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Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Efficiency and the automobile

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  • J.H. Crawford
    ... Just put the armored cash-carriers on metro-freight (then the banks must be located on the central boulevard, but that s no serious problem). ... No idea.
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 5, 2006
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      >As for armored cash deliveries, there's metro-freight, and
      >seeing that armored
      >trucks typically aren't robbed while waiting a few minutes at a red
      >light or in heavy traffic, I
      >doubt that an [electric] armored truck would be vulnerable moving down
      >a carfree street at
      >3 mph.

      Just put the armored cash-carriers on metro-freight
      (then the banks must be located on the central boulevard,
      but that's no serious problem).

      >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)

      No idea. Anyone?

      >What would the restrictions be on walk-behind electric trucks in a
      >carfree city? I'm
      >primarily thinking of electric pallet trucks for moving extremely
      >shipping pallets at 3 mph.

      It would be nearly impossible to get along without
      these, or something very similar.



      ----- ### -----
      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
    • Brett Breitwieser
      ... Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 5, 2006
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        >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)

        Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is
        information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
        coin.
        Or the neo-ludites can barter.

        Brett
      • Matt Hohmeister
        Here s an interesting policy idea for a carfree city: allow electric vehicles on the condition that they are being escorted by a pedestrian. This is seen today
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 5, 2006
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          Here's an interesting policy idea for a carfree city: allow electric vehicles on the condition that
          they are being escorted by a pedestrian. This is seen today in large home-improvement
          stores, where an employee walks in front of an oncoming forklift to clear the area. I can't
          imagine a escorted forklift moving 3 mph being a danger. This would also allow for walk-
          behind trucks carrying heavy or large shipments.

          Since the streets in a carfree city would be wider than the sidewalks we're used to, we'd
          actually be more flexible with deliveries. If a family is moving and a 20*8 foot trailer is
          parked on the edge 30' wide street for a whole day, there's still plenty of space for the
          pedestrian and bicycle traffic. Ideally, this should be arranged in advance with whatever
          authority is in charge of the streets, so they can cone-off an area in advance.

          > >What would the restrictions be on walk-behind electric trucks in a
          > >carfree city? I'm
          > >primarily thinking of electric pallet trucks for moving extremely
          > >shipping pallets at 3 mph.
          >
          > It would be nearly impossible to get along without
          > these, or something very similar.
        • Matt Hohmeister
          I have to give that a big, fat no . I m huge on privacy and love how cash lets me buy products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 6, 2006
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            I have to give that a big, fat "no". I'm huge on privacy and love how cash lets me buy
            products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic example is that a
            relative gives you money to buy them cigarettes, you buy them with your debit card, and
            you soon get letters stating that your health insurance and home fire insurance rates are
            going up. I don't smoke and hate smoking, but you get the point.

            Among other reasons, that's one of my reasons to appreciate rail transportation:
            anonymity. My wife and I recently went to southern NJ: our Delta flight from Tallahassee to
            Philadelphia required photo ID and tickets in our names. But the NJT bus route winding
            through the small towns in south Jersey? I bought those tickets with cash and no ID. Thus,
            there exists no record that we ever made that trip--and that's the way I want it.

            When I was in Madrid in 1999, I bought a round-trip high-speed rail ticket to Sevilla with
            cash. Again, no record that I ever made that trip--just record that the trip was made by
            someone. Haven't been to Europe since 9/11, though, so I'm not sure if they require ID for
            inter-city today.

            Joel's reference carfree city would have no metro fare gates--it would be a public service,
            just like streets and streetlights. That also means that there will exist no record of your
            travel through a carfree city. Granted, the metro authority will probably track usage
            numbers to fine-tune service intervals and train lengths, but that's not a privacy concern.

            In an auto-centric city, you drive around with an ID number attached to your rear end
            (license plate). Anyone who sees your car can write down the license plate number and
            find out a good bit about you. Carfree city? Forget it--you'd have to take pictures and
            match up the faces with ID cards. A bit harder than looking up license plate numbers,
            especially since electronic facial recognition seems to be far from mature.

            I don't like being tracked. Rant over. :-)

            > >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)
            >
            > Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is
            > information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
            > coin.
            > Or the neo-ludites can barter.
          • J.H. Crawford
            Hi Matt, Good post. Can you shorten your lines by about 40% so the wrap nicely? Around 80 characters? Thanks, Joel ... J.H. Crawford
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 7, 2006
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              Hi Matt,

              Good post. Can you shorten your lines by about 40% so the wrap nicely?
              Around 80 characters?

              Thanks,

              Joel


              >I have to give that a big, fat "no". I'm huge on privacy and love how
              >cash lets me buy
              >products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic
              >example is that a
              >relative gives you money to buy them cigarettes, you buy them with
              >your debit card, and
              >you soon get letters stating that your health insurance and home fire
              >insurance rates are
              >going up. I don't smoke and hate smoking, but you get the point.
              >
              >Among other reasons, that's one of my reasons to appreciate rail
              >transportation:
              >anonymity. My wife and I recently went to southern NJ: our Delta
              >flight from Tallahassee to
              >Philadelphia required photo ID and tickets in our names. But the NJT
              >bus route winding
              >through the small towns in south Jersey? I bought those tickets with
              >cash and no ID. Thus,
              >there exists no record that we ever made that trip--and that's the way
              >I want it.
              >
              >When I was in Madrid in 1999, I bought a round-trip high-speed rail
              >ticket to Sevilla with
              >cash. Again, no record that I ever made that trip--just record that
              >the trip was made by
              >someone. Haven't been to Europe since 9/11, though, so I'm not sure if
              >they require ID for
              >inter-city today.
              >
              >Joel's reference carfree city would have no metro fare gates--it would
              >be a public service,
              >just like streets and streetlights. That also means that there will
              >exist no record of your
              >travel through a carfree city. Granted, the metro authority will
              >probably track usage
              >numbers to fine-tune service intervals and train lengths, but that's
              >not a privacy concern.
              >
              >In an auto-centric city, you drive around with an ID number attached
              >to your rear end
              >(license plate). Anyone who sees your car can write down the license
              >plate number and
              >find out a good bit about you. Carfree city? Forget it--you'd have to
              >take pictures and
              >match up the faces with ID cards. A bit harder than looking up license
              >plate numbers,
              >especially since electronic facial recognition seems to be far from mature.
              >
              >I don't like being tracked. Rant over. :-)
              >
              >> >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)
              >>
              >> Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is
              >> information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
              >> coin.
              >> Or the neo-ludites can barter.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              ----- ### -----
              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
            • Todd Edelman
              Joel wrote: How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice? Hey I have an idea in between carrying around salt tablets and having yourself chipped so ATM can read
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 7, 2006
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                Joel wrote: How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?

                Hey I have an idea in between carrying around salt tablets and having
                yourself chipped so ATM can read your identity but it is not about carfree
                so if you want to discuss please email me OFFLIST.

                - T

                ------------------------------------------------------

                Todd Edelman
                International Coordinator
                On the Train Towards the Future!

                Green Idea Factory
                Laubova 5
                CZ-13000 Praha 3

                ++420 605 915 970

                edelman@...
                http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                Green Idea Factory,
                a member of World Carfree Network
              • Matt Hohmeister
                I apologize for the long lines. After a quick check, I found that Firefox for Mac OS X uses Courier for its text entry boxes, making the lines shorter in terms
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 7, 2006
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                  I apologize for the long lines. After a quick check, I found that
                  Firefox for Mac OS X uses Courier for its text entry boxes, making the
                  lines shorter in terms of the number of characters. Safari uses a
                  proportional font, thus allowing >80 characters to be squeezed on a line.

                  I hate needing so many browsers. There are sites that work best in
                  Safari for Mac, Firefox for Mac, Firefox for Windows, AND IE for
                  Windows. So I really can't standardize on one true browser, despite my
                  love of Safari. :-(

                  Now for the tie-in: almost reminds me of people who collect cars, and
                  I don't mean for display. Sedan for driving to work, SUV for shopping,
                  and sports car for going out.

                  I live three blocks from a Budget rental station, and I go there every
                  once in a while if I'm hauling a huge load and actually need the space
                  offered by a van. When my car gives up the ghost, I'm seriously
                  considering paring us down to only my wife's car. We're seldom out at
                  the same time, and for the occasional need for a car, I can run down
                  the street and rent a car. Even if I rent a car twice a month and
                  spend $100 renting cars, it'll be far cheaper than owning a second car.

                  I have a feeling that a modern carfree city will have a significant
                  niche market for the rental of electric walk-behind trucks, either
                  just the truck or the truck with an operator.

                  In any case, since families won't have $40,000 of debt in their
                  garages, they'll easily be able to afford very high quality hand
                  trucks for day-to-day needs with moving equipment. :-)

                  --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Matt,
                  >
                  > Good post. Can you shorten your lines by about 40% so the wrap nicely?
                  > Around 80 characters?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > Joel
                  >
                  >
                  > >I have to give that a big, fat "no". I'm huge on privacy and love how
                  > >cash lets me buy
                  > >products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic
                  > >example is that a
                  > >relative gives you money to buy them cigarettes, you buy them with
                  > >your debit card, and
                  > >you soon get letters stating that your health insurance and home fire
                  > >insurance rates are
                  > >going up. I don't smoke and hate smoking, but you get the point.
                  > >
                  > >Among other reasons, that's one of my reasons to appreciate rail
                  > >transportation:
                  > >anonymity. My wife and I recently went to southern NJ: our Delta
                  > >flight from Tallahassee to
                  > >Philadelphia required photo ID and tickets in our names. But the NJT
                  > >bus route winding
                  > >through the small towns in south Jersey? I bought those tickets with
                  > >cash and no ID. Thus,
                  > >there exists no record that we ever made that trip--and that's the way
                  > >I want it.
                  > >
                  > >When I was in Madrid in 1999, I bought a round-trip high-speed rail
                  > >ticket to Sevilla with
                  > >cash. Again, no record that I ever made that trip--just record that
                  > >the trip was made by
                  > >someone. Haven't been to Europe since 9/11, though, so I'm not sure if
                  > >they require ID for
                  > >inter-city today.
                  > >
                  > >Joel's reference carfree city would have no metro fare gates--it would
                  > >be a public service,
                  > >just like streets and streetlights. That also means that there will
                  > >exist no record of your
                  > >travel through a carfree city. Granted, the metro authority will
                  > >probably track usage
                  > >numbers to fine-tune service intervals and train lengths, but that's
                  > >not a privacy concern.
                  > >
                  > >In an auto-centric city, you drive around with an ID number attached
                  > >to your rear end
                  > >(license plate). Anyone who sees your car can write down the license
                  > >plate number and
                  > >find out a good bit about you. Carfree city? Forget it--you'd have to
                  > >take pictures and
                  > >match up the faces with ID cards. A bit harder than looking up license
                  > >plate numbers,
                  > >especially since electronic facial recognition seems to be far from
                  mature.
                  > >
                  > >I don't like being tracked. Rant over. :-)
                  > >
                  > >> >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)
                  > >>
                  > >> Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All
                  money is is
                  > >> information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols
                  like cash and
                  > >> coin.
                  > >> Or the neo-ludites can barter.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- ### -----
                  > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                  > mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                  >
                • Todd Edelman
                  Matt wrote: ...I hate needing so many browsers... T: I wonder if future energy shortages will make manufacturers create a more standardised system and
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 7, 2006
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                    Matt wrote:

                    ...I hate needing so many browsers...

                    T: I wonder if future energy shortages will make manufacturers create a
                    more standardised system and platform. The "PCC streetcar" of
                    computers....

                    ---

                    ....almost reminds me of people who collect cars...

                    T: Lots of cyclists in the USA especially have several bikes, too and not
                    just for sport. In the Netherlands it is very common for one person to
                    have two bikes (one is for city and one for home town; both are locked in
                    front of train stations - this is easier if you only need two one-speed
                    bikes). Of course it takes 5 or 6 people who use this system to take up
                    the space of one parked car, but Dutch are trying to reduce need for so
                    many bikes with things like <http://www.ov-fiets.nl/engels/index.html>.

                    ---

                    .... I have a feeling that a modern carfree city will have a significant
                    > niche market for the rental of electric walk-behind trucks...

                    T: Forget "niche market", brother: Think "huge market for standardised
                    walk behind trucks". Buy the stock now and give me a percentage later.

                    ---
                    > In any case, since families won't have $40,000 of debt in their
                    > garages, they'll easily be able to afford very high quality hand
                    > trucks for day-to-day needs with moving equipment. :-)

                    T: Hmmm.. what will be the "Mercedes of hand trucks"? Other likelihood is
                    that teenagers and other not yet skilled people will be hired to to
                    delivery again. I think there is a huge possibility for
                    ultracapacitor-powered robot-handtrucks, too, using GPS, Galileo: You just
                    speak your address into it (e.g. "1000 Pennsylvania Carfree Avenue*,
                    please"), and it goes there at walking speed, and teenagers etc are
                    dispatched to take stuff into building. This leaves you free time to help
                    all cities have systems like this.

                    * Address of White House in USA

                    ------------------------------------------------------

                    Todd Edelman
                    International Coordinator
                    On the Train Towards the Future! -
                    "Sustainable, complementary, appropriate mobility in & in-between carfree
                    communities"

                    Green Idea Factory
                    Laubova 5
                    CZ-13000 Praha 3

                    ++420 605 915 970

                    edelman@...
                    http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                    Green Idea Factory,
                    a proud member of World Carfree Network
                  • Robert Madison
                    ... Actually, it s 1600. -- Robert Madison Milwaukee, WI http://community.webshots.com/user/rmadisonwi This message was composed using Mozilla Thunderbird
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 7, 2006
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                      on 2006-Mar-07 17:36 Todd Edelman said the following:
                      > (e.g. "1000 Pennsylvania Carfree Avenue*,
                      > please")
                      >
                      > * Address of White House in USA
                      >

                      Actually, it's 1600.

                      --
                      Robert Madison
                      Milwaukee, WI

                      http://community.webshots.com/user/rmadisonwi
                      This message was composed using Mozilla Thunderbird


                      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
                    • Sean Brooks
                      Point of order: the address of the White House is 1700 Pennsylvania Ave NW, and it s carfree. I work as a firefighter in the District of Columbia (the capital
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 7, 2006
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                        Point of order: the address of the White House is 1700 Pennsylvania Ave NW,
                        and it's carfree.

                        I work as a firefighter in the District of Columbia (the capital city of the
                        US). Today, as part of training on the hazards of Hydrogen storage & use
                        (DC has the only commercial Hydrogen station in the US) I drove a hydrogen
                        fuel cell vehicle. While the version I drove was, in fact, a car, the
                        powerplant itself, or a much smaller version, would be an excellent motor
                        for freight movement within a car-free district. With cryogenic storage of
                        hydrogen, or even high pressure storage, the hazards associated with
                        Hydrogen are less than or equal to other energy storage media. The plant
                        itself is small, light, very very quiet, and only exhausts water vapor.

                        Note that hydrogen is not an energy source, rather, it is an energy storage
                        medium.


                        >From: "Todd Edelman" <edelman@...>
                        >Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Privacy (was: Efficiency and the
                        >automobile)
                        >Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 00:36:25 +0100 (CET)
                        >
                        >Matt wrote:
                        >
                        >...I hate needing so many browsers...
                        >
                        >T: I wonder if future energy shortages will make manufacturers create a
                        >more standardised system and platform. The "PCC streetcar" of
                        >computers....
                        >
                        >---
                        >
                        >....almost reminds me of people who collect cars...
                        >
                        >T: Lots of cyclists in the USA especially have several bikes, too and not
                        >just for sport. In the Netherlands it is very common for one person to
                        >have two bikes (one is for city and one for home town; both are locked in
                        >front of train stations - this is easier if you only need two one-speed
                        >bikes). Of course it takes 5 or 6 people who use this system to take up
                        >the space of one parked car, but Dutch are trying to reduce need for so
                        >many bikes with things like <http://www.ov-fiets.nl/engels/index.html>.
                        >
                        >---
                        >
                        >.... I have a feeling that a modern carfree city will have a significant
                        > > niche market for the rental of electric walk-behind trucks...
                        >
                        >T: Forget "niche market", brother: Think "huge market for standardised
                        >walk behind trucks". Buy the stock now and give me a percentage later.
                        >
                        >---
                        > > In any case, since families won't have $40,000 of debt in their
                        > > garages, they'll easily be able to afford very high quality hand
                        > > trucks for day-to-day needs with moving equipment. :-)
                        >
                        >T: Hmmm.. what will be the "Mercedes of hand trucks"? Other likelihood is
                        >that teenagers and other not yet skilled people will be hired to to
                        >delivery again. I think there is a huge possibility for
                        >ultracapacitor-powered robot-handtrucks, too, using GPS, Galileo: You just
                        >speak your address into it (e.g. "1000 Pennsylvania Carfree Avenue*,
                        >please"), and it goes there at walking speed, and teenagers etc are
                        >dispatched to take stuff into building. This leaves you free time to help
                        >all cities have systems like this.
                        >
                        >* Address of White House in USA
                        >
                        >------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        >Todd Edelman
                        >International Coordinator
                        >On the Train Towards the Future! -
                        >"Sustainable, complementary, appropriate mobility in & in-between carfree
                        >communities"
                        >
                        >Green Idea Factory
                        >Laubova 5
                        >CZ-13000 Praha 3
                        >
                        >++420 605 915 970
                        >
                        >edelman@...
                        >http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain
                        >
                        >Green Idea Factory,
                        >a proud member of World Carfree Network
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Todd Edelman
                        ... T: Ooops. The 1000 number is correct but I meant to say NEW White House : The old one at 1600 is converted to restaurant and visitor centre for outdoor
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 7, 2006
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                          > on 2006-Mar-07 Robert Madison said the following:

                          > Actually, it's 1600.

                          T: Ooops. The 1000 number is correct but I meant to say "NEW White House":
                          The old one at 1600 is converted to restaurant and visitor centre for
                          outdoor Smithsonian exhibit on grounds around White House building:
                          "Museum of the Former Automobile Age"

                          - T

                          ------------------------------------------------------

                          Todd Edelman
                          International Coordinator
                          On the Train Towards the Future!

                          Green Idea Factory
                          Laubova 5
                          CZ-13000 Praha 3

                          ++420 605 915 970

                          edelman@...
                          http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                          Green Idea Factory,
                          a member of World Carfree Network
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