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Re: [casting] Re: Pepakura helmet again: material choice?

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  • Greg Krynen
    As a kid my dad used expanding foam to make us some storm trooper type helmets. Once cured it is nontoxic to touch. Eating and inhaling is a whole different
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 31, 2011
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      As a kid my dad used expanding foam to make us some storm trooper type helmets. Once cured it is nontoxic to touch. Eating and inhaling is a whole different matter. Same with styrofoam.

       
      Greg  Krynen


      "And that's the biggest thing you realize -- is that you don't have to know it all before you do something, as long as you know that you can figure out how to learn how to do it." Karen Thorndike of Seattle


      ________________________________
      From: Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
      To: casting@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:46 AM
      Subject: Re: [casting] Re: Pepakura helmet again: material choice?


       
      Hi John,

      Thanks for your comments, and these reasons are exactly why I'm
      asking. I am fairly familiar with epoxy, polyester and PU, but only
      in a professional environment, not in children's hands.

      Rob

      At 15:31 31-08-2011, you wrote:
      >You would have to exceedingly careful about some of the materials you
      >are proposing. There could be unwanted medical / health side effects
      >with expanding foams and other materials of that type. Get the
      >applicable Osha datasheets to verify that they would be safe to use an a
      >child's head ( or an adult for that matter ). I am not an advocate of
      >the nanny state, but I protect my children.
      >John C. Willis
      >Mobile, Al
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Cliff Manley
      Material Safety Data Sheets should be used by experienced, and trained, safety professionals in an environment of open communication between the worker and the
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 31, 2011
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        Material Safety Data Sheets should be used by experienced, and trained, safety professionals in an environment of open communication between the worker and the manager. They are NOT meant to be used by amateurs. Or untrained (in an OH&S sense) workers. 

        This ALSO applies to any OH&S Legislation that may be in place regarding the work place you are employed in. 

        Along with Law books etc...

        Do you get my point?
         
        Cliff Manley (Dip OH&S Mgt)
        Southport Qld
        Australia


        ________________________________
        From: Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
        To: casting@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 1 September 2011 4:40 AM
        Subject: RE: [casting] Pepakura helmet again: material choice?


         
        Hi Stephen,

        Thanks for your comments. The point you make about sanding fiberglass
        is what steers me away from it for my nephew, although I work with
        composites nearly every day. So I know what you mean with not
        touching your head while sanding :-)

        To be honest, I find MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) to be fairly
        useless to establish the dangers of materials. They all recommend
        'suitable' safety precautions, usually without any suggestions what
        to actually use in terms of glove material (latex, vinyl, PU) or dust
        masks. I would rather rely on experiences of other users.

        I still haven't decided yet what materials to use, and the test
        pieces I hoped to make today are postponed until tomorrow.

        Rob

        At 02:42 31-08-2011, you wrote:
        >Rob,
        >
        >As to the toxicity of dry resin and epoxy dust I would check with OSHA. You
        >can find it on the web.
        >
        >But, generally, inhaling dust particles of any type is not a good idea,
        >especially of a toxic material such as a resin or an exceedingly abrasive
        >material such as fiberglass dust. Inhaling smoke is bad enough but these
        >abrasive particles are to be avoided. When I have to sand something I just
        >have a fan blowing the particles away from my body. Also I do not sand or
        >grind anything indoors as it invariably makes a mess and gets my wife mad at
        >me, as usual.
        >
        >Yes, I know there are lots of guys who say I am being too safety conscious.
        >Well, I've been making models and sculpture with all sorts of resins and
        >fiberglass and wood and styrene plastics and all their glues and adhesives
        >since 1942, and I'm still here yakking about it.
        >
        >I would not make a big deal about it. Let the kid wear a regular 3M mask one
        >gets at a hardware store or a drugstore and just have a fan blowing the
        >stuff away from him. There should be no problem. Also, an inexpensive
        >plastic eye protector (cheap goggles) would be a good idea to keep the stuff
        >out of his eyes. Simple safety procedures should be fine.
        >
        >Tell him to keep his hands away from his face, however. I learned that
        >lesson the hard way once.
        >
        >By the way, if you do lay up some fiberglass and then grind it, be aware
        >that the particles will stay on the skin for 24 hours, even after a shower,
        >and itch like crazy. The itching never bothered me as I guess I am rather
        >insensitive to it. My wife has been claiming that I am insensitive for many
        >years.
        >
        >Don't let me scare you away from using it and have some fun with the stuff.
        >
        >
        >Stephen
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        >From: casting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:casting@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        >Rob de Bie
        >Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 4:30 PM
        >To: casting@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [casting] Pepakura helmet again: material choice?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Hi Stephen,
        >
        >Thanks again for your comments. I'm considering working outdoors too,
        >and maybe wet to keep the dust down. Or maybe in the kitchen sink,
        >partly filled with water.
        >
        >I still want to pick the safest materials possible. I know PU dust
        >can cause problems, but I don't recall stories about epoxy. Before
        >curing epoxy can cause allergy problems, but after cure it seems to
        >be relatively safe.
        >
        >Do you have recommendations?
        >
        >Rob
        >
        >At 20:53 30-08-2011, you wrote:
        > >Hi Rob,
        > >
        > >It's me, the worrywart again.
        > >
        > >When sanding or grinding I wear a rubber face mask that covers half my face
        > >and has two cartridges screwed into it that filter all the air that I
        > >breathe. I do not trust those silly cheap face masks that are held in place
        > >with a rubber band. It's my lungs that I am protecting. I also work
        >outdoors
        > >preferably in a breeze blowing the dust away from me. I change clothes
        > >before I go inside afterward to leave the dust laden duds outside. But I am
        > >making sculpture with the resin, fiberglass and power grinders so I do
        > >create a lot of dangerous dust.
        > >
        > >The precautions you take are up to you. When my children worked with this
        > >material I saw to it that they were protected.
        > >
        > >Some guys will laugh at my precautions. But at least I do not have to worry
        > >about lung cancer later in my life from all the dust I would be breathing
        >in
        > >now.
        > >
        > >I know a number of modelers who work with resin kits without proper
        > >protection. I figure that is their problem. I'm not their parent. I have
        > >voiced my concern on the model forums and I leave it at that.
        > >
        > >Of course I think back on what we used to do when I was a kid, especially
        > >with chemicals, and I wonder how I am still alive.
        > >
        > >We used to practically wash our bare hands in chemicals that Hazmat now
        > >advises firemen to not even approach, much less move.
        > >
        > >Stephen
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > _____
        > >
        > >From: casting@yahoogroups.com <mailto:casting%40yahoogroups.com>
        >[mailto:casting@yahoogroups.com <mailto:casting%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
        >Behalf Of
        > >Rob de Bie
        > >Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 2:00 PM
        > >To: casting@yahoogroups.com <mailto:casting%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >Subject: [casting] Pepakura helmet again: material choice?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >Yesterday I asked about mixing microballoons in polyurethane casting
        > >resin. As explained, I'm helping my nephew building a helmet from the
        > >videogame Halo 3. He's building it as a paper model, made with
        > >Pepakura software. Here's what it should look like when he done with
        > >the paper parts:
        > >
        > >http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/54/533684faf3be4381b202398a2acd
        >4
        > >cb6/l.jpg
        > >
        > >We want to reinforce it on the inside with a (say) 5 mm thick shell.
        > >The usual techniques are manually 'rotocasting' it with PU resin, or
        > >fiberglassing it with epoxy or polyester. Maybe a thickened resin
        > >would work better.
        > >
        > >After making the shell, he wants to improve the helmet's appearance
        > >by getting rid of the facets of the paper model. It will probably be
        > >a combination of sanding off the edges of the facets, and adding some
        > >kind of filler between the edges.
        > >
        > >This made me think again about the material options. Maybe sanding a
        > >PU shell is a bad idea? I've heard plenty of stories of modelers
        > >getting nose bleeds and other problems from the PU dust. Would epoxy
        > >with micro make a better choice in that respect? And what kind of
        > >filler would be easiest to apply and sand? Good old (smelly)
        > >polyester body filler? Or again epoxy with micro?
        > >
        > >All suggestions are appreciated!
        > >
        > >Rob
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >------------------------------------
        > >
        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tim
        You visited the 405th web page? They have TONS of info on the construction of those helmets, including on materials to use.
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 31, 2011
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          You visited the 405th web page? They have TONS of info on the construction of those helmets, including on materials to use.

          --- In casting@yahoogroups.com, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
          >
          > Yesterday I asked about mixing microballoons in polyurethane casting
          > resin. As explained, I'm helping my nephew building a helmet from the
          > videogame Halo 3. He's building it as a paper model, made with
          > Pepakura software. Here's what it should look like when he done with
          > the paper parts:
          >
          > http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/54/533684faf3be4381b202398a2acd4cb6/l.jpg
          >
          > We want to reinforce it on the inside with a (say) 5 mm thick shell.
          > The usual techniques are manually 'rotocasting' it with PU resin, or
          > fiberglassing it with epoxy or polyester. Maybe a thickened resin
          > would work better.
          >
          > After making the shell, he wants to improve the helmet's appearance
          > by getting rid of the facets of the paper model. It will probably be
          > a combination of sanding off the edges of the facets, and adding some
          > kind of filler between the edges.
          >
          > This made me think again about the material options. Maybe sanding a
          > PU shell is a bad idea? I've heard plenty of stories of modelers
          > getting nose bleeds and other problems from the PU dust. Would epoxy
          > with micro make a better choice in that respect? And what kind of
          > filler would be easiest to apply and sand? Good old (smelly)
          > polyester body filler? Or again epoxy with micro?
          >
          > All suggestions are appreciated!
          >
          > Rob
          >
        • Michael
          I would rather rely on experiences of other users. Well, the ones that lived, anyway. Michael the Crank
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 1, 2011
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            "I would rather rely on experiences of other users."

            Well, the ones that lived, anyway.
            Michael the Crank
          • Rob de Bie
            Hi Doc, Nice sculpt! But I m pretty sure my nephew would balk at the challenge of sculpting his helmet.. In the mean time I made micro mixes with epoxy and PU,
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 2, 2011
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              Hi Doc,

              Nice sculpt! But I'm pretty sure my nephew would balk at the
              challenge of sculpting his helmet..

              In the mean time I made micro mixes with epoxy and PU, both to a
              paste consistency so they wouldn't run or sag. Both resins
              impregnated the paper nicely, so there are no fuzzy edges when the
              helmet would be sanded.

              I like the epoxy version best, it sands very nicely yet a fingernail
              pushed in hardly leaves a mark. The PU mix is much more easily
              damaged. I also like the slow setting of the epoxy, after a few hours
              it's still slightly flexible, which would allow for small shape changes.

              To be continued!

              Rob




              At 21:41 02-09-2011, you wrote:
              >At 11:44 AM 31/08/2011, you wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >Hi Brian,
              > >
              > >You're right that the paper-resin-sanding route is very laborious.
              > >But neither my nephew or I could ever sculpt such an object from scratch!
              >
              >Don't be too sure!
              >
              >I was able to do some basic work with Plasticine on Styrofoam.
              >http://robot-one.com/mydummy/md50.jpg
              >And I don't have a lot of artistic skills. Ears are a real bugger!
              >
              >DOC
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • doc
              ... Don t be too sure! I was able to do some basic work with Plasticine on Styrofoam. http://robot-one.com/mydummy/md50.jpg And I don t have a lot of artistic
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 2, 2011
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                At 11:44 AM 31/08/2011, you wrote:
                >
                >
                >Hi Brian,
                >
                >You're right that the paper-resin-sanding route is very laborious.
                >But neither my nephew or I could ever sculpt such an object from scratch!

                Don't be too sure!

                I was able to do some basic work with Plasticine on Styrofoam.
                http://robot-one.com/mydummy/md50.jpg
                And I don't have a lot of artistic skills. Ears are a real bugger!

                DOC
              • doc
                ... Did you post a pic for this somewhere? Be curious to see how it s going. DOC Open the pod bay doors HAL!
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 3, 2011
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                  At 10:48 AM 02/09/2011, you wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >Hi Doc,

                  ...


                  >To be continued!
                  >
                  >Rob

                  Did you post a pic for this somewhere?

                  Be curious to see how it's going.

                  DOC


                  Open the pod bay doors HAL!
                • Rob de Bie
                  Hi Doc, I haven t made photos so far, and progress with the paper phase is pretty slow. But I ll try to shoot some photos of this project. Rob
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 4, 2011
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                    Hi Doc,

                    I haven't made photos so far, and progress with the paper phase is
                    pretty slow. But I'll try to shoot some photos of this project.

                    Rob

                    At 18:29 03-09-2011, you wrote:
                    >At 10:48 AM 02/09/2011, you wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >Hi Doc,
                    >
                    >...
                    >
                    >
                    > >To be continued!
                    > >
                    > >Rob
                    >
                    >Did you post a pic for this somewhere?
                    >
                    >Be curious to see how it's going.
                    >
                    >DOC
                    >
                    >
                    >Open the pod bay doors HAL!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Mike Jackson
                    ... safety professionals in an environment of open communication between the worker and the manager. They are NOT meant to be used by amateurs. Or untrained
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 5, 2011
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                      > Material Safety Data Sheets should be used by experienced, and trained,
                      safety professionals in an environment of open communication between the
                      worker and the manager. They are NOT meant to be used by amateurs. Or
                      untrained (in an OH&S sense) workers.

                      Hmm, like using the rules that dictate how to respond to a post in digest
                      form?

                      One should always delete the extraneous text in a digest reply in order to
                      reduce the bandwidth used by said reply, thereby saving some recipients the
                      cost they incur when paying by the byte rather than by the month. And
                      incidentally reducing the size of the emails that the rest of us have to
                      deal with on a daily basis.

                      The government wouldn't require merchants to include MSDS's in shipments
                      unless they actually expect the recipient to use them. I've never seen a
                      rule anywhere that instructs someone who can read to NOT read an MSDS.
                      Though I suspect that the MSDS really only serves to try to protect the
                      shipper from lawsuits...

                      Yes, they're written in technical form with a lot of "governmentalese"
                      thrown in for good measure, but it hasn't caused me harm yet to be aware of
                      the potentials of the materials I use in my shop.

                      - Mike


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Cliff Manley
                      Ok, for a start I don t get emails from this list in digest form... so what you are talking about beats the crap out of me... maybe someone else replied and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 5, 2011
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                        Ok, for a start I don't get emails from this list in "digest" form...
                        so what you are talking about beats the crap out of me... maybe
                        someone else replied and I didn't delete THEIR digest... for that I'm
                        sorry...

                        As I said, MSDS are meant to be read by "educated" people, by
                        "educated" I mean someone educated in reading ""governmentalese""
                        although I struggle to see why you used quotes here... I used quotes
                        because I'm quoting you... quoting a word that doesn't exist...
                        educated in an OH&S realm, or in a Legislative realm...

                        I have a Diploma in OH&S Management, I have years of experience in
                        OH&S Management both as a Manager and a Union Delegate so I've seen
                        both sides of the fence... they ARE NOT worded that way to protect the
                        Lawyers, or the Managers from liability, they are worded that way so
                        there can be NO doubt as to the veracity of their intention. They need
                        to be specific and they need to be interpreted by someone that
                        understands that specificity.

                        I trained OH&S Managers and Union Reps in interpreting MSDS... talk to
                        someone that knows what the MSDS is getting at if you don't understand
                        it...

                        On 06/09/2011, at 12:25 PM, Mike Jackson wrote:

                        > > Material Safety Data Sheets should be used by experienced, and
                        > trained,
                        > safety professionals in an environment of open communication between
                        > the
                        > worker and the manager. They are NOT meant to be used by amateurs. Or
                        > untrained (in an OH&S sense) workers.
                        >
                        > Hmm, like using the rules that dictate how to respond to a post in
                        > digest
                        > form?
                        >
                        > One should always delete the extraneous text in a digest reply in
                        > order to
                        > reduce the bandwidth used by said reply, thereby saving some
                        > recipients the
                        > cost they incur when paying by the byte rather than by the month. And
                        > incidentally reducing the size of the emails that the rest of us
                        > have to
                        > deal with on a daily basis.
                        >
                        > The government wouldn't require merchants to include MSDS's in
                        > shipments
                        > unless they actually expect the recipient to use them. I've never
                        > seen a
                        > rule anywhere that instructs someone who can read to NOT read an MSDS.
                        > Though I suspect that the MSDS really only serves to try to protect
                        > the
                        > shipper from lawsuits...
                        >
                        > Yes, they're written in technical form with a lot of "governmentalese"
                        > thrown in for good measure, but it hasn't caused me harm yet to be
                        > aware of
                        > the potentials of the materials I use in my shop.
                        >
                        > - Mike
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Rob de Bie
                        Hi Tim, Yes, the 405th forum was the starting point for me, I didn t know anything about Pepakure up to that point :-) I just searched the 405th forum for
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 7, 2011
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                          Hi Tim,

                          Yes, the 405th forum was the starting point for me, I didn't know
                          anything about Pepakure up to that point :-)

                          I just searched the 405th forum for 'microballoons' and found two
                          postings. It's good to know that at least someone else tried the
                          method I'm considering.

                          Rob

                          At 01:34 01-09-2011, you wrote:
                          >You visited the 405th web page? They have TONS of info on the
                          >construction of those helmets, including on materials to use.
                          >
                          >--- In casting@yahoogroups.com, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Yesterday I asked about mixing microballoons in polyurethane casting
                          > > resin. As explained, I'm helping my nephew building a helmet from the
                          > > videogame Halo 3. He's building it as a paper model, made with
                          > > Pepakura software. Here's what it should look like when he done with
                          > > the paper parts:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/54/533684faf3be4381b202398a2acd4cb6/l.jpg
                          > >
                          > > We want to reinforce it on the inside with a (say) 5 mm thick shell.
                          > > The usual techniques are manually 'rotocasting' it with PU resin, or
                          > > fiberglassing it with epoxy or polyester. Maybe a thickened resin
                          > > would work better.
                          > >
                          > > After making the shell, he wants to improve the helmet's appearance
                          > > by getting rid of the facets of the paper model. It will probably be
                          > > a combination of sanding off the edges of the facets, and adding some
                          > > kind of filler between the edges.
                          > >
                          > > This made me think again about the material options. Maybe sanding a
                          > > PU shell is a bad idea? I've heard plenty of stories of modelers
                          > > getting nose bleeds and other problems from the PU dust. Would epoxy
                          > > with micro make a better choice in that respect? And what kind of
                          > > filler would be easiest to apply and sand? Good old (smelly)
                          > > polyester body filler? Or again epoxy with micro?
                          > >
                          > > All suggestions are appreciated!
                          > >
                          > > Rob
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >------------------------------------
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Mike Jackson
                          ... mean someone educated in reading governmentalese although I struggle to see why you used quotes here... Because I thought that it was a made up word,
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 14, 2011
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                            > As I said, MSDS are meant to be read by "educated" people, by "educated" I
                            mean someone educated in reading ""governmentalese"" although I struggle to
                            see why you used quotes here...

                            Because I thought that it was a made up word, that it doesn't exist, but it
                            gets across the idea that some things are just plain hard to read and/or
                            understand. I've had few problems reading MSDS's, and though I am indeed
                            uneducated in the field of understanding "governmentalese", I'm fairly sure
                            that I'm not so stupid that I could not understand the MSDS's.

                            > they ARE NOT worded that way to protect the Lawyers, or the Managers from
                            liability, they are worded that way so there can be NO doubt as to the
                            veracity of their intention.

                            "... the veracity of their intention..." To the truthfulness of their
                            intention? As in how they intend for the end user to utilize the product?
                            That sounds like a set of instructions to me. And I recall copious warnings
                            in almost every MSDS I've read as to what not to do with the products.
                            Still sounds like instructions to me.

                            I was informed that one of the reasons for the wording was to give the
                            manufacturer some protection from liability. "Hey, it says right in the
                            MSDS that you shouldn't handle it in that manner. We clearly (and legally)
                            stated how to use it and how not to use it." I could have been misinformed.

                            > I trained OH&S Managers and Union Reps in interpreting MSDS...

                            That's great, but (IMO) maybe you could do better by being a bit less
                            authoritative and a bit more helpful. Maybe you could break some of those
                            MSDS's down into layman language. I did that for the rare disorder that my
                            wife had (www.jfw-melas.net) and it was picked up and published all over the
                            world. It was even translated into Polish!

                            I suppose that I was just put off by your wording, it sounded a bit like
                            some of us are the poor uneducated simpletons that should bow down and
                            worship at the altar of the high priests of casting. Kinda got my goat.
                            :O)

                            - Mike
                          • hayes
                            Well said,Mike...as usual! From: Mike Jackson Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:50 PM To: casting@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [casting] Pepakura helmet
                            Message 13 of 25 , Sep 15, 2011
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                              Well said,Mike...as usual!

                              From: Mike Jackson
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:50 PM
                              To: casting@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [casting] Pepakura helmet again: material choice?


                              > As I said, MSDS are meant to be read by "educated" people, by "educated" I
                              mean someone educated in reading ""governmentalese"" although I struggle to
                              see why you used quotes here...

                              Because I thought that it was a made up word, that it doesn't exist, but it
                              gets across the idea that some things are just plain hard to read and/or
                              understand. I've had few problems reading MSDS's, and though I am indeed
                              uneducated in the field of understanding "governmentalese", I'm fairly sure
                              that I'm not so stupid that I could not understand the MSDS's.

                              > they ARE NOT worded that way to protect the Lawyers, or the Managers from
                              liability, they are worded that way so there can be NO doubt as to the
                              veracity of their intention.

                              "... the veracity of their intention..." To the truthfulness of their
                              intention? As in how they intend for the end user to utilize the product?
                              That sounds like a set of instructions to me. And I recall copious warnings
                              in almost every MSDS I've read as to what not to do with the products.
                              Still sounds like instructions to me.

                              I was informed that one of the reasons for the wording was to give the
                              manufacturer some protection from liability. "Hey, it says right in the
                              MSDS that you shouldn't handle it in that manner. We clearly (and legally)
                              stated how to use it and how not to use it." I could have been misinformed.

                              > I trained OH&S Managers and Union Reps in interpreting MSDS...

                              That's great, but (IMO) maybe you could do better by being a bit less
                              authoritative and a bit more helpful. Maybe you could break some of those
                              MSDS's down into layman language. I did that for the rare disorder that my
                              wife had (www.jfw-melas.net) and it was picked up and published all over the
                              world. It was even translated into Polish!

                              I suppose that I was just put off by your wording, it sounded a bit like
                              some of us are the poor uneducated simpletons that should bow down and
                              worship at the altar of the high priests of casting. Kinda got my goat.
                              :O)

                              - Mike




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