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Re: [carfree_cities] Efficiency and the automobile

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  • Ian Fiddies
    ... I think this is a touch unfair. Yes taxi drivers are aggressive, I ve cycled in enough cites to have a lot of personal experience. Cycle couriers I ve
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 4 2:26 AM
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      > 1. Taxi drivers are among the most dangerous and aggressive
      > Then again, taxi drivers are taxi drivers--about half of
      > them are bastards, the world around.
      >
      > Pedal-powered taxis may be the only workable alternative.
      >

      I think this is a touch unfair. Yes taxi drivers are aggressive, I've cycled
      in enough cites to have a lot of personal experience. Cycle couriers I've
      noticed tend to be a bit on the hard side as well. The only time I've ever
      experienced gridlock was in Varanasi and caused by aggressive rickshaw
      riders refusing to give way and getting the back wheels locked. I would
      suggest that taxi drivers and cycle couriers become aggressive because of
      their working environment. I personally cannot remember the last time I
      verbally abused anyone that wasn't in some way connected with them trying to
      kill me, someone standing near me or my dog, with their car/taxi/bus/bike.



      Taxi drivers are aggressive for exactly the same reason that we are
      proponents of carfree living. They're not all bastards some of them just
      lack our insight and eloquence but I'm 100% sure that they're pissed off at
      the same thing as we are.



      I like the idea about the yellow button. My favourite while cycling is
      slamming my open palm on the roof of the car that just tried to kill me. It
      makes a wonderful noise.



      Ian Fiddies
    • Brett Breitwieser
      Are taxis actually being advocated as an alternative to cars? I thought taxis WERE cars, just a car driven by someone else? Brett
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 4 7:43 AM
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        Are taxis actually being advocated as an alternative to cars?
        I thought taxis WERE cars, just a car driven by someone else?

        Brett
      • Brett Breitwieser
        ... From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ian Fiddies Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 12:54 AM To:
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 4 7:53 AM
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          -----Original Message-----
          From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ian Fiddies
          Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 12:54 AM
          To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Efficiency and the automobile




          "The change from totally auto centric to totally carfree is going to have to
          happen in stages."


          Why?

          Just a matter of making the individual choice that driving a car is "off the
          charts" and using alternatives....

          Brett
        • Matt Hohmeister
          I like the idea of an e-stop button. Same idea as e-stop buttons in gas stations and shop rooms--allow someone to hit a mushroom button to stop a dangerous
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 4 7:30 PM
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            I like the idea of an e-stop button. Same idea as e-stop buttons in gas stations and shop
            rooms--allow someone to hit a mushroom button to stop a dangerous situation. It would
            allow for hijacking, but on the other hand, a lack of e-stop buttons would not stop a
            determined hijacker.

            However, I suspect that vehicle hijacking would not be a problem in Joel's reference city,
            since there would be eyes on the street--you could safely walk around at 0400 if you
            wanted. As for armored cash deliveries, there's metro-freight, and seeing that armored
            trucks typically aren't robbed while waiting a few minutes at a red light or in heavy traffic, I
            doubt that an [electric] armored truck would be vulnerable moving down a carfree street at
            3 mph. (How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)

            What would the restrictions be on walk-behind electric trucks in a carfree city? I'm
            primarily thinking of electric pallet trucks for moving extremely shipping pallets at 3 mph.

            > Zermatt is carfree, but it does have some electric taxis
            > that largely fill the requirements I have proposed. Their
            > drivers, however, are still aggressive enough to be
            > dangerous and annoying. One solution is to put an e-stop
            > switch on all corners of the vehicle. Anyone in the street
            > can slap it, bringing the taxi to an abrupt halt until
            > the driver gets out, gets told off by the annoyed pedestrian,
            > pulls out the e-stop switch, and drives on. It MIGHT work.
            > Then again, taxi drivers are taxi drivers--about half of
            > them are bastards, the world around.
          • J.H. Crawford
            ... Just put the armored cash-carriers on metro-freight (then the banks must be located on the central boulevard, but that s no serious problem). ... No idea.
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 5 2:35 AM
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              >As for armored cash deliveries, there's metro-freight, and
              >seeing that armored
              >trucks typically aren't robbed while waiting a few minutes at a red
              >light or in heavy traffic, I
              >doubt that an [electric] armored truck would be vulnerable moving down
              >a carfree street at
              >3 mph.

              Just put the armored cash-carriers on metro-freight
              (then the banks must be located on the central boulevard,
              but that's no serious problem).

              >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)

              No idea. Anyone?

              >What would the restrictions be on walk-behind electric trucks in a
              >carfree city? I'm
              >primarily thinking of electric pallet trucks for moving extremely
              >shipping pallets at 3 mph.

              It would be nearly impossible to get along without
              these, or something very similar.



              ----- ### -----
              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
            • Brett Breitwieser
              ... Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 5 12:37 PM
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                >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)

                Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is
                information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
                coin.
                Or the neo-ludites can barter.

                Brett
              • Matt Hohmeister
                Here s an interesting policy idea for a carfree city: allow electric vehicles on the condition that they are being escorted by a pedestrian. This is seen today
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 5 12:43 PM
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                  Here's an interesting policy idea for a carfree city: allow electric vehicles on the condition that
                  they are being escorted by a pedestrian. This is seen today in large home-improvement
                  stores, where an employee walks in front of an oncoming forklift to clear the area. I can't
                  imagine a escorted forklift moving 3 mph being a danger. This would also allow for walk-
                  behind trucks carrying heavy or large shipments.

                  Since the streets in a carfree city would be wider than the sidewalks we're used to, we'd
                  actually be more flexible with deliveries. If a family is moving and a 20*8 foot trailer is
                  parked on the edge 30' wide street for a whole day, there's still plenty of space for the
                  pedestrian and bicycle traffic. Ideally, this should be arranged in advance with whatever
                  authority is in charge of the streets, so they can cone-off an area in advance.

                  > >What would the restrictions be on walk-behind electric trucks in a
                  > >carfree city? I'm
                  > >primarily thinking of electric pallet trucks for moving extremely
                  > >shipping pallets at 3 mph.
                  >
                  > It would be nearly impossible to get along without
                  > these, or something very similar.
                • Matt Hohmeister
                  I have to give that a big, fat no . I m huge on privacy and love how cash lets me buy products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 6 7:15 PM
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                    I have to give that a big, fat "no". I'm huge on privacy and love how cash lets me buy
                    products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic example is that a
                    relative gives you money to buy them cigarettes, you buy them with your debit card, and
                    you soon get letters stating that your health insurance and home fire insurance rates are
                    going up. I don't smoke and hate smoking, but you get the point.

                    Among other reasons, that's one of my reasons to appreciate rail transportation:
                    anonymity. My wife and I recently went to southern NJ: our Delta flight from Tallahassee to
                    Philadelphia required photo ID and tickets in our names. But the NJT bus route winding
                    through the small towns in south Jersey? I bought those tickets with cash and no ID. Thus,
                    there exists no record that we ever made that trip--and that's the way I want it.

                    When I was in Madrid in 1999, I bought a round-trip high-speed rail ticket to Sevilla with
                    cash. Again, no record that I ever made that trip--just record that the trip was made by
                    someone. Haven't been to Europe since 9/11, though, so I'm not sure if they require ID for
                    inter-city today.

                    Joel's reference carfree city would have no metro fare gates--it would be a public service,
                    just like streets and streetlights. That also means that there will exist no record of your
                    travel through a carfree city. Granted, the metro authority will probably track usage
                    numbers to fine-tune service intervals and train lengths, but that's not a privacy concern.

                    In an auto-centric city, you drive around with an ID number attached to your rear end
                    (license plate). Anyone who sees your car can write down the license plate number and
                    find out a good bit about you. Carfree city? Forget it--you'd have to take pictures and
                    match up the faces with ID cards. A bit harder than looking up license plate numbers,
                    especially since electronic facial recognition seems to be far from mature.

                    I don't like being tracked. Rant over. :-)

                    > >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)
                    >
                    > Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is
                    > information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
                    > coin.
                    > Or the neo-ludites can barter.
                  • J.H. Crawford
                    Hi Matt, Good post. Can you shorten your lines by about 40% so the wrap nicely? Around 80 characters? Thanks, Joel ... J.H. Crawford
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 7 1:18 AM
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                      Hi Matt,

                      Good post. Can you shorten your lines by about 40% so the wrap nicely?
                      Around 80 characters?

                      Thanks,

                      Joel


                      >I have to give that a big, fat "no". I'm huge on privacy and love how
                      >cash lets me buy
                      >products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic
                      >example is that a
                      >relative gives you money to buy them cigarettes, you buy them with
                      >your debit card, and
                      >you soon get letters stating that your health insurance and home fire
                      >insurance rates are
                      >going up. I don't smoke and hate smoking, but you get the point.
                      >
                      >Among other reasons, that's one of my reasons to appreciate rail
                      >transportation:
                      >anonymity. My wife and I recently went to southern NJ: our Delta
                      >flight from Tallahassee to
                      >Philadelphia required photo ID and tickets in our names. But the NJT
                      >bus route winding
                      >through the small towns in south Jersey? I bought those tickets with
                      >cash and no ID. Thus,
                      >there exists no record that we ever made that trip--and that's the way
                      >I want it.
                      >
                      >When I was in Madrid in 1999, I bought a round-trip high-speed rail
                      >ticket to Sevilla with
                      >cash. Again, no record that I ever made that trip--just record that
                      >the trip was made by
                      >someone. Haven't been to Europe since 9/11, though, so I'm not sure if
                      >they require ID for
                      >inter-city today.
                      >
                      >Joel's reference carfree city would have no metro fare gates--it would
                      >be a public service,
                      >just like streets and streetlights. That also means that there will
                      >exist no record of your
                      >travel through a carfree city. Granted, the metro authority will
                      >probably track usage
                      >numbers to fine-tune service intervals and train lengths, but that's
                      >not a privacy concern.
                      >
                      >In an auto-centric city, you drive around with an ID number attached
                      >to your rear end
                      >(license plate). Anyone who sees your car can write down the license
                      >plate number and
                      >find out a good bit about you. Carfree city? Forget it--you'd have to
                      >take pictures and
                      >match up the faces with ID cards. A bit harder than looking up license
                      >plate numbers,
                      >especially since electronic facial recognition seems to be far from mature.
                      >
                      >I don't like being tracked. Rant over. :-)
                      >
                      >> >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)
                      >>
                      >> Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is
                      >> information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
                      >> coin.
                      >> Or the neo-ludites can barter.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      ----- ### -----
                      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                    • Todd Edelman
                      Joel wrote: How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice? Hey I have an idea in between carrying around salt tablets and having yourself chipped so ATM can read
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 7 6:01 AM
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                        Joel wrote: How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?

                        Hey I have an idea in between carrying around salt tablets and having
                        yourself chipped so ATM can read your identity but it is not about carfree
                        so if you want to discuss please email me OFFLIST.

                        - T

                        ------------------------------------------------------

                        Todd Edelman
                        International Coordinator
                        On the Train Towards the Future!

                        Green Idea Factory
                        Laubova 5
                        CZ-13000 Praha 3

                        ++420 605 915 970

                        edelman@...
                        http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                        Green Idea Factory,
                        a member of World Carfree Network
                      • Matt Hohmeister
                        I apologize for the long lines. After a quick check, I found that Firefox for Mac OS X uses Courier for its text entry boxes, making the lines shorter in terms
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 7 2:34 PM
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                          I apologize for the long lines. After a quick check, I found that
                          Firefox for Mac OS X uses Courier for its text entry boxes, making the
                          lines shorter in terms of the number of characters. Safari uses a
                          proportional font, thus allowing >80 characters to be squeezed on a line.

                          I hate needing so many browsers. There are sites that work best in
                          Safari for Mac, Firefox for Mac, Firefox for Windows, AND IE for
                          Windows. So I really can't standardize on one true browser, despite my
                          love of Safari. :-(

                          Now for the tie-in: almost reminds me of people who collect cars, and
                          I don't mean for display. Sedan for driving to work, SUV for shopping,
                          and sports car for going out.

                          I live three blocks from a Budget rental station, and I go there every
                          once in a while if I'm hauling a huge load and actually need the space
                          offered by a van. When my car gives up the ghost, I'm seriously
                          considering paring us down to only my wife's car. We're seldom out at
                          the same time, and for the occasional need for a car, I can run down
                          the street and rent a car. Even if I rent a car twice a month and
                          spend $100 renting cars, it'll be far cheaper than owning a second car.

                          I have a feeling that a modern carfree city will have a significant
                          niche market for the rental of electric walk-behind trucks, either
                          just the truck or the truck with an operator.

                          In any case, since families won't have $40,000 of debt in their
                          garages, they'll easily be able to afford very high quality hand
                          trucks for day-to-day needs with moving equipment. :-)

                          --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Matt,
                          >
                          > Good post. Can you shorten your lines by about 40% so the wrap nicely?
                          > Around 80 characters?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > Joel
                          >
                          >
                          > >I have to give that a big, fat "no". I'm huge on privacy and love how
                          > >cash lets me buy
                          > >products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic
                          > >example is that a
                          > >relative gives you money to buy them cigarettes, you buy them with
                          > >your debit card, and
                          > >you soon get letters stating that your health insurance and home fire
                          > >insurance rates are
                          > >going up. I don't smoke and hate smoking, but you get the point.
                          > >
                          > >Among other reasons, that's one of my reasons to appreciate rail
                          > >transportation:
                          > >anonymity. My wife and I recently went to southern NJ: our Delta
                          > >flight from Tallahassee to
                          > >Philadelphia required photo ID and tickets in our names. But the NJT
                          > >bus route winding
                          > >through the small towns in south Jersey? I bought those tickets with
                          > >cash and no ID. Thus,
                          > >there exists no record that we ever made that trip--and that's the way
                          > >I want it.
                          > >
                          > >When I was in Madrid in 1999, I bought a round-trip high-speed rail
                          > >ticket to Sevilla with
                          > >cash. Again, no record that I ever made that trip--just record that
                          > >the trip was made by
                          > >someone. Haven't been to Europe since 9/11, though, so I'm not sure if
                          > >they require ID for
                          > >inter-city today.
                          > >
                          > >Joel's reference carfree city would have no metro fare gates--it would
                          > >be a public service,
                          > >just like streets and streetlights. That also means that there will
                          > >exist no record of your
                          > >travel through a carfree city. Granted, the metro authority will
                          > >probably track usage
                          > >numbers to fine-tune service intervals and train lengths, but that's
                          > >not a privacy concern.
                          > >
                          > >In an auto-centric city, you drive around with an ID number attached
                          > >to your rear end
                          > >(license plate). Anyone who sees your car can write down the license
                          > >plate number and
                          > >find out a good bit about you. Carfree city? Forget it--you'd have to
                          > >take pictures and
                          > >match up the faces with ID cards. A bit harder than looking up license
                          > >plate numbers,
                          > >especially since electronic facial recognition seems to be far from
                          mature.
                          > >
                          > >I don't like being tracked. Rant over. :-)
                          > >
                          > >> >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)
                          > >>
                          > >> Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All
                          money is is
                          > >> information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols
                          like cash and
                          > >> coin.
                          > >> Or the neo-ludites can barter.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- ### -----
                          > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                          > mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                          >
                        • Todd Edelman
                          Matt wrote: ...I hate needing so many browsers... T: I wonder if future energy shortages will make manufacturers create a more standardised system and
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 7 3:36 PM
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                            Matt wrote:

                            ...I hate needing so many browsers...

                            T: I wonder if future energy shortages will make manufacturers create a
                            more standardised system and platform. The "PCC streetcar" of
                            computers....

                            ---

                            ....almost reminds me of people who collect cars...

                            T: Lots of cyclists in the USA especially have several bikes, too and not
                            just for sport. In the Netherlands it is very common for one person to
                            have two bikes (one is for city and one for home town; both are locked in
                            front of train stations - this is easier if you only need two one-speed
                            bikes). Of course it takes 5 or 6 people who use this system to take up
                            the space of one parked car, but Dutch are trying to reduce need for so
                            many bikes with things like <http://www.ov-fiets.nl/engels/index.html>.

                            ---

                            .... I have a feeling that a modern carfree city will have a significant
                            > niche market for the rental of electric walk-behind trucks...

                            T: Forget "niche market", brother: Think "huge market for standardised
                            walk behind trucks". Buy the stock now and give me a percentage later.

                            ---
                            > In any case, since families won't have $40,000 of debt in their
                            > garages, they'll easily be able to afford very high quality hand
                            > trucks for day-to-day needs with moving equipment. :-)

                            T: Hmmm.. what will be the "Mercedes of hand trucks"? Other likelihood is
                            that teenagers and other not yet skilled people will be hired to to
                            delivery again. I think there is a huge possibility for
                            ultracapacitor-powered robot-handtrucks, too, using GPS, Galileo: You just
                            speak your address into it (e.g. "1000 Pennsylvania Carfree Avenue*,
                            please"), and it goes there at walking speed, and teenagers etc are
                            dispatched to take stuff into building. This leaves you free time to help
                            all cities have systems like this.

                            * Address of White House in USA

                            ------------------------------------------------------

                            Todd Edelman
                            International Coordinator
                            On the Train Towards the Future! -
                            "Sustainable, complementary, appropriate mobility in & in-between carfree
                            communities"

                            Green Idea Factory
                            Laubova 5
                            CZ-13000 Praha 3

                            ++420 605 915 970

                            edelman@...
                            http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                            Green Idea Factory,
                            a proud member of World Carfree Network
                          • Robert Madison
                            ... Actually, it s 1600. -- Robert Madison Milwaukee, WI http://community.webshots.com/user/rmadisonwi This message was composed using Mozilla Thunderbird
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 7 4:36 PM
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                              on 2006-Mar-07 17:36 Todd Edelman said the following:
                              > (e.g. "1000 Pennsylvania Carfree Avenue*,
                              > please")
                              >
                              > * Address of White House in USA
                              >

                              Actually, it's 1600.

                              --
                              Robert Madison
                              Milwaukee, WI

                              http://community.webshots.com/user/rmadisonwi
                              This message was composed using Mozilla Thunderbird


                              "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
                            • Sean Brooks
                              Point of order: the address of the White House is 1700 Pennsylvania Ave NW, and it s carfree. I work as a firefighter in the District of Columbia (the capital
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 7 4:42 PM
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                                Point of order: the address of the White House is 1700 Pennsylvania Ave NW,
                                and it's carfree.

                                I work as a firefighter in the District of Columbia (the capital city of the
                                US). Today, as part of training on the hazards of Hydrogen storage & use
                                (DC has the only commercial Hydrogen station in the US) I drove a hydrogen
                                fuel cell vehicle. While the version I drove was, in fact, a car, the
                                powerplant itself, or a much smaller version, would be an excellent motor
                                for freight movement within a car-free district. With cryogenic storage of
                                hydrogen, or even high pressure storage, the hazards associated with
                                Hydrogen are less than or equal to other energy storage media. The plant
                                itself is small, light, very very quiet, and only exhausts water vapor.

                                Note that hydrogen is not an energy source, rather, it is an energy storage
                                medium.


                                >From: "Todd Edelman" <edelman@...>
                                >Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Privacy (was: Efficiency and the
                                >automobile)
                                >Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 00:36:25 +0100 (CET)
                                >
                                >Matt wrote:
                                >
                                >...I hate needing so many browsers...
                                >
                                >T: I wonder if future energy shortages will make manufacturers create a
                                >more standardised system and platform. The "PCC streetcar" of
                                >computers....
                                >
                                >---
                                >
                                >....almost reminds me of people who collect cars...
                                >
                                >T: Lots of cyclists in the USA especially have several bikes, too and not
                                >just for sport. In the Netherlands it is very common for one person to
                                >have two bikes (one is for city and one for home town; both are locked in
                                >front of train stations - this is easier if you only need two one-speed
                                >bikes). Of course it takes 5 or 6 people who use this system to take up
                                >the space of one parked car, but Dutch are trying to reduce need for so
                                >many bikes with things like <http://www.ov-fiets.nl/engels/index.html>.
                                >
                                >---
                                >
                                >.... I have a feeling that a modern carfree city will have a significant
                                > > niche market for the rental of electric walk-behind trucks...
                                >
                                >T: Forget "niche market", brother: Think "huge market for standardised
                                >walk behind trucks". Buy the stock now and give me a percentage later.
                                >
                                >---
                                > > In any case, since families won't have $40,000 of debt in their
                                > > garages, they'll easily be able to afford very high quality hand
                                > > trucks for day-to-day needs with moving equipment. :-)
                                >
                                >T: Hmmm.. what will be the "Mercedes of hand trucks"? Other likelihood is
                                >that teenagers and other not yet skilled people will be hired to to
                                >delivery again. I think there is a huge possibility for
                                >ultracapacitor-powered robot-handtrucks, too, using GPS, Galileo: You just
                                >speak your address into it (e.g. "1000 Pennsylvania Carfree Avenue*,
                                >please"), and it goes there at walking speed, and teenagers etc are
                                >dispatched to take stuff into building. This leaves you free time to help
                                >all cities have systems like this.
                                >
                                >* Address of White House in USA
                                >
                                >------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                >Todd Edelman
                                >International Coordinator
                                >On the Train Towards the Future! -
                                >"Sustainable, complementary, appropriate mobility in & in-between carfree
                                >communities"
                                >
                                >Green Idea Factory
                                >Laubova 5
                                >CZ-13000 Praha 3
                                >
                                >++420 605 915 970
                                >
                                >edelman@...
                                >http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain
                                >
                                >Green Idea Factory,
                                >a proud member of World Carfree Network
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Todd Edelman
                                ... T: Ooops. The 1000 number is correct but I meant to say NEW White House : The old one at 1600 is converted to restaurant and visitor centre for outdoor
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 7 6:39 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > on 2006-Mar-07 Robert Madison said the following:

                                  > Actually, it's 1600.

                                  T: Ooops. The 1000 number is correct but I meant to say "NEW White House":
                                  The old one at 1600 is converted to restaurant and visitor centre for
                                  outdoor Smithsonian exhibit on grounds around White House building:
                                  "Museum of the Former Automobile Age"

                                  - T

                                  ------------------------------------------------------

                                  Todd Edelman
                                  International Coordinator
                                  On the Train Towards the Future!

                                  Green Idea Factory
                                  Laubova 5
                                  CZ-13000 Praha 3

                                  ++420 605 915 970

                                  edelman@...
                                  http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                                  Green Idea Factory,
                                  a member of World Carfree Network
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