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Re: [carfree_cities] Any body else hear of this guy?

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  • Andrew Dawson
    ... I m just being honest and calling a spade a spade. ... Civil libertarians are different from libert-aryan fascists. One is for individual freedom, the
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 22, 2006
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      Todd Edelman wrote:
      >Andrew Dawson <m82a1_dawson@...> wrote: [...] When I was on the
      >Transport Policy list I dealt with this libertaryan fascist named John
      >Finley Scott [...]
      >
      >
      > *** Well, first of all, it probably is a good idea to start a
      >deconstruction of this guy's ideas without labeling him.

      I'm just being honest and calling a spade a spade.

      > In the page http://www.labreform.org/anti-car.html and the links at the
      >bottom of that page, Scott and friends write about "vehicular cycling".
      >
      > He talks about sharing the roads, and I agree with, to a point - mainly
      >that separate bikepaths in cities should not be created at the expense of
      >making it so cyclists cant use the existing roads (e.g. I am very critical
      >of Greenway organizations taking money from automobile companies), but
      >beyond that point the reality of:
      >
      > * cars being much, much heavier than bikes
      > * wanting to ride slow, even slower than many cyclists
      > etc
      > * the huge amount of space need for roads for cars...
      >
      > makes me disagree with him.
      >
      > In this article - and in the links I mention - the huge increase in
      >cycling in places like Groningen and smaller increases in other places
      >which are partly a result of automobile bans and separate facilities, the
      >insane congestion everywhere, the environmental and health damage done by
      >cars, the deaths caused by cars hitting each other because of their very
      >encumbered nature, and the oncoming lack of easy energy - among other
      >things - are completely ignored.
      >
      > Also, he perpetuates the idea that streets are mainly for mobility...
      >rather than as a place in between dwellings for people to interact, and
      >where mobility is a useful function only when it increases interaction in
      >both quantity AND quality.
      >
      > But this is typical of... Libertarians(!), it seems: To ignore things
      >like the huge amount of money spent on highways and the related external
      >costs... and their near-religion of "this is what people want" as if
      >fulfillment of human desire - no matter how uneducated - was always the
      >right course for the universe.

      Civil libertarians are different from libert-aryan fascists. One is for
      individual freedom, the other are for death camps and gulags.

      Real Conservatives, conserve the environment! Till later, Andrew Dawson
    • Andrew Dawson
      ... I find him to be a hypocrite, he says he s a railfan, but hates passenger trains. When it comes to cycling it s just recreational, nothing utilitarian. He
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 22, 2006
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        Jym Dyer wrote:
        >=v= John Finley Scott is well-known amongst California
        >cyclists. He's a cohort of the better-known John Forester
        >and shares with him
        >
        > (1) an inflexible stance regarding the principles of
        > "Effective Cycling(R)" (which is Forester's trademarked
        > and stringent version of vehicular cycling),
        >
        > (2) some time in courtrooms as an "expert" on bicycling
        > matters that have not always led to conditions good for
        > bicycling, and
        >
        > (3) a penchant for nasty flamewars on email lists and in
        > other electronic fora.
        >
        >Indeed, a number of Forester dogmatists are nasty online, to
        >the extent that their communication style has earned the title,
        >"Invective Cycling."
        >
        >=v= In 1999, after a large cross-posted flamewar across a bunch
        >of cycling.org/cyclery.com email lists, many of those lists
        >switched to a moderation-only policy, and the Foresterites made
        >their home on the exclusive "Chainguard" list. Sometimes they
        >make forays out onto other lists (most recently the Silicon
        >Valley Bicycling Coalition list) and get thrown off.
        >
        >=v= Since Effective Cycling(R) is predicated on being on the
        >roads with cars and acting exactly like them (with a blind eye
        >to rampant motorist lawbreaking, that is), carfree movements
        >are perceived as a threat. That's the context for that website
        >Todd dug up. So it's no surprise that JFS is making common
        >cause with Libertoonian types who think cars are somehow less
        >a use of public sector resources than other modes.
        > <_Jym_>

        I find him to be a hypocrite, he says he's a railfan, but hates passenger
        trains. When it comes to cycling it's just recreational, nothing
        utilitarian. He calls a lot of cities "OPACs" Obsolete Pre-Automotive Cities
        and is favour of destroying them so more freeways can be built. He seems to
        be a real sociopath, almost like some who feels bad that Hitler lost WWII.

        Till later, Andrew Dawson
      • Dan Kliman
        ... I don t mean to play PC police here, but this is the second Nazi reference today in regards to Vehicular Cycling advocates. Scum that they are, they don t
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 22, 2006
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          --- Andrew Dawson <m82a1_dawson@...> wrote:
          > He seems to
          > be a real sociopath, almost like some who feels bad
          > that Hitler lost WWII.

          I don't mean to play PC police here, but this is the
          second Nazi reference today in regards to Vehicular
          Cycling advocates. Scum that they are, they don't
          rise to the level of evil of Nazis.

          Maybe I'm a bit sensitive given my family's history
          and the fact that I live in a hub for Holocaust
          Denial, but can we chill on the Nazi crap?

          Thanks,

          Dan

          http://www.geocities.com/dankliman
          http://www.sorryeverybody.com
        • Richard Risemberg
          ... And this here Jewboy s a Vehicular Cycling advocate. Bikepaths and the like just give the auto-crats excuses to keep devoting the preponderance of
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 22, 2006
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            On Jan 22, 2006, at 8:50 PM, Dan Kliman wrote:

            > --- Andrew Dawson <m82a1_dawson@...> wrote:
            >> He seems to
            >> be a real sociopath, almost like some who feels bad
            >> that Hitler lost WWII.
            >
            > I don't mean to play PC police here, but this is the
            > second Nazi reference today in regards to Vehicular
            > Cycling advocates. Scum that they are, they don't
            > rise to the level of evil of Nazis.
            >
            And this here Jewboy's a Vehicular Cycling advocate. Bikepaths and
            the like just give the auto-crats excuses to keep devoting the
            preponderance of mobility resources to cars, cars, cars, cars, while
            relegating all efficient modes to second-class or (worse)
            recreational status. And myself, I'd hardly like to see bicycling be
            the cause of yet more pavement....

            For the record, I ride LA's rush hour traffic twice a day, five days
            a week...in Hollywood. If you want to see what it's like here's a
            link to an article (commissioned, & paid for, BTW) I wrote about it:

            http://www.sprol.com/?p=292#comments

            In dense cities that still have cars, there are two kinds of
            bicyclists: vehicular cyclists, and the kind that load their bikes
            into the SUV to drive them to a bike path on Sundays. (BTW, the
            average population density in LA is the same as in NY's Five Boroughs.)

            Rick
            --
            Richard Risemberg
            http://www.rickrise.com
            http://www.newcolonist.com
            http://www.living-room.org
          • Andrew Hitchcock
            ... Thanks for saying this Andrew. I was concerned with the previous statement because I consider myself libertarian for two important reasons: I believe in
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 22, 2006
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              > Civil libertarians are different from libert-aryan fascists. One is for
              > individual freedom, the other are for death camps and gulags.
              >
              > Real Conservatives, conserve the environment! Till later, Andrew Dawson

              Thanks for saying this Andrew. I was concerned with the previous
              statement because I consider myself libertarian for two important
              reasons: I believe in the individual rights that both parties seem happy
              to destroy, and (relevant to this list), I believe government
              subsidizing roads and freeways is very detrimental to all aspects of life.

              Don't blame libertarians just because some are hypocrites.

              Andrew
            • Doug Salzmann
              ... Omeyn. Also, the more the cagers have to share the roads with other (slower) modes, the less advantageous operating a multi-zillion-pound iron monster
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 22, 2006
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                On Sun, 22 Jan 2006, Richard Risemberg wrote:

                > And this here Jewboy's a Vehicular Cycling advocate. Bikepaths and
                > the like just give the auto-crats excuses to keep devoting the
                > preponderance of mobility resources to cars, cars, cars, cars, while
                > relegating all efficient modes to second-class or (worse)
                > recreational status. And myself, I'd hardly like to see bicycling be
                > the cause of yet more pavement....

                Omeyn.

                Also, the more the cagers have to share the roads with other (slower)
                modes, the less "advantageous" operating a multi-zillion-pound iron
                monster will seem.

                (None of this is meant to imply that John Forester and Company aren't
                royal pains in the ass -- they are, and they are almost totally
                humorless.)

                Streets are for kids to play in.

                And, now, back to carfree cities...


                -Doug (who has too many broken parts to cycle right now, but who
                gleefully whacks 'em with his stick if they don't behave properly)




                --
                Doug Salzmann
                P.O. Box 1007
                Larkspur, CA 94977
              • Simon Baddeley
                Dear Richard I am with you on integration without needing to be libertarian about it. My preference is for the naked street option
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 23, 2006
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                  Dear Richard

                  I am with you on integration without needing to be libertarian about it. My
                  preference is for the "naked street" option

                  http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/EnvironmentalServices/general/ex_road_project.asp

                  "The Exhibition Road proposals aim to restore pedestrian priority to the
                  street. This will not be accomplished by excluding vehicles. Instead, the
                  streetscape will be designed differently to reduce the speed of vehicles to
                  below 20 m.p.h. At such speeds drivers engage far more with pedestrians and
                  with their surroundings in general. This leads to a better balance of the
                  relative priorities of vehicle and foot traffic. This approach reconciles
                  the often-competing demands of traffic engineering and urban design. It
                  should produce a streetscape of far higher quality and utility."

                  See also the point that it's all about eye contact speeds:



                  Hardly libertarian but at the same time encouraging humans to negotiate the
                  space among themselves so long as no-one goes faster than 20mph - which
                  seems reasonable given the average urban speed of traffic (in London) is
                  about 7mph.

                  S



                  > From: Richard Risemberg <rickrise@...>
                  > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:12:42 -0800
                  > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Any body else hear of this guy?
                  >
                  >
                  > For the record, I ride LA's rush hour traffic twice a day, five days
                  > a week...in Hollywood. If you want to see what it's like here's a
                  > link to an article (commissioned, & paid for, BTW) I wrote about it:
                  >
                  > http://www.sprol.com/?p=292#comments
                  >
                  > In dense cities that still have cars, there are two kinds of
                  > bicyclists: vehicular cyclists, and the kind that load their bikes
                  > into the SUV to drive them to a bike path on Sundays. (BTW, the
                  > average population density in LA is the same as in NY's Five Boroughs.)
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • J.H. Crawford
                  Hi All, ... amen, and right now Your irritated moderator ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 23, 2006
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                    Hi All,

                    >Maybe I'm a bit sensitive given my family's history
                    >and the fact that I live in a hub for Holocaust
                    >Denial, but can we chill on the Nazi crap?

                    amen, and right now

                    Your irritated moderator


                    ----- ### -----
                    J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                    mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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