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Re: thanks all for being here

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  • Tibor Kiss
    ... If you do that (even for yourself and not for profit) you violate copyright laws. However, if you scratch built a model of the appropriate scale, and say:
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 8 12:05 AM
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      >them. Two is the other hobby i have of Warhammer 40K, a sci-fi wargame
      >involving two opposing armies of troops, artillery, vehicles,etc. i would
      >like to be able to create my own vehicle variants based on molds of the
      >origionals.


      If you do that (even for yourself and not for profit) you violate copyright
      laws. However, if you scratch built a model of the appropriate scale, and
      say: "Hey, that is the new Rhino Mk2" and use the same stats, it is
      perfectly fine. (I am not sure, but GW might have copyright on the name
      Rhino as well. Name it Elephant, then.)

      >decision, that being to use RTV for molds, as far as i can tell, this gives


      Yes, RTV is the one and only thing. (You could use vulcanized rubber, which
      lasts longer, but you need a metal master and a bit of equipment to
      vulcanize.)
    • Barry Vedros
      Hey FrostDruid! Glad to see another JOEhead here. This is a great list. Not alot of posts compared to our other haunts, but it s definitely quality over
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 7, 1998
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        Hey FrostDruid!
        Glad to see another JOEhead here. This is a great list. Not alot of posts
        compared to our other haunts, but it's definitely quality over quantity
        here. Lots of knowledgeble folks.
        I'm going to order some stuff from Alumalite and try some casting over the
        holidays. We close up shop for the week between Christmas and New Years so
        I get an extra week vacation. Right now I'm taking my first shot at
        photo-etching (in between shopping with the wife). I'm doing some belt and
        equipment buckles for starters. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
        Enjoy the Casting list.

        Barry Vedros
        barry@...
        Follow me to the Sandbox
        (alt.toys.gi-joe)


        -----Original Message-----
        From: FrostDruid@... <FrostDruid@...>
        To: casting@onelist.com <casting@onelist.com>
        Date: Monday, December 07, 1998 11:29 AM
        Subject: [casting] thanks all for being here


        >From: FrostDruid@...
        >
        >I am new to the list (2nd day) and thought i might tell you all a little
        about
        >myself.
        >
        >I am 31 years old, married and have one 7 year old boy, and two idiot cats.
        >
        >My interest in molding and casting has come about from two things. One is
        my
        >recently new hobby of playing with/collecting GIJoe and Century 21 toys'
        12"
        >action figures, i want to create my own futuristic weaponry and accesories
        for
        >them. Two is the other hobby i have of Warhammer 40K, a sci-fi wargame
        >involving two opposing armies of troops, artillery, vehicles,etc. i would
        >like to be able to create my own vehicle variants based on molds of the
        >origionals.
        >
        >My molding/casting experience is nil, i have just read a book by Thurston
        >James entitled The Prop Builders Molding and Casting Handbook. This was my
        >first source of info and it is excellent if a little overwhelming. I think
        >half the battle is figuring out what materials to use for the mold and what
        >materials will give the best properties in your casting. I have only made
        one
        >decision, that being to use RTV for molds, as far as i can tell, this gives
        >the most reliable results and allows a little more for undercuts and design
        >problems in the master. (although i am sure to limit this as much as
        possible)
        >
        >My questions will be directed more towards what casting material gives such
        >and such a result: extreme flexibility/flexibility/rigidity and strength
        vs
        >fragility, etc.
        >for now i am reading the faq's and archives to figure out what is an
        >intelligent question and if it has already been covered.
        >
        >Oh well that's all for now folks, thanks again for being here, i am sure
        you
        >all will be an invaluable resource as the months and projects go by.
        >
        > Frost (alex reitor iii)
        >
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        >to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
        >select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
        >------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >Don't forget to e-mail pat at: miracle-castings@... with photos of
        your castings for the web site. Also, please let him know who your suppliers
        are.
        >
      • Mike Bauers
        ... And to really complicate the issue.... I m getting a 3d scanner to create starter cads that when complete will then be output in one or more different
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 8, 1998
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          On 09-Dec-98, Stan Smith wrote:
          >From: Stan Smith <Stan.D.Smith@...>

          >Dan Pikulski wrote:

          >>
          >>
          >> The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction
          >> in
          >> copies or recordings or by any other means, for purposes such as
          >> criticism,
          >> coment, news reporting, teaching (including mutliple copies for
          >> classroom
          >> use), Scholorship, or research, is not an infringment of copyright.

          >Folks, the answer is simple: If you are making copies for *your own
          >use*, and are *not selling or seeking to make a profit from them*, you
          >are *safe* as far as copyright is concerned. Bottom line: if it's not
          >yours, don't sell itunless you give the original creator a cut :^).

          And to really complicate the issue.... I'm getting a 3d scanner to create
          starter cads that when complete will then be output in one or more different
          scales and finished as final patterns with a computer controlled
          engraver/miller

          Case in point; a line of 1/64 highway trucks that will be later recombined as
          different mixes of cabs, frames, and 'boxes/tanks' in
          1/160 scale.

          Other example; HO long-OOP Walthers Doodle-bug scanned, resulting in cast
          ends, roof, and etched sides; all detailed beyond the quality of the original
          masters and output in three scales.

          Am I properly improving and changing the originals to new masters by my
          methods and scale changes???

          Mike Bauers
        • Miracle Castings Inc.
          ... Hi All! Since we re into discussing the legalities of reproducing someone elses stuff, the reality of it as far as my research is concerned is this: First
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 8, 1998
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            Tibor wrote:
            >
            >If you do that (even for yourself and not for profit) you violate copyright
            >laws. However, if you scratch built a model of the appropriate scale, and
            >say: "Hey, that is the new Rhino Mk2" and use the same stats, it is
            >perfectly fine. (I am not sure, but GW might have copyright on the name
            >Rhino as well. Name it Elephant, then.)
            >
            Hi All! Since we're into discussing the legalities of reproducing someone
            elses stuff, the reality of it as far as my research is concerned is this:
            First of all, someone modifying an existing kit and reproducing it for
            personal use is simply not going to be of interest to a manufacturer. From
            a purely legal standpoint, as soon as you make substantial modifications to
            an item, it is no longer the original item. What "substantial
            modifications" actually means is a matter for interpretation in the courts,
            but no company is going to waste many thousands of dollars in court costs
            and legal fees to prevent an individual from making a few dozen castings for
            personal use. Now selling them is a different matter. Many of the people
            on this list (including me) produce original items for casting and sale. We
            become rabid when someone copies our work and sells it. From a legal
            standpoint, however, we would still have to prove that the original work we
            made is the basis of the copy being sold. In some cases this would be easy,
            but if there are substantial modifications, we would probably be barking up
            the wrong tree. i.e.: I've seen a model train cab casting in a store that
            is a direct copy of an Athearn SD-40 cab, with a minor change (the number
            boards are different). This product is being sold by a major distributor,
            and has been available for years. Even the minor change apparently has
            protected them from being attacked by Athearn. They didn't even bother to
            hide the injection molding marks! Personally, I wouldn't have that much
            nerve, but it does indicate the reality of the situation. From a moral and
            ethical standpoint, my opinion is this: When a modeller purchases my
            product, what they do with it is their business, because it's their
            property. They are free to modify it, cast it, or whatever, as long as they
            don't enter into the business marketplace with a pirated copy of my work. I
            think it's similar to the "legalities" of music CD's. Technically it's
            illegal for you to purchase a CD and copy it onto a cassette tape so you can
            listen to it in your car. It's also apparently illegal for you to re-sell
            it used to another person! The day a record company can tell me what I can
            do with the over-priced CD they sold me (which I consider to be my property)
            is the day I climb a clock tower with an Uzi and start shooting.. ;-) Or
            maybe I'll just start whining.... whatever. The point is, what is "legal"
            and what is "reality" may be two entirely different things. I have seen
            major model magazines publish articles in which a person casts copies of a
            company's product as part of a kit-bashing of another model. Somehow I
            don't think they'd publish that if they thought the legalities were
            questionable. That's my two cents. Let's here other peoples opinions
            please. Any lawyers out there?

            Pat
          • Dan Pikulski
            Pat First let me make this absolutly clear I AM NOT A LAWYER this is just FYI. I have taken two classes in college based on business law, and this information
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 8, 1998
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              Pat
              First let me make this absolutly clear I AM NOT A LAWYER this is just FYI.
              I have taken two classes in college based on business law, and this
              information is comming right out of one of my text books that I kept for
              reference.

              The first thing that needs to be said is this. If in doubt, always seek
              COMPETENT advise. Remember you get what you pay for.

              There are two areas to cover here. First is patents, second, copyrights,
              two totaly different animals.

              A patent is a grant from the federal government(in the US) that conveys and
              secures to an inventor the exclusive right to make, use, and sell an
              Invention for a period of 17 years. Patents for a lesser period are given
              for designs, as opposed to inventions.
              For either patent the applicant must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the
              patent office that the invention, discovery, or design is genuine, novel,
              usefull, and not obvious in the light of the technology at the time.
              A patent infringment may exist even though NOT ALL of the features or parts
              of an invention are copied. (with respect to a patented process, however,
              all steps or their equivalent must be copied for an infringment to exist)

              A copyright is an intangtatute to the author or originator of certain
              literary or artistic productions. Works created after January,1st 1978, are
              automaticaly given statutory copyright protection for the life of the
              Author plus 50 years. Copyrights owned by publishing houses expire 75 years
              from the date of publication or 100 years from the date of creation.
              The copyright Act provides that a copyright owner no longer has to place a
              (C) or(P) on the work to have it protected. Chances are, if somebody
              created it, somebody owns it.

              The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in
              copies or recordings or by any other means, for purposes such as criticism,
              coment, news reporting, teaching (including mutliple copies for classroom
              use), Scholorship, or research, is not an infringment of copyright. In
              determining wheather the use made of a work in any particular case is a
              fair use the factors to be concidered shall include--
              (1) the purpose and character of the use, including weather such use is of
              a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
              (2) The nature of the copyrighted work.

              (3) the amount and substanyiability of the portion used in relation to the
              copyrighted work as a whole;and
              (4)the effect of the use upon the market for or value of the copyrighted
              work.

              Because these guidelines as to what constitutes fair use are very broad,
              the courts determine whether a particular use is fair use or not on a case
              by case basis. (excerpt taken from"West's Business Law" alternate
              edition Pages 147-148, Gaylord A Jentz, Roger LeRoy Miller, and Frank B.
              Cross authors)

              I know this is a rather lenthy "sermon" but, in light of the questions that
              come up on this subject from time to time I thought it would be of use to
              the members. Again I am not a lawyer. If you have questions as to the
              legality of what you are doing, contact somebode who is versed in the law
              regarding the subject. ie: don't get a traffic court lawyer for a copyright
              infringment question
              Dan
              > From: Miracle Castings Inc. <miracle-castings@...>
              > To: casting@onelist.com
              > Subject: [casting] Re: thanks all for being here
              > Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 12:23 PM
              >
              > From: "Miracle Castings Inc." <miracle-castings@...>
              >
              > Tibor wrote:
              > >
              > >If you do that (even for yourself and not for profit) you violate
              copyright
              > >laws. However, if you scratch built a model of the appropriate scale,
              and
              > >say: "Hey, that is the new Rhino Mk2" and use the same stats, it is
              > >perfectly fine. (I am not sure, but GW might have copyright on the name
              > >Rhino as well. Name it Elephant, then.)
              > >
              > Hi All! Since we're into discussing the legalities of reproducing
              someone
              > elses stuff, the reality of it as far as my research is concerned is
              this:
              > First of all, someone modifying an existing kit and reproducing it for
              > personal use is simply not going to be of interest to a manufacturer.
              From
              > a purely legal standpoint, as soon as you make substantial modifications
              to
              > an item, it is no longer the original item. What "substantial
              > modifications" actually means is a matter for interpretation in the
              courts,
              > but no company is going to waste many thousands of dollars in court costs
              > and legal fees to prevent an individual from making a few dozen castings
              for
              > personal use. Now selling them is a different matter. Many of the
              people
              > on this list (including me) produce original items for casting and sale.
              We
              > become rabid when someone copies our work and sells it. From a legal
              > standpoint, however, we would still have to prove that the original work
              we
              > made is the basis of the copy being sold. In some cases this would be
              easy,
              > but if there are substantial modifications, we would probably be barking
              up
              > the wrong tree. i.e.: I've seen a model train cab casting in a store
              that
              > is a direct copy of an Athearn SD-40 cab, with a minor change (the number
              > boards are different). This product is being sold by a major
              distributor,
              > and has been available for years. Even the minor change apparently has
              > protected them from being attacked by Athearn. They didn't even bother
              to
              > hide the injection molding marks! Personally, I wouldn't have that much
              > nerve, but it does indicate the reality of the situation. From a moral
              and
              > ethical standpoint, my opinion is this: When a modeller purchases my
              > product, what they do with it is their business, because it's their
              > property. They are free to modify it, cast it, or whatever, as long as
              they
              > don't enter into the business marketplace with a pirated copy of my work.
              I
              > think it's similar to the "legalities" of music CD's. Technically it's
              > illegal for you to purchase a CD and copy it onto a cassette tape so you
              can
              > listen to it in your car. It's also apparently illegal for you to
              re-sell
              > it used to another person! The day a record company can tell me what I
              can
              > do with the over-priced CD they sold me (which I consider to be my
              property)
              > is the day I climb a clock tower with an Uzi and start shooting.. ;-) Or
              > maybe I'll just start whining.... whatever. The point is, what is
              "legal"
              > and what is "reality" may be two entirely different things. I have seen
              > major model magazines publish articles in which a person casts copies of
              a
              > company's product as part of a kit-bashing of another model. Somehow I
              > don't think they'd publish that if they thought the legalities were
              > questionable. That's my two cents. Let's here other peoples opinions
              > please. Any lawyers out there?
              >
              > Pat
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
              > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
              > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Don't forget to e-mail pat at: miracle-castings@... with photos
              of your castings for the web site. Also, please let him know who your
              suppliers are.
            • Stan Smith
              ... Folks, the answer is simple: If you are making copies for *your own use*, and are *not selling or seeking to make a profit from them*, you are *safe* as
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 8, 1998
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                Dan Pikulski wrote:

                >
                >
                > The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction
                > in
                > copies or recordings or by any other means, for purposes such as
                > criticism,
                > coment, news reporting, teaching (including mutliple copies for
                > classroom
                > use), Scholorship, or research, is not an infringment of copyright.

                Folks, the answer is simple: If you are making copies for *your own
                use*, and are *not selling or seeking to make a profit from them*, you
                are *safe* as far as copyright is concerned. Bottom line: if it's not
                yours, don't sell itï¿œunless you give the original creator a cut :^).

                No company is going to go after an individual who doesn't threaten their
                sales. (except maybe Disney, who is ruthless). But face reality: if the
                company *doesn't know* you are making copies, they *can't* go after you.
              • Rick Blanchard
                Mike, ... The answer is NO. If you didn t generate the original then you are using it for your own gain at their expense. With the two examples you give, why
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 9, 1998
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                  Mike,

                  >Case in point; a line of 1/64 highway trucks that will be later recombined as
                  >different mixes of cabs, frames, and 'boxes/tanks' in
                  >1/160 scale.
                  >
                  >Other example; HO long-OOP Walthers Doodle-bug scanned, resulting in cast
                  >ends, roof, and etched sides; all detailed beyond the quality of the original
                  >masters and output in three scales.
                  >
                  >Am I properly improving and changing the originals to new masters by my
                  >methods and scale changes???

                  The answer is NO. If you didn't generate the original then you are using it
                  for your own gain at their expense. With the two examples you give, why
                  aren't you just starting from your own original??

                  As a related issue, if the truck cabs are specific to Mack or Peterbuilt
                  etc., a letter to them asking for use of their cab design and logo would be
                  wise. Same with the Fruehauf or Trailways trailers. They will want to
                  protect their trademarks. Many times asking first gets permission and not
                  asking gets a lawsuit.

                  Rick

                  Rick Blanchard -=-=-=- rick@...
                  SDSoNS in the SDMRRM, Balboa Park, San Diego
                  'da Trains!' -- http://www.urbaneagle.com/datrains/
                  SLIM RAILS -- http://www.urbaneagle.com/slim/
                • Dan Pikulski
                  Mike I think this would be that part where you get competent legal advise. One would think that would be a significant change in design but, this is where
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 9, 1998
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                    Mike
                    I think this would be that part where you get competent legal advise. One
                    would think that would be a significant "change in design" but, this is
                    where the gray area comes in. So, lets look at this scenario. Chevrolet
                    builds a Corvette. Everybody can see that that is their "unique" design.
                    Matchbox (or whoever owns them this week) builds a 1:64 scale copy of that
                    same Corvette. Is this an infringement? One would think so, accept, I
                    believe that Matchbox pays a royalty to Chevy for the use of the name and
                    likeness. So, in this case there would be no infringement as they have
                    "permission". I personaly don't think that changing the scale will
                    constitute a significant change in that the image is still a copy of
                    somebody elses design. Again I would seek better advise than what I can
                    give you.
                    Dan

                    >
                    > >Folks, the answer is simple: If you are making copies for *your own
                    > >use*, and are *not selling or seeking to make a profit from them*, you
                    > >are *safe* as far as copyright is concerned. Bottom line: if it's not
                    > >yours, don't sell itunless you give the original creator a cut :^).
                    >
                    > And to really complicate the issue.... I'm getting a 3d scanner to create
                    > starter cads that when complete will then be output in one or more
                    different
                    > scales and finished as final patterns with a computer controlled
                    > engraver/miller
                    >
                    > Case in point; a line of 1/64 highway trucks that will be later
                    recombined as
                    > different mixes of cabs, frames, and 'boxes/tanks' in
                    > 1/160 scale.
                    >
                    > Other example; HO long-OOP Walthers Doodle-bug scanned, resulting in cast
                    > ends, roof, and etched sides; all detailed beyond the quality of the
                    original
                    > masters and output in three scales.
                    >
                    > Am I properly improving and changing the originals to new masters by my
                    > methods and scale changes???
                    >
                    > Mike Bauers
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
                    > service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
                    > http://www.onelist.com/advert.html for more information.
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Don't forget to e-mail pat at: miracle-castings@... with photos
                    of your castings for the web site. Also, please let him know who your
                    suppliers are.
                  • Doug McClure
                    ... IMHO by changing scales, that would be sufficient
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 9, 1998
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                      Mike Bauers wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers@...>
                      >
                      > On 09-Dec-98, Stan Smith wrote:
                      > >From: Stan Smith <Stan.D.Smith@...>
                      >
                      > >Dan Pikulski wrote:
                      >
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction
                      > >> in
                      > >> copies or recordings or by any other means, for purposes such as
                      > >> criticism,
                      > >> coment, news reporting, teaching (including mutliple copies for
                      > >> classroom
                      > >> use), Scholorship, or research, is not an infringment of copyright.
                      >
                      > >Folks, the answer is simple: If you are making copies for *your own
                      > >use*, and are *not selling or seeking to make a profit from them*, you
                      > >are *safe* as far as copyright is concerned. Bottom line: if it's not
                      > >yours, don't sell itunless you give the original creator a cut :^).
                      >
                      > And to really complicate the issue.... I'm getting a 3d scanner to create
                      > starter cads that when complete will then be output in one or more different
                      > scales and finished as final patterns with a computer controlled
                      > engraver/miller
                      >
                      > Case in point; a line of 1/64 highway trucks that will be later recombined as
                      > different mixes of cabs, frames, and 'boxes/tanks' in
                      > 1/160 scale.
                      >
                      > Other example; HO long-OOP Walthers Doodle-bug scanned, resulting in cast
                      > ends, roof, and etched sides; all detailed beyond the quality of the original
                      > masters and output in three scales.
                      >
                      > Am I properly improving and changing the originals to new masters by my
                      > methods and scale changes???
                      >
                      > Mike Bauers
                      >


                      IMHO by changing scales, that would be sufficient
                    • Mike Bauers
                      ... I m with your thinking in a lot of ways. I won t just take an XYZ model and simply reproduce it in another scale. I will take something like the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 10, 1998
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                        On 10-Dec-98, Miracle Castings Inc. wrote:
                        >From: "Miracle Castings Inc." <miracle-castings@...>

                        >Hi Mike!

                        >I think there's an important distinction to be made here, between original
                        >artistic creations, and industrial designs. According to copyright laws, an
                        >artist owns the rights to his creation, be it a photo, sculpture or drawing,
                        >the moment he creates it. In this case, I don't think that changing the
                        >scale of the original would be sufficient to avoid a copyright infringement.
                        >If you look at a sculpture, for instance, and put a copy of it beside it,
                        >even in a different scale, it will still be obvious that the sculptor was
                        >responsible for the design. With an industrial design, I think it's a
                        >little different. I'm not sure how rabid manufacturers are about this kind
                        >of stuff, but there's a grey area involved. Sure, it's obvious that the
                        >model locomotive is a "copy" of the original, but where do the "damages"
                        >mentioned in another post come in? In the case of the artist, by selling
                        >your re-scaled copy of his sculpture, you have taken a sale away from him.
                        >In the case of the model locomotive, that's not true. No railway is going to
                        >purchase a model locomotive instead of the real thing. It's not actually a
                        >locomotive, is it? It's a representation of a locomotive, which cannot be
                        >used for the purpose of the original. Most companies would probably ignore
                        >it in this case. I have never heard of a locomotive manufacturer stopping a
                        >model company from producing a model of their product. I'm fairly sure that
                        >most companies don't bother getting permission from manufacturers before
                        >making a model (the small ones, anyway). I would really like to get a
                        >definitive answer to this question though.....

                        >Pat

                        >Mike wrote:
                        >>And to really complicate the issue.... I'm getting a 3d scanner to create
                        >>starter cads that when complete will then be output in one or more
                        >different
                        >>scales and finished as final patterns with a computer controlled
                        >>engraver/miller
                        >>
                        >>Case in point; a line of 1/64 highway trucks that will be later recombined
                        >as
                        >>different mixes of cabs, frames, and 'boxes/tanks' in
                        >>1/160 scale.
                        >>
                        >>Other example; HO long-OOP Walthers Doodle-bug scanned, resulting in cast
                        >>ends, roof, and etched sides; all detailed beyond the quality of the
                        >original
                        >>masters and output in three scales.

                        I'm with your thinking in a lot of ways.

                        I won't just take an XYZ model and simply reproduce it in another scale. I
                        will take something like the Varney/Bowser Aerotrain, scan it, and then with
                        both the cad and the new raw-master, detail it to conform to the actual
                        as-built units from the preserved units, photos and drawings. That means
                        correcting the original scan in over fifty details and assemblies.

                        Similarly with the 1940-1990 highway trucks. Scan the cabs and other major
                        assemblies and use photos of actual units to make final masters unlike the
                        rather bland original. Their generic boxtruck becomes a specific home oil
                        delivery tank truck.

                        Where it gets ethically tricky is the matter of autos. A major problem in
                        some scales are the lack of accurate autos. The licencing is a major cause
                        of the shortage. It may be permisable to make a GM four door coupe from an
                        original police car model by civilianising the reworked new-master. But it
                        certainly is asking for major problems by packaging the product as a 1998
                        Buick Specific model. This is why Kibri has great looking European Specific
                        autos in n-scale yet there are almost no available American autos.

                        Would a 'Late 90's Detroit 4-door' pose the same problems?

                        I will be scanning to get a cad-sketch to finish.

                        Yet if you wanted to corner the n-scale Tucker market. What long out of
                        production auto maker would be safe?

                        Now don't just apply this to me. I've seen used 3-d scanners for about $50
                        and low priced computerised hobby mills at times. As the prices drop as
                        they have for flat-bed scanners, you will see many people realising that
                        a solution to unavailable models is the mix of that technology and the
                        massive numbers of starter-patterns on the toy store shelves......

                        Heck, engrave a brass block in reverse with off the shelf ****** hardware
                        and software and you have a low cost injection die that can be remade as
                        the old one wears out.

                        How can this future problem best be handled??

                        What about the fellow that gets that $50 3d scanner and a $200 used
                        computerised UniMat mill and then borrows a friends brass locomotives
                        one at a time??

                        Mike Bauers
                      • Mike Bauers
                        ... It is a problem in the plastic model field. It s why there are no n-scale late model American autos. It s why there are almost no Boeing aircraft models. A
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 10, 1998
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                          On 11-Dec-98, Miracle Castings Inc. wrote:
                          >From: "Miracle Castings Inc." <miracle-castings@...>




                          >Hi Greg! For interest's sake, could you expand on what was involved in
                          >obtaining permissions / licenses with the OEM's you mention in your message?
                          >I'd be very interested, and I'm sure there are others who would be as well.
                          >So far I haven't run across this problem, because our current and future
                          >products are all "historical" in nature, i.e. the companies are defunct.
                          >But it may come around some day, and I've always wondered if companies like
                          >Athearn, Atlas, etc. have to pay GM to produce a model of one of their
                          >locomotives. Thanks,

                          It is a problem in the plastic model field. It's why there are no n-scale
                          late model American autos. It's why there are almost no Boeing aircraft
                          models.

                          A corvette is always recognised as a corvette. I see there are no Lincoln
                          Towncar models in scale but there are very similar stretched limos based on
                          the Lincoln Towncar.

                          Next time you are near a rack of toy cars that are obviously scale reductions
                          and use a car model's name..... pick the package up and read the lengthy
                          licenses on the back of the package. You don't see the same on un-named toy
                          model cars.

                          A corvette is always a covette, but what the heck is a GM/Ford looking late
                          model four door miniature???

                          Potentially safe if generic?

                          Mike Bauers
                        • Cdmodels@xxx.xxx
                          Correct, a corvette in any scale is still a corvette, We deal with several license agreement with several OEM (Original Equipment Manufactures). I highly
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 10, 1998
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                            Correct, a corvette in any scale is still a corvette, We deal with several
                            license agreement with several OEM (Original Equipment Manufactures). I
                            highly recommend that if your thinking of re-poping someone elses design You
                            consult a lawyer. We deal with people thinking our product is such a good
                            idea they'll cut out the middle man (US) and do it themself. Well our
                            corporate attorny loves to deal we this situtation, and he does. Thats why
                            he's an attorny and I design models. Seriously contact a patent attorny for
                            more advice.


                            Thanks

                            Greg

                            Sorry I went on a rant but it's hard enough to compete with everybody else in
                            the market place let alone yourself.
                          • Miracle Castings Inc.
                            Hi Mike! I think there s an important distinction to be made here, between original artistic creations, and industrial designs. According to copyright laws,
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 10, 1998
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                              Hi Mike!

                              I think there's an important distinction to be made here, between original
                              artistic creations, and industrial designs. According to copyright laws, an
                              artist owns the rights to his creation, be it a photo, sculpture or drawing,
                              the moment he creates it. In this case, I don't think that changing the
                              scale of the original would be sufficient to avoid a copyright infringement.
                              If you look at a sculpture, for instance, and put a copy of it beside it,
                              even in a different scale, it will still be obvious that the sculptor was
                              responsible for the design. With an industrial design, I think it's a
                              little different. I'm not sure how rabid manufacturers are about this kind
                              of stuff, but there's a grey area involved. Sure, it's obvious that the
                              model locomotive is a "copy" of the original, but where do the "damages"
                              mentioned in another post come in? In the case of the artist, by selling
                              your re-scaled copy of his sculpture, you have taken a sale away from him.
                              In the case of the model locomotive, that's not true. No railway is going to
                              purchase a model locomotive instead of the real thing. It's not actually a
                              locomotive, is it? It's a representation of a locomotive, which cannot be
                              used for the purpose of the original. Most companies would probably ignore
                              it in this case. I have never heard of a locomotive manufacturer stopping a
                              model company from producing a model of their product. I'm fairly sure that
                              most companies don't bother getting permission from manufacturers before
                              making a model (the small ones, anyway). I would really like to get a
                              definitive answer to this question though.....

                              Pat

                              Mike wrote:
                              >
                              >On 09-Dec-98, Stan Smith wrote:
                              >>From: Stan Smith <Stan.D.Smith@...>
                              >
                              >>Dan Pikulski wrote:
                              >
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>> The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction
                              >>> in
                              >>> copies or recordings or by any other means, for purposes such as
                              >>> criticism,
                              >>> coment, news reporting, teaching (including mutliple copies for
                              >>> classroom
                              >>> use), Scholorship, or research, is not an infringment of copyright.
                              >
                              >>Folks, the answer is simple: If you are making copies for *your own
                              >>use*, and are *not selling or seeking to make a profit from them*, you
                              >>are *safe* as far as copyright is concerned. Bottom line: if it's not
                              >>yours, don't sell itunless you give the original creator a cut :^).
                              >
                              >And to really complicate the issue.... I'm getting a 3d scanner to create
                              >starter cads that when complete will then be output in one or more
                              different
                              >scales and finished as final patterns with a computer controlled
                              >engraver/miller
                              >
                              >Case in point; a line of 1/64 highway trucks that will be later recombined
                              as
                              >different mixes of cabs, frames, and 'boxes/tanks' in
                              >1/160 scale.
                              >
                              >Other example; HO long-OOP Walthers Doodle-bug scanned, resulting in cast
                              >ends, roof, and etched sides; all detailed beyond the quality of the
                              original
                              >masters and output in three scales.
                              >
                              >Am I properly improving and changing the originals to new masters by my
                              >methods and scale changes???
                              >
                              >Mike Bauers
                              >
                              >
                              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
                              >service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
                              >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html for more information.
                              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >Don't forget to e-mail pat at: miracle-castings@... with photos of
                              your castings for the web site. Also, please let him know who your suppliers
                              are.
                              >
                            • Miracle Castings Inc.
                              Hi Greg! For interest s sake, could you expand on what was involved in obtaining permissions / licenses with the OEM s you mention in your message? I d be
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 10, 1998
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                                Hi Greg! For interest's sake, could you expand on what was involved in
                                obtaining permissions / licenses with the OEM's you mention in your message?
                                I'd be very interested, and I'm sure there are others who would be as well.
                                So far I haven't run across this problem, because our current and future
                                products are all "historical" in nature, i.e. the companies are defunct.
                                But it may come around some day, and I've always wondered if companies like
                                Athearn, Atlas, etc. have to pay GM to produce a model of one of their
                                locomotives. Thanks,

                                Pat
                                >
                                >Correct, a corvette in any scale is still a corvette, We deal with several
                                >license agreement with several OEM (Original Equipment Manufactures). I
                                >highly recommend that if your thinking of re-poping someone elses design
                                You
                                >consult a lawyer. We deal with people thinking our product is such a good
                                >idea they'll cut out the middle man (US) and do it themself. Well our
                                >corporate attorny loves to deal we this situtation, and he does. Thats why
                                >he's an attorny and I design models. Seriously contact a patent attorny for
                                >more advice.
                                >
                                >
                                >Thanks
                                >
                                >Greg
                                >
                                >Sorry I went on a rant but it's hard enough to compete with everybody else
                                in
                                >the market place let alone yourself.
                                >
                                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
                                >service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
                                >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html for more information.
                                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >Don't forget to e-mail pat at: miracle-castings@... with photos of
                                your castings for the web site. Also, please let him know who your suppliers
                                are.
                                >
                              • Mike Bauers
                                ... with ... Yup, that is a dramatic exageration. Yet I can direct you to a new one that sells for $700-$800 and has a working zone of 4x6x1.7. It s actually
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 11, 1998
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                                  On 11-Dec-98, VRBass wrote:
                                  >From: "VRBass" <vrbass@...>

                                  >> What about the fellow that gets that $50 3d scanner and a $200 used
                                  >> computerised UniMat mill and then borrows a friends brass locomotives
                                  >> one at a time??

                                  >Mike,

                                  >I will gladly pay you a $250 finder's fee as soon as I take delivery of that
                                  >$200
                                  >computerised Unimat mill. In fact, I'll take all you find at that price,
                                  with
                                  >fee
                                  >for each. Given that these things cost something like $2000 new, I'd be
                                  >really surprised to see any at that price, however.

                                  Yup, that is a dramatic exageration. Yet I can direct you to a new one that
                                  sells for $700-$800 and has a working zone of 4x6x1.7. It's actually an
                                  engraver that works in material not as dense as a steel. But will work with
                                  brass, aluminum, polyurethanes, and tooling waxes.

                                  I intend to use it to bank-roll my way to the more capable and larger, truely
                                  3d engraver/mills that are in the 3k range.

                                  I've seen the metal/plastic Unimat-3 for about $100 in swaps and at American
                                  Science and Surplus. There are some add-on computerising kits for smaller
                                  mills of that size and one may be available for even these very cheap mills.

                                  It's coming down to that sort of low price range if it isn't there already.

                                  Mike Bauers
                                • Mike Bauers
                                  ... Think a little more realisticly. We know of the built-in anti-copy components of modern currency. Where is the same in a manufactured item? While you are
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 11, 1998
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                                    On 12-Dec-98, Dan Pikulski wrote:
                                    >From: "Dan Pikulski" <danpik@...>



                                    >>
                                    >> What about the fellow that gets that $50 3d scanner and a $200 used
                                    >> computerised UniMat mill and then borrows a friends brass locomotives
                                    >> one at a time??
                                    >>
                                    >> Mike Bauers
                                    >>
                                    >What about the 10 year old kid who, with an ordinary off the shelf graphics
                                    >program, copied the supposedly "impossible" to counterfeit new $100 dollar
                                    >bill, so well that it fooled even some of the most astute federal
                                    >agents.(true story) And he did it only days after it was released.

                                    Think a little more realisticly. We know of the built-in anti-copy components
                                    of modern currency. Where is the same in a manufactured item?

                                    While you are thinking about that, ponder my question again. This will be an
                                    increasing problem in the not too distant future.

                                    That $50 3d scanner was over a grand just a few years ago. The mills are also
                                    dropping to a very similar price range.

                                    Now without involved agencies like the Federal Treasury Department, what needs
                                    to be in place to prevent another Paige Co. from copying the product line of
                                    SS Ltd?

                                    Or even less visible, a line of 'Fred's copies' of your works that regularly
                                    is sold at only Fred's local area swap meets, two thousand miles away from
                                    your shop......

                                    Mike Bauers
                                  • VRBass
                                    ... Mike, I will gladly pay you a $250 finder s fee as soon as I take delivery of that $200 computerised Unimat mill. In fact, I ll take all you find at that
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 11, 1998
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                                      > What about the fellow that gets that $50 3d scanner and a $200 used
                                      > computerised UniMat mill and then borrows a friends brass locomotives
                                      > one at a time??

                                      Mike,

                                      I will gladly pay you a $250 finder's fee as soon as I take delivery of that $200
                                      computerised Unimat mill. In fact, I'll take all you find at that price, with fee
                                      for each. Given that these things cost something like $2000 new, I'd be
                                      really surprised to see any at that price, however.


                                      regards,
                                      -vance-

                                      Vance Bass
                                      Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
                                      Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
                                    • Dan Pikulski
                                      ... What about the 10 year old kid who, with an ordinary off the shelf graphics program, copied the supposedly impossible to counterfeit new $100 dollar
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 11, 1998
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        >
                                        > What about the fellow that gets that $50 3d scanner and a $200 used
                                        > computerised UniMat mill and then borrows a friends brass locomotives
                                        > one at a time??
                                        >
                                        > Mike Bauers
                                        >
                                        What about the 10 year old kid who, with an ordinary off the shelf graphics
                                        program, copied the supposedly "impossible" to counterfeit new $100 dollar
                                        bill, so well that it fooled even some of the most astute federal
                                        agents.(true story) And he did it only days after it was released.
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                        > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
                                        > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        > Don't forget to e-mail pat at: miracle-castings@... with photos
                                        of your castings for the web site. Also, please let him know who your
                                        suppliers are.
                                      • Lane Shutt
                                        ... IIRC the mill costs about $2000 before the computer controll part and you supply the computer. That also does not include tools etc. My club at school
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 11, 1998
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                                          VRBass wrote:
                                          >
                                          > From: "VRBass" <vrbass@...>
                                          >
                                          > > What about the fellow that gets that $50 3d scanner and a $200 used
                                          > > computerised UniMat mill and then borrows a friends brass
                                          > > locomotives one at a time??
                                          >
                                          > Mike,
                                          >
                                          > I will gladly pay you a $250 finder's fee as soon as I take delivery
                                          > of that $200 computerised Unimat mill. In fact, I'll take all you
                                          > find at that price, with fee for each. Given that these things cost
                                          > something like $2000 new, I'd be really surprised to see any at that
                                          > price, however.

                                          IIRC the mill costs about $2000 before the computer controll part
                                          and you supply the computer. That also does not include tools etc.

                                          My club at school looked at purchasing a small mill after the school
                                          machine shop charged $5000 for a job after quoting $1500. They
                                          explained it as "we made some mistakes and had to re do it several
                                          times. That problem/ manager has since been corrected.

                                          --
                                          Lane Shutt <lmshutt@...>
                                        • Lane Shutt
                                          ... Are you saying that the record companys actions would be pointless or that you do not know about using the right tool for the job. obviously there are
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 12, 1998
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                                            "Miracle Castings Inc." wrote:
                                            > The day a record company can tell me what I can do with the
                                            > over-priced CD they sold me (which I consider to be my property)
                                            > is the day I climb a clock tower with an Uzi and start shooting.. ;-)

                                            Are you saying that the record companys actions would be pointless
                                            or that you do not know about using the right tool for the job.

                                            obviously there are several people here interested in making parts
                                            for Games Workshop models. If they are interested I could dig up
                                            a statement from GW's intelectual property department on making copies
                                            and their email address. I know at least one other person has seen
                                            this message but others may not have.

                                            --
                                            Lane Shutt <lmshutt@...>
                                            /
                                          • Doug McClure
                                            ... I know this is off topic IMHO if they made the mistake(s) then they should eat the costs to correct it, not you
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 13, 1998
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                                              Lane Shutt wrote:


                                              >
                                              > My club at school looked at purchasing a small mill after the school
                                              > machine shop charged $5000 for a job after quoting $1500. They
                                              > explained it as "we made some mistakes and had to re do it several
                                              > times. That problem/ manager has since been corrected.


                                              I know this is off topic IMHO if they made the mistake(s) then they
                                              should eat the costs to correct it, not you
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