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RE: [carfree_cities] Efficiency and the automobile

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  • Jason Meggs
    Um, perhaps this is not the list for this discussion although transitions to carfree cities will certainly deal with interfaces to the car-world (as in
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 3 12:03 PM
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      Um, perhaps this is not the list for this discussion although transitions
      to carfree cities will certainly deal with interfaces to the car-world (as
      in Crawford's book) even if there are completely carfree areas.

      So, a bit on taxis and "what is most efficient":

      1) A large part of the environmental cost of any car is its being built at
      all. Most cars sit idle most of the time, hogging lots of space, which is
      also grossly inefficient in myriad ways.

      2) In a busy city, it's likely many taxies are full most of the time.
      There must be studies of this if one wants details. Even if not, the
      industry can with regulation (if the market doesn't already regulate)
      reduce availability and fare search time until a least waste point is
      reached.

      3) A fleet of taxis is much smaller and more centralized than a fleet of
      private automobiles, so it's easier to ensure they're up to code and to
      introduce new fleets that are as energy efficient as possible (not that
      it's easy, just much more possible).

      4) Carsharing has many of these same advantages, and if one had to choose
      between the two, I would strongly expect carsharing to result in fewer
      cars actually in use, although there might be more in existence (sitting
      idle more often), depending on circumstance.

      Jason




      On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Joel Siegel wrote:

      >> I guess the only car that is actually efficient would be a taxi. Later,
      >> Andrew
      >>
      >
      > What's efficient about a taxi, under the criteria used for the 'thought
      > experiment'? The payload-to-vehicle-weight ratio is about the same
      > (assuming one passenger plus the driver, who in this scenario doesn't
      > really count since s/he is not the person we're transporting, except as
      > the pilot of the vehicle). So is the efficiency of the engine (i.e. the
      > chemical reaction of combustion of gasoline/diesel into motive power).
      > Moreover, a taxi must drive an extra distance between fares, adding to
      > the inefficiencies.
      >
      > For that matter, under these criteria, what's efficient about a bus or a
      > train? The best one can say about these modes of transport is that they
      > are "less inefficient" than cars (including taxis).
      >
      > Joel [Siegel]
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      >> From: Andrew Dawson <m82a1_dawson@...>
      >> Sent: Feb 25, 2006 2:36 AM
      >> To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
      >> Subject: RE: [carfree_cities] Efficiency and the automobile
      >>
      >> I guess the only car that is actually efficient would be a taxi. Later,
      >> Andrew
      >>
      >>
      >>> From: "redjenny111" <jhayter@...>
      >>> Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
      >>> To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
      >>> Subject: [carfree_cities] Efficiency and the automobile
      >>> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:03:09 -0000
      >>>
      >>> I've been lurking for a while, but came across a neat web page today,
      >>> and thought I'd try posting it.
      >>> Excerpt:
      >>>
      >>> The Strange Case of the Weighty Lunchbox
      >>>
      >>> a thought experiment:
      >
      > [snip]
      >
      >>> from http://www.ucolick.org/~de/AltTrans/efficiency.html
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Ian Fiddies
      All this talk about taxies, sorry if I sound car-lite again. If a company instead of providing company cars for her employees had one alternative fuel car that
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 3 11:54 PM
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        All this talk about taxies, sorry if I sound car-lite again.

        If a company instead of providing company cars for her employees had one
        alternative fuel car that was shared and all the other personal
        transportation needed in the line of business was inter-modial with the taxi
        as the last link, they could save a lot of cash. One result would be that of
        teaching people whom normally only drive that alternative modes of transport
        exist and can do the job even better.



        The change from totally auto centric to totally carfree is going to have to
        happen in stages. I can't see any other way than by increasing step by step
        the amount of carfree pedestrian space, one or two streets at a time, whilst
        at the same time the total amount of traffic in the rest of the city is both
        calmed and reduced. The taxi can play a key role in this transitional
        period.



        Changing the subject I've just received this link to a PRT project in
        Sweden; http://www.ima.kth.se/practise/upload/skycab.pdf I must admit that I'm
        not really sold on the idea. I have the added problem of one person in my
        FoE group who seems to think this is the future of mass transit, to the
        extent of carrying around a bunt of brochures about these things and showing
        them at every opportunity.



        Question; what is the best argument against these things? Is it just my
        paranoia that they look a bit like cars that puts me off or can PRT be a
        good thing?



        Ian Fiddies
      • Bling Williams
        I don t know if a taxi is effiecient but they are necassary for some people to get around. Usually poeple who don t own cars and can t walk or use the bus. I
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 4 1:15 AM
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          I don't know if a taxi is effiecient but they are necassary for some people to get around. Usually poeple who don't own cars and can't walk or use the bus.
          I use them myself.
          But short of culling the blind and disabled, I'm not sure we could dispense with a taxi like equivelent in our car free world.
          Unless rickshaws really took off as a business venture. I'd prefer a rickshaw. Pollution free and you get to watcha muscled beind ;-)

          Shyrley

          Jason Meggs <jmeggs@...> wrote:
          Um, perhaps this is not the list for this discussion although transitions
          to carfree cities will certainly deal with interfaces to the car-world (as
          in Crawford's book) even if there are completely carfree areas.

          So, a bit on taxis and "what is most efficient":

          1) A large part of the environmental cost of any car is its being built at
          all. Most cars sit idle most of the time, hogging lots of space, which is
          also grossly inefficient in myriad ways.

          2) In a busy city, it's likely many taxies are full most of the time.
          There must be studies of this if one wants details. Even if not, the
          industry can with regulation (if the market doesn't already regulate)
          reduce availability and fare search time until a least waste point is
          reached.

          3) A fleet of taxis is much smaller and more centralized than a fleet of
          private automobiles, so it's easier to ensure they're up to code and to
          introduce new fleets that are as energy efficient as possible (not that
          it's easy, just much more possible).

          4) Carsharing has many of these same advantages, and if one had to choose
          between the two, I would strongly expect carsharing to result in fewer
          cars actually in use, although there might be more in existence (sitting
          idle more often), depending on circumstance.

          Jason




          On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Joel Siegel wrote:

          >> I guess the only car that is actually efficient would be a taxi. Later,
          >> Andrew
          >>
          >
          > What's efficient about a taxi, under the criteria used for the 'thought
          > experiment'? The payload-to-vehicle-weight ratio is about the same
          > (assuming one passenger plus the driver, who in this scenario doesn't
          > really count since s/he is not the person we're transporting, except as
          > the pilot of the vehicle). So is the efficiency of the engine (i.e. the
          > chemical reaction of combustion of gasoline/diesel into motive power).
          > Moreover, a taxi must drive an extra distance between fares, adding to
          > the inefficiencies.
          >
          > For that matter, under these criteria, what's efficient about a bus or a
          > train? The best one can say about these modes of transport is that they
          > are "less inefficient" than cars (including taxis).
          >
          > Joel [Siegel]
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          >> From: Andrew Dawson
          >> Sent: Feb 25, 2006 2:36 AM
          >> To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
          >> Subject: RE: [carfree_cities] Efficiency and the automobile
          >>
          >> I guess the only car that is actually efficient would be a taxi. Later,
          >> Andrew
          >>
          >>
          >>> From: "redjenny111"
          >>> Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
          >>> To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
          >>> Subject: [carfree_cities] Efficiency and the automobile
          >>> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:03:09 -0000
          >>>
          >>> I've been lurking for a while, but came across a neat web page today,
          >>> and thought I'd try posting it.
          >>> Excerpt:
          >>>
          >>> The Strange Case of the Weighty Lunchbox
          >>>
          >>> a thought experiment:
          >
          > [snip]
          >
          >>> from http://www.ucolick.org/~de/AltTrans/efficiency.html
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >



          Yahoo! Groups Links









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        • J.H. Crawford
          ... Actually, if anyone would READ Carfree Cities, they would have noticed that I said: 1. Taxi drivers are among the most dangerous and aggressive 2. I would
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 4 1:50 AM
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            >The change from totally auto centric to totally carfree is going to have to
            >happen in stages. I can't see any other way than by increasing step by step
            >the amount of carfree pedestrian space, one or two streets at a time, whilst
            >at the same time the total amount of traffic in the rest of the city is both
            >calmed and reduced. The taxi can play a key role in this transitional
            >period.

            Actually, if anyone would READ Carfree Cities, they would have
            noticed that I said:

            1. Taxi drivers are among the most dangerous and aggressive
            2. I would like to get rid of taxis entirely
            3. I don't, in fact, think that this is possible
            4. Taxis should be tiny, battery powered, and speed limited
            5. The fares should be outrageously high

            Zermatt is carfree, but it does have some electric taxis
            that largely fill the requirements I have proposed. Their
            drivers, however, are still aggressive enough to be
            dangerous and annoying. One solution is to put an e-stop
            switch on all corners of the vehicle. Anyone in the street
            can slap it, bringing the taxi to an abrupt halt until
            the driver gets out, gets told off by the annoyed pedestrian,
            pulls out the e-stop switch, and drives on. It MIGHT work.
            Then again, taxi drivers are taxi drivers--about half of
            them are bastards, the world around.

            Pedal-powered taxis may be the only workable alternative.

            Regards,



            ----- ### -----
            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
          • Ian Fiddies
            ... I think this is a touch unfair. Yes taxi drivers are aggressive, I ve cycled in enough cites to have a lot of personal experience. Cycle couriers I ve
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 4 2:26 AM
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              > 1. Taxi drivers are among the most dangerous and aggressive
              > Then again, taxi drivers are taxi drivers--about half of
              > them are bastards, the world around.
              >
              > Pedal-powered taxis may be the only workable alternative.
              >

              I think this is a touch unfair. Yes taxi drivers are aggressive, I've cycled
              in enough cites to have a lot of personal experience. Cycle couriers I've
              noticed tend to be a bit on the hard side as well. The only time I've ever
              experienced gridlock was in Varanasi and caused by aggressive rickshaw
              riders refusing to give way and getting the back wheels locked. I would
              suggest that taxi drivers and cycle couriers become aggressive because of
              their working environment. I personally cannot remember the last time I
              verbally abused anyone that wasn't in some way connected with them trying to
              kill me, someone standing near me or my dog, with their car/taxi/bus/bike.



              Taxi drivers are aggressive for exactly the same reason that we are
              proponents of carfree living. They're not all bastards some of them just
              lack our insight and eloquence but I'm 100% sure that they're pissed off at
              the same thing as we are.



              I like the idea about the yellow button. My favourite while cycling is
              slamming my open palm on the roof of the car that just tried to kill me. It
              makes a wonderful noise.



              Ian Fiddies
            • Brett Breitwieser
              Are taxis actually being advocated as an alternative to cars? I thought taxis WERE cars, just a car driven by someone else? Brett
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 4 7:43 AM
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                Are taxis actually being advocated as an alternative to cars?
                I thought taxis WERE cars, just a car driven by someone else?

                Brett
              • Brett Breitwieser
                ... From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ian Fiddies Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 12:54 AM To:
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 4 7:53 AM
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ian Fiddies
                  Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 12:54 AM
                  To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Efficiency and the automobile




                  "The change from totally auto centric to totally carfree is going to have to
                  happen in stages."


                  Why?

                  Just a matter of making the individual choice that driving a car is "off the
                  charts" and using alternatives....

                  Brett
                • Matt Hohmeister
                  I like the idea of an e-stop button. Same idea as e-stop buttons in gas stations and shop rooms--allow someone to hit a mushroom button to stop a dangerous
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 4 7:30 PM
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                    I like the idea of an e-stop button. Same idea as e-stop buttons in gas stations and shop
                    rooms--allow someone to hit a mushroom button to stop a dangerous situation. It would
                    allow for hijacking, but on the other hand, a lack of e-stop buttons would not stop a
                    determined hijacker.

                    However, I suspect that vehicle hijacking would not be a problem in Joel's reference city,
                    since there would be eyes on the street--you could safely walk around at 0400 if you
                    wanted. As for armored cash deliveries, there's metro-freight, and seeing that armored
                    trucks typically aren't robbed while waiting a few minutes at a red light or in heavy traffic, I
                    doubt that an [electric] armored truck would be vulnerable moving down a carfree street at
                    3 mph. (How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)

                    What would the restrictions be on walk-behind electric trucks in a carfree city? I'm
                    primarily thinking of electric pallet trucks for moving extremely shipping pallets at 3 mph.

                    > Zermatt is carfree, but it does have some electric taxis
                    > that largely fill the requirements I have proposed. Their
                    > drivers, however, are still aggressive enough to be
                    > dangerous and annoying. One solution is to put an e-stop
                    > switch on all corners of the vehicle. Anyone in the street
                    > can slap it, bringing the taxi to an abrupt halt until
                    > the driver gets out, gets told off by the annoyed pedestrian,
                    > pulls out the e-stop switch, and drives on. It MIGHT work.
                    > Then again, taxi drivers are taxi drivers--about half of
                    > them are bastards, the world around.
                  • J.H. Crawford
                    ... Just put the armored cash-carriers on metro-freight (then the banks must be located on the central boulevard, but that s no serious problem). ... No idea.
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 5 2:35 AM
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                      >As for armored cash deliveries, there's metro-freight, and
                      >seeing that armored
                      >trucks typically aren't robbed while waiting a few minutes at a red
                      >light or in heavy traffic, I
                      >doubt that an [electric] armored truck would be vulnerable moving down
                      >a carfree street at
                      >3 mph.

                      Just put the armored cash-carriers on metro-freight
                      (then the banks must be located on the central boulevard,
                      but that's no serious problem).

                      >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)

                      No idea. Anyone?

                      >What would the restrictions be on walk-behind electric trucks in a
                      >carfree city? I'm
                      >primarily thinking of electric pallet trucks for moving extremely
                      >shipping pallets at 3 mph.

                      It would be nearly impossible to get along without
                      these, or something very similar.



                      ----- ### -----
                      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                    • Brett Breitwieser
                      ... Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 5 12:37 PM
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                        >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)

                        Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is
                        information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
                        coin.
                        Or the neo-ludites can barter.

                        Brett
                      • Matt Hohmeister
                        Here s an interesting policy idea for a carfree city: allow electric vehicles on the condition that they are being escorted by a pedestrian. This is seen today
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 5 12:43 PM
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                          Here's an interesting policy idea for a carfree city: allow electric vehicles on the condition that
                          they are being escorted by a pedestrian. This is seen today in large home-improvement
                          stores, where an employee walks in front of an oncoming forklift to clear the area. I can't
                          imagine a escorted forklift moving 3 mph being a danger. This would also allow for walk-
                          behind trucks carrying heavy or large shipments.

                          Since the streets in a carfree city would be wider than the sidewalks we're used to, we'd
                          actually be more flexible with deliveries. If a family is moving and a 20*8 foot trailer is
                          parked on the edge 30' wide street for a whole day, there's still plenty of space for the
                          pedestrian and bicycle traffic. Ideally, this should be arranged in advance with whatever
                          authority is in charge of the streets, so they can cone-off an area in advance.

                          > >What would the restrictions be on walk-behind electric trucks in a
                          > >carfree city? I'm
                          > >primarily thinking of electric pallet trucks for moving extremely
                          > >shipping pallets at 3 mph.
                          >
                          > It would be nearly impossible to get along without
                          > these, or something very similar.
                        • Matt Hohmeister
                          I have to give that a big, fat no . I m huge on privacy and love how cash lets me buy products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 6 7:15 PM
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                            I have to give that a big, fat "no". I'm huge on privacy and love how cash lets me buy
                            products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic example is that a
                            relative gives you money to buy them cigarettes, you buy them with your debit card, and
                            you soon get letters stating that your health insurance and home fire insurance rates are
                            going up. I don't smoke and hate smoking, but you get the point.

                            Among other reasons, that's one of my reasons to appreciate rail transportation:
                            anonymity. My wife and I recently went to southern NJ: our Delta flight from Tallahassee to
                            Philadelphia required photo ID and tickets in our names. But the NJT bus route winding
                            through the small towns in south Jersey? I bought those tickets with cash and no ID. Thus,
                            there exists no record that we ever made that trip--and that's the way I want it.

                            When I was in Madrid in 1999, I bought a round-trip high-speed rail ticket to Sevilla with
                            cash. Again, no record that I ever made that trip--just record that the trip was made by
                            someone. Haven't been to Europe since 9/11, though, so I'm not sure if they require ID for
                            inter-city today.

                            Joel's reference carfree city would have no metro fare gates--it would be a public service,
                            just like streets and streetlights. That also means that there will exist no record of your
                            travel through a carfree city. Granted, the metro authority will probably track usage
                            numbers to fine-tune service intervals and train lengths, but that's not a privacy concern.

                            In an auto-centric city, you drive around with an ID number attached to your rear end
                            (license plate). Anyone who sees your car can write down the license plate number and
                            find out a good bit about you. Carfree city? Forget it--you'd have to take pictures and
                            match up the faces with ID cards. A bit harder than looking up license plate numbers,
                            especially since electronic facial recognition seems to be far from mature.

                            I don't like being tracked. Rant over. :-)

                            > >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)
                            >
                            > Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is
                            > information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
                            > coin.
                            > Or the neo-ludites can barter.
                          • J.H. Crawford
                            Hi Matt, Good post. Can you shorten your lines by about 40% so the wrap nicely? Around 80 characters? Thanks, Joel ... J.H. Crawford
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 7 1:18 AM
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                              Hi Matt,

                              Good post. Can you shorten your lines by about 40% so the wrap nicely?
                              Around 80 characters?

                              Thanks,

                              Joel


                              >I have to give that a big, fat "no". I'm huge on privacy and love how
                              >cash lets me buy
                              >products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic
                              >example is that a
                              >relative gives you money to buy them cigarettes, you buy them with
                              >your debit card, and
                              >you soon get letters stating that your health insurance and home fire
                              >insurance rates are
                              >going up. I don't smoke and hate smoking, but you get the point.
                              >
                              >Among other reasons, that's one of my reasons to appreciate rail
                              >transportation:
                              >anonymity. My wife and I recently went to southern NJ: our Delta
                              >flight from Tallahassee to
                              >Philadelphia required photo ID and tickets in our names. But the NJT
                              >bus route winding
                              >through the small towns in south Jersey? I bought those tickets with
                              >cash and no ID. Thus,
                              >there exists no record that we ever made that trip--and that's the way
                              >I want it.
                              >
                              >When I was in Madrid in 1999, I bought a round-trip high-speed rail
                              >ticket to Sevilla with
                              >cash. Again, no record that I ever made that trip--just record that
                              >the trip was made by
                              >someone. Haven't been to Europe since 9/11, though, so I'm not sure if
                              >they require ID for
                              >inter-city today.
                              >
                              >Joel's reference carfree city would have no metro fare gates--it would
                              >be a public service,
                              >just like streets and streetlights. That also means that there will
                              >exist no record of your
                              >travel through a carfree city. Granted, the metro authority will
                              >probably track usage
                              >numbers to fine-tune service intervals and train lengths, but that's
                              >not a privacy concern.
                              >
                              >In an auto-centric city, you drive around with an ID number attached
                              >to your rear end
                              >(license plate). Anyone who sees your car can write down the license
                              >plate number and
                              >find out a good bit about you. Carfree city? Forget it--you'd have to
                              >take pictures and
                              >match up the faces with ID cards. A bit harder than looking up license
                              >plate numbers,
                              >especially since electronic facial recognition seems to be far from mature.
                              >
                              >I don't like being tracked. Rant over. :-)
                              >
                              >> >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)
                              >>
                              >> Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All money is is
                              >> information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols like cash and
                              >> coin.
                              >> Or the neo-ludites can barter.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              ----- ### -----
                              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                            • Todd Edelman
                              Joel wrote: How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice? Hey I have an idea in between carrying around salt tablets and having yourself chipped so ATM can read
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 7 6:01 AM
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                                Joel wrote: How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?

                                Hey I have an idea in between carrying around salt tablets and having
                                yourself chipped so ATM can read your identity but it is not about carfree
                                so if you want to discuss please email me OFFLIST.

                                - T

                                ------------------------------------------------------

                                Todd Edelman
                                International Coordinator
                                On the Train Towards the Future!

                                Green Idea Factory
                                Laubova 5
                                CZ-13000 Praha 3

                                ++420 605 915 970

                                edelman@...
                                http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                                Green Idea Factory,
                                a member of World Carfree Network
                              • Matt Hohmeister
                                I apologize for the long lines. After a quick check, I found that Firefox for Mac OS X uses Courier for its text entry boxes, making the lines shorter in terms
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 7 2:34 PM
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                                  I apologize for the long lines. After a quick check, I found that
                                  Firefox for Mac OS X uses Courier for its text entry boxes, making the
                                  lines shorter in terms of the number of characters. Safari uses a
                                  proportional font, thus allowing >80 characters to be squeezed on a line.

                                  I hate needing so many browsers. There are sites that work best in
                                  Safari for Mac, Firefox for Mac, Firefox for Windows, AND IE for
                                  Windows. So I really can't standardize on one true browser, despite my
                                  love of Safari. :-(

                                  Now for the tie-in: almost reminds me of people who collect cars, and
                                  I don't mean for display. Sedan for driving to work, SUV for shopping,
                                  and sports car for going out.

                                  I live three blocks from a Budget rental station, and I go there every
                                  once in a while if I'm hauling a huge load and actually need the space
                                  offered by a van. When my car gives up the ghost, I'm seriously
                                  considering paring us down to only my wife's car. We're seldom out at
                                  the same time, and for the occasional need for a car, I can run down
                                  the street and rent a car. Even if I rent a car twice a month and
                                  spend $100 renting cars, it'll be far cheaper than owning a second car.

                                  I have a feeling that a modern carfree city will have a significant
                                  niche market for the rental of electric walk-behind trucks, either
                                  just the truck or the truck with an operator.

                                  In any case, since families won't have $40,000 of debt in their
                                  garages, they'll easily be able to afford very high quality hand
                                  trucks for day-to-day needs with moving equipment. :-)

                                  --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Matt,
                                  >
                                  > Good post. Can you shorten your lines by about 40% so the wrap nicely?
                                  > Around 80 characters?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks,
                                  >
                                  > Joel
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >I have to give that a big, fat "no". I'm huge on privacy and love how
                                  > >cash lets me buy
                                  > >products in relative anonymity in an era of data mining. My classic
                                  > >example is that a
                                  > >relative gives you money to buy them cigarettes, you buy them with
                                  > >your debit card, and
                                  > >you soon get letters stating that your health insurance and home fire
                                  > >insurance rates are
                                  > >going up. I don't smoke and hate smoking, but you get the point.
                                  > >
                                  > >Among other reasons, that's one of my reasons to appreciate rail
                                  > >transportation:
                                  > >anonymity. My wife and I recently went to southern NJ: our Delta
                                  > >flight from Tallahassee to
                                  > >Philadelphia required photo ID and tickets in our names. But the NJT
                                  > >bus route winding
                                  > >through the small towns in south Jersey? I bought those tickets with
                                  > >cash and no ID. Thus,
                                  > >there exists no record that we ever made that trip--and that's the way
                                  > >I want it.
                                  > >
                                  > >When I was in Madrid in 1999, I bought a round-trip high-speed rail
                                  > >ticket to Sevilla with
                                  > >cash. Again, no record that I ever made that trip--just record that
                                  > >the trip was made by
                                  > >someone. Haven't been to Europe since 9/11, though, so I'm not sure if
                                  > >they require ID for
                                  > >inter-city today.
                                  > >
                                  > >Joel's reference carfree city would have no metro fare gates--it would
                                  > >be a public service,
                                  > >just like streets and streetlights. That also means that there will
                                  > >exist no record of your
                                  > >travel through a carfree city. Granted, the metro authority will
                                  > >probably track usage
                                  > >numbers to fine-tune service intervals and train lengths, but that's
                                  > >not a privacy concern.
                                  > >
                                  > >In an auto-centric city, you drive around with an ID number attached
                                  > >to your rear end
                                  > >(license plate). Anyone who sees your car can write down the license
                                  > >plate number and
                                  > >find out a good bit about you. Carfree city? Forget it--you'd have to
                                  > >take pictures and
                                  > >match up the faces with ID cards. A bit harder than looking up license
                                  > >plate numbers,
                                  > >especially since electronic facial recognition seems to be far from
                                  mature.
                                  > >
                                  > >I don't like being tracked. Rant over. :-)
                                  > >
                                  > >> >(How is cash delivered to ATMs in Venice?)
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Use electron-based transactions (debit cards, etc) instead. All
                                  money is is
                                  > >> information. No need for heavy and burdonsome exteranl symbols
                                  like cash and
                                  > >> coin.
                                  > >> Or the neo-ludites can barter.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- ### -----
                                  > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                                  > mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                                  >
                                • Todd Edelman
                                  Matt wrote: ...I hate needing so many browsers... T: I wonder if future energy shortages will make manufacturers create a more standardised system and
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 7 3:36 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Matt wrote:

                                    ...I hate needing so many browsers...

                                    T: I wonder if future energy shortages will make manufacturers create a
                                    more standardised system and platform. The "PCC streetcar" of
                                    computers....

                                    ---

                                    ....almost reminds me of people who collect cars...

                                    T: Lots of cyclists in the USA especially have several bikes, too and not
                                    just for sport. In the Netherlands it is very common for one person to
                                    have two bikes (one is for city and one for home town; both are locked in
                                    front of train stations - this is easier if you only need two one-speed
                                    bikes). Of course it takes 5 or 6 people who use this system to take up
                                    the space of one parked car, but Dutch are trying to reduce need for so
                                    many bikes with things like <http://www.ov-fiets.nl/engels/index.html>.

                                    ---

                                    .... I have a feeling that a modern carfree city will have a significant
                                    > niche market for the rental of electric walk-behind trucks...

                                    T: Forget "niche market", brother: Think "huge market for standardised
                                    walk behind trucks". Buy the stock now and give me a percentage later.

                                    ---
                                    > In any case, since families won't have $40,000 of debt in their
                                    > garages, they'll easily be able to afford very high quality hand
                                    > trucks for day-to-day needs with moving equipment. :-)

                                    T: Hmmm.. what will be the "Mercedes of hand trucks"? Other likelihood is
                                    that teenagers and other not yet skilled people will be hired to to
                                    delivery again. I think there is a huge possibility for
                                    ultracapacitor-powered robot-handtrucks, too, using GPS, Galileo: You just
                                    speak your address into it (e.g. "1000 Pennsylvania Carfree Avenue*,
                                    please"), and it goes there at walking speed, and teenagers etc are
                                    dispatched to take stuff into building. This leaves you free time to help
                                    all cities have systems like this.

                                    * Address of White House in USA

                                    ------------------------------------------------------

                                    Todd Edelman
                                    International Coordinator
                                    On the Train Towards the Future! -
                                    "Sustainable, complementary, appropriate mobility in & in-between carfree
                                    communities"

                                    Green Idea Factory
                                    Laubova 5
                                    CZ-13000 Praha 3

                                    ++420 605 915 970

                                    edelman@...
                                    http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                                    Green Idea Factory,
                                    a proud member of World Carfree Network
                                  • Robert Madison
                                    ... Actually, it s 1600. -- Robert Madison Milwaukee, WI http://community.webshots.com/user/rmadisonwi This message was composed using Mozilla Thunderbird
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 7 4:36 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      on 2006-Mar-07 17:36 Todd Edelman said the following:
                                      > (e.g. "1000 Pennsylvania Carfree Avenue*,
                                      > please")
                                      >
                                      > * Address of White House in USA
                                      >

                                      Actually, it's 1600.

                                      --
                                      Robert Madison
                                      Milwaukee, WI

                                      http://community.webshots.com/user/rmadisonwi
                                      This message was composed using Mozilla Thunderbird


                                      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
                                    • Sean Brooks
                                      Point of order: the address of the White House is 1700 Pennsylvania Ave NW, and it s carfree. I work as a firefighter in the District of Columbia (the capital
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 7 4:42 PM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Point of order: the address of the White House is 1700 Pennsylvania Ave NW,
                                        and it's carfree.

                                        I work as a firefighter in the District of Columbia (the capital city of the
                                        US). Today, as part of training on the hazards of Hydrogen storage & use
                                        (DC has the only commercial Hydrogen station in the US) I drove a hydrogen
                                        fuel cell vehicle. While the version I drove was, in fact, a car, the
                                        powerplant itself, or a much smaller version, would be an excellent motor
                                        for freight movement within a car-free district. With cryogenic storage of
                                        hydrogen, or even high pressure storage, the hazards associated with
                                        Hydrogen are less than or equal to other energy storage media. The plant
                                        itself is small, light, very very quiet, and only exhausts water vapor.

                                        Note that hydrogen is not an energy source, rather, it is an energy storage
                                        medium.


                                        >From: "Todd Edelman" <edelman@...>
                                        >Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                                        >To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Privacy (was: Efficiency and the
                                        >automobile)
                                        >Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 00:36:25 +0100 (CET)
                                        >
                                        >Matt wrote:
                                        >
                                        >...I hate needing so many browsers...
                                        >
                                        >T: I wonder if future energy shortages will make manufacturers create a
                                        >more standardised system and platform. The "PCC streetcar" of
                                        >computers....
                                        >
                                        >---
                                        >
                                        >....almost reminds me of people who collect cars...
                                        >
                                        >T: Lots of cyclists in the USA especially have several bikes, too and not
                                        >just for sport. In the Netherlands it is very common for one person to
                                        >have two bikes (one is for city and one for home town; both are locked in
                                        >front of train stations - this is easier if you only need two one-speed
                                        >bikes). Of course it takes 5 or 6 people who use this system to take up
                                        >the space of one parked car, but Dutch are trying to reduce need for so
                                        >many bikes with things like <http://www.ov-fiets.nl/engels/index.html>.
                                        >
                                        >---
                                        >
                                        >.... I have a feeling that a modern carfree city will have a significant
                                        > > niche market for the rental of electric walk-behind trucks...
                                        >
                                        >T: Forget "niche market", brother: Think "huge market for standardised
                                        >walk behind trucks". Buy the stock now and give me a percentage later.
                                        >
                                        >---
                                        > > In any case, since families won't have $40,000 of debt in their
                                        > > garages, they'll easily be able to afford very high quality hand
                                        > > trucks for day-to-day needs with moving equipment. :-)
                                        >
                                        >T: Hmmm.. what will be the "Mercedes of hand trucks"? Other likelihood is
                                        >that teenagers and other not yet skilled people will be hired to to
                                        >delivery again. I think there is a huge possibility for
                                        >ultracapacitor-powered robot-handtrucks, too, using GPS, Galileo: You just
                                        >speak your address into it (e.g. "1000 Pennsylvania Carfree Avenue*,
                                        >please"), and it goes there at walking speed, and teenagers etc are
                                        >dispatched to take stuff into building. This leaves you free time to help
                                        >all cities have systems like this.
                                        >
                                        >* Address of White House in USA
                                        >
                                        >------------------------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        >Todd Edelman
                                        >International Coordinator
                                        >On the Train Towards the Future! -
                                        >"Sustainable, complementary, appropriate mobility in & in-between carfree
                                        >communities"
                                        >
                                        >Green Idea Factory
                                        >Laubova 5
                                        >CZ-13000 Praha 3
                                        >
                                        >++420 605 915 970
                                        >
                                        >edelman@...
                                        >http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain
                                        >
                                        >Green Idea Factory,
                                        >a proud member of World Carfree Network
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Todd Edelman
                                        ... T: Ooops. The 1000 number is correct but I meant to say NEW White House : The old one at 1600 is converted to restaurant and visitor centre for outdoor
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 7 6:39 PM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          > on 2006-Mar-07 Robert Madison said the following:

                                          > Actually, it's 1600.

                                          T: Ooops. The 1000 number is correct but I meant to say "NEW White House":
                                          The old one at 1600 is converted to restaurant and visitor centre for
                                          outdoor Smithsonian exhibit on grounds around White House building:
                                          "Museum of the Former Automobile Age"

                                          - T

                                          ------------------------------------------------------

                                          Todd Edelman
                                          International Coordinator
                                          On the Train Towards the Future!

                                          Green Idea Factory
                                          Laubova 5
                                          CZ-13000 Praha 3

                                          ++420 605 915 970

                                          edelman@...
                                          http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                                          Green Idea Factory,
                                          a member of World Carfree Network
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