PM
              Subject: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.


              > In answering the question of the Real Presence we must take under
              consideration other related questions, all the while understanding that the
              answers we give must be consistent; not because we are pedants or slaves to
              a narrow reason, but because of the unity of God and the unity of truth
              which flows from His Being and His creation.
              > Related questions have to do ultimately with the role of matter, both in
              creation and the recreation Christ brings to us in the New Covenant. Other
              questions have to do with God's own relationship to His creation and this
              ultimately brings up the matters of Sainthood and sanctification. Finally,
              there are scriptures which must be interpreted.
              > For example, St. Paul states, "I am dead, yet I live. But it no longer I
              who live, but Christ who lives in me."
              > Are we to regard this statement as merely figurative? Or do we find in St.
              Paul the Real Presence; is he speaking of his own "transubstantiation"...or
              just giving into hyperbole?
              > When the Pilgrims and others of the radical dualist mind-set eschew matter
              as intrincally evil and opt for a doctrine of radical transcendence, how did
              they then understand St. Paul's exhortation in Romans 12:1?
              > If Paul thought like a modern day evangelical, strict Calvanist or
              fundamentalist would he have said such a thing as he does in Collosians
              1:24? or Romans 12:1? Or would he have said something like this:
              > "Your bodies are useless. First, because they are matter and matter is
              worthless and good for nothing; we are in the Spirit.  Second, you are to
              despise the body in a most thoroughgoing way, since it remains corrupt and
              unredeemed, as our great founders Luther and Calvin have taught us. So to
              offer it in sacrifice is nothing but an insult to God and the Christ. First
              because it is intrinsically corrupt. And second because Christ has made the
              only sacrifice and is the only mediator, not only unique, but utterly
              disconnected to anything and anyone else."
              > Either matter is intrinsically evil or it's not. Either our bodies are
              acceptable in Christ as sacrificial offerings united to His sacrifice or
              they are not. Either we are covered only and remain corrupt or we are
              renewed inwardly and transformed into Christ by Christ, and are therefore
              saved sinners only insofar as we are transformed into Christ and made
              saints.
              > The reformer's insistence on changing the ancient and persistent teaching
              of the Church on the Eucharist was made necessary because of a change of
              identity in the believer and of the understanding of the relationship of the
              believer to God and the work of Christ. If Christ only covers us with HIs
              righteousness and we remain corrupt and unchanged within, then neither
              Transubstantiation nor the possibility of becoming saints as Scripture
              defines saints can be realities in any way but metaphorical. God is utterly
              transcendent, having nothing to do with matter.
              > As time progressed in Protestant thought the emphasis on transcendence
              caused even the incarnation to be regarded as myth.
              > We must see doctrine one of two ways: As somethign simply man-made based
              upon symbol and myths. Or as God revealed,  as integral, flowing from the
              Unity of God's own being, and formulated in the Church by the inspiration of
              the Paraclete, the advocate, the Spirit of Truth (not the spirit of
              opinion)who would speak through men in Christ's name.
              > IF God is really present in the Holy Spirit to teach us through the
              apostles and their heirs, the Bishops, God is also really present to nourish
              and empower us, and just as in Biblical time, matter was the stuff He chose.
              > If all this is true then the Protestant view on the Eucharist is therefore
              unscriptural, contrary to Tradition, contrary to ancient and sound doctrine,
              unhistorical and contracitory to and inconsistent with other realities which
              are at the Heart of the Christian faith, most notably the Incarnation.
              > As Newman said, "to go deep into history is to cease to become
              Protestant."
              > Tom
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > catholicquestions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >





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            • matt161819@aol.com
              In a message dated 12/1/02 8:26:06 AM, apologista@hotpop.com writes:
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 3, 2002
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                In a message dated 12/1/02 8:26:06 AM, apologista@... writes:

                << Matt, how are you? I'm from Brazil and i'm a great reader of your debates
                with protestants. You are doing a great apostolate with this, and i'm glad
                to thank you for help me in lots of issues. So, i'd like to ask you
                something about other thing, and this is about purgatory. (hey, just
                remembering - i'm catholic!). I'm know the hole teology about purgatory and
                the misconceptions that protestants ever do with this, but there's som that
                is interesting: The question is: Does Tertullian accept or not the
                conception of a purgatory? Protestants say NO! He doen't, becouse he
                rejected this in some of his letters, but all catholic apologist quote him
                whem are in defense of purgatory. Could you help in this? >>

                I'm not familiar with tertulian enough to comment on this matter. In any
                case, no individual Father of the Church can speak authoritatively and
                bindingly, only the Magisterium of the Church. Our doctrine is not formed by
                individual opinion, but by the Holy Spirit guiding the Pope and all the
                bishops in union with him.
                Regarding purgatory, let me recommend Karl Keating's book Catholicism and
                Fundamentalism, pub. Ignatius press (I think). It's an excellent basic
                reference on this and many other issues which protestants and Catholics
                debate upon.
                Tom
              • Calvin Fabre
                Muito boa noite, você fala português? (Do you speak portuguese?) I don t speak much Portuguese, but I did spend some time in Rio, Sao Paulo and Forteleza.
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 9, 2002
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                  Message
                  Muito boa noite, você fala português? (Do you speak portuguese?)
                  I don't speak much Portuguese, but I did spend some time in Rio, Sao Paulo and Forteleza.  Just enough to know the difference between a Churrascaria and a Caipirinha.
                   
                  Ok, but, why?
                  John 6 is contrasting the eating and drinking with coming to him and believing in him.  Not literally eating him at every Mass.  "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty"
                   
                  Thanks,
                   
                  Calvin
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rondinelly Ribeiro [mailto:apologista@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 7:33 PM
                  To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.


                  Boa noite Rondinelly,

                  Muito boa noite, você fala português? (Do you speak portuguese?)

                  Thanks for the reply. 

                  How...

                  I was not saying that all protestants believe in real presence. 

                  It's not a surprise for me, for sure!

                  What I was trying to get across was that the idea of real presence, as understood by the Roman Catholic Church, not being found in the pages of Scripture--especially John 6. 

                  Ok, but, why?

                  My brother calls himself Roman Catholic but does not believe in purgatory (neither do I) nor does he even know what Real Presence is, does that make him a protestant? 

                  No, but its just a point of view. You can be a jew and don't bileive in real presence, but the ways to have this conclusion is too different of your (protestants) becouse protestant theology use the human doctrine of Sola Scriptura to understand what is more confortable to their minds and to their people. If Jn 6 doesn't teach the real presence, it must be a unique intepretation in all those protestant churchs that use the same tool of interpretation - the called Sola Scriptura - but it don't happened even in the begginig of the refomation, when Luther reject the anabaptist for their new doctrines of rebatism and probably other inovations, like reject the real presence, what he hardly bilieved.

                  Can one not beleive in purgatory and/or Real Presence and still be a Catholic?

                  Of course not, at leat Romam Catholic because here in Brazil we have some "churchs" that label themselves like "Brazilian Catholic Churchs", but they are not but others sects agains papacy and the church of Christ authority.

                  Obrigado,

                  De nada (you're welcome) and excuse-me in my inglish, i have to improve it! :-)

                  Abraços
                  Rondinelly

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rondinelly Ribeiro [mailto:apologista@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 7:23 AM
                  To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.


                  Hey, it depends if you a historical protestant, like lutheran or anglican, or not. Understand?

                  Newman was anglican, and yet before he converts to catholic he "understand Jn 6" and yet believe in transubstantiation. Even lutheran believe in it, but whith other name - cosubstantiation - but in fact it's the same.

                  Thus you are a protestant, you can't affirm that just being a protestant is umbelieve in transubstantiation.

                  Abraços
                  Rondinelly
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Calvin Fabre
                  To: catholicquestions@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 1:10 AM
                  Subject: RE: Catholic Questions The Real Presence: what is at stake.


                  Newman may have said, "to go deep into history is to cease to become Protestant."  I would add, "to read and understand John 6 is to cease to believe in Transubstantiation"

                  -Calvin


                   


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