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Re: [carfree_cities] Fuel from coal

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  • Todd Edelman
    ... YES, but we dont have to use only that. There is also huge amount of internalisation of costs for road transport which needs to happen, involving things
    Message 1 of 8 , May 14, 2006
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      Richard Risemberg wrote:

      > We pretty much knew it would come to this. More than ever, it's
      > important to market carfreedom on its personal human benefits.

      YES, but we dont have to use only that. There is also huge amount of
      internalisation of costs for road transport which needs to happen,
      involving things besides air emissions.

      Also, assuming this Synfuel thing can get to the point of having a
      Coal-to-Liquid fuel facility operating in a "normal" fashion, it will be
      many, many, many years before enough of them are built to replace the
      current petroleum refining system -- that is to say that it wont fill the
      growing vacuum of post-peak oil right away. AND there will be I think a
      fair amount of pressure to keep it "clean" (relatively speaking) which
      means lots of "delays", too. There will also be lengthy legal battles
      about re-opening coal mines and especially starting new ones.

      So... as I have mentioned before... I think there will be a problem in 5
      to 10 years when petroleum-based fuel will be too expensive for too many
      people to use it for their cars (and airplanes).... and not enough public
      transport or cycling or non-petrofuelled-transport options
      (densification/pedestrian-oriented development, working at home, virtual
      conferencing) to come close to replacing automobiles (and airplanes)... so
      the question is: "How much chaos can we handle?". We need to mimimize
      future chaos by investing in much more PT, NMT and transport replacement
      now.

      ------------------------------------------------------

      Todd Edelman
      International Coordinator
      On the Train Towards the Future!

      Green Idea Factory
      Laubova 5
      CZ-13000 Praha 3

      ++420 605 915 970

      edelman@...
      http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

      Green Idea Factory,
      a member of World Carfree Network
    • Sean Brooks
      It s amazing how fast humans can adapt to change when they have to. I preface everything by mentioning that I wholeheartedly agree with Joel, coal is the worst
      Message 2 of 8 , May 14, 2006
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        It's amazing how fast humans can adapt to change when they have to.

        I preface everything by mentioning that I wholeheartedly agree with Joel,
        coal is the worst form of energy available to us. I'd rather we didn't use
        it. I'm almost positive we will, if only because the US has a lot of it.

        Over the course of two years in the early 40's, a country that lost their
        supply of oil converted largely to liquid fuel from coal via the
        Fischer-Tropsh process. They did this while being bombed nightly.
        Fortunately for the rest of us, this experience wasn't successful for the
        Nazis.

        Over the course of 15 years, the world built several hundred nuclear plants,
        at a time when coal was incredibly cheap.

        How fast did the telegraph spread around the world?

        How fast did semiconductors 'take over the world'?

        Sean


        >From: "Todd Edelman" <edelman@...>
        >Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
        >To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Fuel from coal
        >Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:07:39 +0200 (CEST)
        >
        >Richard Risemberg wrote:
        >
        > > We pretty much knew it would come to this. More than ever, it's
        > > important to market carfreedom on its personal human benefits.
        >
        >YES, but we dont have to use only that. There is also huge amount of
        >internalisation of costs for road transport which needs to happen,
        >involving things besides air emissions.
        >
        >Also, assuming this Synfuel thing can get to the point of having a
        >Coal-to-Liquid fuel facility operating in a "normal" fashion, it will be
        >many, many, many years before enough of them are built to replace the
        >current petroleum refining system -- that is to say that it wont fill the
        >growing vacuum of post-peak oil right away. AND there will be I think a
        >fair amount of pressure to keep it "clean" (relatively speaking) which
        >means lots of "delays", too. There will also be lengthy legal battles
        >about re-opening coal mines and especially starting new ones.
        >
        >So... as I have mentioned before... I think there will be a problem in 5
        >to 10 years when petroleum-based fuel will be too expensive for too many
        >people to use it for their cars (and airplanes).... and not enough public
        >transport or cycling or non-petrofuelled-transport options
        >(densification/pedestrian-oriented development, working at home, virtual
        >conferencing) to come close to replacing automobiles (and airplanes)... so
        >the question is: "How much chaos can we handle?". We need to mimimize
        >future chaos by investing in much more PT, NMT and transport replacement
        >now.
        >
        >------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >Todd Edelman
        >International Coordinator
        >On the Train Towards the Future!
        >
        >Green Idea Factory
        >Laubova 5
        >CZ-13000 Praha 3
        >
        >++420 605 915 970
        >
        >edelman@...
        >http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain
        >
        >Green Idea Factory,
        >a member of World Carfree Network
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Richard Risemberg
        ... True, but bear in mind that coal gasification system were routine in most cities before natural gas became prevalent. Natural gas is called that to
        Message 3 of 8 , May 14, 2006
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          On May 14, 2006, at 6:07 AM, Todd Edelman wrote:

          > Richard Risemberg wrote:
          >
          >> We pretty much knew it would come to this. More than ever, it's
          >> important to market carfreedom on its personal human benefits.
          >
          > YES, but we dont have to use only that. There is also huge amount of
          > internalisation of costs for road transport which needs to happen,
          > involving things besides air emissions.
          >
          > Also, assuming this Synfuel thing can get to the point of having a
          > Coal-to-Liquid fuel facility operating in a "normal" fashion, it
          > will be
          > many, many, many years before enough of them are built to replace the
          > current petroleum refining system -
          True, but bear in mind that coal gasification system were routine in
          most cities before "natural gas" became prevalent. Natural gas is
          called that to distinguish it from the previous coal gas, so this
          particular synthesizing technology has a history stretching back
          before the oil era.

          Internalizing costs is hugely important--and the "full-cost
          accounting" folks are natural allies for us--but unless we can sell
          civil cities, carfree cities, on their personal benefits, most people
          will grumble about putting money into alternatives no matter how much
          fuel costs them personally.

          They'll certainly ask for more money to be put into fuel tech than
          into metros and trams in the next fewf years, I'll bet.

          Rick
        • Todd Edelman
          ... I REALIZE that - and on the way up of the oil era Hitler had the need to make synthetic fuels, too - BUT the difference now is we have you and me, Joel,
          Message 4 of 8 , May 14, 2006
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            >> Richard Risemberg wrote:
            >>
            > True, but bear in mind that coal gasification system were routine in
            > most cities before "natural gas" became prevalent. Natural gas is
            > called that to distinguish it from the previous coal gas, so this
            > particular synthesizing technology has a history stretching back
            > before the oil era.

            I REALIZE that - and on the "way up" of the oil era Hitler had the need to
            make synthetic fuels, too - BUT the difference now is we have you and me,
            Joel, and several billion other people to make a point about emissions
            which wasnt made "pre-oil".

            ----


            >
            > Internalizing costs is hugely important--and the "full-cost
            > accounting" folks are natural allies for us--but unless we can sell
            > civil cities, carfree cities, on their personal benefits, most people
            > will grumble about putting money into alternatives no matter how much
            > fuel costs them personally.

            WELL, I am really getting into this "raise fuel taxes, lower income taxes"
            thing. It should not be oversimplified but in a way it will seems like
            magic for many people who dont drive at all and perhaps even so for people
            who do, as their overall tax rate stays the same. I also want to stop
            calling it "alternative" but instead, Conservative, Democratic and
            Christian, to name a few examples. Arent those terms accurate?
            >
            > They'll certainly ask for more money to be put into fuel tech than
            > into metros and trams in the next fewf years, I'll bet.

            THE good research and pilot projects can be done with public transport,
            too. Ideally, the efficiency/energy return and environmental acceptability
            of the "new" fuels will be decent for PT but... sorry!... not quite good
            enough for individually operated cars. I realise this might be quite naive
            but I am not surrendering just yet.

            T

            ------------------------------------------------------

            Todd Edelman
            International Coordinator
            On the Train Towards the Future!

            Green Idea Factory
            Laubova 5
            CZ-13000 Praha 3

            ++420 605 915 970

            edelman@...
            http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

            Green Idea Factory,
            a member of World Carfree Network
          • Todd Edelman
            ... YES ... YES ... WELL, this synfuel was beaten by oil + carbo-energy (Soviet and other soldiers), hydroelectric power (US airplanes) and finally a crude
            Message 5 of 8 , May 14, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              > It's amazing how fast humans can adapt to change when they have to.
              YES

              > I preface everything by mentioning that I wholeheartedly agree with Joel,
              > coal is the worst form of energy available to us. I'd rather we didn't
              > use
              > it. I'm almost positive we will, if only because the US has a lot of it.
              YES

              > Over the course of two years in the early 40's, a country that lost their
              > supply of oil converted largely to liquid fuel from coal via the
              > Fischer-Tropsh process. They did this while being bombed nightly.
              > Fortunately for the rest of us, this experience wasn't successful for the
              > Nazis.

              WELL, this synfuel was beaten by oil + carbo-energy (Soviet and other
              soldiers), hydroelectric power (US airplanes) and finally a crude version
              of nuclear power.

              ---
              >
              > Over the course of 15 years, the world built several hundred nuclear
              > plants,
              > at a time when coal was incredibly cheap.
              >
              > How fast did the telegraph spread around the world?
              >
              > How fast did semiconductors 'take over the world'?

              KEEP in mind that VERY many people in the world dont have communications
              or computer equipment.

              I see another disadvantage to centralised coal-based fuel: Just like many
              other fuels, it wont be available to people in the developing world.

              People in oil-rich Nigeria are already putting holes into pipelines and
              "stealing" fuel, at extreme risk to their own lives.

              Something like half the people in the world still use solid fuel for
              cooking. Inside homes this is dangerous.

              Fuel for public transport or cars etc is not even an issue.

              I wonder how many micro biogas reactors or solar panels you can buy for
              the price of one jet engine?

              T


              >
              > Sean
              >
              >
              >>From: "Todd Edelman" <edelman@...>
              >>Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
              >>To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
              >>Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Fuel from coal
              >>Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:07:39 +0200 (CEST)
              >>
              >>Richard Risemberg wrote:
              >>
              >> > We pretty much knew it would come to this. More than ever, it's
              >> > important to market carfreedom on its personal human benefits.
              >>
              >>YES, but we dont have to use only that. There is also huge amount of
              >>internalisation of costs for road transport which needs to happen,
              >>involving things besides air emissions.
              >>
              >>Also, assuming this Synfuel thing can get to the point of having a
              >>Coal-to-Liquid fuel facility operating in a "normal" fashion, it will be
              >>many, many, many years before enough of them are built to replace the
              >>current petroleum refining system -- that is to say that it wont fill the
              >>growing vacuum of post-peak oil right away. AND there will be I think a
              >>fair amount of pressure to keep it "clean" (relatively speaking) which
              >>means lots of "delays", too. There will also be lengthy legal battles
              >>about re-opening coal mines and especially starting new ones.
              >>
              >>So... as I have mentioned before... I think there will be a problem in 5
              >>to 10 years when petroleum-based fuel will be too expensive for too many
              >>people to use it for their cars (and airplanes).... and not enough public
              >>transport or cycling or non-petrofuelled-transport options
              >>(densification/pedestrian-oriented development, working at home, virtual
              >>conferencing) to come close to replacing automobiles (and airplanes)...
              >> so
              >>the question is: "How much chaos can we handle?". We need to mimimize
              >>future chaos by investing in much more PT, NMT and transport replacement
              >>now.
              >>
              >>------------------------------------------------------
              >>
              >>Todd Edelman
              >>International Coordinator
              >>On the Train Towards the Future!
              >>
              >>Green Idea Factory
              >>Laubova 5
              >>CZ-13000 Praha 3
              >>
              >>++420 605 915 970
              >>
              >>edelman@...
              >>http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain
              >>
              >>Green Idea Factory,
              >>a member of World Carfree Network
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              ------------------------------------------------------

              Todd Edelman
              International Coordinator
              On the Train Towards the Future!

              Green Idea Factory
              Laubova 5
              CZ-13000 Praha 3

              ++420 605 915 970

              edelman@...
              http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

              Green Idea Factory,
              a member of World Carfree Network
            • Gregorio Villacorta Alegria
              Hallo Tod I have read your messages about Coal , chaos in the future and engine jet costs to use in micro gas. I would like to know How are oriented the
              Message 6 of 8 , May 14, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Hallo Tod

                I have read your messages about Coal , chaos in the future and engine jet costs to use in micro gas.

                I would like to know

                How are oriented the transport ? to what kind of fuel or energy ?

                Gas ? , solar power ?

                Our actual systems of transport in developing countries are based in petroleum and gas , but how time will be able this fuel ?

                there are some pronostics ?

                Sorry my bad english.

                I am from Peru.

                Regards

                Gregorio


                Todd Edelman <edelman@...> escribió:
                > It's amazing how fast humans can adapt to change when they have to.
                YES

                > I preface everything by mentioning that I wholeheartedly agree with Joel,
                > coal is the worst form of energy available to us. I'd rather we didn't
                > use
                > it. I'm almost positive we will, if only because the US has a lot of it.
                YES

                > Over the course of two years in the early 40's, a country that lost their
                > supply of oil converted largely to liquid fuel from coal via the
                > Fischer-Tropsh process. They did this while being bombed nightly.
                > Fortunately for the rest of us, this experience wasn't successful for the
                > Nazis.

                WELL, this synfuel was beaten by oil + carbo-energy (Soviet and other
                soldiers), hydroelectric power (US airplanes) and finally a crude version
                of nuclear power.

                ---
                >
                > Over the course of 15 years, the world built several hundred nuclear
                > plants,
                > at a time when coal was incredibly cheap.
                >
                > How fast did the telegraph spread around the world?
                >
                > How fast did semiconductors 'take over the world'?

                KEEP in mind that VERY many people in the world dont have communications
                or computer equipment.

                I see another disadvantage to centralised coal-based fuel: Just like many
                other fuels, it wont be available to people in the developing world.

                People in oil-rich Nigeria are already putting holes into pipelines and
                "stealing" fuel, at extreme risk to their own lives.

                Something like half the people in the world still use solid fuel for
                cooking. Inside homes this is dangerous.

                Fuel for public transport or cars etc is not even an issue.

                I wonder how many micro biogas reactors or solar panels you can buy for
                the price of one jet engine?

                T


                >
                > Sean
                >
                >
                >>From: "Todd Edelman"
                >>Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                >>To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                >>Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Fuel from coal
                >>Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:07:39 +0200 (CEST)
                >>
                >>Richard Risemberg wrote:
                >>
                >> > We pretty much knew it would come to this. More than ever, it's
                >> > important to market carfreedom on its personal human benefits.
                >>
                >>YES, but we dont have to use only that. There is also huge amount of
                >>internalisation of costs for road transport which needs to happen,
                >>involving things besides air emissions.
                >>
                >>Also, assuming this Synfuel thing can get to the point of having a
                >>Coal-to-Liquid fuel facility operating in a "normal" fashion, it will be
                >>many, many, many years before enough of them are built to replace the
                >>current petroleum refining system -- that is to say that it wont fill the
                >>growing vacuum of post-peak oil right away. AND there will be I think a
                >>fair amount of pressure to keep it "clean" (relatively speaking) which
                >>means lots of "delays", too. There will also be lengthy legal battles
                >>about re-opening coal mines and especially starting new ones.
                >>
                >>So... as I have mentioned before... I think there will be a problem in 5
                >>to 10 years when petroleum-based fuel will be too expensive for too many
                >>people to use it for their cars (and airplanes).... and not enough public
                >>transport or cycling or non-petrofuelled-transport options
                >>(densification/pedestrian-oriented development, working at home, virtual
                >>conferencing) to come close to replacing automobiles (and airplanes)...
                >> so
                >>the question is: "How much chaos can we handle?". We need to mimimize
                >>future chaos by investing in much more PT, NMT and transport replacement
                >>now.
                >>
                >>------------------------------------------------------
                >>
                >>Todd Edelman
                >>International Coordinator
                >>On the Train Towards the Future!
                >>
                >>Green Idea Factory
                >>Laubova 5
                >>CZ-13000 Praha 3
                >>
                >>++420 605 915 970
                >>
                >>edelman@...
                >>http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain
                >>
                >>Green Idea Factory,
                >>a member of World Carfree Network
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                ------------------------------------------------------

                Todd Edelman
                International Coordinator
                On the Train Towards the Future!

                Green Idea Factory
                Laubova 5
                CZ-13000 Praha 3

                ++420 605 915 970

                edelman@...
                http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                Green Idea Factory,
                a member of World Carfree Network




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